Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

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908 days, 13 hours, 27 minutes ago

razorblade

Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or is that just being stupid?

908 days, 12 hours, 53 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

That would totally change the game as it has only been set up for a flat map.

So no its not currently possible to have a 3D map.

908 days, 11 hours, 49 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

Well, that and -- it would make navigation absurdly complex. Right now we're point-and-click, but add a depth element to that and we advance beyond the two-button mouse.

As well, most people with spatial awareness can think themselves in 3D, but have trouble doing it abstractly -- with a game interface that's not first-person. And Planets isn't exactly a first-person shooter.

3d maps would probably be practicable for blitzes, but that's about it. And even then it would require a complete interface redesign, just as @MartinR suggests.

908 days, 11 hours, 39 minutes ago

lunchmoney

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

Navigation aside, if you had a 3D map then you would also have to have 3D planets.

908 days, 10 hours, 43 minutes ago

timma

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

It was a rather different game but Homeworld had a 3D map. It was workable with a mouse with every move being two clicks. First was in the xy plane. The second click was setting the z-axis distance. I assume it could be done but I bet there is a lot more programming and position accounting.

Maybe everyone is on a more even playing field in 2D. 3D could be advantageous to the pro's as even Khan was out witted by Captain Kirk. It also might further discourage new players from continuing to play due to the significant change in traditional tactics and strategy learned in 2D games.

908 days, 9 hours, 42 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

It is possible and would make the starmap a voxel system like Minecraft.

But honestly, it would take even longer to play Turns for very little improvement in gameplay.

Of course if you limit the z axis deviation and maintain a mostly xy map, you'd get the best of both. The main problem is this game is heavy on spheres (minefields) which already don't translate to the grid starmap very well, and do already make it a bit difficult to tell what you are looking at.

907 days, 10 hours, 59 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

This would make the game a lot better IMO. Sure it's more complex to program but other games do it.

907 days, 10 hours, 42 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

*shudder*

I hate 3D. Adds nothing to gameplay really, but makes it really hard to visualize.

907 days, 10 hours, 33 minutes ago

hentagon

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

I'm not convinced that it would make the game better. It would certainly make the game different. The strategic/logistical element of the game would be altered. The visualization in a lot of ways depends on how well developed the interface is.

Ultimately, I would have preferred Planets to have been developed in a 3D interface, but it wasn't, and to alter it would fundamentally change the gameplay, which would be akin to blasphemy in my books.

Chess is a 2D "map" with a quirky sense of logistics, but is nevertheless a great game. Planets is basically perfection; probably shouldn't be messed with to any great degree IMO.

907 days, 10 hours, 15 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

I think 3d would be awesome for a game like Planets. The key word there is a game LIKE it. Perhaps if the crowd on this site ever get around to thinking about a new version of Planets they could go that route, but the classic planets that we play currently is very much a 2d game. In order to change to 3d you would need to change a lot of core game mechanics (mines are just one example). The changes that are being made currently are tweaks within the framework of an existing game. Going 3d would fundamentally change the game itself.

907 days, 8 hours, 51 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

If we had a 3D map we should also get rid of the warp wells, have solar systems with stars and planets around them not this one planet floating around in space.

But if you had multiple planets around one star you could then have debri discs and variable distances as the planets rotate. Have engines that move in the solar system.

So if you changes the map you would have to change a lot of other things.

907 days, 8 hours, 19 minutes ago

indigo ferrinor

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

@martinr, would be awesome! :-)

907 days, 8 hours, 18 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

"Martinr: would have to change a lot of other things."

Not necessarily.

907 days, 7 hours, 41 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

Minefields would be really different. The same number of mines would not take up as much space in 3D because the number of mines would be spread out of a volume (x^3) instead of an area (x^2). You'd have to decide if you wanted to accept minefields being smaller, or if they should be adjusted so that they have the same radius of spread as before. That would require changing the number of mines multiplier relative to each torpedo. If you do that, you'd have to change beams too and how many mines they sweep.

