Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...

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1667 days, 13 hours, 52 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Tow Mystery - Need Help!

I had an incident (twice!) in one of my games in the past where I tried to tow an enemy ship without success. I still don't know what actually happened and would like you to help me analyzing the situation and find it out.

Turn x:
All these ships are at planet #288 (with base):
- Merlin #189 (Warp 9)
- My cloaked D7 #204 (Warp 9)
- Tranquility #398 (Warp 9)
- Rush #498 (Warp 6)
I tried to tow the Merlin 49,7 LY away from the planet. At warp 9.

Turn x+1:
My D7 #204 moved to the target location, but didn't tow the Merlin. I got the message that the Merlin broke the tow-lock: "Our tractor beam was overpowered by MERLIN CLASS ALCHEMY SHIP ID#189 we were unable to tow them."
All three enemy ships (Merlin, Tranquility, Rush) were still at planet #288. I know that because another cloaker of me arrived there.

I know of two options how he could escape the tow-lock:
- His Merlin could have towed another ship away from the planet, before I tow him.
- His Merlin could have moved more than 81 LY at warp 9 to break the tow-lock.
But he obviously didn't use any of these options as his Merlin was still at planet #288 in turn x+1.

So how did he overpower my tow-lock?

Thanks for helping!
Nakor
1667 days, 13 hours, 34 minutes ago
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ra
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I'm not absolutely sure about this, others here are more knowledgable with tow breaks, but I think:

The lower id merlin moved away before your higher numbered ship got its turn to tow it. It could have moved 3 ly into the warp well at warp 9 and been dragged back into planet orbit by gravity well?
1667 days, 13 hours, 25 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Ra is right , that's pretty much the only explanation.
1667 days, 12 hours, 45 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
In order to do that, his Merlin would have had to have set Tow on another ship.

Check out ECV's definitive article on the subject at www.planetsmagazine.com/strategy/strategic-knowledge/straight-talk-about-the-tractor-beam/

It's so definitive, we're linking to it from the official documentation. There's maybe half a dozen articles that get that treatment.
1667 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Bloody broken link. Try this:
www.planetsmagazine.com/strategy/strategic-knowledge/straight-talk-about-the-tractor-beam/
1667 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
But isn't he immediately pulled back to the planet by the warp well?
Then it would already be back there and my D7 can put a tow-lock on it and tow it away.

What Donovan's says sounds like that:
"If successful, tower and target will move away. After moving these two ships, the Host program checks if they are influenced by a warpwell. After that, the Host program moves to the next lowest ID-ship and the process is repeated."
1667 days, 12 hours, 36 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I read ECV's article, but cannot find any explanation for this situation.
1667 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes ago
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ra
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Did your towing ship have more than 25 fuel?
1667 days, 12 hours, 22 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Yes, it had more than enough fuel.
1667 days, 12 hours, 19 minutes ago
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kelmain
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
The only explanation I can think of is that he set a long waypoint and had only one fuel onboard thus moving into the WW and falling back.
1667 days, 12 hours, 13 minutes ago
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kelmain
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
So is there a way for him to get rid of extra fuel after the tow lock? And does the host assess a break at lock or at the time of tow.
1667 days, 12 hours, 10 minutes ago
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kelmain
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Now that I think of it, it is quite possible that a stardrive merlin set to W9 might burn 25 fuel in three lys. I'd need to check that though.
1667 days, 12 hours, 7 minutes ago
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kelmain
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
That's it.
1667 days, 12 hours, 5 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Remember: Donovan's is out of date for a lot of things. If we can get the owner of the ship to communicate directly with the writers of this site's documentation (in this case, me), we can get an answer which, if different, would become part of the current and up-to-date documentation.

I rather like Kelmain's third explanation. Consider that it's likely towing a fully-loaded Rush.
1667 days, 11 hours, 59 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I just tested the theory Ra had at the beginning. That doesn't work.
The Merlin would have been pulled back to the planet and my D7 would have towed it away.

Thanks, Kelmain. Very good idea! I'll test that, too.

