Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...

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847 days, 14 hours, 33 minutes ago
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strangelove007
Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)?
https://www.marchforscience.com/
847 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Me not, but it is a good thing.
847 days, 4 hours, 42 minutes ago
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sir_render
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Science isn't political enough? Orwell would be proud.
847 days, 4 hours, 23 minutes ago
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drgirasol
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Define science?
847 days, 4 hours, 2 minutes ago
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ridgerunner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
*AHEM*

Global Warming(tm) Causes the drought in California.

Global Warming(tm) Causes the flooding in California.

Global Warming(tm) Causes the hurricanes.

Global Warming(tm) Causes the lack of hurricanes.

Global Warming(tm) Causes record heat.

Global Warming(tm) Causes record cold.

Global Warming(tm) Causes _______(fill in the blank).

Global Warming(tm) Causes (the exact opposite of blank fill in).

Power and money grab. That's it.
847 days, 4 hours, 0 minutes ago
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ridgerunner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
If you are SO hot on everything being devastating to the planet, why are you on a computer instead of living in a cave?
847 days, 4 hours, 0 minutes ago
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drgirasol
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
ok, now we know what politics is...
847 days, 3 hours, 53 minutes ago
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ridgerunner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Like AlGore. HE can have a $1,500.00 a month electric bill, but everyone else should be living in a mud hut. And they would try to find something wrong with that.

0bama goes to some third world craphole and tells them that for the good of the planet they can't get air conditioning or some such crap.

f-ing communist hypocrites.
847 days, 3 hours, 50 minutes ago
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drgirasol
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
oo kk then.. bye bye
847 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes ago
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ridgerunner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
:)
847 days, 0 hours, 47 minutes ago
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ridgerunner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
“Ultimately, if you think about all the youth that everybody has mentioned here in Africa, if everybody is raising living standards to the point where everybody has got a car and everybody has got air conditioning, and everybody has got a big house, well, the planet will boil over -- unless we find new ways of producing energy."




Just sayin'
846 days, 23 hours, 58 minutes ago
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sir_render
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Define science?

Healthy skepticism of consensus.

Do you know what 99% right is? 100% wrong!
846 days, 15 hours, 5 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Sir_Render>> Do you know what 99% right is? 100% wrong!

I think (at least for 99%) this kind of reasoning is what the march is against.
Sorry, Sir, but you delivered a too good example. ;)
846 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes ago
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the green knight
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
I believe an important aspect of science is that it deals with facts and theories on how these facts might relate to each other. Every theory is temporary until a better one if formulated so there is no ultimate truth. It is fun though that science, which is a collection of self-admitted falsehoods, is seen as the truth.

I do object though to this search for truth and understanding is used and undermined for less enlightened purposes i.e. self interest, manipulation, propaganda and economic manipulation.
846 days, 11 hours, 28 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Ridgerunner due to people with little scientific knowledge the definition has been changed to Climate Change from Global Warming.

You see as people with very little scientific knowledge took the fact that one day a certain place was colder than normal and then say that the planet was not getting warmer so we can continue to pollute the planet as much as possible and have no thoughts for the planet or the effects it will have on our children or our children’s children.

Yes climate change is a complex thing. You do get variations from year to year. Places will get a cold year compared to previous years.

But you have to look at the BIG picture.

The weather is affected by natural effects such as solar flares, the planets rotation around the sun, changes in water vapour due to natural events, El Nino, volcanic eruptions, cows farting etc.

But you have to balance this against humans effect of digging up solid and liquid hydrocarbons from deep under the ground (or closer to the surface in recent years) and throwing it into the atmosphere along with dirt and particles that effect heat retention, destroying the natural habitat for human needs, concreting over large surfaces of the planet, polluting large areas of the planet with unnatural materials that are slowly killing the food chain.

But over the past few decades the global temperature of the whole planet has been increasing in an unnatural speed.

Yes certain people will find a place on the planet and shout that on this same day last year it is a few degrees warmer than last so the planet cannot be warming. But ignore the evidence that the majority of the rest of the planet is experiencing the warmest years since recording started.

They say on average the whole planet is experiencing increasing temperatures. So they take the low temperatures found by the sceptics and add it to all the other temperatures from around the world and still get a bigger number than the last year!

You have to look at the BIG picture. Those who say that we can do anything to the planet and it will have no effect I think are idiots or just looking at the wrong web sites and only thinking of the short term.

You have to look long term. In a few years’ time when your children are having children. Will there be any ice on the poles? Will most of the cities that were at our current sea level be under several meters of water? Will the fish that are caught need to be treated to remove all the plastic and toxic material before you can eat them?

You have to have goals to reduce pollution of all types. Because if you do not attempt to reduce the pollution by using other currently less popular means you have no compulsion to change and it will never happen. So the planet becomes even more toxic to the life that populates it.
846 days, 11 hours, 26 minutes ago
View psydev's profile
psydev
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Knowledge is what lets you detect bullshit.
846 days, 11 hours, 6 minutes ago
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olegboleg
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
in addition i would like to add:

science does not contradict religion in general.
It simply has a more reasonable explanation for several events/phenomenons then some religions have claimed to explain. I am not a religios man, but i am not saying there is no god, simply becasue i havent found one yet.

science has diverse views to several topics, including climate change. thats the one of the good things. you can review the facts, form a theory and try to proof it. Sometimes there are several theories, and scientist will keep checking until theys "know" which describes it best.

science does not claim to know how things work. This is somethign many people fail to understand. scientist try to find models that describe the world better and predict outocmes better then we can do it today. Its a journey, not THE TRUTH
(exmaple: stone, water, earth and fire -> undevidables/atoms -> subatomic particles)


science isnt good or bad. it is generates knowledge. what we do with it, can be "good" or "bad". (similar to religion. Some people who are very religios help many poor people in need of help. some religios people go to war because they god is the only one. religion isnt good or bad. what you amke of it is.)

cheerio
olegboleg
846 days, 9 hours, 38 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Well put, Oleg.
846 days, 9 hours, 30 minutes ago
View n@ndus's profile
n@ndus
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Same here, Oleg ;-) (Gnerphk was faster)

And, when the subject is already touched, I'd like to promote one of my absolute favourite movies, which contains an nice theory how faith / religion works:

Constantine (Keanu Reeves; 2005)
846 days, 9 hours, 15 minutes ago
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celestial
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Science; loosely, I'd suggest that its the pursuit of greater understanding, through the systematic study of all sorts of structures evident (and hypothesized) within the physical universe. Obviously, it must include the study of cause and effect.

