some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...

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1578 days, 17 hours, 19 minutes ago
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zappazapper
some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to be, for every individual planet, some optimal number of mines, taking into account mineral richness, cost, and time... for example, you wouldn't build the same number of mines on a mineral poor planet as a mineral rich planet, even though you'll get access to those minerals quicker, because it would be a waste of MC and supplies once the minerals run out... does anybody have a mathematical method of determining the optimal number of mines to build on each planet (ie. not just an arbitrary number like 100 or 200 or max)?
1578 days, 16 hours, 11 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Planetary management plugin has built in tools to predict the mines necessary to bring all minerals to the surface.

https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/6127-planets-nu-planetary-management-plugin

YouTube videos on how to use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wlie1DMTcc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWTyGgdNSM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v52gSlmC6k

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(っಠ‿ಠ)っ Planets Chat: http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=#planets

1578 days, 15 hours, 49 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
thank you, that's very interesting and i'll have to check it out... however, this plugin still doesn't necessarily find an optimal number for you as much as it does a better job of presenting information so that you still have to make a somewhat arbitrary decision... i'm looking for something along the lines of THIS MANY TOTAL KT OF MINERALS ON THE PLANET means if you spend more than a certain amount on building mines, you will have a net loss (considering minerals can be converted to supply units and vice versa via alchemy, colonization mission, etc.)... everything has an equivalence, so i'm wondering if anybody has actually done the math to find ONE OPTIMAL NUMBER of mines for any given planet...
1578 days, 15 hours, 20 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
maybe the answer is that naturally occurring minerals (ie. minerals not created via alchemy) are finite, and as long as the mining rate on a planet is not greater than the total amount of minerals available to be mined, one should build the maximum number of mines possible in order to extract them as quickly as possible, as MC and supply units are theoretically infinite (they get created out of thin air via taxation, factories, bovinoids, with no finite ceiling like planetary minerals)... anybody have a counter argument for this line of thinking?
1578 days, 15 hours, 13 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
10, maybe fewer, depending.

Done the math? Not so much. There's the Calculator page, but that only gives estimates.

Personally, I stop and figure what my use of the planet is gonna be. Since I usually max factories first, that's easy enough. Then, I find the resource that's gonna be the most problematic and tune to that. (More on that in a sec.)

See, in the endgame, every single planet with a decent climate should have a massive Colonist population plus a fully-defended starbase. I'm talking millions here. Icy or desert worlds need a Supplies stockpile to manage it, but I like to put 130k+ on each of those -- more if I'm facing Lizards or Fascists.

In order to make that happen, you'll need minerals, sure, but most of those will be generated by Merlins. The big limiting factor (at least for players who don't get free fighters) is cash. Even with exceptional luck, most of your planets will only produce an average of a couple of hundred per turn for the first fifty-odd turns (more for Lizards and Feds).

Thing is, massive numbers of mines are bad for colonist and native happiness. I like to keep my numbers small when I can -- 30, maybe. But that's on worlds where there are great natives and copious nearby mineral worlds.

The other side of the coin is places on borders, where happiness is less important. On those, I max everything and take every scrap someplace safe, at least ideally. The most important thing there is to make sure there are no huge fuel stockpiles on your borders. Mine 'em out quick, and then either haul 'em back or dump 'em -- unless you're planning to attack through there, of course.

Then too, there's the non-native high-mineral worlds close to my homeworld or close to good Ghip, Human, or Silicon native worlds that I develop early in the game. I hate to do it, but I mine those suckers out but fast.

So, tuning:
Let's say there's a world with ten thousand Neutronium at something piddly like 11%, and it's someplace where I'm gonna need a ton of fuel. So what I do is, I figure how many colonists I'm gonna have there (say 20,000 or so; good safe number) and I set an autobuild target with that in mind. So... 180, say, or 190, a bit below the ideal for 20k colonists. Then, after the population reaches the target, I go back to the world and adjust, building mines one at a time until the amount of minerals mined per turn ticks up by one. Then I set the Autobuild to that number so I know I've been there and tuned it, and I forget about it for the rest of the game.

Simple.

It's not a pre-figured number, mate, and it's not an add-on. It's an easy method you can use whenever you get around to it. Using those whenever possible, in my opinion, is the trick to playing this game.
1578 days, 14 hours, 43 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
:) let me be clear that at this point it's not necessarily about "winning"... i've been playing vga planets for, say, 20 years... and i'm not claiming to be good at all, like "i've seen it all", anything ridiculous like that... yes, i was initially interested in the game because it was a space game with planets, ships, starbases, etc., but these days i'm more interested in the math behind the game... so while your advise is probably more effective than my approach, if the goal is "winning", at this point my goal is a better understanding of the inner workings of the game... what i'm hoping is that one day i will be able to use that understanding to develop a "winning" strategy based on sound analysis of available information rather than "trial and error", but at this point i'm just trying to apply this to very simple scenarios (ie. single player level 1)...

