Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

« Back

1824 days, 2 hours, 31 minutes ago

tanaka

Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots, and Colonies) and needs replacement commanders! Unless you join as the feds, you're going to be a fair bit behind but... no pain no gain, right?

http://planets.nu/#/sector/112933

1823 days, 23 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

I guess i will never unterstand the tenacity calculation, actual example for the fed player who quit

http://play.planets.nu/#/account/igintaras/history

How is it possible with 7 quits in a row to keep 100% raw tenacity?

1823 days, 22 hours, 11 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

http://play.planets.nu/#/post/mercenaries-chameleon-devices-forgivenacity-and-more

Neither Beginner games nor Melees count against your tenacity if you resign. That's all this player joins.

1823 days, 21 hours, 6 minutes ago

apollyon_maximus

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Tenacity system is broken imo.

Better to do your own research.

1823 days, 20 hours, 17 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

The problem is that if the site can't improve the tenacity system (or switch to a completely different system) then public games will continue to be disappointing. Of course I could spend some hours to reaearch the history of every player of a new game but that is not fun.
And what should I do if some joined before me or joins after me who seems to be a quitter? Don't join the game or quit again if I have already joined? And wait some weeks or - for specific formats - months until the next suitable game opens? And then have a 90% chance that it's the same again? Not satisfying.
Private games like the great Die Hard series or invitaional games like the championships are the only solution at the moment. But this can't be the only possibilitly for good quality games which this site wants to offers, or?

1823 days, 19 hours, 54 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

I completely agree!
But none came up with a suitable solution/suggestion so far.

Perhaps it is not the tenacity system itself but perhaps a new game format may help - smaller games that run a shorter time or with a fixed number of turns.
I guess beginners usually underestimate the time effort it needs for a 11-player game.
And once you think you're behind as beginner chances are high you may quit.
So a beginners / introductury game format perhaps only needs 4-5 positions, perhaps smaller maps to give beginners a successful game to keep them hooked and stay with the game, then advancing to standard games ones they get the right feeling?

1823 days, 19 hours, 47 minutes ago

lordlancelot

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Yes we need a new public format but not only for new players for everybody. 50% smaller map, with 250 planets.

1823 days, 19 hours, 12 minutes ago

mule

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Only games that count towards tenacity should award points. Then these games can just be considered "fun games" and who cares if someone drops. That should increase the chances for the remaining players.

I do like the idea of smaller - shorter beginner games. We did something like that with a series of custom games we called Micro Games that were a lot of fun.

1823 days, 18 hours, 45 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

I appears more and more people are thinking of heading towards private games for most of their games with the occasional site run game.

People can set up games with their own set of rules and different host settings.

What I would like to see is more support for these games.

1) Private game introduction section. Area that show private games like the current site games. Doesn't disappear down the forums. It can be sub divided into different types. Eg Melee, standard, campaign, team game, wacky host settings etc. You describe the game format you want (possibly with the host settings visible for all) and you then collect names to decide if the host wants to let them play.

2) More host modification possible. If people want cloaking fail or cyborg assimilation rate etc the host can be configured for private games. Games description flags these changes (as previous possibly the game is set up with a list of the host settings but with a password for each player slot).

So someone is looking for a no PBP manipulation game they can find it. If they want to play a manipulation free for all they can find it. Planet to ship limit games no problem. Game with no Cyborg, here it is. etc

These private games can be changed into public games if they fit a certain criteria.

Help people finds games and keeps them happy and paying their subs.

1823 days, 18 hours, 31 minutes ago

mule

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

@martinr: I couldn't agree more!!!

I have done everything but beg (and I'm not sure I haven't done that) to get a persistent page/links/listing for Player Created Custom Games.
I resist the word Private because that is the last thing I want most games I host to be. The term "Private" should be reserved for games you really want to keep private.

I went so far as to make my own web page to provide a listing like this and simply posted a link to it on the feed every day, but some players took exception to that. I finally just gave up, but if anyone else wants to pick up the banner, I'll be right behind you cheering you on! :)

More choices of all kinds... yes! If they are bad choices and nobody wants to play them, problem solved. If they are good choices, that's a win-win.