1667 days, 11 hours, 40 minutes ago
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alchemist
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
@Kelmain: a W1 Merlin (8xBlasters) uses 26fuel to travel 3LY at Warp9 when empty. So breaking the tow and falling back within the warpwell might be an explanation.
1667 days, 11 hours, 40 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail,

As long as D7 tows at w9, the distance towed doesn't matter (well, it needs to be greater then the warp well or you will fall back into the warp well and have to face his other ships). Even towing him 4 LY he would be unable to break you tow using longwarp (ie warp 9 >81 LY)

I think the only way he can break your tow is simply your original premise. He towed another ship and was GONE before you could tow him. Remember, towing occurs at Host step 55. You both performed this step. Warp well calculation which I take to mean warp well resolutions occurs at step 57. Thus, he doesn't fall back on to the planet until two steps later.


A third way he could have broken tow is if there was a lower ID ship present that towed him. It would have to be a cloaker since you didn't see him. However, we know this did NOT occur because the cloaker would have had to decloak to tow and would have fallen back into the warp well with the Merlin and with your own cloaker present not reporting any other ships you can rule this out.

Cheers,

MEGA



PS How do you run the test scn. Do you need a second player to help test it? I thought even in private games or blitz you couldn't play two races which kind of limits testing certain tactics etc... I have never hosted any type of game on Nu as I wonder if there are downsides (like missing turns, resigned games, tenacity losses) that could show up in my record if I were merely running test scenarios.

Thanks again
1667 days, 11 hours, 38 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail

would have fallen back into the warp well with the Merlin

edit should have read fallen back into the planet (or from the warp well)

Cheers,

MEGA
1667 days, 11 hours, 23 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
"As long as D7 tows at w9, the distance towed doesn't matter (well, it needs to be greater then the warp well or you will fall back into the warp well and have to face his other ships)."

That's true.


"Even towing him 4 LY he would be unable to break you tow using longwarp (ie warp 9 >81 LY)"

That is not true. He would break the tow lock in this case.


"I think the only way he can break your tow is simply your original premise. He towed another ship and was GONE before you could tow him. Remember, towing occurs at Host step 55. You both performed this step. Warp well calculation which I take to mean warp well resolutions occurs at step 57. Thus, he doesn't fall back on to the planet until two steps later."

I checked this in a test game. This doesn't work to escape a tow-lock.
His Merlin would have been pulled back to the planet and my D7 would have towed it away.


"A third way he could have broken tow is if there was a lower ID ship present that towed him. It would have to be a cloaker since you didn't see him. However, we know this did NOT occur because the cloaker would have had to decloak to tow and would have fallen back into the warp well with the Merlin and with your own cloaker present not reporting any other ships you can rule this out."

Yes. Plus I forgot to mention that there was no other cloakers around except my own one. That possibility did not exist as I knew what was going on around.


"PS How do you run the test scn."
When having a premium account you can "design" games. I used this option and created a game with two players: me and a computer player.
1667 days, 10 hours, 43 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail

@Nakor

"Even towing him 4 LY he would be unable to break you tow using longwarp (ie warp 9 >81 LY)"


Yes that is a mistake as you noted as I meant to say regular warp. You could have towed him 4 LY instead of 49 LY or 90 LY waypoint and had the same result with less minefield risk. Longwarp would of course break all these non gravitronic tows. A regular escape attempt at less then 81.5 LY would fail even if you only towed him 4 LY at warp 9


"I checked this in a test game. This doesn't work to escape a tow-lock.
His Merlin would have been pulled back to the planet and my D7 would have towed it away."

Can you explain how you were able to test this using a computer player opponent? You need to control both players no? You would have to set Race 1 Merlin to have a warp 2 or greater and tow some ship into the warp well and then have Race2 higher ID ship succeed in towing him. You can't order a computer to do either of these things so wouldn't you need a human opponent to verify? If you did a test scenario with a human, for a few turns then would it show up in your history as a resign or loss or tenacity loss etc...?

If this is what you did, then what is the warp well calculation really accomplishing at step 57 after the Tim Continuum check at step 56?

Cheers,

MEGA
1667 days, 10 hours, 22 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
The "design game" feature simply didn't allow me to create a game with just 1 player. So I had to put in a second player. I chose to use a computer player so that I can host at any time I want and don't have to consider other persons.

Testing this scenario can be done completely without a second player. I built the according ships myself to test it.


"If this is what you did, then what is the warp well calculation really accomplishing at step 57 after the Tim Continuum check at step 56?"

I think host step 57 has nothing to do with host step 54 (towing).
It is probably for ships which have been pushed by ion storms a bit earlier.
1667 days, 10 hours, 7 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Ok, I tested Kelmain's theory.