having said that, i'm happy to read your take on the subject, as even though our goals are different, it has reminded me of something that i failed to consider - happiness... so the question becomes "what is the cost of happiness"? very deep stuff indeed :) but seriously, my goal would be to find, for each planet, the optimal number of mines to build that will extract the minerals (finite) in the shortest amount of time (effectively finite) but will not affect happiness in such a way that will limit the amount of taxes i can collect (infinite but subject to a rate)... what i'm trying to do right now is come up with an equivalence for minerals and supplies/MC... merlins take 3 supplies to make 1 mineral... mines cost 4 MC and 1 supply unit, but generate minerals as long as there are minerals still available to be mined, and not just one mineral per turn, many different minerals at different rates... theoretically, planetary minerals are cheaper... or at least they can be... 4MC/1 supply for a continuous stream of minerals is only more expensive than 3 supplies per mineral when the amount of minerals on a planet is a certain number... what is that number?

you see where i'm going with this :)
1578 days, 14 hours, 22 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
again, my thought process is that planetary minerals are finite, and everything else is infinite although sometimes with a rate... happiness may affect the rate at which colonist and native populations grow and are taxed, but it doesn't put a hard ceiling on the total amount available like it exists for planetary minerals... the planetary minerals are there, and except for meteors, the total amount is fixed... it stands to reason that extracting those minerals as quickly as possible is more important than maintaining happiness, as the growth and taxes can be made up over time, which isn't possible with minerals...
1578 days, 14 hours, 1 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
@Zappazapper: Taking into account WHEN you want the planets resources mined out is more important than absolute efficiency. If I can't collect or use the resources then they don't need to be mined yet... planets I know I won't return to for X amount of Turns are quite common. People that terraform can then coordinate with their mining efforts. Terraformers tend to have crap engines that freighters tow about. Fixed Turn games also are becoming a thing, so it is handy for those games too.

Nothing is infinite, with Fireclouds and hordes of captured alchemy ships and freighters I've moved clans around like planet strip mining colony. Can't terraform all the planets, so you just plop clans down and strip mine, and abandon except small defense force.
1578 days, 13 hours, 11 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
again, not necessarily trying to consider all situations, more just an ideal case... like my homeworld, for example... is it really best to just max out mines because it is mineral rich and i can afford it, or is there some numerically justifiable reason to build less? that kind of thing... i can start to figure out how to apply that to different specific situations once i have a handle on the basic case... but thank you :)
1578 days, 12 hours, 46 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
http://www.vgaplanets.ca/vgapcalc.php#tax_happy

Fiddle around with it there for specific cases.

http://play.planets.nu/#/howtoplay/taxes-details

That gives you the formulae.
1578 days, 12 hours, 7 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
i'm very familiar with the calculator and the formulae...

i'll try to explain it better... in highschool one of my classes was "finite math", and one of the things i learned was an "optimum"... so say you have a product and you've been selling it for a certain price for some time... you do a study and find that if you lower the price by certain amounts, you'll have certain increases in unit sales and if you raise the price by certain amounts you'll have certain decreses in unit sales... the "optimum" price isn't the one that gives you the most unit sales, nor the one that gives you the most profit per sale... the optimum price is the one that gives you the most total profit, and there is a definite mathematical solution to find it...

and so with VGA Planets there is all kind of this type of interrelated data... if you build mines and factories, happiness decreases, which decreases growth and taxes, and any number of other factors can change or be changed by the number of mines you build, especially considering time as a factor... so i'm trying to find a mathematical solution to find out what is right number of mines/factories to build that will give me the most mining/supply production and the most growth and tax collection for each individual planet's particular characteristics... it's considerable more complex than just using the calculator to figure out how many mines i can build if i drop 150 clans on a planet... i want to know how much SHOULD i build...
1578 days, 11 hours, 51 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
The problem, ZZ, is that you haven't given us anything to solve for. "Best" isn't enough of a description.

There is no min-max here. Build more mines, you get more resources. Build less, you get less. Exactly the opposite for happiness, but that's apples and... not oranges; that's apples and blueness. Do you want the most resources for the fewest mines? That's solvable; you need to find the rounding errors and take advantage.

You can't win or lose this game from a formula, mate. At the least, you'd need three separate formulae, all complex, all distinct, and each designed on a situation.
1578 days, 11 hours, 48 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Strike that; you'd need about a dozen, and they'd vary based on race and game type. Mostly on race.
1578 days, 11 hours, 36 minutes ago
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stardestroyer
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
It would mostly depend on how quickly you need the minerals. If the planet is near a border, and you have money to build torps let's say and you're sending torp ships to the place to mkt, you need minerals faster even if it's not necessarily most efficient. If you're short on a particular mineral in the area and this planet is rich / dense in it, you want to max its production even if it's not necessarily most efficient. If a planet's about to be overrun, and every Moly you mine means a new fighter ready to take its place in the defensive line, you mine.

