Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...

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23 days, 4 hours, 37 minutes ago
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lord krell
Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have thought about one that might be interesting for all races, gives no advantage to any race, but would definitely be an exciting 'change' for certain.

Back when I ran VGAP on my BBS, another player/friend of mine and I came up with the idea of a Universal Bank. It has been decades since we played with that idea and if Tim W. or Dan & Dave, would be interested.

I had forgotten all about it. But reading all of what's happening to Planets.NU, made it pop back into my head.

(Planets.NU and the KIN addition, reminded me of that idea, and this would be a twist on the original, but here goes...)

Simply put, it would be a Bank repository for funds (during a game) from which all planets with Star Bases, could make deposits and withdrawals, from any Star Base the race owned.

There would be no cross-race trade, no alliance trade, the account would be only for each player to use for his own game and race in that game.

There would be no loans from the bank to any player.

Additionally, a 'fee' for making transfers in the players account, would be charged, and held by the bank.

This fee, 5 megacredits for every 1000 megacredits deposited or withdrawn by every player, would be held in an escrow account, and whatever is collected is given to the winning player in the form of KIN. If it is an alliance of 2, taking 250 planets and holding for the win, the proceeds of the bank's fees (from those 2 players) would be evenly split, regardless of score. A single player win would get all of the proceeds (his transactions only) back as KIN.

There might be a calculation needed to convert the KIN to credits, vis-a-vis the current system, so that no more than 50% of the winnings (credits) are turned into KIN. It may be feasible to have a sliding scale of winning fees = so many KIN. If this scale proves to be overly lucrative or sparse, it can be adjusted prior to release.

Also, there is a time frame for making transactions; one Base can only make 1 deposit or 1 withdrawal every 5 turns.

No player(s) would get the fee's collected by the bank that were charged to other players, those fees would be considered overhead for the bank, and unrecoverable.

Any player that drops out forfeit's his fees, as does any player killed off during that game. Pickup players of dropped races, are eligible to receive a winning fee or split of fees, based on completing the game, and will have his winning share (single or team win) based upon the original players collected fees as well as any he has paid to the bank.

Just a thought from the late 80's

L.K.
23 days, 3 hours, 11 minutes ago
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renathras
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
I feel like there used to be an add-on that would let you move MC between all of your starbases. I don't remember the exact details, but I'm pretty sure it was a thing.

I think there was a (host configurable) transaction charge, and a limit of 10,000 or something that could be moved at a time (probably used part of the game code that governs ships moving MC, and they can only move 10,000 MC at a time?), but any of your planets with a starbase could deposit/withdraw from this bank account.

It was, like in your example, for your race only. There was no pot or Kin or escrow, of course, but at least the basic idea has been done in the past for the old VGAP.

...I mean, I could have dreamed it all, but I don't think so, as I don't believe I ever used the add-on, I just remember reading the info blurb about it in a list of downloads from back in the day.
23 days, 0 hours, 22 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
It's a Campaign feature for some races. You transfer MC from SB to SB. Look at the Feds.
22 days, 23 hours, 44 minutes ago
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theclerk
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
This idea is nice but it changes the balance of the game for sure. I.e. HYP ships lose their value for trading and every race that cannot build HYP ships becomes stronger while races with HYP ships become weaker (because they lose a trade good).
22 days, 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
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lord krell
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
@Martinr, @Theclerk,

Maybe I'm missing something, but I do not see how this would hurt HYP shipping.

Since they can only HYP between 140 and 160ly I still see the reasoning for using them for trades with other races. I don't see many games where a players planets are so stretched out that they can use HYP to travel between them. Occasionally, yes. Once a player has expanded his empire, it would be very helpful. However it applies to ALL players in the game, so the point is moot. And he must have a BASE to use it, again making use of what? HYP ships perhaps?

By trade goods, I assume you are meaning, mainly credits, as they don't have much cargo capacity. So where would this hurt them? If that's the case, one can still use them to move credits.

Since credits, using the bank, can only transfer between bases, it still leaves a 'hole' for moving credits between players, and their planets that need credits.

All this does is eliminate the time needed to move credits to where they are needed by the player, within his domain, and his bases.