Valuable evidence can be distilled from practical observation and experimentation. Theories can be tested, refined and evaluated. Useful conclusions can even be drawn. Practical benefits often follow.


For me, the universe seems worthy of this sort of serious attention. Then again, it's often said that ignorance is bliss.
846 days, 8 hours, 37 minutes ago
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belisarius
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Olegbpleg's comments are conducive to stating some rather obvious
points:

First of all, the concept of good/bad derives from religion. All religion groups conceive a morality system which defines good and bad based on their cultural experience and which shapes its notion of divinity to suit that system. God is always created in the image of the men who worship Him/Her. In other words the notion of what is good and what is bad is a religious/moral construct, varying from place to place and from time to time, so one cannot logically speak of religion as being good or bad because each religion defines its practices and beliefs as being good and all that is exclusive of itself as being more or less bad. Outside of that construct, there is no good or bad, just as in nature there is no good or bad. A comet strikes Earth and wipes out 90% of all species, but the concept of it being good or bad has no application: it simply is.

Historically, monotheistic religions are particularly intolerant of rival religions because they posit there is only one god/GOOD - theirs - whereas polytheistic religions (if not persecuted) are more inclined to accommodate other approaches to God/GOOD. The Greeks/Romans even built temples to the Unknown God fearing they had left someone out. One can even imagine a Buddhist saying to his Judaeo/Christian/Muslim friend: I'm a GOOD Buddhist, but I think it would be GOOD to be a J/C/M as well. The friend is likely to think this is a BAD idea, unless the Buddhist gives up his Buddhism.

It is probable from archaeological evidence that civilization as we know it has its origins in religious thought, that all sentient seeking after truth begins as religious wondering, as in looking up at the stars and imagining anthropomorphic gods at work; the earliest architectural works appear to have been erected as part of this religious search for the truth of things, with a priestly caste inevitably stepping in to improvise the answers. Olegboleg would likely agree that survival of the human species is unquestionably GOOD, but there are Christian fundamental religions that look forward to destruction of humanity as a GOOD thing, when the Chosen GOOD are swept up to Heaven on a cloud, leaving the rest of us (the BAD) behind. THey're even willing to expedite this process by pushing for political events that herald the end of the world. Ascribing this manifestation as being good or bad is beside the point.

What does distinguish religion is its insistence on FAITH as being the essential element of knowing good/bad. The religious practitioner must ultimately forego reliance on his own native intellect as the arbiter of truth and accept the tenets of his religion, based not on logical understanding, but unquestioning acceptance. He must believe, as a good Catholic does, that the wafer placed on his tongue by his priest transforms into the body of Christ, despite all scientific evidence to the contrary.

What distinguishes Science, as Olegboleg suggests, is that it transcends the concept of good/bad and eschews Faith as a ground for truth. Historically, it substituted philosophical/mathematical LOGIC as the starting point from which the truth is approached (albeit never fully grasped), as in Descartes' cogito ergo sum. Like Descartes, the true scientist believes nothing which cannot be logically proven by scientific means; to the extent that he/she does, the less scientist them.

Science originated as the handmaiden of philosophy (the love of wisdom), as the means by which philosophers (those who had crept outside Plato's allegoric cave, if you like) could accumulate evidence about the natural world and come to understand it. Scientists still aspire to PhD's but Science is now thought to have virtually superceded philosophy. In doing so, it parts company from paying heed to the concept that good/bad can be logically derived from moral philosophy, i.e., as in affirming that GOOD has to do with a sentient species surviving and evolving on a Star Trek kind of mission (coming to know itself and its universe). A true scientist is capable of saying as one did before Alamogordo, that if the nuclear chain reaction continues beyond the bomb's fissionable materials, it will only cause the loss of a minor planet.

As Oppehheimer had it, "now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." True, Science is neither good nor bad by its very nature, but this lack of philosophical grounding is in itself a challenge to the survival of our species, perhaps even the planet, as Steven Hawking recently acknowledged.



846 days, 5 hours, 16 minutes ago
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olegboleg
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Belisarius

that was an interesting if somewhat hard read (but thats mostly because its late and i am no native speaker :) ). I have a few question and remarks, if i may.

I am curious to know why you think the concept of good and bad derives from religion. I have not read anything on that matter so their might be a great explanation that i am unaware of. I would think that before there where (real) religions, people thought: "If i am jumping down that mountain, that will be bad for me." or "if we help each other, this will be good for the whole tribe".

Buddhism isnt really a religion, techically. There is no god and no "believe system". Its more a way of life. A bit like beeing a vegitarian. I actualy know people that are christians and live a buddhistic life. But your totally right. Most religions wont allow you beieng in another, too. Just like most politcal parties wont allow you beeing member of another partie as well.

and, yes i agree :D

maybe i totaly misunderstoof this paragraph. if so, please elaborate:
your last paragraph is founded on the idea that "Science is now thought to have virtually superceded philosophy." This an interesting theory. I am rocking forth and back (and sidewards) between:
a) it cant superseed it, there is/was no hirachy.
b) the job of science is not to do good (or bad), but to generate knowledge. similar as to to the mineworkers goal is not to create a weapon or build a wheelchair. He simply produces material for others to forge something.
c) this is making scientist sound arrogant (and of course some are. but some actors are too and so are some car sales men) and i dont think science is arrogant. (though i do get how one might think so, because the more you know, the more like is it that you seem arrogant to others)

Dont get me wrong: i do agree that it would be great if there was some kind of supervision for "what do we do with this knowledge". And yes, our scientific advances have become so great, that on the one hand for exmaple they allow us to talk to anyone in the world right now right away, live! Or to dip into the knowledge of human kind, from anywhere for anyone at virtually now cost. But it also allows to do (form the view of future of the human kind) bad things. The Big Bomb isnt even the biggest threat (imho). I am much more afraid of Artifical Intelligence to be honest.
There have always been humans at almost any stage that where looking more then sceptical to any scientific discovery. So maybe they where always right. We should ahve stoped at some point. but maybe thats the natural fear humans have for the unknown and uncertain. i cant tell.

