I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

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98 days, 2 hours, 1 minutes ago

hawkmeister

I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since the New Year, so apologies if this has been covered elsewhere:
Is there any plan to implement a fleet combat system, similar to what 'The Killing Floor' addon was to VGAP?

I always preferred this more realistic approach to combat, and it also changed the strategy of every aspect of the game, with massive fleets of mixed lesser vessels, vessels which are otherwise generally ignored in normal play.

Now, combine that with a larger ship limit and...

98 days, 1 hours, 47 minutes ago

robobob

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

I liked the Killing Floor but it radically changed game balance.

97 days, 23 hours, 43 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

You are the first to bring it up in the feed in possibly a year plus.

So it's not been brought up recently.

Admin do bring in new changes but I think that will be a low priority as very few bring it up.

Popular things get the most attention. And big changes like that will be a lower priority.

But you never know.

97 days, 22 hours, 28 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

There was a request and it was turned down on the feedback page about 5 years ago.

My self I would love to have it as on option even of only for Private games

97 days, 21 hours, 23 minutes ago

mursu

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Given how radically it would change the whole game it is hard to see implemented. I don't think there's any change ever made at Nu with even close to the same magnitude. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I'd be very surprised should that happen.

97 days, 20 hours, 44 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Although I'd guess the work to implement something like killing floor would be very time consuming, I imagine the feature could also be set to only be used in specific game types.

I would argue that designing a feature that would make lower tech ships more desirable would add balance to the game not affect it negatively.

97 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes ago

mursu

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

I have to ask would that system really have that kind of effect? Actually I'd say totally opposite. How would you as a torpedo race kill 10 carriers if those carriers can all fight at the same time?

Also Starbases would become pretty much totally worthless as any race could just attack with multiple ships.

And then abilities such as RGA would became pretty much useless (discounting self-RGA). And so on.

97 days, 20 hours, 21 minutes ago

mcnimble

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Add PLS to the mix... Interesting :)

97 days, 20 hours, 18 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

@mursu have you never used the Killing floor addon it worked great.

It is not balanced with current classic ship list and race advantages.

But Classic is not balanced. (and will not be changing)

Standard is not yet balanced they are working on it slowly. But many races still need a little more.

Campaign is not balanced. It adds options for new ships and race advantages. as well as race/ship abilities some that can be traded that can really unbalance a game. I am always hoping they add more and make some of the old host options available.

I find ground combat lacking at .NU but I remember playing games where each race had different ground combat numbers. believe they where set up like this. (each player had points to buy extra stuff including added +1's to combat or free fighters like the EE get)

attacking/defending
Fed 5/5
Liz 30/10
Birds 5/5
Fascist 15/10
Privateers 4/5
Borg 6/4
Crystals 6/6 non humanoid advantage
EE 5/5
Robots 6/6 non humanoid advantage
Rebels 5/5
Colonies 5/5

Fleet combat would not be for classic games.

97 days, 20 hours, 14 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

PLS is great for not Premium games as you can chose to use some ship slots to move ship parts around and not lose them.

I miss the medium full of Tranwarps/Mark7's heading to other Star Base from starbase+ I think it was.

97 days, 19 hours, 35 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

@Mursu

Just simply adding the ability to group ships would very over powered so you'd need a more robust system than that. A good example would be the game Stellaris, fleets are managed by number of ships allowed for empire and number of ships allowed in fleet with each class of ship assigned a point value. For instance empire is allowed 100 pts for ships, fleet is allowed 20 pts max and class are; 1 pt corvette 2 pt destoryer 3 pt cruiser etc etc...

If you invest to heavily in high point value ships, you just get overwhelmed by an enemy with more total ships and fleets because they spread their point value out better.

Again, this would require tweeking and a good amount of effort, but starbases and other features could be adapted and improved.

Also I'm not sure how RGA would be rendered useless in a fleet scenario, can you explain?