Setup:
- Merlin #24 (SD1, 8XR) with 26kt fuel onboard tows LDSF #3 82 LY north - at warp 9. It will burn 29kt fuel on 3 LY.
- D7 #29 tows Merlin #24 at warp 9 to a position 4.5 LY away.
- All mentioned ships are at planet #130.

Result (=next turn):
- LDSF #3 is at planet #130.
- D7 #29 towed Merlin #24 to the specified target location 4.5 LY away from planet #130.

I.e. that is also not the solution.
1667 days, 10 hours, 4 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hi Nakor,


Ok, I think its because I don't know much about hosting the game but I still don't see how you can order a computer to do the tows needed to test the scenario.

Wouldn't the computer merely do what it wants to do in any game? I would think that you need the cooperation of a second player with whom you would have designated ships at the designated planet with the right ship ID order. Only then would attempt the tows and tow breaks to test things. Of course his Merlin(or equivalent ship) would be unable to break your tow if he wasn't set to towing a ship himself and I don't see how you could verify the computer was performing its own tow of its own ship. I think I am probably missing something here to understand how you could perform this test without a second player.

Is there some way in a game you host that you can set the computer's orders and do the test? That would be very sweet if you could do that AND would allow for testing of any tactics and scenarios. I just thought when you host a game you gave the computer its own home planet and it did its own thing regardless of what you were up to.

Cheers,

MEGA
1667 days, 9 hours, 58 minutes ago
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terry anderson
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hey Nakor, I think there might be a chance for tow-locks to fail built into the program because it happened to me as well when I was towing my own ships. (twice in the same game!)
1667 days, 9 hours, 57 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I didn't gave the AI player any orders. I haven't even found him on the map yet.
I'm doing it all with MY OWN SHIPS in the test game. There is no need to use foreign ships.
1667 days, 9 hours, 55 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I have some additional data which might be interesting and help to find the solution or rule out possibilities:

In turn x+1 Merlin #189 still had warp 9 set. That means it still had fuel. I.e. it didn't move and ran out of fuel during the host run.

Merlin #189 (and Tranquility #398 and Rush #498) had heading 26 in turn x+1.
1667 days, 9 hours, 51 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
@Terry: Hmm, I never heard of a chance in terms of towing. Donovan's also doesn't mention a chance. And towing my own ships always worked for me. I don't believe there's a chance to fail.
Can you maybe look up the situations?
1667 days, 9 hours, 45 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail,

Thanks for the explanation Nakor. I didn't realize you could do the tests all with one race.

With the extra info you posted, I would just ask verification that the D7 was indeed set to warp 9 as confirmed by time machine. 49.7 LY tow would be a multiple of warp 7 if for any reason the warp got changed to warp 7 by accident. If indeed the D7 is warp 9, I am puzzled as well.

At least this puzzle and your testing has taught me that the warp well resolution of the tow must happen during step 55 allowing you to tow with another ship in the test game. Thanks

Cheers,

MEGA
1667 days, 8 hours, 46 minutes ago
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nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Yes, the D7 was set to warp 9. Just checked it one more time.

You're welcome! And thanks for your input, MEGA!
Unfortunately the puzzle is still not solved.

Does anyone have an idea how that Merlin could escape my tow-lock?
1667 days, 8 hours, 35 minutes ago
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kelmain
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
You are not towing anything with the merlin. Just set the merlin to go 82+ lys at warp 9. A merlin with stardrives can easily burn more than 25 fuel in 3 lys. I checked on one of my games. You don't need to tow anything. If it was an evasion by prior towing, you wouldn't get the break message. The merlin is simply setting a long waypoint and running out of fuel in the warpwell.
1667 days, 8 hours, 19 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Did any other ships arrive at the planet? There is a "trick" you can use to break tows without actually moving. You have a ship that is greater than 81 ly away (often a probe) move to where the ships are (in your case the planet), and have ships that want to tow break intercept it. So in host order it could have happened like this:

1. Towing ships move - but your cloaker's tow is broken because the ship has warp 9 with a waypoint greater than 81 ly.
2. Regular movement - The ship being intercepted moves to the planet.
3. Intercepting ships move - But since their target is now already at their position, they don't actually move anywhere.
1667 days, 8 hours, 8 minutes ago
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ra
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
@Nakor

I suggest you use your test setup and check another possibility:

A higher number ship tows the merlin away at more than 81 ly to break the tow lock of your ship but with only enough fuel to go 3 ly.
1667 days, 8 hours, 3 minutes ago
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ra
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
@Big Beefer

But wouldn't that leave an additional ship at the planet on the next turn? It was reported that there were no additional enemy ships there the next turn.