cheerio
olegboleg


846 days, 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
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hays
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Sience a good thing. Thats why we are here in a virtual cave.
On the global warming thing, its just a guess but how much time and effort you need to kill almost all life on planet by global warming you can have a imagination here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Traps.
The man can just press the red button to shortcut this, and why we dont worrie and march to prevent this?
846 days, 2 hours, 12 minutes ago
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belisarius
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Hi Olegboleg,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Starting with the notion of good/bad, I would argue that a dog, for instance, is as capable as you or I of intuiting that jumping over a cliff is prejudicial to its well-being, but that does not mean that it declines to jump from a sense of moral cognition. Its behavior has nothing to do with the notion of good/bad- only with survival-linked instinct and experience. Likewise its pack mentality has nothing to do with a perception of good, but flows from instinctive and learned behavior arising over thousands of generations: packs that work together survive. On the other hand, moral judgement in the historical sense requires sentience (the capacity to self-think) and proceeds from the notion that a superior being has laid down a code of laws which we are bound to follow. One offends the deity by breaking that code and pleases him/her by adhering. Likely this learned awareness will be enforced by priests and priest-kings who claim to represent the law-giving deity. One is bad if one jumps over a cliff not because one hurts oneself but only if the god sanctions doing so. The historical record clearly indicates that lawgivers like Moses and Hammurabi performed this role for their societies on behalf of deities they claimed to represent and their legitimacy was a function of being seen to represent the god/gods. I should add that morality has been subjected by the onslaught of philosophy and science to a great many inroads and abridgements. Scientific concepts like abortion and evolution are bitterly contested because they contravene the moral code most humans have lived by.

I'm not sure why you deny Buddhism the status of a religion. Etymologically, religion means "to bind" and I would define any group bound together by a common set of faith-derived beliefs as a religion. The key word being "faith".I definitely consider Buddhism as a religion in the fullest sense of the word, giving rise to a sense of morality (as in "do not do to others what you would not have them do unto you"), but it matters not for the example I used whether Buddhism meets your definition of a religion or not. I simply used it to indicate how much more flexible a polytheist is likely to be in tolerating other points of view than are people taught that there is only one true God. You may well respond that Burmese Buddhists are presently exhibiting extreme intolerance toward Muslim compatriots, but I would argue that this not an innate aspect of Buddhism but derives from fear of being overwhelmed by less-tolerant religions. Muslims believe in tolerating "people of the book" and have historically been much better at tolerating Christians and Jews than the converse, but the Koranic precept does not extend to "bad" polytheist religions.

As for scientists being arrogant, it is not germane to the point I was making whether they are arrogant or not. Certainly they have a lot to be arrogant about, and human nature being what it is, some are bound to be so. Einstein, for instance, does not seem to have been arrogant at all, whereas Sir Isaac Newton epitomised arrogance even while "standing on the shoulders" of forebears.

The classic scientific attitude is that philosophy consists of nothing more than speculation (important only because it gave rise to science) and bears the same relationship to true science as does astrology to astronomy. Personally I regret this demotion of philosophy, because I view it as the one human pursuit which can anchor science. Clearly, faith-based religion cannot do so; no scientist worth his salt can give precedence to faith-based thought any more than Copernicus could be expected to do so. A speculative logical schema is required to guide scientific inquiry if it is not to supercede us with robotics or self-extinction; instead philosophy has tended in this last century to fragment into linguistic quibbles. Plato Descartes and Kant would be appalled.

I don't agree that scientific inquiry can or should be halted, no matter how many Trumps come along. We simply have to learn how to temper science with speculative thought that ponders the reality that lies beneath and beyond the existential nature of things. Scientific inquiry is by definiton limited to existential space-time. Indeed, it does not presently admit that anything lies beyond the existential sphere, but I think its own advances are bringing it to a cusp where it will have to look outside the cave.

As Hegel wrote: that which is real does not exist, and that which exists is not real.
846 days, 0 hours, 16 minutes ago
View dragondejhi's profile
dragondejhi
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Hi Beli and Oleg;

I see you two have put a lot of thought into this. And it is a good off-NU topic discussion... and even civil ;-) Thanks for that.

I would argue that good/bad does not completely derive from religion. Certainly all religions have what they consider as good and bad. But I think you are more to the point that it may stem more from a cultural concept or even a human nature basis then from religion. You can argue that religion can define the culture/laws? In a manner, maybe? So can many things.

Of course I have been accused of living with rose colored glasses on because I believe that the vast majority of people are good. In my job I had responded to thousands of people who were having the worst day of their life. In fact I saw many good people do bad things. Many even tried to justify it or why they did something, but they still knew it was bad. There was still the guilt or sadness. Many were not religious at all. I believe it is the basic human nature of what they defined as good or bad. Just like I have seen many people do very justified actions and still felt bad for it.

Some could argue it was God in them even if they didn't believe in God? Who knows. But it may have been more on what you touched as the cultural thing if not the basic human nature, whatever that is? You can be of any religion and still have the same feelings about good/bad. I have seen this as well. It did not matter the religion.

The same goes with religion and science. You can be a very religious person and still believe in the advancement of science, the fact of climate change and the need to do something about it, medical research, and reaching for the stars to see what's out there. Just as someone can believe abortion is bad and believe in a humans' right to choose, or believe in that both the Republicans and Democrats have common causes in the USA.... Please don't scream about that last one ;-)

I also don't believe that one sect of people are more arrogant then others. I teach disaster response night classes and I have had many doctors, lawyers and even real scientists in the classes and they all seem to care, even if some show it in different ways. Like all of us, they struggled with doing, not believing good/bad. And many believed in God and science. I believe that arrogance falls more into the human nature area then the field of work. Although ones interest and tendencies certainly lead towards their field of work. lol.... I think we have seen know-it-alls/ coincident people who lack self-confidence in ALL fields of work, and what others consider the good honest people working right besides them.

No matter what, science will proceed and advance just as the the teachings of God will (or Buddha, or vegetarianism). As they both should. Both can fall victim to a little over zealous passion and both will constantly be criticized by one person or the other. But this is not necessarily a bad thing either. It keeps us grounded and causes most to reflect not in if we could do something, but should do something. Just as your notes have caused me to reflect.