1823 days, 18 hours, 13 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Yeah, totally agree that a "private games" tab on the "games list" page would have an incredible ROI.

A little bit but not completly off topic "quitters" I want to explain why private games don't solve my issue. I want to play public games that have a somehow standarized environment. The reason is the leaderboard. If you don't care about the leaderboard the following won't mean much for you. But me and a lot of other players like to compete in a league. For us this adds a lot of meta game fun to the single game fun. Such a league needs somehow similar settings to produce comparable results. IMHO it's already wrong that standard, melee and campaign games qualify to the same - standard! - championship games. But ok, I can live with that. It's still a pity if championship participants who qualified only through melee and campaign games utterly fail and unbalance a game which demands one year of extreme dedication of the players.
Anyway, this is the reason why I long for good quality, somehow comparable games which count towards the leaderboard. This we have not. The reintroduced difficulty modifier help a little but is far from a final solution. Many said that a lader system or a system of 2-3 legues would be a betterapproach then the curent one.

1823 days, 17 hours, 47 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

I like the term 'Player Hosted." However, WARNING: The only thing worse than a game with dropped players is a game with a dropped Host.

I would like to see Player Hosted games that are on the "New Games" page. However, I would want all such Hosts allowed there to be vetted by Joshua (or a committee he sets up). They should have some minimum qualifications. These could include:

1. Minimum time a member (1 year?)

2. Minimum number of games completed from start to finish (3?)

3. Maximum number of games allowed to host (3-6?)

1823 days, 17 hours, 44 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Yes "custom games" would be better than private as the aim is to get them started as private games and then brought into site games so they gain campaign points etc if they pass the limits Joshua sets.

As Emork said Melee and campaign games go towards championship games so if its got more rules than the three rules or a slightly different host setting should this bar them from being able to gain campaign points?

Ladder systems are interesting but with games lasting six months to a year this would make it a very long ladder!

Possibly a fixed turn ladder league? 50 turns. Still a long time but a fixed set of time. At 50 turns you get so many points for being first second and third etc.

It may take years but this will at least indicate the winners and not the people who farm resources to get there rank and access to the champions games.

Flexibility is the key thing.

Set up sections where people with different playing styles can find games they like playing.

Advertised custom games for people who like playing in a certain way.

Leader board games for those who want to play in games to prove who is the best of the best.

Everyone plays the games they want.

They don't drop when they find they have joined a game they don't like.

Everyone is happy and playing games and paying their subs.

1823 days, 17 hours, 40 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

An even more radical idea:

Make FoF standard. All open positions will now have a decent number of planets.

Combine the "New Games" with the "Open Games." Do not add new games unless there are less than 20 New/Open Games available.

This will keep games filled.

1823 days, 17 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

I think it's a bit unreasonable to assume that if a player who mainly plays melee or campaign games would utterly fail in a championship game.
If you can win a melee game or a campaign game you can win a regular one too.
I play all three and deep down it's always the same game.
Campaign games give you more toys and melee games force you to come out fighting.
But those games are still won with the same combination of logistics , tactics and diplomacy as regular games.

That being said I agree , leagues would be more fun. Melee league , Campaign league , Classic league and perhaps a Team league.
But they should be given equal value , winning a melee league would be just as challenging as winning a Classic one.

1823 days, 17 hours, 19 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Siggi, dig into champ games and you find some lack of even basic knowledge. You may be right that the cause for the PAST games lies not mainly in the different qualifying formats but mostly in the fact that you can qualify by winning newbie games only. But I think that melee and campaign gained a lot in attention and we'll see future campionship players who never played a standard game. I agree that the mid to end game of a melee is similar to a standard game but the early game is not at all. Not to speak if you are used to certain campaign advantages. Champ game are not very forgiving and you have no time to learn in such a game. If you don't know the format you're definitively sub par.