That could work if the probe (ship being intercepted) colonizes when it reaches the planet after all movement is completed...Ra
1667 days, 7 hours, 49 minutes ago
View robert kennedy's profile
robert kennedy
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Here's a thought you may want to test Merlin #189 tows Tranquility #398 so they are not there for the D7 #204 to tow then the Tranquility tows the Merlin back, I'm not sure if this would work but it is worth testing.
1667 days, 7 hours, 43 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
The difficulty there, Senator, is that a successful tow changes the target's warp speed to 0.

Hm. Did we check for that at the planet on the following turn, @Nakor ?
1667 days, 7 hours, 38 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail,

The long intercept HYP ship arrival tactic as used in the Blitz championship wouldn't work if there is no new ship at the planet. Colonize would have to happen the following turn so the ship would still be visible.

I am not sure what Ra meant by higher ID ship... if ship has higher ID then the D7, it would not be able to tow the merlin before the D7 could tow it.

I am not sure how the comment regarding Merlin tows Tranq then Tranq tows Merlin would apply. Only one tow could happen in a single turn, the lower ID Merlin would do the tow and the Tranq wouldn't have the opportunity for a successful tow until the following turn.

I think Kelmain has it right. The Merlin burnt all his fuel with a long warp with insufficient fuel reaching the warp well and fell back to the planet. A long warp tow break would definitely give the tow break mssg and I agree with Kelmain that had the Merlin towed earlier it would not give the message since it didn't really break your tow. It simply was not present to be towed (technically it did break tow lock which got established earlier in the Host run but I believe the tow break mssg refers to breaking the tow when attempted and not the actual tow lock which was established in Host step 6). In either case the D7 should have the try to tow mssg present the following turn.


This however wouldn't explain the test scenario where Nakor tried this and couldn't reproduce it unless self tows as used in the test game work differently then tows from other races or the ship IDs were off in either the test or the actual game. I know I was confused about a multistage chunnel and then found out I dyslexified (yes I made that word up) the ship IDs for the simple explanation

Cheers,

MEGA
1667 days, 7 hours, 36 minutes ago
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ra
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
@Gnerphk it was reported that the Merlin was at warp 9 the next turn, which implies movement the previous turn - moving, towing, or intercepting...Ra
1667 days, 7 hours, 34 minutes ago
View robert kennedy's profile
robert kennedy
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Ok the Merlin having a warp setting of 9 the next turn would rule out my thought
1667 days, 7 hours, 33 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Apologies; I was non-specific: Were the other ships present all at non-zero speeds?
1667 days, 7 hours, 31 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Also, as Nakor pointed out above, the fact that the merlin is at warp 9 the next turn implies that it did not run out of fuel, and was not towed by some other ship. If either of these occurred the warp would have been reset to zero.

This is why I have difficulty accepting Kelmain's explanation, though I agree it would be the most common tactic used and is a good one to know.
1667 days, 7 hours, 20 minutes ago
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ra
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
@ Senator Kennedy

Ships cannot do that. Once a ship is towed, it can not tow the other ship. Believe me I've tried. As a privateer, I'd give my pinky finger for that option. :)
1667 days, 7 hours, 16 minutes ago
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kelmain
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Since I can't see what the UI reports to an enemy observer with regard to speed and it is clearly different than what is visible to a ship owner (which would be set to W0) in some situations, I can't comment on this. I still believe my scenario is the only plausible answer and the UI simply reports the speed traveled and doesn't update to show the reset to W0.
1667 days, 7 hours, 13 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hi Ra,

Warp 9 implies moving/intercepting and towing if he is the ship doing the towing. If he were the subject of a tow his warp would be reset to zero (making him easy bait to strip his shields when towed to a firecloud which chunnels him to a Biocide... get to use this against Gorbies quite a bit to make the fight unfair to my advantage... kinda like bringing a machine gun to a knife fight)


2 possibilities
-I did a search using ctrl f using the terms land, colonize, dissemble and got no hits on the usual Host page. I then used it with the updated HOST page in progress and it reports land and dissemble at step 56 in the new order. Basically it occurs right before New natives. The reason I couldn't find it in the old host is because it is spelled as colonise instead of colonize. It must be one of those English vs American English spelling deals

- Anyway, long intercept and colonize would seem to fit the parameters which allow the Merlin to have w9, a heading, a tow break and the intercepting ship would disappear after landing at the planet. Also, it didn't fail the test game since it wasn't tested yet. It does seem a waste of the HYP ship as there was really no reason to land and dissemble as the technique would still have worked without destroying the ship. The only reason to land/dissemble is to create confusion.