Absent those requirements, I personally build just enough so that the 2 most common elements are mined out in 10-15 turns. That's long enough that you do not overspend and short enough that you use the minerals before your merlins become available in quantity to offset the loss of production.
1578 days, 11 hours, 7 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
gnerphk... ok now you're starting to understand what i'm after...

"you can't win or lose this game from a formula" - i beg to differ... the fact is that this entire universe we're participating in is just numbers... locations, amounts, rates... it can all be analysed and used to develop a strategy... maximize economy, streamline logistics, guarantee victory in war... and yes, it would (and is, as i'm currently wrestling with a multi-sheet spreadsheet) require dozens of complex calculations based on the results of dozens of other complex calculations... but consider even real-world militaries today... yes, there is a general in charge, but militaries today are largely IT and logisitics organizations... they gather data, they process that data, they use the results of that data to efficiently prosecute war and maximize the chance for victory... it could be argued that what i'm trying to do isn't in the "spirit" of the game, but it is true that all is fair in love and war... modern militaries don't rely on having brilliant strategists/tacticians in the mould of napoleon or patton... and that's the situation i'm in... i'm not a brilliant strategist... but what i am is someone who can see how all the numbers relate to eachother, and has no doubt that somewhere in all the numbers, is a right answer to any question that could be asked in this game... and i believe if i can use these numbers to find a way to maximize my economy, streamline my logistics, and maximize my chance for military victory, based on cold hard facts, then that gives me, at least, the best chance to compete with the brilliant strategists, of which i'm sure there are many around here :)
1578 days, 10 hours, 54 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
stardestroyer - ok so 10-15 turns... this is a number that you have stumbled upon through experience... what i'm after is a mathematical solution that says "254 mines is the optimal number of mines that will maximize both production of minerals and also population growth and tax collection (ie happiness)" in just a general case scenario...

consider a VGA Planets galaxy with one planet... 50 temperature, 25000 clans, no natives, 3000 kt minerals across the board, 50% density... what is the "optimum" number of mines and factories that will extract the minerals in the shortest amount of time while keeping the happiness high enough to maintain growth and taxation, taking into account the equivalence between minerals and supplies/MC (alchemy and neutronic refinery), and indeed the cost to produce those ships... that's what i'm trying to work out... how that relates to a multi-planet, multi-race universe with the realities of war, etc., cannot be worked out until that basic case can... it is indeed complex math, but there is a right answer, or at least a "righter" answer :)
1578 days, 10 hours, 46 minutes ago
View tom graves's profile
tom graves
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
42.
1578 days, 10 hours, 44 minutes ago
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tom graves
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
It is so obvious, I am surprised you did not figure it out yourself.
1578 days, 10 hours, 42 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
touché
1578 days, 10 hours, 17 minutes ago
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dotman
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
The problem with mineral mines (or any resources, for that matter) is that "best" is entirely dependent on your logistics infrastructure.

What I mean is, it does you no good to produce the materials if you can't turn them into war materiel. So you're asking what's best, well, the answer is, it depends entirely on how efficiently you can move the raw resources to the places where the ships or weapons or what have you are produced.

If you were to specify your capacity there, then you can begin looking at the path optimization problem that you can begin solving (or probably writing a program to solve).

You should probably start with a simple case, say, one planet/no logistics, and what you want to produce, then move to a small cluster, then etc etc. In the case you talk about, your HW example, for instance, the answer is, you decide what war materiel you need to build each turn, see which resource will be the limiting one, and build just enough mines to have enough of that resource when you need it. It depends on what you want to build.

This is probably the hardest part in writing an effective non-cheating artificial player.
1578 days, 9 hours, 40 minutes ago
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big beefer
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
I think I see where you're coming from. It's something I've thought about too. Aside from "build what you need to get what you need", which is the primary driver in mine building, some values are better than other. For example, say you have 49 mines, and building the 50th causes your native happiness change to go down by one. Then it probably wasn't worth building that mine.

But the question gets trickier because of the other things that effect happiness as well, and that they change over time. Build your 49 mines now, and you can't build any more factories ever because that will push you over the threshold. Build 49 mines now, and find in a couple turns you've gone over the threshold anyways due to population growth.

There are certain values for "planet stuff" that are more efficient. Another example is that in some cases it is best to not let your natives reach their max population, because it will push the happiness change down. And then you will actually be able to get less money out of them.

This is all very min-max kind of stuff. In most cases it's not going to win or lose the game for you. But I can see the interest.