Now... off to see what Sheldon has to say about this in the Big Bang Theory...;-)
845 days, 23 hours, 50 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Glorious discussion. THIS is why I come here.

I'm going to keep reading, but there's a couple of specific interjections I'd like to make. I hope this doesn't derail the entire thread.

@Dragondejhi -- I've met people who are completely amoral, others who are purely self-centered with no visceral realization that people they meet matter, and a couple who are simply evil. But all have been, if not good, at least human at heart. How's that? :o)

@Belisarius and Oleg -- Science and philosophy are two different tools designed to answer two different types of question. Science is that which helps us determine what is; philosophy is that which helps us determine what ought to be. While modern philosophy is, largely, crap... still, it's a valid area for research, discussion, and yes, speculation.

At least, that's my thoughts on the matter.

---

And, just in general, this is what I wrote about the March.
https://gnerphk.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/the-power-of-one-person/
845 days, 23 hours, 39 minutes ago
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edward jellico
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
People were practicing science before marches and some people chose to practice science with their families than waste time on feel good spectacles with obvious political agendas in the name of "science".

As if science and all scientists were truly neutral arbitrators with no political leanings or self serving interests.

No one against discovery of the Universe that was either created or always existed (take your pick of either improbable possibilities) should be taken seriously.

#strawmanmarchagainstenemiesofscience
845 days, 23 hours, 7 minutes ago
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ghostrider
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
buy high an dry land, while its cheap, sell coastal sea view before it sinks, figure where the new coast will be at worst case an buy, sooner or later all the high density populations on coasts will have to evac, seeing that scenario in part of world now , look at New Orleans let a class 3 huricane hit New York an thats likely, an buy any land with a good strong fresh water spring, an theres probably a lot never seen water except from faucet ,drinkable lol
845 days, 17 hours, 28 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Ghostrider: Some land is still rising and will for a long time... the weight of the glaciers melting was sudden and the crust is still rebounding up from the removed weight.
___

@Martinr: Global warming is a theory. Climate change is long term changes in statistical properties of a climate system. This recent conflation of the terms is absolute madness.
___

Climate change science has us pegged at increasing thermal average with natural forcing and human forcing at about 50/50... for the time being anyhow. That is why global warming as a term fell out of favour, since even if humans 100% stop greenhouse emissions the planet will still continue to warm as it was before we even invented the wheel.

My solution... nuke Mecca. All that concrete dust thrown into the atmosphere will help reflect EMR back into space cooling the planet. Plus the all the emissions generated by Muslims travelling to Mecca won't be an issue anymore.

Little known fact, the larger the nuclear detonation, the less radioactive fallout there is.


845 days, 12 hours, 2 minutes ago
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shughes111
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Everyone missing the real objective. Politics!

The world is about power and who has it and the issue is being politicized to manipulate the population to support whatever narrative gives it to them.

Narrative: The world will end without our (those in power) leadership to defend it. The people are whipped into a frenzy over it just like a religion.

The (Climate Change) narrative may be true, it may not, but that's not the point. The point is to create a global issue by which those in power can control the people.

Our biggest threat is not Global Warming but Global tyranny.

845 days, 10 hours, 53 minutes ago
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belisarius
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Gnerphk

Discussion does not appear to be of general interest to Planets gamers, so I'll confine myself to taking gentle issue with your assertion that philosophy and science are "two different tools designed to answer two different types of questions. Science is that which helps us determine what is; philosophy is that which helps us determine what ought to be."

I would hazard the observation that true philosophy is not just a tool, that it is much broader in scope than the confines of so-called moral philosophy, i.e., answering the question of what ought to be. Philosophy is ultimately concerned with "being" or "isness" in all its aspects, and while science may be thought of as the most scapel-like of all tools for exploring the existential world, philosophy transcends such a definition, being in its highest form "self thinking thought", the mode by which the philosophic mind discovers itself set against the backdrop of its universe. Indeed, some philosophers think of it as the process by which the universal mind becomes self-aware.
845 days, 10 hours, 17 minutes ago
View cinnamon's profile
cinnamon
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Gnerphk and @Belisarius

I'd disagree with you. Science and philosophy are not two separate fields (or tools as @gnerphk put it), I'd argue that science is actually a subset of philosophy.

This is not justification of that belief, but there is a reason why we get a doctor of philosophy in many fields, including the scientific fields.
845 days, 10 hours, 2 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Interesting observations, gentlemen.

You're not wrong, of course; the lines between science and philosophy do blur. And yet, it would be proper for me to say that -- and I'll revise my statement a bit -- "Philosophy can be thought of as that which helps us determine what ought to be."

For the sake of discussion and differentiation, I can declare that as the difference in order to make it a subgroup. I suppose it would be proper (and a bit ironic) to call it "Big-P Psychology" as opposed to the more general term.

:o)
845 days, 6 hours, 38 minutes ago
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ridgerunner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Jeez text wall central.

No complicated dissertations are necessary.

The climate is constantly changing. This is normal for the planet. Once upon a time, there was an Ice Age, saber tooth tigers and wooly mammoths.

There were no Exxon Valdez's to warm the planet out of the Ice Age.

And what caused the planet to cool into the Little Ice Age?

People are now, for political purposes and for power and money, trying to convince people that ONLY the temperature on such and such date is the correct one.

The planet warms, the planet cools. There is no way puny humans can stop it.
845 days, 6 hours, 16 minutes ago
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drgirasol
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
so what are you saying? Because some people are greedy, all other people should ignore their cumulative effect on the environment?
845 days, 6 hours, 14 minutes ago
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ghostrider
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
if we killed all trees an vegetation with some method of designed warefare, if we pumped toxins into the ground to get hard to reach oil, if we placed refineries an nuclear reactors on the coastline where higher sea levels might be a problem , if the shear weight of our big citys an the water behind our big dams were enough to cause earthquakes where they didnt exist, if all our natural water was unsafe someone would profit by selling bottled water , if our air was dangerous to breath somebody would profit sellin bottled air, face it we are the only living creature on earth that could help tend to the planets survival even to the point of possibly destroying an inbound planet killing asteroid , but no , our greeds prevent it , an weve failed at the 1 mission we know we had , to tend a garden, we failed , weve got half the world hooked on cigarettes while trying to get our own to stop, weve invested more money through goverment designing new desease to kill folks in combat than, than curing diabetes, weve failed an we deserve what we get
845 days, 5 hours, 36 minutes ago
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chemaz
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
That's the problem, a lot of people waiting for a mighty god to do their job, instead of doing it themselves...
845 days, 4 hours, 54 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Ridgerunner do you read any evidence other than ones in denial?

