This is coming in context of Libra game and is targeted to...

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20 days, 8 hours, 4 minutes ago
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elvon
This is coming in context of Libra game and is targeted to...Write Reply
This is coming in context of Libra game and is targeted to make vassal situations less feasible and harder to achieve.

What i propose is to make Home World be something more, than just another planet. This could be done in several ways:
1) make FoF limit higher, if you loose your HW. Lets say double the normal amount. This should make both for vassal to escape harder and more expensive for it to be sustained. Also easy to understand and to implement.
2) tie some/all of race abilities (like Crystal webs) to its HW. And i mean race abilities, not ship abilities. Either outright disable them, if race does not own its HW, or even better, give them a chance to fail. Make this chance to grow the longer HW is lost.

This idea can be expanded, but I think the gist of it should be clear enough.

PS As a side effect this adds one more weakness to every race, that can be targeted ... which in my opinion is good thing.

Elvon
20 days, 6 hours, 37 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: This is coming in context of Libra game and is targeted to...Write Reply
But this would also effect non Vassals. A early game head shot by a cloaking race would also effect other games.

So increasing the might of the cloaking races by finding a HW and taking it out, doubling the FoF could force a player from the game or dramatically weaken them for an assault.

Maybe Crystal players need to learn to be less weak and give in to offers of Vassalage? Take one for the rest of the players and fall on their sword and fight to the end against their enemies, reject olive branches etc.
20 days, 6 hours, 31 minutes ago
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elvon
RE: This is coming in context of Libra game and is targeted to...Write Reply
As I mentioned earlier, the fact, that it will affect all races is a good thing.

Cloaking races can already take out HW and all you have to do to get rid of penalty is retake your HW back.
20 days, 6 hours, 29 minutes ago
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greywolf
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Whilst I am not a fan of vassal states I do understand why they exist. They primarily exist to exact revenge. A dish best served cold!

I like Elvon's idea. I would suggest a 50% increase in the FoF planet limit for the loss of a homeworld. The homeworld loss should be a large impact in morale for the empire in the same way the Modzilla obtains a lift for capturing it.

Early headshots will not eliminate players. Given the distances involved and colonisation possible in those early days and the extremely low FoF values at the start of the game.

It will mean the cost of carrying a vassal is expensive in planets for the host. At the moment in Libra, Hiko is giving up over 30 planets to allow revenge to be exacted!

That is expensive too remember.


GW
20 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes ago
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robobob
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If you want to carry a vassal just give them back their homeworld. Easy workaround if this were implemented.
20 days, 6 hours, 3 minutes ago
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elvon
RE: This is coming in context of Libra game and is targeted to...Write Reply
Sure, but to do that you have to have access to vassals HW. Not so easy, if you took in a refugee from other side of sector. On the other hand, if you are the one who took out that race, then:
1) it is less likely that vassal will be made or if it is, then you might be the one risking getting back-stabbed from your vassal (revenge)
2) there is always a chance your opponents will target your vassal HW to get rid of it
3) you actually worked to take out this player and if somebody deserves to have a vassal it is you.

This is not a silver bulled solution and you always can engineer a specific scenarios where it wouldn't work. It is meant to make it harder and less likely.

Elvon
20 days, 4 hours, 55 minutes ago
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ghostrider
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everything we know of the colonial is based on the fight after a species looses its home unreversably
20 days, 4 hours, 49 minutes ago
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elvon
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@Ghostrider
Oh, I see, you are suggesting we penalize Colonials right from the start? ;)
20 days, 4 hours, 43 minutes ago
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ghostrider
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negative there should be greater rewards in surviving the loss of ones home
20 days, 4 hours, 15 minutes ago
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talespin
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@Elvon I don't like the sound of the loss of a HW seriously hurting you. On the surface, it sounds feasible, but it doesn't sit right with me. Besides, the HW isn't that important later on in the game.

An aside: I would like to see a Design feature that makes the HW the main thing, so if you lost your HW you were out. But that's just so I can create certain scenarios :D

@Elvon However, I do understand the frustration with vassals. It's frustrating to hear of players playing "kingmaker". Just fight, damn it! lol

I'd like to see vassals possibly COST the dominant race something. If you keep a few planets of a race around, then it should cost you somehow. Maybe even a Diplomacy setting called "Vassalship" or something like that.

One idea I had was to have Safe Passage/Shared Intel SAP RESOURCES from the empire offering it, in order to maintain it. It's not easy to maintain safe passage with ships and minefields or to spread around information. That should cost an empire to do that.