Longwarp would break tow and falling into the warp well should have reset the merlin speed to zero and no heading so that seems less likely.... and I think Nakor tested and saw it fail in the test game.

I guess long intercept is looking good but why colonize the HYP ship?




Cheers,

MEGA
1667 days, 6 hours, 30 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I have a possible explanation. Which incidentally is a possible bug.
I just tested an idea I had. It is possible to break tow without moving and without using long intercept.
You can set your mission to intercept a ship in the same spot. Then set your waypoint 90 ly away.
It would seem this satisfies the long waypoint since when tow lock is calculated your waypoint seems to be 90ly. Then when intercept movement comes your waypoint gets reset to the other ship , which is at your same location.

This does not seem like something that should work yet it does.
1667 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes ago
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kelmain
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
@ Siggi Now THAT is interesting.
1667 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes ago
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tom n
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
@Siggi, I've added that to my "Siggi Trick" folder. Ever growing. Thanks!
1667 days, 6 hours, 8 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Yeah; that seems to be a bug. Tough to tell, though.
1667 days, 5 hours, 57 minutes ago
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oho
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I was really hoping that trick to remain secret. :)

It’s not a bug, though. It has been around for as long as you have been able to change your waypoint after setting the intercept target. The mechanics behind it are exactly the same as those when you are intercepting an incoming probe (or any other incoming ship that is further than 81ly away): A ship’s waypoint may change during the intercept host phase, but tow-break waypoint has been evaluated already during the towing phase.
1667 days, 5 hours, 54 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I always though Priv tow lock was impossible to break since you need to have equal warp speed.
Not really sure though since I mostly play Fascists and any priv foolish enough to try and tow me gets popped :)
1667 days, 5 hours, 44 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail,

Priv tow of w5 or greater is impossible to break since you can't exceed its warp factor of 10 (warp 5 speed times 2 because of grav engines). You can break a warp 1 tow into a warp well or indeed any tow warp 4 or less.

The other trick does satisfy the fingers without need for a HYP ship coming in to remain at the planet... but it does seem unintended behaviour whereas the long warp to HYP ship was discussed by Joshua and compared with long interception of a ship that is 83 LY away that moves into the planet. Both these techniques require a ship coming to the planet and the coding was not changed. Joshua explained that winplan had a smaller screen so you could not do the long intercept trick in winplan but this didn't make it a bug. Indeed, he never changed the coding so it is a feature on Nu.

This technique where you aren't actually long intercepting but merely changing your waypoint to fool the interface isn't passing my sniff test so to speak.. but it is not against any rules... indeed it strictly follows the host order which is why it can occur.

Back to the original point, the only way to break the tow within the parameters set (assuming no errors in ship ID reporting, missions and the like) would be using long intercept with dissemble or long intercept with long waypoint out in space?

Cheers,

MEGA
1667 days, 5 hours, 36 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Here the warp settings of all enemy ships at p288:

In turn x:
Merlin #189 at warp 9
Tranquility #398 at warp 9
Rush #498 at warp 6

In turn x+1:
Merlin #189 at warp 9, heading 26
Rush #271 at warp 1 (was 1LY away from the planet in turn x), heading unknown
Tranquility #398 at warp 9, heading 26
Rush #498 at warp 9, heading 26
1667 days, 5 hours, 34 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Grav ships and other cloakers weren't present. Only the ships I mentioned, plus some more Rebel ships in the vicinity.
1667 days, 5 hours, 21 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
If the ships have a heading away from the planet then they were probably set to intercept the Falcon. The Falcon goes to the warpwell , all the ships follow it at warp 9 and then get sucked back to the planet.
1667 days, 4 hours, 35 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Just to clarify a couple things that have come up in this thread:

1. If a chip runs out of fuel and has its warp reset, enemy ships will in fact see the warp as 0.

2. Headings of intercepting ships are not updated (as seen from enemy ships). What I mean is that if the ships were set to intercept the falcon, and it was coming from the direction of heading 26, they would still show that heading to enemies regardless of where the falcon moves to. This is one reason you'll often see enemy ships in open space showing headings they could not possibly come from.