You say the human race has zero effect on the planet?

It has not made thousands of animal species extinct so effecting thousands of more lifecycles?

It has no changed the flora species on great proportions of the planet surface for its own needs?

And is not filling up the lands and seas with man made unnatural waste?

Yes the climate changes. It changes slowly. And as it changes slowly the planet adjusts slowly. If it changes fast the planet does not have chance to change and crops that would grow in a certain area do not grow so well. Fish move away from certain waters as its warmer than they can stand.

The outcome is you may have to get used to eating different vegetables after they find out what can grow better. After we have a few years of bad crops with food shortages and only the richer countries being able to afford the higher prices.

The fish may not be able to move to colder waters due to differences in water depths and availability of their food sources. So they die out and it takes time for other fish to take over (its happening in my part of the world).

In the past few hundred years or so it has decided to accelerate beyond the normal.

Dramatic change is bad for everyone as it leads to food shortages and if you are going to die do you want to take it from someone else first.

If you would care to so some research you will note that the majority of scientists agree that man is influencing the changes by a considerable amount.

In theory if we looked at the natural cycles of the ice ages we should be heading towards a ice age. Not the opposite.

So yes the climate changes. It changes slowly without the human race effecting it.

And if you actually look at the maths of what the human race uses to survive and actually compare it to natural processes you will realise we are effecting the planet in a big way.
845 days, 4 hours, 7 minutes ago
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chemaz
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Well spoken, sadly no one that needs reading you is going to read you, at least not with an open mind
845 days, 3 hours, 34 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Chemaz, I'm pretty sure that there's nobody out there with an open mind unless it's also an empty mind. That's part of the human condition.

---

With regard to climate change, I'd like to quote a (fictional) conversation between Ian Malcolm and John Hammond.

“...The planet has survived everything, in its time. It will certainly survive us.”

“Just because it lasted a long time doesn’t mean it is permanent. If there was a radiation accident…”

“Suppose there was. Let’s say we had a bad one, and all the plants and animals died, and the earth was clicking hot for a hundred thousand years. Life would survive somewhere – under the soil, or perhaps frozen in Arctic ice. And after all those years, when the planet was no longer inhospitable, life would again spread over the planet. The evolutionary process would begin again. It might take a few billion years for life to regain its present variety. And of course it would be very different from what it is now. But the earth would survive our folly. Life would survive our folly. Only we think it wouldn’t.”

“Well, if the ozone layer gets thinner–”

“There will be more ultraviolet radiation reaching the surface. So what?”

“Well. It’ll cause skin cancer.”

Malcolm shook his head. “Ultraviolet radiation is good for life. It’s powerful energy. It promotes mutation, change. Many forms of life will thrive with more UV radiation.”

“And many others will die out,” Hammond said.

“…Life on earth can take care of itself. In the thinking of a human being, a hundred years is a long time. A hundred years ago, we didn’t have cars and airplanes and computers and vaccines… It was a whole different world. But to the earth, a hundred years is nothing. A million years is nothing. This planet lives and breathes on a much vaster scale. We can’t imagine its slow and powerful rhythms, and we haven’t got the humility to try. We have been residents here for the blink of an eye. If we are gone tomorrow, the earth will not miss us.”

“Let’s be clear. The planet is not in jeopardy. We are in jeopardy. We haven’t got the power to destroy the planet – or to save it. But we might have the power to save ourselves.”

(There's rather more preserved at my site; it's worth a read.
https://gnerphk.wordpress.com/1990/05/04/ian-malcolm-on-science-by-michael-crichton/
Better yet, read the original. "Jurassic Park" had a print run in the hundreds of thousands; if you can't find a copy, you're not trying.)
845 days, 3 hours, 31 minutes ago
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bacchus
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
The dismissive claim that humans can have no effect on the planet is to misunderstand the scale of our changes. Even 2000 years ago we were making substantial alterations to the landscape and environment. We are currently releasing pollution (of a variety of different types) in scales large enough to impact the environment. Just one easily observed example is the high usage of Nitrogen fertilizers in commercial farming, this has been causing massive algae blooms in our oceans. Did algae blooms happen in the past from time to time? Yes, they did. Are they happening more frequently and in larger sizes than before due to the mass volumes of nitrogen flowing into the oceans from our rivers? Absolutely.

These claims of giant conspiracies are ridiculous. Scientists do not receive money for saying something. They get grants to research topics. These grants are given based upon the validity of their scientific hypotheses. They don't pocket grant money, they must spend it on their research topic. There are audits performed to ensure the money has been spent on appropriate items (this is why you will see scientists driving 15 year old Volvos and Suburus and not a new Ferrari). Scientific researchers aren't pressured into backing a politically-based idea for fear of losing their jobs either, that is why Tenure exists. A researcher can put forth the most insane ideas and you can't fire them for their ideas. So let me assure you, if 97% of climate scientists support the theory that GHG emissions are causing climate changes faster than normal (and 97% do support this) then they are doing so because in their review of the evidence they feel strongly that this is the case. The only people publishing material on any topic who are susceptible to external pressure are those who work for private organizations (like companies or non-profits) on either side of the issue. (I'm referring to both Oil Companies and Environmental Organizations).

If a researcher actually had clear evidence that CO2 has no effect on the global environment then that person would most certainly publish this. Far from losing their job, they could turn the accepted science on its' ear and possibly even win the Nobel Prize. That is the real goal that scientists are interested in.

Just a clear caveat to head off the ad hominem attacks that this will likely attract. I actually work for a company in the O&G industry, so I'm not some anti-oil hippy (hell my family has been in the oil industry for generations) and both of my parents are actually scientific researchers (biochemistry, not climate), so I actually do know precisely what I'm talking about when I talk about grants and tenure.