907 days, 6 hours, 32 minutes ago

mcnimble

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

Would you want a realistic 3D game, or a playable 3D game?

Consider the HW-on-a-cricle and sphere. In the former, you have 2 neighbors, in the latter 4 to 8. Expand that to 3D. A globe is a surface, so HW-on-a-globe gives you 4 to 8 neighbors, like sphere in 2D. Now try sphere (random locations) in 3D. That is somewhere between 6 and 26 neighbors. Think Rubik's cube, 3x3x3 little cubes, you are the middle cube. 6 immediate neighbors (the centre cubes of all 6 Rubik sides) and 26 cubes surrounding you.

It would be easier to gang up the strongest player; would that result in more Capricorns?

907 days, 5 hours, 56 minutes ago

qinic

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

Well it wouldn't be Planets but an interesting game nonetheless

907 days, 5 hours, 44 minutes ago

joseve

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

i think this would be an awesome idea instead of a map that we click with the map we have to like type in orders like go attack planet 231 or something that way we don't have to completely try to figure out a new mouse

907 days, 4 hours, 4 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

@Psydev: Minefields already are based on amount of mines effecting radius... no change required at all to translate to 3D... they could even keep minefields 2D if they wanted to.
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@Qinic: "Well it wouldn't be Planets but an interesting game nonetheless"

It would still be Planets, it's really not that big of a change.
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If Sphere-mode didn't dramatically change the game, neither would adding a z-axis.

The only real criticism is actually increased challenge and time required to play a Turn.

Even Homeworld mostly stuck to the xy plane... and playing multiplayer using the z-axis was a bit of a hassle so that is why we know that is the main downside to going 3D.

Odds are we'd end up playing it from a top-down view anyhow so that is the only reason I'd say 3D isn't worth it... the other reasons raised are seriously without merit.

907 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes ago

singularity

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

I'd absolutely hate Planets maps to change to 3d. It would change the game far too much. This game has survived 20 years for a reason.

Also Planets 5 tried 3d.... and failed. Maybe the technical hurdles could be overcome now, but I doubt it would be easy to do.

However, I wouldn't mind if the 2d map could be rotated and angled up/down to help you better visualise where you were on the map. It would allow you to see the map from a second person "over the shoulder" perspective.

That would be cool and probably useful.

It might also help expand the game's target audience.

907 days, 3 hours, 1 minutes ago

challengespaceyard

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

Indeed, Planets 5 had multiple issues that prevented the project from leaving closed beta. It has been this way for five (5) years now!

Nonetheless, Planets 5 did have a true 3D system. Planets were divided into quadrants to keep the system workable, and ships moved one cell at a time based on their engine's speed, or several cells in one turn if the universe was set to turn-based (but we did not make it that far).

907 days, 2 hours, 11 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

I disagree with the suggestions that 3D would fundamentally change the game. Sure there would be changes, but I propose that the nice minefield explanation by Psydev, to use just one example, is not a HUGE change but rather a perfectly logical change that would naturally need to happen. Strategy and tactics would remain the same (laying mines, sweeping mines, overlapping mines...). I can't think of any other issues that wouldn't translate just fine to a 3D map either. Of course the NUMBERS change, but the game play and strategy remains the same.

Having said all that, I'm not sure it would be an improvement but if sure would be neat! Would require a scroll wheel mouse for navigation I'd think. An think of the VR goggles!!

907 days, 1 hours, 24 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

The problem is a matter of size of the universe; that's where it unbalances the game. When you go from a circle to a sphere, or a square to a cube, you massively increase the number of locations. Which means, you either keep the planet count the same, which means everything is much, much further apart (game-breaking), or you increase the planet count (also game-breaking).

This is the issue, not minefields or what have you.