For example, if I give Safe Passage to a another player, 5% of my resources are depleted to maintain that Safe Passage. Maybe it increases to 10% with Shared Intel. And then when you declare a Full Alliance, it drops back to 0% (This is to give more incentive to declaring alliances earlier.)

In fact, there could be an additional Diplomacy setting added to balance this:
Send Ambassador
Cease Fire (no ship vs ship combat)
Safe Passage (increases to include minefields and planets) 5% resource depletion
Shared Intel (as it is now) 10% resource depletion
Full Alliance (as it is now) 0% resource depletion

I think it would take a bit of a change to the current Diplomacy setup and players would have to adapt, but I feel it could make games more enjoyable.
20 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes ago
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renathras
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Not to nitpick everyone, but I've seen something like 3-5 proposals for pretty major rules changes in just the last two weeks or so (I think; it feels like a relatively short time), all in response to the big Championship war.

...changes that would effect the ENTIRE game and all non-Championship games in a big way, all to supposedly balance Championship games.

Planets is already a game whose balance can be compared to a sword, balanced tip on, to the edge, of the very tip, of another sword; constantly in a state of moments away from falling completely...and yet these changes are like taking a sledgehammer and beating on the precariously balanced sword. These are not small tweaks that only impact very high levels of play or nibble around the edges of imbalance the watch to see how they pan out before making additional changes. These are pretty fundamental changes to how the game on the whole is played, across multiple (or all) races, and across dozens (or all) of the rule sets.

I'd say you all need to take a breath and play your game under the rules that were established at its outset - you know, like good sportsmen/women/persons - and not try to fundamentally change large parts of the game because you're upset about something happening in this one game right now, or this one class of game.

There's a lot of Planets Nu besides the Championship games. Don't let your squabbling among giants lead to trampling entire villages and all the common people living there who you otherwise have no dealings with.
20 days, 3 hours, 49 minutes ago
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elvon
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@Renathras
If you think about it closely my suggestion will have very little effect on balance of games and will mainly affect specific situations of heavy dis-balance.

The same way you do, I don't think sweeping changes to balance are required or advisable.

And lastly vassal problem is not phenomenon unique to championship games. You can see it outside of those as well.
20 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes ago
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regicide
RE: This is coming in context of Libra game and is targeted to...Write Reply
The changes are to balance all games, not just Championship games.
( at lease the one I suggested was )

Mine was not a major change to game balance just a small shift from webs working ion Storms to not working. It would have an impact on the Crystals as would removed there ably it to take over any space that was an ion Strom fly through it. To having to look to maybe defend vs an attack that could not be planed in advantage when an ion storm goes through there space. Plus Ion storms can disappear at any time for a few reasons. still makes sending in a fleet to attack the Crystals a Big risk. As Webs would still work in the ion Storm as long as the center of the Mine field is outside the ion Storm. Same way it works now for sweeping mines in ion storms. This would not make it easy to take out the crystals it would just make it harder for them to just walk in and take over.

20 days, 1 hours, 54 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
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Taking over the Privteers Home world is easy. They should not be penalized for losing there Home world. (unless is a special kill HW game)
They can't easy take it back with there own ships. one Dw cloaked over there HW would meed they would have to send in 10 meteors to kill and Then how many more to take out the Starbase?

The EE and Borg on the other hand can just send in Heavy Carriers and it should be there's again.
We can just set fof 3-4 vs 5 that would makes a big different. like you said it option 1.
20 days, 1 hours, 34 minutes ago
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elvon
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@Regicide
In Privateer vs Birds, if Bird is in position to take out Privs HW, then Priv is screwed either way.
18 days, 21 hours, 4 minutes ago
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glynsalternate
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Tangent suggestion incoming; I wouldn't mind a game format where losing your HW kills you, 'capture the flag' essentially.
18 days, 19 hours, 42 minutes ago
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mursu
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I like the suggestion to double the planets required for surviving FoF when your HW is lost. As said, this isn't a big deal in early game and you can take your HW back if you have combat power in the first place.

The good sides are that this makes HWs nice strategic targets and accelerates hostilities. Of course also vassals would be harder to maintain. All in all a very elegant solution with few drawbacks.

There could be a point made for Privateers (for game play purposes) and Colonies (for fluff purposes) but this is only a possibility for a new racial bonus to avoid the penalties for HW loss.
18 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes ago
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maximus1776
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As one of the targets of the Crystal retribution in Libra, I've given considerable thought to the recent debate about changing the game mechanics. This applies to oversharing of tech, multi-way alliances, and vassal situations in solo-win games like championships. Especially at this level, strategic anticipation of possible outcomes, flawless execution, and shrewd diplomacy are minimum requirements to even have a chance at earning the mantle of Emperor. The interpersonal aspect in diplomacy and negotiation is usually the most important factor, though. The fact that @Hiko (and to a degree, @Greywolf ) have convinced multiple other players to provide considerable support in a solo-win game is a testament to their capability. The other players are (or should be) savvy enough to know when they are being manipulated against their own best-interests. If they don’t, that’s more evidence to Hiko/Greywolf’s diplomatic prowess.