And if you come up with the answer, let me know, and I'll put it in the computer player!
1578 days, 9 hours, 22 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
yes, i agree with starting with the simple case... one world galaxy, no war, no need for ships, etc...

consider that there is an equivalence between supplies and MCs... you can sell a supply for one MC... you can't buy supplies, but that doesn't change the fact that a supply is worth 1 MC...

now consider a merlin (i know i said a galaxy with no need for ships... i'm only trying to establish a legitimate equivalence)... a merlin can convert 3 supplies into 1 mineral (not neutronium)... so 1 mineral = 3 supplies = 3 MC...

now consider a neutronic refinery ship - 1 neutronium = 1 supply + 1 mineral = 1 supply + 3 supplies = 4 supplies...

so there does exist an equivalence between all the different materials in VGAP... 1 neutronium = 1 supply + 1 mineral = 1 supply + 3 supplies = 4 supplies = 4 MC...

now consider that by using those equivalences, one can measure the total production of a planet without regard to what specific material is being produced... for example if a planet produces 100 of each mineral (neutronium included), 100 supplies, and 100 MC of taxes are collected, the total output would be:
100 N + 100 D + 100 T + 100 M + 100 S + 100 MC
=400 S + 300 S + 300 S + 300 S + 100 S + 100 MC
=1400S + 100 MC
=1500 MC

so what i'm trying to find is, considering the effect that mines and factories have on happiness and thus growth and taxation, what amount of mines and factories would give the highest total production, over 1 turn and over many turns.... where does the function that represents mineral production over time intersect with the function that represents growth and taxation (happiness)?

once i have established a working method for processing that simple case scenario, then i can begin to add more elements of the game like logistics and need for one class of material over another, but to start off trying to solve a 500 planet galaxy before the first turn is akin to trying to find the unified theory :)
1578 days, 9 hours, 3 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
big beefer - i'm much more interested in maybe working with someone to develop a plugin... truthfully, this all stemmed from my complete frustration with having to deal with logistics on every turn... i've worked in warehouses my whole life that have automated stock systems... we have RF guns and they just give us tasks to do all day... the boss doesn't do anything except monitor our time vs. the computed goal time... the computer knows where everything in the warehouse is, knows what the inbound trucks are carrying and what the outbound trucks are supposed to leave with, and it has us running around moving pallets around, organizing the warehouse, staging pallets for shipment, etc... nobody has to sit in front of a computer and go "ok, i need this much of this stuff there and i have these forklifts so i'll get him to do this and him to do that"... and so when i began to consider that the same type of system could probably be used to deal with moving materials around in VGAP, i started thinking that the same approach could be applied to economics and even combat (really, there are no tactics in VGAP... you both show up at the same location and blow your load until somebody is dead... there is some chance to individual battles but it could easily be boiled down to worst-case scenario, average, and best-case scenario)... maybe it would have been easier to start with the logistics problem, but i guess i clicked "plants" and figured i had to start somewhere :)
1578 days, 9 hours, 1 minutes ago
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dotman
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
This is easy. The answer is none. 0 factories and 0 mines will produce the most megacredits. The hit you take to happiness by building planetary structures far outweighs any increase from the supplies produced or the minerals produced on any planet with natives or high colonist pop you will find, even taking into account your equivalences above.

The problem is these equivalences you've laid out, that 1 moly is worth 3 megacredits, or whatever, are completely invalid. The cost to make it is not the value of it.

Which is why there is no answer without the idea of what you're using the resources for. To the Crystals, 1 moly is worth a hell of a lot more than 3 megacredits.

My planetary management plugin will allow you to set various scenarios for your planet, and see what the results are 50 turns down the road. You should play with that.
1578 days, 9 hours, 0 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
hmm... i just realized that there is really no equivalence between material and population... population can generate material (taxation, collection, max structures), but in itself it is worthless (can't be bought, sold, converted)... it is a completely separate resource...
1578 days, 8 hours, 49 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
:) i'm not trying to downplay the usefulness of your plugin... i wish i would have known about it a long time ago, and i do plan on using it when i get around to actually PLAYING the game again :) the same enthusiasm for this game that led you to develop your plugin is the same reason why i'm thinking about these things... just something that's been nagging in my brain for a while... i appreciate your view on the matter, it is very helpful and i hope participating in this discussion with me is at the very least not frustrating, if not enjoyable :)

back to the argument, though :P

but 1 moly IS worth 3 MC!!! maybe to the crystals that's a much better deal than to any other race, just as $1 for a bottle of water in Western Sahara is probably a better deal than it is here... or maybe not... but the point is that yes, some things will have different usefulnesses to different races, but 1 moly is still worth 3 MC to the crystals because they can use a merlin to make 1 moly for 3 MC (again, just for the sake of argument ignoring the cost of building a merlin/and or the possiblity that it's not a ship a crystal can make)... and again, i get what you're saying, but what i'm saying is that it's really the only way to compare the value of different classes of material... it might not be accurate for every situation and every race, but it's the best we have...
1578 days, 8 hours, 32 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
"The hit you take to happiness by building planetary structures far outweighs any increase from the supplies produced or the minerals produced on any planet with natives or high colonist pop you will find"

this may be true but minerals and supplies are a necessary part of the game, so then the question becomes what number of mines and factories causes the highest increase in mineral production with the lowest negative change to happiness... and not only over one turn but over many turns... like over however many turns it takes to completely deplete a planet of minerals... what is the highest total production capable when meeting the condition that all minerals have been extracted from the planet...
1578 days, 1 hours, 15 minutes ago
View tom graves's profile
tom graves
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
It is important that you are trying to develop an algorithm to develop an effective economy and I know I do a form of it when I am building out my economy.