@Siggi, that's a brutal find, and sounds like a bug to me as well.
1666 days, 4 hours, 1 minutes ago
View nakor's profile
nakor
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
This is either a bug in the implementation or a flaw in the design.

The designer's intention was to allow races to tow-and-kill ships. With this bug/flaw that design is broken. I.e. it needs to be fixed.
1664 days, 13 hours, 7 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Mega, tell us if you get a respone. I have spoent my last free vote for Nakor's issue.
Meanwhile I apply the most efficent thing in such cases. I have a Birdman opponent named Joshua in one of my games and will use this manoveur. This was the way we got rid of tow drop chunnel.
1664 days, 13 hours, 1 minutes ago
View ville kauppinen's profile
ville kauppinen
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Merlin sets waypoint to >162 ly's but has only fuel to move into warp well with warp 9.
1664 days, 12 hours, 53 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Just had another devious idea. If you have cloakers of your own you could keep a cloaked ship parked in the same spot and intercept it. Your enemy would probably be pretty baffled since all he would see is a single ship that can't be towed.
1664 days, 12 hours, 45 minutes ago
View ville kauppinen's profile
ville kauppinen
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Nah, towing ships move on 54, intercepting 65 so towing happens first.
1664 days, 12 hours, 43 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Read the whole thread Ville ;)
It can be done.
1664 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes ago
View ville kauppinen's profile
ville kauppinen
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Too long, not worth reading. Host is executed like script (at least used to be) so I seriously doubt any intercepting would get you away from towing.
1664 days, 12 hours, 38 minutes ago
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lord krell
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Just a thought. THE Merlin has a mass of 900KT, and 10 engines. I'm not certain, but if he had a waypoint set, and has lvl 10 engines, he just overpowered your D7 or D7a
1664 days, 12 hours, 27 minutes ago
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oho
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Siggi, don't spoil all the good tricks! :)

In all seriousness though: I don't think this trick was possible in old TimHost because the client reset your waypoint to the intercept target (to be specific - this was clientside restriction). I was able to verify this using PCC2 client, but couldn't get winplan running so can't be 100% sure. In NuHost, this has been possible for as long as I have been playing here (since summer 2013).

I have been using this occasionally, but I don't think this is such a big deal as people seem to think (except in certain situations - like having a stack of ships defending a SB that is just about to build in the normal queue). Normally any competent player should make sure they can escape tows (towing themselves, using hyp-ships, just normal intercepts, etc.) when visiting planets in combat zones and even I can come up with several ways to do it without burning extensive amounts of fuel.
1664 days, 12 hours, 17 minutes ago
View ville kauppinen's profile
ville kauppinen
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Easy fix would be to make tow reset intercept missions so it would work as supposed, leaving setting actual long waypoint as "official" alternative breaking tow.
1664 days, 10 hours, 40 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Ville, read the thread or the feedback issue (shorter) so you know what we are exactly talking about and don't lose lifetime repeating what we already said.
Or even better, forget this thread. You are good enough without this manovweur ;)

@Oho: IMHO this is an extremly powerful manoveur. The reason why it wasn't debated earlier is that it was known to just a few people. And even now that it is published not many will care unless they were at the recieving side of this manoveur. Same as with MBC ...
1664 days, 10 hours, 37 minutes ago
View challengespaceyard's profile
challengespaceyard
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
To be fair, I believe the waypoint should be locked once an intercept mission has been set, unlocking only when the mission is changed to something other than intercept. There has been far too many times where I read somebody gets bitten in the aft because they forgot they had intercept active.