Another measure to look at is if this dynamic could happen in the real world? Could a persecuted group assist a larger friendly power to exact revenge on a common enemy nation/group? Absolutely. Could nations align themselves with others in a way that is not in their own self-interest? Happens all the time... One of the things I like about Planets in general, and this championship in particular, is that it is a microcosm of geopolitical power struggles and influence that in some ways isn’t too far removed from reality (although I’d like to think that we are usually more cordial chaps than Messrs. Trump, Xi, Putin, Erdogan, Modi, etc.) Generally, I'm in favor of leaving the game configuration as-is, since it allows similar situations to develop when compared to the real world. Lone/Public Wolf certainly have their place, but I think that implementing even subtle aspects of those formats, or otherwise limiting cooperation further, would unduly restrict the diplomatic dimensions of the game.

The primary reason why webs are a plague is because of my failure early in the game. I was somewhat purposefully indecisive in attacking the Crystals after I got caught just outside their HW going for a headshot. My strategy was to let the Crystals and well-equipped Robots fight it out a bit to try to whittle-down the growing Robot threat (sorry Elvon). That was a mistake. I also may have been able to thwart the Crystal exodus via probe, but did not make the attempt. I kept Elvon (Robots) at arms-length for too long, preventing the consolidation of our strength against the real threat(s) in the west. The point of this is that this outcome is the result of several strategic, tactical, and diplomatic errors on my part. I have been weighed and found wanting in this championship, and again realize that I have much more to learn.
18 days, 13 hours, 46 minutes ago
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kelmain
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@Maximus largely expressed my opinion of Crystal webs and basically any powerful synergistic abilities.

Essentially, I see them as a diplomatic problem and not a mechanics problem. Knowledgeable players should be able to recognize and attempt to counter any powerful combination of abilities. When I look at the stats for Libra, it does not appear that Hiko is in an insurmountable position. The fact that, by all accounts, he appears to be the eventual victor at turn 109 is a diplomatic situation and not a tactical one. Change up the players and Libra likely turns out quite differently. Attempting to address a diplomatic problem with a game mechanics change would not be likely to improve the game. It would just serve to steer the game from one diplomatic situation to another.

If we all agreed what the best style of game was, this would be fine. But since we don't, steering the game is just tilting the field in favor of one style of player over another which to me seems arbitrary.
18 days, 11 hours, 28 minutes ago
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chanain
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It's a better idea than most of the others I've seen...

...but it still misses a fundamental game balance point: With the sole exception of the Crystals (and, in low-level games, the Pirates), the most powerful races are powerful because of their fleets, not their racial abilities. Any suggestion that nerfs the use of racial abilities will disproportionately affect the torp races - and they are, generally speaking, more vulnerable to a 'go for the head' kind of strategy anyways.

It would be devastating to the Privateer. A head-shot against the Pirate really isn't that tough: If you know where the HW is, you just send a modest fleet straight there, through deep space, with unpredictable waypoints. Not much a Pirate can do against a concentrated assault. As it stands, it just doesn't work that well - you're putting your whole fleet right in the middle of a den of thieves, and you'll lose it, even if you inflict the damage of a HW loss. But if the HW going down deprived the Pirates of Rob and Tow Capture...well, that changes the dynamic entirely.

I find myself agreeing with Kelmain and Maximus, really...but even if we're of the view that Crystal vassals are a real problem, then the solution has to address the Crystal powers squarely, and not just in a roundabout way that also nerfs other underpowered races. (And quite frankly, I would suggest that the alliance limitations have gone a distance to that already. Pretty sure I'd have hung in there a while longer if the Crystal hadn't been forced to pull Safe Passage from me.)
18 days, 10 hours, 8 minutes ago
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elvon
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@maximus1776
I am not sure comparing this to RL is a proper way of reasoning. There are some techniques that work online much better (trolling or griefing for example) and it only makes sense, that there should be techniques to discourage such behaviors.

@chanain
Affecting race abilities in case of HW loss was just one of possibilities. Besides, ideally I want to affect them gradually the longer HW is gone. For example this could be balanced to not turn on for first 10 turns at all. Also, I really liked @mursu idea, that immunity to this effect could be used as racial bonus if needed.