For example, I will minimize factories on planets with native life (unless there are few minerals there and I know I will build few mines). On Bovinoid worlds I tend to not build any factories. The reason for doing both these is to maximize the willingness of the natives to pay taxes. For native planets, I sometimes dispense with mines and factories or just build a handful if the native race population and government are high and planet temp is in the 40 - 60 degree range (unless siliconoid). All of these decisions get at what you want to develop, but do not bring it to a science (more an art).

On non native worlds, I always maximize factories (I think that is a constant you can use). Mines on those worlds are built to pull all of the minerals out of the ground in (my default setting is 50 or 100) turns, depending on how much there is and how early or late it is in the game. Since we have moved to low minerals many planets have so few minerals that now, that default setting is more in the range of 10 - 50 turns (even when there is huge amounts of minerals because other planets have so little that you must maximize the planets with 7 - 10K of minerals).

Since the game is based on mathematical principles, certainly there is an algorithm that would meet your needs, our current emperor excels at this even over other quality players, maybe he uses a plug in or maybe you could pick his brain to see his economic development methodology.

Tom
1578 days, 0 hours, 41 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
I think what you're missing, ZZ, is the effect race has on the question. Let me clarify:

(1) Robots pound through Tritanium. Most of their hulls are Tritanium-heavy, and traditionally the Robots build tow-ships (a savings on engines) and don't worry much about minesweeping (high-tech guns cost Moly), preferring to rely on countermining. Their fighters are also Tritanium-heavy. The heavy ships demand Neutronium, but you've probably got plenty of that, Duranium, and Tritanium lying around (since they're common). Therefore, no mineral is particularly scarce once you get over the Merlin hump (600+ Duranium).

(2) The Empire has no minesweeping advantage and has a less-than-ideal minelayer. Its ships require excellent engines and weapons, and the "free" fighters are going to tap most bases out of Trit and Moly. The best hulls are low-Duranium. Ergo, Moly is rarest by a large margin, and Trit (the most common found) comes in second. The Empire needs massive mined Moly stocks everywhere. (They also need fuel.)

(3) The Privateer builds zillions of tiny ships, most of which need high-end engines and nothing else. Engines cost lots of Moly. Therefore, Moly is your scarce mineral.

You see where I'm going with this? For some races it's Trit; for others it's Moly, for a very few it's Duranium, and for all but the Colonies and the light-ship races it's fuel. Also, each supply cluster will have one that's less common than the others.

So you find that one (which will be your min-max), target good likely mining centers for it, and max the mines there. In lesser planets, you do a local min-max for it, keeping mines generally low in number (40? 80?) and on local important-native worlds, you keep mines VERY low regardless (30?), using a local min-max to "tune" the number of mines as per my method in the preceding post.

But you start with your race FIRST and move on from there. Use the general "rules of thumb" and native-dependent min-maxing. After that, it's a matter of maxing mines in targeted spots.

The only place where there's an ideal build is, curiously, Factories on important-native worlds. THERE you can use the formula you're looking for. Elsewhere, it's valueless, IMO -- unless you're looking for local maximae relative to rounding errors in production.
1578 days, 0 hours, 40 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
I guess what I'm saying is, you use a METHOD rather than a pure FORMULA in most cases. A method is programmable, incidentally. :o)
1578 days, 0 hours, 6 minutes ago
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ra
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Regarding your home world question:

I always max out the mines on my home world. I play the privateers so I can build ladies for money, and with ladies I do not have to worry about taxing so much. Also I like to build lots of merlins. I can't do that before the ship limit if I'm scrounging nearby planets for minerals that could have been mined up on my home world instead.

This does not get to the heart of your question, but it is a practical outcome in this game. It is also a good reason to consider race and racial abilities along with your mineral requirements prior to the ship limit in your formula.