My personal view on all of this is that eventually (probably in the relatively near future) some bright spark will figure out an inexpensive and easy way to pull Carbon out of the air and create Carbon Nanotubes with it. The industrial applications that are possible with these structures are very promising and so will drive an industry of pulling carbon from the air, and we will swing the other direction, with a severe drop in atmospheric CO2. But I could be wrong about that, I'm just basing that guess on my experience of history and how humanity has implemented technology over the years.
845 days, 3 hours, 15 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
With respect, @Bacchus, and in full agreement with your major point:

CO2 and methane drive the mechanisms that lead to climate change. Methane per percent concentration is, as I understand it, roughly eight times as impactful. Using the search "Methane And CO2 Drive Climate Change" gave me forty papers. Some named other chemicals such as SO2 and low-atmosphere ozone, certain of which can have truly nasty effects.

Public perception is of a simplification of this, because public perception is fed by pre-chewed pre-digested media soundbites. Laws are based on perception, and laws tend to concentrate on CO2.

One of the best articles I read recently was about the impact of high-yield nuclear testing, particularly underground testing, on the global climate. The projection was pretty horrific, and the conclusion was that there's nothing we can do to stop it. It was founded in (apparently) good science and passed initial peer review -- after which it was labeled "Classified" and boxed up for fifty years.

And, in the face of this, we institute a carbon tax on industry in certain countries and not in others. As a direct consequence of this tax, the air in Beijing has become unbreathable.

Is it any wonder that there are those who doubt the science?
845 days, 3 hours, 8 minutes ago
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bacchus
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Gnerphk, the science is pretty good. The media, on the other hand, is useless as tits on a bull. Unfortunately the bulk of the populace are ignorant and not interested in actually understanding the facts of the situation (and yes, there are a number of GHG, not just CO2).

I have a much more relaxed attitude on this, I (perhaps naively) think that through science and engineering we will come up with a reasonable solution to maintain our environment in such a way as to keep humans alive. I could be very wrong about that, but that's what I'm going with.

I agree with your earlier post, the Earth is in no danger. It will still be here regardless of what we do. Life on Earth probably will survive most things that we do (there are some things that could end life) but the real thing in danger is humanity.
845 days, 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Oh aye -- it's the media, or rather the public attitude toward facts, that is the real problem here. But it's still reasonable that people would distrust the science on the subject -- because we know full well it's inevitably manipulated by business and government and ideology before we see it.
845 days, 2 hours, 16 minutes ago
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hentagon
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
I just want to invade planets and blow up starships.
844 days, 19 hours, 12 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Ridgerunner: Technically were still in an Ice Age.
___

@Hentagon: Pretend were pondering adding something to the game that causes high population worlds to increase in temperature. :P
___

@Gnerphk: Technically the main greenhouse gas is water vapour.

The only reason in my opinion to worry about CO2, is lake and ocean acidification... and to a less degree acid rain effects on human buildings (they figured out how to grow limestone on statues/buildings so we can already repair them but it ain't cheap).

Already costs a fortune to pH balance our lakes... and has already transformed regions of ocean making it lovely for jellyfish and toxic algae blooms. Already making dogs sick in southern Florida. Chinese love jellyfish so the upside is they are eating them and the US now has an abundant supply to provide them.
__

@Bacchus: Try 10,000 years ago... when humans began burning forests down to farm, this ended up cooling the planet slightly. Forest actually absorb more infrared energy and warm the planet more so than prairies and grasslands which reflect most back into space, and in addition the smoke helps reflect EMR back into space in the short-term.


"Bacchus: They don't pocket grant money, they must spend it on their research topic."

Actually there is significant fraud and misconduct in the scientific research community... even government funded ones... and we tend to not find out until decades later. The main problem appears to be punitive punishment against whistle-blowers making it a bad idea to expose fraud, and the breakdown of peer-reviewing which used to keep scientists inline with the truth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_misconduct#United_States

I work with carbon-nano-tech and it is an impressive material... but I'm speculating the future material is spider-silk, a protein they already have genetically modified goats to produce in their milk.
___

@Martinr: "In theory if we looked at the natural cycles of the ice ages we should be heading towards a ice age. Not the opposite."

There isn't really a natural cycle of ice ages... a pattern yes, cycle not so much... and were still coming OUT of an ice age, were no where near heading into one.

The position of the continents is the main factor... the effects warm water circulating from the equator, which if that leads to ice sheet formation... further cools the planet by reflecting EMR... resulting in more snow and ice sheet formation reflecting EMR and thus 'snowballing' into an ice age.

CO2 levels have always followed after climate change, not the cause of climate change... although always playing a role of course, just no where near a significant one. This is often used as proof we don't need to worry about CO2 levels... but really that is absurd logic, it just means naturally CO2 is dependent on other factors.
844 days, 1 hours, 9 minutes ago
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ridgerunner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
One of the speakers at the march:

"I am a gay, transgender man."

My. What an interesting qualification.
843 days, 22 hours, 54 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
With respect, @Ridgerunner -- Why would I care? What possible difference would it make to me what he is or does?

Some of the points that you've raised here have merit. For example, southern California has existed in drought conditions for most of the past sixty years. By some strange coincidence, sixty years ago is when they drained the natural reservoir for the region, Tulare Lake, and diverted the lakewater for crop irrigation. You can blame California's droughts on a lot of things, but global warming ain't one.

That's the science (simplified). But people with a political axe to grind and complete ignorance of the facts -- and intolerant of opposition -- always seem to blame the big scary Global Warming (or, now, Manmade Climate Change). And anyone who expresses disagreement must certainly be ignorant, intolerant, hateful, and anti-science.

Which quite evidently is not true.

So far so good. But if we look at idiots misusing a term or twisting science to fit their agendas and then WE BLAME SCIENCE, that makes us idiots too. Now, I can't tell you with any degree of certainty just how much the earth is cooling or warming and why, but I know some people that have done some impressive work on the subject, and when they talk to me about it, I listen.

And when I'm listening to an expert, I don't care if they're bright purple, have three heads, and dress up in fuzzy costumes before they have sex with a cauliflower named Fred Astaire. If they're an expert, I listen.

(Granted, I might not shake hands after, depending. I'm not a cauliflower fan.)

