Towing

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2396 days, 4 hours, 56 minutes ago
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kopobeb
TowingWrite Reply
 If ship ID #1 (non-gravitonic) tries to tow ship ID #2 (gravitonic), while simultaneously ship #2 tries to tow ship #1 - who will win the "tow battle" (both are set to warp 9)?  Does it go by ID# or warp factor (in this case 9 vs 18)?  Would destination point matter (over/under 81 LY)?
2396 days, 4 hours, 27 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: TowingWrite Reply
Gravatronics wins.
2396 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
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kosmonymous
RE: TowingWrite Reply
My understanding is that if the ID #2 waypoint is further than 81 ly away then ID #1 will fail tow-lock and #2 will tow the first one. Otherwise the #1 will tow the #2.
2396 days, 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
View bacchus's profile
bacchus
RE: TowingWrite Reply
I believe the way point only matters if both have the same warp strength.

(from Donovan's)

If two ships in one position are using tractor beams on each other, the ship with the higher warp factor will tow the ship with the lower warp factor. This is because the ship with the lower warp factor, if it has the lowest ID, will fail to tow the other ship. If the ship with the lower warpfactor has the higher ID of the two, it won't be able to escape the tow from the other ship.
2396 days, 3 hours, 6 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: TowingWrite Reply
I have a master guide for tow-conflict issues.  It's a PDF and I will not post it on the forum.  I will share with anybody if you want to give me an email address.

All of the above answers are wrong.  This answer will surprise you because it makes no sense but this is the real answer!!!!  (Edit: We are assuming both have waypoint >81LY away, right?)

If one of the ships in your scenario has less than 25kt of fuel, it will lose the tow conflict.

If both have 25kt or more, then they will break apart, each toward its own waypoint.

The reason is that in a mutual towing situation only (in a situation where the two ships are trying to tow each other), gravitronics count double for the low ID ship but not the high ID ship.

Conclusion: there are some wickedly bizarre things about this game.
2396 days, 2 hours, 15 minutes ago
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kopobeb
RE: TowingWrite Reply
 Thanks, Echoclusterveteran.

I would appreciate it if you send me the PDF.

My e-mail is pponomar@hotmail.com

Thanks again.
2395 days, 23 hours, 21 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: TowingWrite Reply

Wow !   Higher ID ship doesn't count Gravs in a mutual towing scenerio - lol.  Soooo....A MBR could actually LOSE a tow, if the ships are towing each other and ship A has a waypoint set further than the MBR, if the MBR waypoint is less than 81 lt years. (assuming the 25 kts)

Thats a rare gem with completely zero logic...

Good Stuff - ECV

2395 days, 21 hours, 33 minutes ago
View eeon's profile
eeon
RE: TowingWrite Reply
for a similar situation who wins....
Lowest id Ship towing a stardrive1 gorbie (highest id)
but mcbr (middle ID) wants to tow gorbie (highest id) another direction. will the low id still win the tow conflict? or will the mcbr be victoriuos in its theft?
2395 days, 21 hours, 24 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: TowingWrite Reply
@ eeon – towing happens in ID number order, so if there are two ships trying to tow the same ship at the same point in space, the lower ID ship wins because the ship will no longer be there for the higher ID to tow.  However the high ID will win if the low ID fails in its attempt to tow due to warp factor.  There is a common misperception that the type of engines matters, but it doesn't.  It's the speed that the ship is set on.  So if your StarDrive gorbie is set to warp 0 or warp 1, then the lowest ID ship will win.

@ other guys who messaged me – I'm editing my cheat-sheet for clarity and will send it out shortly
2395 days, 17 hours, 26 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: TowingWrite Reply
ECV, I think that you may be right about the end result, that both ships will go their separate ways, but I'm not sure where you got the reasoning behind it. (and I would like to know!)

Rather there has been a towing bug on .nu for quite some time, which I think is still unresolved. Basically the issue is that towing ships move in the tow-movement phase, even when their tow is broken. The effect is that a 2+ engine low ID ship can always break the tow of a higher ID ship by attempting to tow it, regardless of speed or waypoint. This happens because the low id ship tries to tow, fails, but still moves (without the other ship), so when the higher id ship comes up in the host order, the low id is already gone and so cannot be towed.