A strategy (or tweak) I use for non-home world planets that you should consider in your model is to build lots of mines without lots of population. If your algorithm is good, the number of mines will be reduced over time as the minerals get depleted. Then you can populate the planet with minimal mines present...Ra
1577 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes ago
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ra
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
@Tom Graves

I tend to not tax bovinoids until they reach their maximum population growth. The compounded growth of the supplies under maximized population growth more than compensates for it, assuming the temperature is good enough to support a large enough colony population to take advantage of it...Ra
1577 days, 22 hours, 58 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
I'm not in disagreement with the fact that different races have different priorities when it comes to minerals, and that one likely doesn't have the population to just go around maxing out every planet... that's "real world" economics and I will get to that eventually... what I'm after is, all things being equal and ideal ie. a "neutral" race (I know one doesn't exist, but imagine if there was race with no advantages or disadvantages), no war to fight, and you have all the resources you need to build up a planet however you see fit, and you're given the job simply to extract the minerals in the shortest amount of time while maintaining some "more-than-minimum" level of population growth and taxation... once there is a clear "algorithm" in place for that, one can begin to tailor the algorithm for specific races and specific situations...
1577 days, 22 hours, 21 minutes ago
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talespin
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
It seems to me that ZZ is trying to develop a mathematical break-through, like pi or the pythagorean theorem, which really isn't going to happen in a game that's designed to be human-driven. In other words, there's too many variables. And if you succeed in creating such an "algorithm", it probably would be banned as a cheat. That's like creating a bot to mine gold in an MMO.
1577 days, 22 hours, 12 minutes ago
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dotman
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
You seem to be asking a lot of questions. Have you done any computations yet?

I mean, what I'm saying is, I have, I'm sure others have, the formulas are out there, what have you come up with?

You'll find it depends a lot on the various factors that go into the formulae, namely the timescale you're iterating over and the tax strategy that you use. There is no 'one' algorithm.
1577 days, 21 hours, 24 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Maybe it would be "considered" a cheat, people have the right to consider whatever they want to consider... as far as I'm concerned, I'm using information that is available to anyone... if I want to take a deeper look into the mechanics of the game and the interrelatedness of the information and use tools (again, that are available to everyone) to analyse that information and use it to help me be more successful, I don't think that's cheating... I'm not "hacking" anything... and remember that we are playing a war game... this is what successful militaries do... you might have romantic notions about it, but I don't... the goal is to win a war, and beyond literally breaking the game mechanics, I don't think someone who is paying more attention to the information provided by the game itself could be called cheating...
1577 days, 21 hours, 9 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Yes, I'm asking a lot of questions... it's a great way to benefit from the experience of others... so far I've learned that this approach is not as common as I thought it would be...

And yes, I have been playing around with a spreadsheet... I've inputted various data supplied by the game and used formulae to start to model a planet over multiple turns... I haven't got an "answer" yet but using the results from these formulae I'm beginning to see how it could work...
1577 days, 20 hours, 16 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
@Zappazapper: "does anybody have a mathematical method of determining the optimal number of mines to build on each planet"

Using the Planetary Management Plugin button 'Planet Detail' added on the Planet interface panel... you can then see how long each mineral will take to be mined out by the current Mines. Then scrolling to the right you can see the predicted results if you had 20, 50, 100, 200 Mines... scrolling down you have a 50 Turn prediction about Colonists, Natives, tax taking your tax method into account...

You basically want this but presented probably the same way I do, with little sliders where I adjust the variables or lock certain things from changing (like maintain X growth rate overall).





@Talespin: Planetary Management Plugin script pretty much is a Turn-based equivalent of a mining bot. However being Turn-based no one cares if you save time by using a script. In fact, this script enabled me to double the amount of games I could play (4 to 8)... although I don't recommend more than 4 games at a time even with scripts.
1577 days, 19 hours, 41 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Then solve for the rounding errors for, say, an 11%.

But I think you'd be foolish not to analyze races individually to establish your baseline. If you're only looking at one mineral, it'll make things a lot easier to solve.
1577 days, 19 hours, 25 minutes ago
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dajonez
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
I agree that the timing of getting the minerals out is significantly more important than maximizing efficiency....so much so that efficiency should rarely factor into any decisions. Which minerals do you need, how fast do you need them, and where do you need them. For me, usually money is no object. I'll sacrifice something in the future almost always if it makes the present move faster. Just my opinion and style of play.
1577 days, 16 hours, 54 minutes ago
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j-zan
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Hmmmm, this may be wrong for your purposes: "consider that there is an equivalence between supplies and MCs... you can sell a supply for one MC... you can't buy supplies, but that doesn't change the fact that a supply is worth 1 MC..."

I've used a similar assumption regularly, and when I calculate out my economics, I don't use the "MC" as my reduced currency, because MC's are illiquid. Instead, I always price things out in terms of RS (Raw Supply Cost). Supplies can become MC, Minerals, Torps, Fighters, Ships, SB's, etc... - but nothing can be back-transferred to supplies (barring "land and disassemble or colonize" missions).