And why should something that may be healthy for all, be limited to the Federation (that already has the best economy) and limited to Campaign games?

The push is on to bring in more players, is it not? This addition, IMHO, would be yet another way to add an easily understood, and useful, dimension to Planets.

Will this eliminate the Base-in-a-Box idea, that I imagine we all use? No. It might make that a bit easier to accomplish, it may not affect it at all.

Is this idea perfect? Not yet. Can it be tweeked to be available to all? Yes.

It will help all players that are using it, and remember this; it can only be done once every 5 turns.

Yours,

L.K.
22 days, 14 hours, 3 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
It's 300LY. If there is no need to transfer MC from the corners of your empire then no need for hyping ships. So hyping races lose this trade item to other races
22 days, 13 hours, 23 minutes ago
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j-zan
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
@Lord Krell,

I think it's pretty common to have a need to link planets 350ly across in one's own Empire, an advantage HYP ships have. I have that need in my Cheeseball sector (currently turn 25) with a rather small empire, early in the game. HYP ships are very valuable for the early development of your Empire - including moving MC around.

One common use of HYP ships is to bring MC from one planet to another... your suggestion removes the necessity of that use.

Since some players think it's good to have "Money Transfer" HYP ships, the Hyp ships become valuable for trading to races that don't have HYP ships. The concern is that the HYP ships lose this value as a ship to be traded, and thus the HYP-Races lose something - (the trade appeal of giving away their Probes or Falcons.)

---------------
Re: The original sugestion.

This suggestion seems to me to fundamentally "dumb down" the economics/logistics portion of this game. It makes it easier for everyone to have the cash they need, where they need it. That's a loss, in my opinion.

I think a valuable part of this game is that it rewards players for making good logistical decisions in developing their economy. It's not the most entertaining part for everyone... logistics isn't flashy. But, for my money, logistics is an important skill.

I'm perfectly okay with that status quo.

-J
22 days, 12 hours, 59 minutes ago
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lord krell
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22 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes ago
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lord krell
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
@J-zan,

So, if I understand the bad points correctly, a logical/easy way to move money from base to base, is unnecessary. It keeps other races from dealing for HYP ships so they can move money around, and losing the ship trade factor for some other desirable ship, to the HYP ship builders who are the only ones to benefit from trading them away.

No other race would ever purchase a HYP ship because he can now move across the cluster, build a base, and have access to funds for that base in two turns instead of the two or three turns waiting for a HYP ship to arrive with the needed funds.

There would be no need for HYP ships to be purchased, because one could use something else for scouting or popping into a web field to do a minor sweep, then HYP out, annoying the mine field's owner.

No need for HYP ships to transfer credits to, or from, an ally.

It also "dumb's down" the economics and logistical portions of the game.

Kind of like new players not learning about the true logistics and economics of the game, or how to play the Orion, since they don't have to learn about fuel management or supplies. Which, IMHO, eliminates two learning curve's of playing, or defending against, the Orion.

At least the cloaking races can safely move credits to distant places as long as they have the fuel, they can do with or without a HYP ship.

And we don't need a new way to create KIN, or incentive to gather same.

L.K.

(Sorry if this sounds sarcastic, it isn't meant to be.)
22 days, 11 hours, 21 minutes ago
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j-zan
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
@Lord Krell,

First, I think that HYP ships have value far beyond "moving cash." What I tried to restate was the earlier concerns others raised. To reiterate, yes, there is a need in this game to moving MC's where they are needed, and many folks use HYP ships to address that need. Which makes HYP ships valuable for (at least) that purpose. Giving every race something that moves MC around (base to base) would devalue that use of HYP ships.

(Note: I would argue that HYP ships still have plenty of uses. But that was the concern as I saw it posted previous to me.)

----

Second, I think you are referring to some the beginner games and their rule sets when you talk about the learning of fuel management or supplies or the Orion. I came to this site (and Planets) long before there were those games and rule sets. I can't really speak to those - although I'm not sure they are a "good thing" in the whole myself.