97 days, 18 hours, 12 minutes ago

mursu

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

RGA rendered useless was related to starbases losing their defensive value. If you can just send two Rushes to attack a starbase and be certain you'll not lose either ship there's little need in trying to RGA it down. Well the ability to force left side combat is still there, but I wonder if this feature would also be gone if there are wishes for more realistic combat.

97 days, 17 hours, 52 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

with Fleet combat 4 cloaking Deth Speculas could defend a planet with a Starbase vs 2 Rush can't remember if they win or lose any more.

here is some information about TKF http://www.donovansvgap.com/museum/tkfstrat/index.html

97 days, 8 hours, 3 minutes ago

glynsalternate

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

They were working on displaying multiple ship battles at a single location into a single VCR... so just a visual representation of fleet combat only.

Also had 3D models of the ships.

Been awhile since they discussed it... maybe put on the back burner or might have been abandoned.

97 days, 4 hours, 50 minutes ago

renathras

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

I like the idea, but it would certainly change things and probably force a necessity to re-balance at least some racial advantages.

I also don't really go for the 3D models. I saw the videos, and they were cool, but I feel like that's a MASSIVE amount of coding, modeling, and rendering for relatively little gain. Specially since you could achieve a similar result with just the 2D models in the game right now at a substantial computational and coding discount.

96 days, 21 hours, 18 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

I think we could do with a new VCR but uses the results from the combat table but displays it differently.

So the combat result is the same but the visuals are totally different. Possibly even involving "fleet" battles.

Currently ships attack one on one. The combat table simulates weapon jams and critical hits on weapons by delaying fighter launches, varying fighter launch speeds, beams not firing, torps always having a set chance of hitting no matter the size of the target or range.

The VCR shows this in a linear fashion. Beams dont fire from the start. Fighter launch rate remains the same.

Jazz it up. See shots taking out beams. The time carriers don't launch has the ship exploding due to critical hit etc.

But the battle finishes with the damage / shields / torps / fighters of the standard battle.

Maybe swap between battles mid battle. So a carrier takes down three ships see the battles "swap over" mid battle. So you have to guess how many ships die to the one carrier.

You could simply have VCR templates reproducing the less beams / slow fighter launch. With messages flashing up about critical hits. Fighters not launching. Big explosions after volleys of torps hitting etc.

But I am just possibly dreaming.

95 days, 20 hours, 1 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

I am not sure how much work there would be to making a new fleet combat .exe.
Anyone have a man hour estimate?

or if would be allowed to use TKF though it would have to be reworked from what every it was writen in. and how long something like that would take.

though I can't find it online now so would have to see if anyone had a copy. and/or could get in touch with the owner.

95 days, 19 hours, 22 minutes ago

hawkmeister

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Thanks for all the comments on this guys. It does seem like those of us old farts who remember TKF, do so fondly, and those with doubts may not have encountered it nor understand how it altered the combat side of the game (apologies if I assumed incorrectly!).

My limited Google-Fu brought up these two links, but the developer's homepage is long since dead:
https://www.donovansvgap.com/addons/tkf.htm
https://www.donovansvgap.com/museum/tkfstrat/index.html

It was an addon originally, and didn't require any other changes to the original game, nor did we encounter any stability issues or game breaking problems on the 20-30 games we played with it, or the massive amount of simulations we played (and more than a little pissing about too, re-enacting battles...). I am not a software guy so I'm not sure how easy it would be to emulate it for Planets.Nu, especially if the original is out there somewhere.

95 days, 12 hours, 5 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

I would be a big supporter of fleet combat. This game desperately cries for this type of add-on. The vast majority of ships do not get built due to ship slot premiums. Eliminate ships slots via PLS or other method, and then allow fleet engagements... drool. Torp races get instantly stronger. Escort ships become a thing. Dare I say "real ship combat"?

It would be a huge alteration, but I'd support an option to play this type of game bigtime. Every race would be well equipped to play this, though some more recent alterations might need to be rescinded like dbl beams, etc.