That said, being a melee or campaign champion is of course as much worth as being a standard champion. Just don't mix them because we know how much advantage you get if your neighbours play poor or how much disadvanatge if the neighbours of your opponents play poor.

1823 days, 17 hours, 7 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

I have in fact dug a little into the championship games and frankly I agree.
Some players did clearly not deserve to get there.
What's more I once took over a dropped game by a player who played in a championship. Now I make no claims to be any good myself but I was amazed at how crappy that position was in. He didn't even bother to build mines or factories on his planets , I think out of 30 or so he had developed around 8.

And that was not the fault of campaign or melee games :)
But honestly I think you will always get 1 or 2 of these in any championship , even if leagues were formed.
That's just unavoidable.

1823 days, 17 hours, 7 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

I think Melee/Campaign game formats are a much smaller change from the championship game format than Max Ally = 1.

Also, the people in the first 2 or 3 championship games got their points from military score which doesn't even have a winner. Most games were finished by unanymous vote.

The only games that prepare you for the championship game is the max ally = 0 officer games.

1823 days, 16 hours, 52 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

I agree with both of you, Siggi and Mjs. I think we should try to find a good compromise between making qualifying games too hard (like max ally = 0 which is hell) and too soft (like entering a champ game after just winning 5 campaign melees with difficulty 0,67). There is some room for improvement.

1823 days, 16 hours, 49 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

True. Hey you're the Emperor , can't you wave your hand and make it so?

1823 days, 16 hours, 47 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Hehe, emperor just by the grace of the maker (Joshua).

1823 days, 16 hours, 22 minutes ago

mule

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Leagues - thumbs up on the idea. But, to fill a Championship game, would you need playoffs to sort between leagues and races?

I also see the problem with ladders and length of games. Just a wild haired idea - just for a ladder, what if we cut up the game scores / planet counts into monthly segments. Average it so the people playing more games don't get an advantage. Plug the monthly numbers into a ladder. Might work!

1823 days, 14 hours, 7 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

By the way Emork you do realize you're basically saying Joesnoffy should not be qualified to play in the championship ;)
Who is by all accounts and judging by what I've heard an excellent player.
So like I say it's pretty difficult to really tell who deserves it and who doesn't. Right up until they start in the championship that is.

1823 days, 13 hours, 47 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Proposition 1: If you qualify with easy games only it is not proven that you are good.

Proposition 2: If you qualify with easy games only it is proven that you are not good.

I said 1 but I didn't say 2. At least I think so. For sure I meant it this way :) I won the first giant melee together with the player in question and we had some of the best opponents.

1823 days, 13 hours, 42 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Heh like I said I'm not doubting his ability.
Just saying that with any qualifier there's always exceptions :)
Some people may prefer easy games despite being extremely skilled. And vice versa.

1823 days, 13 hours, 37 minutes ago

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

Here is my two cents, but since I'm a rather simple logical thinker, do what you will with the suggestions.

1. Scoring, make it a 2 year rolling system. Anything older than 2 years gets removed. Like everything in life, it's all about what have you done for me lately. This has been a proven model from Golf and Tennis, should work well on planets.

2. Tenacity should never have been grandfathered in. Start from the day it was introduced. Over time, the rating would provide value. Same as above, 2 year rolling system. But also, nothing over 100%. When you see a tenacity over 100% you start to realize how useless the scoring is. And this is speaking from example, i have a tenacity over 100% yet I dropped some games very early on in my time at .nu for various reasons. I appreciate the up-tick in the tenacity rating as I have been solid ever since I realized the impact of dropping, but my score should also reflect that. Once 2 years rolls around, then my tenacity would take in consideration what I have done lately.

So in a nutshell, keep it simple, keep it fair and make it so it's easy to understand.

1823 days, 12 hours, 3 minutes ago

countryreaper

RE: Thi Alpha Chi sector had four droppers (Feds, Birds, Bots,...

I agree that the tenacity system is off. You can look at my history and see that it is off. I have a 100% even though i haven't completed a game yet and have dropped out of a couple games. I'm not proud that i did drop out of those, just pointing it out.