The reality is that I think that managing fuel, supplies, minerals and MC's is a skill based part of the game. And I would be hesitant to give a new tool (base to base money transfer to all races) that would eliminate some of the nuance or complexity in that part of the game. Mastering the economy is a way to excel in this game. (As is mastering Diplomacy or mastering Military tactics.)


FWIW: I like that the Feds have the SB-Money Transfer option. It makes it a unique advantage that can be used to boost a Fed's logistical options. Opting to use it (or not) in a campaign game becomes a strategic decision - and is an interesting choice. It's good, in that limited way.

But giving SB-Money Transfer to everyone would take that away those interesting choices - making it just a default use.

-----

Third, the part of the suggestion that sets up a "Kin-Pool" by imposing a fee on the money transfers is a different issue. I don't like the idea of using "Kin" or "Campaign MCs" in this way, personally. And I don't think it's even feasible to create Kin via in-game megacredits in the way suggested. In theory, we could create unlimited Kin by doing this.... just set up a game where people constantly run transactions with their MC's. It'd be easy to max this out, and amass a huge "Kin Pot" for the end of the game. I think that's a deeply exploitable concept.


Cheers,
-J
22 days, 8 hours, 6 minutes ago
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renathras
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
Oh, it should be noted: The Birds already have a research for moving MC between bases. It's not as seamless or whatnot as you suggest, but it does exist. So if you really want to try that mechanic, you could give that a try?
22 days, 8 hours, 3 minutes ago
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lord krell
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
@J-ZAN,

Well, as I started out, this was an idea from the late 80's. Lots of things have changed in the original VGAP since then.

I lost many years, from about 1990-2014 not playing, as i had thought it had gone the way of my BBS, and it didn't exist anymore. My friend found me on the Internet and wrote that it was alive, as Planets.NU. Can't believe how many changes that have been made since the days where you could talk to Tim W. and get answers or ideas.

The idea still has, IMHO, a valid place in the game. If it wasn't basically a good idea, it wouldn't be used for the Federation in bigger games.

As for the mining of fees, I had thought of that as well, thus the 5 turn rule, as well as a sliding scale, and available only from the one player's bank account.

He would still have to expand, and WIN the game to collect and reward.

Perhaps I should study this for another 3 decades and see if it works then. :) Really don't think that will happen though, as I would be over 100 years old and not very agile in mind or body. LOL.

The new interface will absorb many of the current players, but those of us who have played on every kind of machine, from an 8088 to current machines, will fall by the wayside since the version we all loved and played, is no longer supported.

However, I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas, and never expected the humble HYP ship to be the bump in the road that threw me for a loop. Interesting, indeed.

I have my problems with the new interface but am trying to overcome them in 1v1 training games, so maybe I'll adapt as well.

Thanks for the banter, it stimulated me almost to anger, but in retrospect, it has simply made me think about this conversation in a different way.

See you in the cluster!

L.K.
22 days, 4 hours, 9 minutes ago
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lord pollax
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
I think one of the fundamental reasons I've support SB money transfer options is that it literally makes no sense that races can navigate lightyears with space ships but do not have a central banking capability for real time money transfers. You know, like communications, intel, sensor data, etc.

They can clone technology from other races, but cannot execute money moves like we can on Earth since Western Union and ATMs came about. Illogical.

Change the game? Sure. Makes sense? Sure.

And for what it is worth, moving money with HYP ships is vastly over rated. That is a job for NFC's with 1 unit of fuel onboard. Plan accordingly, and you don't need to waste the 100 fuel to deliver via HYP ships to save 4 turns. It is lazy, like pizza delivery.

Not saying I don't use them that way on occasion, but race crippling impact if money transfers were allowed? Hardly.

Money transfer options for all should be an option available for game creation for all.
22 days, 3 hours, 26 minutes ago
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sirad
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
Well, to create some useless technobabble---

Future civilizations have already the knowledge that only 'physical money' is real money and all other 'virtual' currencys died out, as they represent no value at all.

So it has to be transported thru space.


22 days, 3 hours, 13 minutes ago
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j-zan
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
(@Lord Pollax, yea, I agree, it's almost insane to think that these spacefaring races don't have a basic "Western Union" in place. But, it's a game.... there are plenty of insane things that are part of our rule set, no?)