907 days, 0 hours, 9 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

@Dotman: The maximum distance between planets would be less in a 3D Starmp based on the current method of Starmap generation.... not greater. And all the variables are already adjustable anyhow.
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Volume and area are in general irrelevant for this game, everything is 1D based at heart, which means we could play this game like a text based game if we wanted to. How it is visually represented is actually a minor detail.

I'd like that spherical-universe could emulate Sphere-mode so if you go in one direction long enough you return to your start point even in a 3D Starmap.

That is the only real change from 1D to 2D to 3D, you expand the directions you can move.

For a Blitz 3D would be nearly pointless change as you still only have one real direction to go in.

906 days, 23 hours, 51 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

I would like to see the planets move. Orbit around each other somehow. That is a bit more like what really happens. Perhaps just some small circles. I think it would be quite fun. Planets would get closer and further away, sometimes within 81ly and sometimes not, in some predictable fashion. What do you think?

906 days, 22 hours, 45 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

If there's anything that VGA Planets will teach you, it's that:
realism != fun.

906 days, 22 hours, 44 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

@Elephant47: Currently only Destroy Planet making a new Debri Disk causes nearby planets to move. But I'd like to see that also, mainly for circular maps to emulate a galaxy.

Oooh, and natural wormhole phenomena would be cool too.

:D

906 days, 15 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

@Glyn: There is no current method of starmap generation for 3d maps. The current method is not applicable at all.

@All: Regarding the size of the universe, planetary distance, and number of locations, it all has to do with engines in this game and how far they move you. It can't easily be rebalanced for 3D, because you can by default move in more directions.

906 days, 14 hours, 7 minutes ago

razorblade

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

I think rotating planets around a star would be unnecessary and would fundamentally alter the game. Instead you could just change the planets and have them as "solar systems" instead.

I would also suggest the z axis should not be as large as the other two so the 3d element is there, but doesn't affect anything two much because everything is more or less on a galactic plane. The main difference would be the changes to the visual interface.

I think realism is important in a computer game and shouldn't affect gameplay if done properly. That's the hard part. I also think planets is much better than chess because chess is absurdly unrealistic and doesn't even have spaceships.

906 days, 13 hours, 51 minutes ago

bennu

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

I Think That The Programmer Mite Look at The Game Gods and Idols for ideal of a 3D planets Mapping
would never give up Planets but i like the look and feel of G&I

906 days, 10 hours, 50 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

@Dotman: That is why I said "based on the current method of Starmap generation", as in taking the current method and expanding upon it... which is applicable since it is based on distance, not volume or area.... it would quite easily convert to 3D.

Also... what you just said really makes your previous statement about the distance being increased or having to add more planets really not make sense.

Simply decreasing the Starmap dimensions is all that would be required... and only because the gaps between clusters would be really large... the current code would be find for generating clusters as it is 1D based since it is based on distance from the HWs.

906 days, 9 hours, 21 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

Decreasing the dimensions is exactly the problem. If you maintain your current count, and your distance, you can fit all the planets in a much smaller sphere (or cube) than you can in 2d. Which means you can cross the map much faster, which is game-breaking.

906 days, 0 hours, 28 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

"Dotman: Which means you can cross the map much faster, which is game-breaking."

No it isn't... Sphere-mode didn't break the game, neither did Melee Sectors.

905 days, 23 hours, 8 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

I'm through debating this with you @Glyn. Don't believe me? Do the math. Until you do, frankly, you don't know what you're talking about.

905 days, 22 hours, 56 minutes ago

glynsalternate

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

"Dotman: I'm literally in a Sector right now that has a large distance between clusters... it's a bit different, but not game-breaking.

Don't make extraordinary claims if you aren't willing to provide proof or at least explain them.

905 days, 22 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: Is it possible to make the map 3d by adding a "z" axis? Or...

For fun I made a really close together planets Sector; http://imgur.com/a/re7O4

Kinda want to play on one like this for real now.