This is honestly an idea that should really get more attention. Player retention would certainly be higher with this obvious combat enhancement. Seriously... have you ever face-to-face explained Nu space combat to a potential new player? The looks...

93 days, 20 hours, 43 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

@Lord Pollax There seems to be many players that would like to see this.

93 days, 16 hours, 26 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Well, we have talked about our admins perhaps using some sort of survey of our players to see what kind of features and ideas we might like to see. This seems like a perfect item to add to that list.

Or maybe we players need to create some kind of survey of our own. Or poll. Something... anything really to demonstrate to the powers that be exactly "what" is actually a supported concept, desired change, game enhancing add-on.

This would help them get focus on issues the paying folks care about, AND help them not to waste effort in areas "we" do not want change. Win-win.

90 days, 21 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

I think this thread like the other ones on fleet combat will be lost to time. If only we had a Forum with topics and not just an active feed.

90 days, 18 hours, 54 minutes ago

mcnimble

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

(we have topics, they're called "Forums" and you can select them by clicking on "Forums" on the "Activity" page)

89 days, 1 hours, 9 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Did not know they reactivated the forums after they were removed. Then the act Feed was started, some years ago. Not looking closely I guess.

89 days, 0 hours, 25 minutes ago

lord krell

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Just tried logging, I use FF.

No problems.

L.K.

88 days, 23 hours, 53 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

To be honest, I did not know they reactivated the Forum here. Seems like that would have been some sort of news announcement considering all the complaints and threads discussing the lack of.

88 days, 23 hours, 2 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Let's be clear - there isn't really a reactivated forum.

The "Forum" function that is here is just a variation of the Activity Feed and it has (I think?) been here since the start. It's not news.... and it's always been a poor substitute for an actual Forum.

You can see this if you go "Activity", "Forum" and then select one of a wide range of topics. It loads up the posts that have been marked with that topic, in it's own "activity feed."

88 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Thanks for that clarification. I was hopeful, but upon review I see it is just thread catagories. Yuck.

88 days, 19 hours, 35 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

TKF was an interesting take on a fascinating tactical problem: how to integrate different ships and make them work to accomplish a mission. I enjoyed the concept and even the visuals.

By the way, Starbases can be treated like another ship for the defence. In other words, "2 Rushes taking out a SB" would not be so simple if the SB is handled like part of the defensive fleet. That is just my quick thought on that one.

The concept of 'fleet' action is interesting enough: I would be willing to play in any 'demo' match using it...and I would be interested in contributing some time to the "brain-storming" discussion that would be pre-requisite to assemble a 'template'. Such a template might include 'ship roles' (ie 'escort', 'picket-ship', 'protect at all costs', 'primary capital ship', 'intercept'', etc.)...it might include parameters regarding the ship characteristics to perform the 'ship role' (ie warp engine tech, weapons tech/type, hull mass, etc.). In other words, ships can perform some roles, but not all of them.

That 'template' of ideas would then require coding to bring it properly into "Development" or "Test" stages for playing.

Anyways, my personal feeling is that this kind of 'add-on' could be very appealing to older and newer players because it adds an appealing level of technical complexity that mirrors what has always been the case in 'real world' naval conflicts. One could say ALL conflicts, really...where 'escorting', 'scouting' and any kind of multi-platform action is happening.

Anyways, I don't have a lot of time to contribute, but I am willing to join a group of people who might be interested :)

Best Wishes and very stimulating discussion...thanks!

Blick

88 days, 10 hours, 10 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

'This is an early demonstration of the Planets Nu "Fleet Combat" engine for Planets.'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=layOqRc7iU4

88 days, 9 hours, 10 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

It is not fleet combat just normal combat made to look like it the results are from the 1 on 1 battles and that is the order ships blow up in it. made 3d to not sure.

88 days, 4 hours, 47 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Which is what I was talking about.