@Lord Krell,
I certainly hope that you aren't simply stimulated to anger - my voice is just one voice, and folks are welcome to disagree with my reasoning. Or, ya know, simply ignore my reasoning. Please don't take disagreement as a sign that your thoughts or ideas aren't valuable.

Also, just to note, the "Classic Ruleset" is pretty close to VGAPlanets 3.0. It's still supported (in a fashion) here, and available to play.




As I said, I agree that "SB-Money transfer" is valid... as a campaign option for the Feds (and Birds, and Robots). It simplifies a part of the logistical game, and I think it's an interesting choice for a commander to choose to select that campaign addition or not... it's costly (50 advantage points), but it streamlines money transfers. I can see playing one of those races with it or without it - and choosing it (or not choosing it) would influence other choices I make about advantages. I *love it* as a campaign option for some of the races.


Games (pretty all of them) are fun and interesting based on having the option to make interesting choices. Ya know, "Candyland" isn't a very interesting game... because the player has no choices to make.


With that in mind, giving "Sb-Money Transfer" to all players eliminates a set of choices about how to manage your money. To use "HYP" ships, or Fuel Carriers, or manage MC's locally, or, ya know, play the Feds or 'Bots with the "SB-Money Transfer" advantage. If every race has this by default, it would effectively become a default method of moving MCs. In all fairness, it might change some of our decision-making... folks might be motivated to put up a SB on "money producing" planets that they might not have done previously. But I think overall it would reduce choices in a way that makes the game less complex.



And so, simply put, making this a *default feature* for all races would reduce an element of complexity and decision-making - and I think be a bad thing for Planets.

While I'd be more open to the thought if it were a campaign advantage that races could choose to use or not, as it already is with the Feds/Birds/Bots - I'd still worry that you are making the races too similar.

Finally, would it be worth it to make "SB-Money Transfer for Everyone" an option at game creation - as Lord Pollax suggested? Well, I think that's a loaded question. In my book, of course having more options is generally a good thing for custom games. But I would have reservations about spending limited "developer time" on this particular option.

/Shrug.



P.s. Regarding Lord Krell's suggestion about fees on the transfer creating additional "Kin pots" for players to win. As I said before, this feels exploitable. Yes, obviously there are tools to try and minimize exploitation (sliding scales, or caps, etc...) But I'm not particularly confident in the ability to prevent all exploits. More importantly, we *already win Kin* for winning the game. This feature would just "add to the pot" based on how often a player used this option. It feels superfluous to me.
22 days, 3 hours, 7 minutes ago
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j-zan
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
@Lord Pollax. Pretty sure you can move that NFC without any fuel on board actually.....
22 days, 3 hours, 5 minutes ago
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regicide
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
biggest issue I see is not being able to capture MC/supplies when I take/lose a Planet.
22 days, 2 hours, 31 minutes ago
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lord pollax
RE: Since some of us are on the topic of 'change', I have...Write Reply
@J-Zan, Yes it will move... but no other missions. I like to mine sweep with them personally : ) Allows me to see without revealing my true sweep capability.

@Regicide Most folks can see a planet loss coming and good ones leave the planet burning and barren, if possible. Now instead of 500 Mk1 torps getting built, I can actually transfer off part of the lootable goods. I'd still probably burn minerals via building crap torps, but I might do it more economically and save my money to fight another day.
21 days, 16 hours, 20 minutes ago
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lord krell
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All,

I have limited time this morning, Dr appt.

I thought about this last night, and decided that (even though I liked the KIN idea) that the rewards for using the UB (Universal Bank) just for the transfer of funds to BASES only, be eliminated from this idea.

Make it a simple banking exchange, still with a fee (UB Overhead) with no rewards involved.

Also, the 'fee' should be a simple percentage of the transfer. Or a set amount for using it.

Just an adjustment, but it would be a major one, and completely free from exploit.

I figured this, while thinking: "Why reward a player for something that is already, in effect, 'reward'.

Be back in a few hours, 65 miles to drive and wait at the VA. :(

L.K.