You're considering the effect of mine production (but not factory production?) on population/taxation. Which means you're comparing Raw Supply values (the minerals equivalent to supplies+alchemy) against potential lost MC. Since RS can become MC but MC cannot become RS - I'd want to bias the math a bit in favor of RS (or minerals), if I were you. Otherwise, you may find an optimum (that is too MC heavy) which in live gameplay is actually, sub-optimal.
1577 days, 15 hours, 47 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
That's all true, but I was just trying to find some kind of equivalence... the argument has been, which I'm inclined to agree with, that even though it might cost 3 supplies to make 1 mineral with a Merlin, doesn't mean that 1 mineral is worth 3 supplies... but that equivalence is as close as one can come... so whether it's in supplies or MCs, it's still not completely accurate, but at least it's some kind of hard metric you can use as a comparison, vs the idea that some minerals are worth more to other races, which is true but there is no way to come up with a number to represent that worth... Finding an optimum requires some sort of common metric and baring the discovery of a more accurate metric, supply units/MCs will have to do...
1577 days, 15 hours, 36 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
You're not being terribly flexible there, are you, ZZ?

Think chess pawn values on varying ranks.
1577 days, 14 hours, 29 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
"Think chess pawn values on varying ranks"
Please elaborate...

Any perception of me being "inflexible" is likely due to my own inability to communicate accurately. My apologies. I read all of the responses more than once and try to understand the point as best I can. Having said that, a lot of what I've been reading has the common theme of "not possible", and you would be correct to assume that I'm not interested in that, although it doesn't annoy me, it's just that it's not going to help me so I ignore it. But generally, the responses have helped to shape my understanding so far, and if I can't change my mind as quickly as some would like, I apologize but i can't help that.
1577 days, 13 hours, 57 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
In chess program logic, point values are assigned to piece-square combinations in order that a computer can use that to determine an advantageous move even when no combination succeeds. So, if there's no free capture, a bishop or rook might move clear of pawn obstruction in order to improve its value.

The simplest instance of this, though, is the value of the space a pawn is on.

For those who don't know chess: Pawns only move forward, and only capture diagonally. Once they reach the other side of the board, though, they get promoted, becoming a far more valuable piece.

A pawn on the second rank (which is where pawns start the game) has a low value. Move it forward, it becomes marginally more valuable each step. The value continues to increase until it reaches the sixth and seventh ranks, where it's worth ALMOST the value of the piece that it might become.

A chess program, therefore, will use this logic to advance a pawn when there's no better move.

Supplies on a planet that is very far from other planets are similar in value to a pawn on the second rank. (Actually, they're worse; if someone else comes and captures the planet from you, they're a liability. But that's too complicated for this.) The amount of fuel required to either bring a Merlin or Refinery to the Supplies or bring the Supplies to the Merlin is excessive considering their value, and often a player will simply convert them to cash and send a small ship to go pick them up.

Therefore, supplies on a rim planet are actually worth LESS than their cash value, because you need to send a ship a long way for them. Supplies on a planet below a Merlin, however, are worth MORE than their cash value -- and if you have no minerals, they're worth substantially more.
1577 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
This brings up an additional point: If you want a ship -- let's say a Gorbie, for the sake of argument -- then you need the following:
(1) a teched-up starbase
(2) 300 Duranium, 500ish Tritanium, and 900ish Molybdenum. That'll give you good guns and good engines.
(3) 120-150 fighters

Now, if you've got all the minerals, but you don't have a nearby starbase, they're all but worthless without
(1) starbase minerals
and
(2) 15000+ in cash

If you've got the starbase and all the minerals except the Duranium, then 300 Duranium is worth the price of a Gorbie all by itself. Likewise the Trit and the Moly.

So you can see that the material worth the most is whichever one you happen to be missing.

Ergo, since some races require masses of Moly, for them Moly is the most important. For others, Trit might be more valuable; for others, Duranium or Neutronium. Birds find cash to be more important than minerals, so Birds might want fewer mines in general.
1577 days, 12 hours, 30 minutes ago
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j-zan
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Hold on Gnerphk; that both is, and isn't, true.

In a vacuum, it's easy to say that the mineral you don't have is worth more than the minerals you do have. Thus it's true.... But that vacuum scenario doesn't match a real sector where you are managing logistics well. Thus it's false.

Let's state it obviously - no amount of "optimization" is going to substitute proper logistics and forward planning. But with proper planning, optimization can be a way to eek out a bit more from your production.
1577 days, 12 hours, 27 minutes ago
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j-zan
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
@zappazapper

I have used the common metric to aid in a variety of situations. My suggestion about MC being less flexible is just to have you consider weighting (or biasing) your math to ensure usable results.
1577 days, 11 hours, 51 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
:o) "Eke".

No; that's true. Nevertheless, if a player wishes to build 20 high-speed Gorbies and 30 starbases before the Ship Limit, that player's gonna need a ton of Tritanium and rather more Molybdenum, but not much Duranium. On the other hand, if a different player wants 20 teched-up Dark Wings, he's gonna need a ton of cash and Moly, but rather less of the other minerals.

And both players are gonna want a couple of massively-populated Bovinoid planets nearby, a vast source of cash income, and at least one Merlin. That last requires vast sums of Duranium, which is low-density on the homeworld, so in the opening stages, these players will need to find and mine out a vast stock of Duranium.