It keeps the game mechanics and displays it as a 3D fleet battle.

Would you prefer to watch something similar or the VCR from the 90's?

The 90's VCR has not changed it displays it as a table gives it. Beams don't fire all through the game not half way etc.

Something like that takes the result displays it as the result of the battle.

Anything else means you change the combat mechanics and totally change the game.

This makes it more visual.

88 days, 1 hours, 59 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

at least the one from the 90's will teach new players how combat is decided.

I don't want a fleet combat VCR unless there is true Fleet combat. It just makes it harder to understand what happened in the fight and what you can do to get a better outcome next time.

87 days, 22 hours, 54 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

If anyone recalls the old "Star Wars: Rebellion" game on PC, I really liked the fleet battle mechanics for that. It was 3d, you could pan your camera view to just about anywhere, and you could assign fleet engagement doctrines for the ship groupings and fighter wings.

Escort ships escorting and providing anti-fighter defense for capitals... yes please. Assigning fighters to act as interceptors or attacking ships... yes please. Even having real attack "fighters" like the Y-Wing/ B-Wing/ TIE Bombers was awesome.

It would be a great thing to have features like these in our system so fleets behave as fleets.

87 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

TKF had many of the same options. going to have to try and find a copy.

87 days, 17 hours, 4 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

What ever you do dont make suggestions and use every other option for questions, rather than this chat or you maybe called a Troll or accused of sealing, just beware.

87 days, 15 hours, 3 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

Reasonable suggestions coming from a grounded knowledge of the game and how it works is fine. Revisiting topics that even have been suggested before is fine, as long as said topics were reasonable and grounded.

Making flippant complaints about the game without having studied the game, how it works and why tends to garner you the treatment certain individuals are alluding to. In short, just don't be like these people, and you should be fine.

You can check this by going to a player's history of games. If most of their games have them dropped, that is a clear indicator showing that they lack an understanding of the game and don't really know what they're talking about.

87 days, 14 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

@JD this NB apparently is a different NB

Although they have the same style of making comments and both love CoM and want the same ship for CoM (Virgo with torps and carrier bays).

This NB is a friend of the old NB.

Some people cannot tell the difference.

I keep telling him he to create a new ID but they refuse.

A new ID would remove the old playing history of dropping.

But this NB only wants to play in training games and not experience a real game.

87 days, 14 hours, 12 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

This is the exact same NB.
Or a clone.

75 days, 0 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

To get back to this dead horse of a topic

Fleet Combat.

lets start a list of What we know about fleet combat from TKF.

1. Fleet combat works best with different ship list.
(we have expanded ship list in campaign)

2. It is unbalanced in Classic
(it's not for classic)

3. making cloaking more powerful in combat.

4. ship orders make big difference to outcome.

5. makes small ships stronger when used as a fleet making may unused ships playable.

6. rebalances the game so mineral cost of ship matters not just low large it is. this may work great in PLS games.

what else is there?

75 days, 0 hours, 3 minutes ago

robobob

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

7. Whoever bring the most to a fight gets the largest payoff. Under the current system you can lose the battle but inflict the greater amount of resource damage.
With TKF winner takes it all and may lose very little.

I like TKF. I like the realism that it brings. But Planets is not balanced around realism. Its balanced around a quirky set of highly assymetric ships and abilities. It works and its fun.

74 days, 21 hours, 31 minutes ago

RE: I've only been playing (or even aware of) Planets.Nu since...

It is quite possible to build a TKF interface that will similarly allow one to "lose the battle but inflict the greater amount of resource damage" as well. The concept of 'fleet batlle' will add a challenging aspect to the current game, not detract from it. I enjoy our current game primarily for the economic/development exercise; the simplistic 'jousting' type combat is less compelling to me. Similarly, I like resource 'poor' games to move away from the focus on the overwhelming supremacy of 'capital ships'. So, a Planets Nu TKF variant in a moderate to poor resource environment would be especially challenging and attractive to me.