Of course, if someone gets up to talk social issues at a science march, I might get annoyed. But then, I didn't attend, so I guess I wouldn't know.
843 days, 21 hours, 42 minutes ago
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mongo
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Gnerphk

I think you made @Ridgerunner 's point with your first line..."Why would I care? What possible difference would it make to me what he is or does?"
843 days, 21 hours, 41 minutes ago
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von jess
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
What the? This isn't the Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare forum at all!

(Great discussion guys, this game really is the Star Fleet Battles of video games ;) )
843 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Hrrrm. Interesting perspective, @Mongo. So in other words, "Why would anyone introduce themselves that way at a Science March?" Not, "Why would a gay transsexual man be talking about science?"

Now that I state it that way, it seems obvious. Hunh.
843 days, 20 hours, 41 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Watch the video for his speech at this site; http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/04/23/queer-trans-man-speaks-at-the-march-for-science/

"Data tells stories" Uh... not really. :|

"I'm a Public health geek" Ummm, ok. :\


"Science is objective, but science is not neutral." Woah now, we actually WANT science to be neutral, it is impossible because perception is subjective... this guy is not supporting the scientific method at all.


Mentions hell at a 'March for Science' rally and equates science to morality... uh... ok... >:/

From a medical and scientific perspective... there is no such thing as a transgendered person. Gender expression and gender identity are not scientific fact.

I'm fine with people doing whatever they want to their bodies, there are people that are modifying their bodies into animals such as cats.

However, they are not a real cat... same with people attempting to emulate the opposite sex... out genes determine our biological sex, there is no escaping that reality.

If you try to tell me what to do, were gonna have a problem. If I decide to call a woman a Tonka truck, you can't stop me... just because you modify your body doesn't all of sudden grant special powers over me.

I realize others are clearly biased here one way or the other... but some of us in the middle think both sides are retarded.
843 days, 20 hours, 36 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
I think the crowd cheering about the bird feeder kinda paints the intelligence level of the crowd... I guess they like bird welfare that traps them into toxic polluted environments full of invasive species predators like cats.
843 days, 20 hours, 35 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Well, there is a percentage of humanity where genetics don't actually determine sexuality but instead hormones, and that's not even considering the XXY and XXX variants et cetera. There's other factors as well, such as whether psychology counts as a science. (I assert no opinions.)

In general, however, I have to agree with your premise, @Glyn. It's more complex, of course; everything always is.

But for me, the overriding caveat is this: It would be ill-mannered for me to attempt to explain to another person who they really are.
843 days, 20 hours, 23 minutes ago
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psydev
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
I think as VGA Planets players, we all know the solution to global warming: put an Eros Class Research vessel in orbit!
843 days, 20 hours, 14 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Gnerphk: Yeah Wikipedia in other words (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation_in_humans_

Unfortunately modern society has gone the direction separating the two sexes into 'classes'. Female-only competitions now being overrun by males that have modified themselves to pass as females is forcing society to think a bit about this topic moreso than ever before.

I'm of the opinion there should be no discrimination at all... so female-only and male-only competitions should be illegal. I'm not a fan of age discrimination either.

We are going in the direction of making more laws to cover such topics, rather than less laws and less discrimination.

Canada's new laws basically allow anyone into any bathroom or changing room... I've been taking advantage of it... lets be honest, the men's washroom is nasty and I've seen enough old man balls for one lifetime thank you very much.
843 days, 7 hours, 57 minutes ago
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skyliner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
So now you go look at little girls?

I know you aren't. (Are you?) But that's what the big hullabaloo(sp?) is all about down here now. We don't want pervs(like you? I'm just askin') saying they feel pretty or whatever and going into the ladies dressing rooms, taking pics, locker rooms, etc. Because once the gals can't call the cops on the pervy guy in the ladies showers at the fitness club, that's when boyfriends, husbands and dads will fix the problem.

Medical and legal professions will enjoy a bump in business.
843 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Skyliner: This is Canada... if you beat someone up you can get more jail time than if you rape a legion of kids, sad but true. We even jail people for defending themselves against attackers. The RCMP here is severely anti-vigilante and against self-defense, and in general doesn't care about victims; http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-canadas-sex-assault-laws-violate-rape-victims/article14705289/

Taking pictures in private facilities such as gyms and bathrooms is usually against the companies rules, and unlike changing rooms and bathrooms, there are no laws forcing private facilities to allow picture taking on the premises.

Medical professionals don't make more money just because there is more work, this is Canada.

In Canada you have to prove harm to sue... meaning whoever throws the first punch is most likely going to lose in court... of course most people cannot afford lawyers so usually nothing happens. The RCMP pursuing criminal charges is usually all that happens and they tend to go after the victims more so than the scumbags... and since the middle class is more likely to get a lawyer, the RCMP actually try harder to jail them rather than criminal scum which they presume will screw up in the future again.

I've literally chased a burglar off my property and followed him while calling the RCMP to make sure he is caught, all the RCMP did was talk to him, and then let him go. When I asked 'what if he comes back to get revenge', his response was that he was so high he wouldn't remember where I lived. Somewhat believable since the burglar actually was glad the RCMP showed up because he was pissed I was following him. I asked if they'd press charges, for the breaking and entering and also the rock-throwing he did as I followed him on my bicycle... they refused. This is what happens when you have a federal police force.
_ _ _

I use the women's washrooms before they changed the law a few times since janitorial services tend to close one off to clean it... and women tend to use the men's if there is a lineup for the women's. And at bars there is a lot of fornication going on in both.

When it comes to small children, I've seen little boys with their mother go into either bathroom, ditto for little girls with their father. I'm glad malls have started adding family bathrooms because often I go to use the facilities and a mother with a small army of badly behaved children would be gumming up the works... and it isn't my ideal surroundings to go the bathroom in. Plus I really don't miss diapers being changed in there.
843 days, 6 hours, 6 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Skyliner: Oh, and since apparently it wasn't obvious enough, the reason I go in there to protest the laws. Most of the time it does result in a conversation as to why I'm in there... which basically gives me a chance to crap all over our liberal government which is ruining my country... which I love to do, especially since women tend to be liberal and they immediately begin to question their liberal persuasion once I clearly demonstrate the flaw in liberal ideology. I'm one of those people that talks to strangers with no inhibitions... old people love me... young kids not as much, but I have a lot of hobbies in common with them so I have a lot of young nubile female friends... hippies in other words... it helps I look like I'm 18 still, good genes and a baby face.
843 days, 5 hours, 58 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Since were all over the place I'm gonna go a bit more off-topic just because... I'm a Canadian and I agree with Trump about my nation having unfair trade practices regarding lumber and dairy products.