I suggest, then, that one ought to set targets every few turns, and aim at those targets. Optimize within that framework, if you will, but make the framework valid for the situation. If practicable, of course, one ought to prepare in advance for the upcoming paradigm, but that's it.

Another example: Let's say you want nothing other than 30 starbases before the Ship Limit. In that case, you'll want freight transport, and you'll want to tune production on each world that contains the necessary minerals for a starbase such that it will have them on the surface in plenty of time. Likewise, you'll need the Merlin (see above post) and (to save money and mats) likely a ship to tow it around from place to place.

But once the Limit is close, you might wish instead to build some heavy ships. Well, then, the paradigm should shift accordingly.

Post-limit, things stabilize, however. Perhaps the ideal paradigm sought by the O.P. should be designed for that period at first and then refined or modified for other situations.
1577 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes ago
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j-zan
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
@Gnerphk, I agree, more or less.

Note: I have an edit button - your foolish attempts to correct my typos are obsolete! =)
1577 days, 11 hours, 5 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
:o) "tyops"
1577 days, 11 hours, 2 minutes ago
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j-zan
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
@Gnerphk Hey! Now you're just flat out making things up!

(Sorry to the original poster for this deviation.)
1577 days, 10 hours, 58 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Hee hee hee. Madeja look. :o))
1577 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
The point I'm trying to make is that this whole mines "optimization" thing is just one small part of my intended system, and right now it is only aimed at gaining a better understanding of the interrelatedness of the different classes of material. Applying that understanding to real world game situations will obviously involve many different variables, and will also be subject to strategic choice by the user.
1577 days, 4 hours, 6 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
And everyone else are pointing out the variables for a complex calculations are too varied to be worthy of the time to come up with a vast spread sheet.

To work out the mass dynamics you would have to enter the mass in the planet. The density / extraction rate. Then all three have to be related to each other.

Then you have the mineral importance factor of each race. As people point out every race has a different ship build and prefer different minerals.

If the planet has natives on there will be the temperature of the planet. How much minerals and the times scale you want to remove it and how this effects the taxes you want.

But then you would have to factor in the chance of it being taken by a hostile. No point in mining out a mineral rich planet in 20 turns if its on the border of your empire near a hostile and all your efforts will be taken off you.

Or a planet on a safe border that will only be visited once every 10 turns.

Also you need to know the number of clans you need to reach the maximum mining / taxation potential.

It would be best to come up with a list of guidelines:

1) Set your mines on your home world to max in the first few turns (especially for the Feds / but not so important for L:izards).

2) Planets with no minerals set to mine out in 20 / 30 / 50 turns.

3) Planets with natives on take into account the temperature / government / native population and if you value mineral extraction over long term MC generation.

A complex spread sheet will take for ever to formulate. Would not cover all eventualities and in the long run would be better covered by a list of guidelines with link to the current calculators that already exist.

Once you have gathered all these guidelines I am sure you could publish it in Planets Magazine as an article (if its not been done already)

Most people do not go into that much detail. Its too complex to be worth the time to find out that to extract the minerals and keep the maximum MC production for 50 turns and extract most of the minerals I need X mineral mines and y factories.

Normally for me its get the population on a planet to be able to tax at 0 to -5 happiness before taxation reduction due to factories and mines (worked out the turn after landed on). Factories to max and then mineral mines to a set level based on how much minerals and their density.

No fancy spread sheet required.
1577 days, 3 hours, 43 minutes ago
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okami
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
Hello,

a very interesting discussion!

Gnerphk point to the documentation for tax and growth an planets.nu
http://play.planets.nu/#/howtoplay/taxes-details
And here I read for the first time that:
"If there are more than 66,000 clans on a planet, the population growth is cut in half."
I try to check this with the VGA Planets Calculator
http://www.vgaplanets.ca/vgapcalc.php#tax_happy
but it seems that the calculator do not have this cutting in its formula (or do I miss something?)
Up until now vgapc was a reliable resource of information.
Do anyone know more about the differences of vgapc and planets.nu?

Thanks!
1576 days, 21 hours, 39 minutes ago
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zappazapper
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
The spreadsheet is simply a tool that can do the job required - not developing a real world tool to use in games, but as a way to study the game mechanics... a spreadsheet is to cumbersome for a real world situation... that would be better served by a plugin, which I know nothing about and would require the assistance of others, but there's no point in asking anybody to help me with that until I have a working knowledge of how the information provided can be used...
1576 days, 9 hours, 42 minutes ago
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ghostwriter
RE: some thoughts on building mineral mines... there has to...Write Reply
@Okami: ...66,000 clans on planet = pop. growth cut in half. .. Does anyone know more about the differences of vgapc and planets.nu?

i am not familiar with vgapc but both colonists AND natives have their growth cut in half when their planet pop. exceeds 66,000 clans. this is the same in planets 3.0 [aka THost] as well as NU... i believe that PHost also follows that rule.