The "Try to intercept" text in the client also needs some contrast, as it is very easy to miss it and end up not moving at an inopportune moment because you forgot to set (or no longer have) an intercept target.
1664 days, 9 hours, 57 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail,

I used to be bitten at least 5 probes a turn set to warp zero intercept for tracking purpose that were actually reset to warp 1 because I laid a HYP circle on them for measuring purposes or while thinking of re-tasking them. Now I use the excellent plug in (I think it may be improved ship list) which has the command header so I can view ships by mission type. I then reverse sort the warp order and scan for any ship with intercept > 0. Most of the ships intercepting at w9 are by intent but most of the ships intercepting at other warps, especially w1 for me are by mistake so I fix it there and have eliminated ships moving off planet while intending to warp zero intercept (which also allows these probes to utilize btm variant codes and act as cloaker detectors)

Cheers,

MEGA
1664 days, 9 hours, 56 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Either this, CSY, or reset the mission to "exploration" if the waypoint is altered and doesn't point to the intercept target anymore.
1663 days, 15 hours, 22 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I know , as soon as I wrote it down I thought to myself "Clown cars in space.....I'd play that".
But that's just me.
1663 days, 13 hours, 47 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Gnerphk >> Moreover, I'd venture to say that this is nothing new. Breaking a tow-lock is pretty standard, as these things go, and this method has been available here at Nu for a long long time. Using a long intercept to a short target is a minor variation at best.

A minor variation?! My dear Colonial Supreme Commander, if you play against a competent Lizard with and without this variation I bet your definition of "minor" would change. And the Colonies are the best fat race for standard tow-breaking because fuel is no issue. So for Bots and EE ...
1663 days, 13 hours, 45 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
But as clown cars can't cloak the whole topic may be irrelevant soon.
1663 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail,

I would say the Rebels by far benefit from this fake waypoint tow immunity. They don't even need a Falcon jumping in anymore. Just pick any old waypoint and have your two engine ships RGA to their heart's content. They can only be killed over the planet and will break all nongrav tows. Indeed, they can do so without fuel so this lessens the Colonial advantage

Cheers,

MEGA
1663 days, 12 hours, 5 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply

Hail,

If the Rebels had a cloaker alternating between RGA and cloak, they could RGA half the time. With a support ship like a LF, the LF could RGA every turn while bring protected by its two engine protector escort which will be immune to tow because of fake intercept. Basically, you have to go in and kill the ships at the planet rather then tow them to kill them singly. Even the LF can get tow immunity by the fake intercept on some turns instead of RGA. This makes it harder to peel the weaker underbelly support ships from a fleet. Fascist pillage mission benefits from a similar technique but they lose a lot more in the tow battles then they could possibly gain.

Cheers,

MEGA
1663 days, 9 hours, 27 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Who says clown cars can't cloak?! USERVOICE! (I've actually always envisioned LCCs like large clown cars - eight zillion screaming Lizards pouring out at any moment, capturing my bases and making life miserable.)

Oh, I grant that full knowledge of this will change the game balance. It will, among other things, force players to travel in packs.

But you're forgetting some things, gentlemen -- especially you, Mega. How can someone both RGA and break tow at the same time? How can any of these vessels sweep mines? Logically, there's always a way for a cloaker with minefield superiority to pick apart any stack of mutually-intercepting ships. Alternately, one can always just lay stacks of mines and trap them on a planet. And Lord help them if they try to move!

No, this is a balance-changer, not a game-changer.

And I submit to you, gentlemen, that the players most in need of some balance -- the Robots, the Empire -- benefit as much as anyone. The Colonies? Sure -- but they can't simultaneously minesweep and resist tow. The Rebels? Can't simultaneously RGA and resist tow. No; this benefits the static fleet stack. It works against the Birds... but they're one of the few races that benefits from the enemy holding a static fleet stack. Same for the Fascists.

This hurts (in my opinion) the Crystals a very little and the Privateers a little more. Lizards, Birds, and Fascists? It slows them and forces a tactical adaptation.

And so does EVERY new tactic ever invented. Come now! We can't go outlawing new tactics at this point in our lives!
1663 days, 8 hours, 59 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail,

@Gnerphyk -Among the cloaking races, the Privs don't get hurt as much if at all because their main tow will be the gravitronic tow which will overpower any intercept tow break tricks (legitimate long intercept or fake waypoint intercept) so long as they are towing at warp 5 or greater. They are the only cloaking race for which this is a minimal inconvenience.