NAFTA was a load of crap that has no right to have 'free trade' as part of its name.

As a consumer, I look forward to cheaper cheese and milk... there was a shortage at one point well over a decade ago which was used as an excuse to jack the price up... which then proceeded to never come down.

I'd like to see the US downsize their lumber industry in exchange for actual free trade regarding lumber and dairy... the tax payers are subsidizing the American lumber industry and that should stop... but Canada's Crown land system isn't going anywhere and were just better setup to supply lumber anyhow.
843 days, 4 hours, 23 minutes ago
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ridgerunner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
So why are you "looking at old man balls"? Shouldn't you be keeping your eyes on your own "business"?
843 days, 4 hours, 15 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Probably envy?
843 days, 3 hours, 43 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Kinda hard to miss, you can see them from the back and they swing about, and as human eyes evolved mostly to notice movement and then focus on it, kinda hard to miss. I was quite disturbed the first time, not looking forward to my own dropping half a foot.
840 days, 22 hours, 10 minutes ago
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ridgerunner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
I have retired to my lodge, and after many days I have received a vision from the Great Spirit.

Glyn's Indian name is.....





"Gazes at Old Man's Balls".
840 days, 21 hours, 26 minutes ago
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ghostrider
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
has the price of everybodies lettuce just gone up about 25%, any one heard why? , an on a side note weve gained 2 new land masses 1 in deep pacific an 1 in atlantic they say onese the size of texas floating plastic
840 days, 16 hours, 8 minutes ago
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skyliner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
All the rain in California messed up the planting season or something like that.
838 days, 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
This is for you guys:

"How To Survive The Coming Ice Age"
https://gnerphk.wordpress.com/2017/05/01/how-to-survive-the-coming-ice-age/
838 days, 3 hours, 16 minutes ago
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qinic
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
you forgot to mention the survival tactics :)
838 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Gnerphk: Calling coal pollution mitigation 'clean coal' is meant to be misleading I suspect... 'cleaner coal' would have been preferable.

"Clean coal is a myth. There is no such thing. Anyone who tells you that you can burn coal without releasing all sorts of nasty particulates and horrific disease-causing chemicals into the air you breathe is either painfully uneducated or lying to you."

Actually we can... you just don't emit any exhaust at all and pump it into pressurized containers... it is the first technology listed on your Wikipedia link.

The point I think everyone is missing, is China has not stopped building new coal plants, and they are not using clean coal technology anywhere near the degree we are. If we don't burn the coal, China will buy it and burn it... and this is exactly what occurred in Canada... we're shipping coal to China on ships that burn bunker fuel and then burn the coal without a fraction of the scrubbing we do here.

If we're worried about nasty particulates, then we should switch over to bio-diesel or add catalytic converters for vehicles/genertaors... because that is the main source humans are breathing them in.
___

Random factoid, China has underground coal fires that will probably burn for years to come. Happened in the US at least once too.
838 days, 2 hours, 35 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Gnerphk: I never heard of Tulsi Gabbard till now... reading the first two paragraphs Wikipedia page on her had me going; "Ok. Interesting. Veteran! Impressive. Good, nice, excellent! Ok. YES!"

I read the entire article, she is perfect... even as a Democrat she has managed to see through their Syrian regime change scheme they cooked up.

Get the war canoe boys, were annexing Hawaii!

837 days, 23 hours, 21 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
Yep. I have hopes for Tulsi. Not so much for Elizabeth Warren any longer; she does like her own press so very much. It's irritating, as irritating as Obama was to me when he'd decided to run (about six years before he actually did). I like to see a little fake humility in my presidential candidates.

The difficulty with coal effluent containment is that it makes burning coal economically impracticable.
837 days, 20 hours, 16 minutes ago
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skyliner
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
"D" means deal breaker. Sorry. Read "Fields of Fire" by Jim Webb, and if you really pay attention to the part about where the veteran addressed the anti-war crowd, you would wonder how Webb could be a Democrat. Unless he was fictionalizing the attitudes of the veteran. I always assumed he was writing his own views until he ran for the Senate. I was extremely disappointed. I had a great deal of respect for him until that time.

My last disappointment was with Senator John Glenn, when he threw what was left of his integrity overboard for a ride on the space shuttle.

No support for any Democrat in any way whatsoever ever again.
837 days, 19 hours, 20 minutes ago
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stygiusrex
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
@Ridgerunner, et al, the thing is that if we all agree that we should take better care of the Earth and ourselves, stop polluting and make an effort to be better stewards, and WE are WRONG, find out that humans aren't really causing irreparable harm to the planet, the worst that happens is the air smells better and the water tastes better and we save a few species we can feast on later. And some billionaires might make a few million less each year. Overall, everything is better, regardless.

However, if we follow the lead of you and your ilk, continue to disrespect the Earth and its denizens by dumping pollution into our skies and waters, continue contributing to the latest extinction event, and YOU are wrong, that we truly are destroying the current environment, we are well and truly screwed, to put it mildly. And those billionaires will be just as screwed as the rest of us.

With conservation and consideration, the rewards can be great.

With exploitation and greed, the risks will be devastating.

837 days, 19 hours, 9 minutes ago
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dragondejhi
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
You were upset that John Glenn wanted to take a ride on the space shuttle. A man who was one of the pioneer astronauts and helped lead the humans into space; a man who gave his youths life devotion on a cause; that since that time had grown into something bigger that he may have never envisioned; a man that then gave his time and energy into serving his fellow Americans in government no matter his political status... and then in his elderly age desired a piece of that feeling he helped start and see where his efforts had led his country and fellow man... you think he sold out? He wasn't just some rich person wanting a ride because he could afford it.

Was it throwing a bone to someone? Yea, I suppose. But I guess that dog deserved a bone. I just don't get the integrity issue.
836 days, 2 hours, 55 minutes ago
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drgirasol
RE: Anyone going to the March for Science (Fiction)? ...Write Reply
https://goo.gl/T20KLC