This technique requires at least TWO ships so one Rebel ship can RGA while the other one intercepts him (as has always been the case). The RGA ship however can break any nongrav tow and stay in place by alternating his mission to intercept (particularly sneaky if the Rebels should happen to own a cloaker already at the planet). If he has more then two ships present, this works even better as you will not know which ship is the one he chooses to RGA with. If he is smart, he is alternating the ships he is intercepting and RGA with. You would need an equal number of ships present all on tow mission and the only successful tow you would have is of the ship actually doing the RGA. If instead he has 4 ships and you have 1-3 ships present, your tows will fail to stop RGA 25-75% of the time. They save a nice amount of fuel because they don't have to break tows by moving at w9 for 82 LY which costs significant fuel for any heavy ship and outrageous amounts of fuel for a Rush with w5 engines. Instead of costing 900 or whatever fuel to break a tow, he uses no fuel and stays put which will make it more difficult to rescue your planet from repetitive RGA or simple attack

The fascists with their pillage mission also get a little benefit on the tow immunity end but it doesn't counteract the Major loss they suffer because they don't have gravitronic towing ships and other races will get tow immunity to their regular cloaking ship tow

As to tactics, long intercept is quite valid and does require you to commit some resources such as an arriving HYP ship or ship from 82-84 LY out. Fuel is expended. Fake intercept by confusing the interface by changing a waypoint after the fact is a different issue. No resources are expended other then having a second ship (or more) at the planet and committing the ships you don't wish towed to intercept mission while leaving the others with whatever mission you desire.

Some time ago a player found that you could build 400 ftrs per turn with a gemini. He sent info to Joshua and it got fixed. It wasn't against the rules and was allowed by the interface but he suspected it wasn't intended behaviour and indeed Joshua fixed that one. Hopefully we will see soon enough if this is intended behaviour or a bug in the interface.

Cheers,

MEGA
1663 days, 8 hours, 56 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I agree with your assessment, MEGA.

I'd thought that, here at Nu, Gravitonics didn't get a bonus with tow-lock versus tow-break. They've always been my weak point, though. Can anyone speak to this point from recent experience?
1663 days, 8 hours, 33 minutes ago
View challengespaceyard's profile
challengespaceyard
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
I dare say this topic has become extremely unstable. Between listing all the potential benefits AND drawbacks to the newly discovered intercept quirk, it is nearly impossible to find a happy medium.

I had enough problems with long intercepts, which I now understand was limited in the past in order to prevent CRASHING the ancient Planets client.
1663 days, 8 hours, 14 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
In light of these discussions I have created a uservoice to adequately adress this serious issue.
http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/7026472
1663 days, 8 hours, 3 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Clown cars in space are probably extremely unstable. Ever notice how they're not so much funny (Ha ha!) as they are funny (I'm embarrassed to be watching)?

Oh. You mean for the intercept thing.
1663 days, 7 hours, 58 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
No no. I mean the clown cars.
Seriously this is the best idea I've ever had.
1663 days, 7 hours, 52 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Hail,

From my experience with my pirate ally and from prior threads (which have since been updated into the Planets mag 4 fingers article), grav ships towing at w5 or greater have a warp factor of 10 or greater so their tow can never be broken as all 4 fingers can NOT be satisfied by the ship being towed. This is because warp factor is only counted double when the grav ship is towing and not the prisoner of a tow. A grav ship can not break the tow of another grav ship so long as the towing grav ship is towing at w5 or greater as the prisoner grav ship has warp factor of 9 which is less then the towing grav ship warp factor of 10 (warp 5 times 2). There were several threads about this and it did get tested along the way.

Cheers,

MEGA
1663 days, 6 hours, 25 minutes ago
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megalomaniac
RE: Tow Mystery - Need Help! I had an incident (twice!) in one...Write Reply
Borg love fake long intercept.

The Firecloud is my most critical ship. I can make it immune to ALL nonGRAV tows. Your only option to destroy it is to sacrifice a cloak interceptor stronger then my Firecloud or kill all my cubes first. I no longer need to commit 1 cube to defend it at w1 intercept and another cube at w9 intercept. I no longer waste fuel performing long warps to break any non grav cloaker tows.

At least I can't chunnel in more cubes since I have to set warp 9 on the firecloud, as that would truly be devastating to have a permanently tow immune firecloud serve as a chunnel recipient. I am however making the firecloud immune to tow so only a stronger cloak interceptor can kill it or a fleet that can kill my cubess arrives (not generally present among the cloaking races that lack pop ships).

When I do wish to chunnel in more cubes, I then commit two cubes to w1 and w9 intercept and bring in help in the normal way. The benefit I get is not having to constaly have two cubes on intercept unless I wish to chunnel that turn.

I don't play campaign, but surely this will help protect tantrums, command ships, Godzillas (like they need protection... even the name is SCARY) and other unique ships.

Cheers,

MEGA