Anyways, a bunch more info on it here and the links that follow from it:
http://planets.nu/discussion/bug-lower-id-ships-can-break-tow-no-matter-his-warp-speed

2395 days, 16 hours, 59 minutes ago
View nitemare's profile
nitemare
RE: TowingWrite Reply
Hi!

Bigfeeter in fact it should be fixed since Joshua finally understood where the bug was. You can read about it here:


 I think you are wrong echocluster. Things should happend this way, always assuming that they have their waypoint more than 81ly away and both warp9,

1) ship id#1 tries to tow ship #2 but since ship#2 has the same warpfactor and his waypoint further than his warp speed squared it breaks the tow.

2)  Ship id#1  lose his target and wait to move in the regular movement fase. 

3) Ship id#2 tries to tow ship id#1, when comparing the warp speed ship id#1 can't break the tow since ship #2 has grav and it counts like his warpfactor is 18. 

 4) Ship id#2 tows ship id#1 away.

 The result would had been the other way if ship id#2 was trying to tow ship id#1 with a lower warp factor,doesn't matter if he had gravs.

 Before fixing the bug, the result would had been the one explained by echo since ship 1 would had move in the towing fase before ship 2 could try to tow it.

 REgards,

 Nite
2395 days, 16 hours, 50 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: TowingWrite Reply
@nitemare - This particular circumstance (mutual towing with high ID vs low ID gravitronics) I tested on THost 3.22.047 and am 100% certain that I am not wrong.  However, we all know that Nu tends to make quiet changes here and there, so I cannot be 100% certain about Nu, but none of us can on any given day ;)

@beefer - according to the thread cited by Nitemare, the bug got fixed by Joshua and now ships that have broken their tow move in the regular phase, matching the behavior of THost.  [Edit: Also, Beefer, you would like to know the reasoning behind it but there isn't any reasoning - it's just a game.  In mutual towing, gravitronic warp speed counts as double for the low ID ship only.  In tow conflict situations, two ships trying to tow each other is the only case where a gravitronic does not count double.]
2395 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes ago
View nitemare's profile
nitemare
RE: TowingWrite Reply
Echo that only wanna say that  Thost 3.22.047 had bugs too. It has no sense if nu try to reproduce them too. What are the differences between 3.22.047 and 3.22.046? That they fixed things. So we can easily think that they didn't found that particular bug yet.

 Anyway is nice to now that thost had weird behaviours too.

 But the answer here at nu is that if they already fixed the tow movement phase bug, ship id2 should win since it would be the right behaviour stated in the rules. Well, if there were any written rules. Let's say that this is the behaviour that has more sense knowing that grav doesn't count for breaking a tow.

 regards,

 Nite
2395 days, 16 hours, 27 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: TowingWrite Reply
Nitemare, I suppose it depends on your definition of a bug?  I always just considered it a curiosity – in fact, an interesting feature that could be used to advantage by an expert player once in a blue moon.

(If gravitronics always counted double, then yeah, the gravitronic would always win.  Show me instances of every possible scenario in a live game and then I'll agree with you.  For now, I'll continue to hold the belief that Nu matches the behavior of THost except for the known exceptions such as case-sensitivity of special friendly codes.  It seems like the safest bet.)
2395 days, 15 hours, 11 minutes ago
View dines's profile
dines
RE: TowingWrite Reply
An old thread:
http://planets.nu/discussion/differences-between-planetsnu-and-timhost

It did use to work differently. But maybe it has been changed ?
Only way to know for sure is to set up a test game...

Dines


2395 days, 15 hours, 8 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: TowingWrite Reply
Dines,

According to that thread, in Jobo's words, "towing apperas (sic) to work exactly as in timhost"

But that was 417 days, 3 hours, 55 minutes ago :)
2395 days, 11 hours, 58 minutes ago
View eeon's profile
eeon
RE: TowingWrite Reply
@nitemare i read that thread you posted and joshua only indicates that he will have another look at it, i dont see where he says the bug has been fixed.
2395 days, 11 hours, 51 minutes ago
View nitemare's profile
nitemare
RE: TowingWrite Reply
@eeon you are right. That's why I posted that it should be fixed. It's not the first time that Joshua says he is gonna try to fix a bug, fix it and forgot to post announcing it. But I can't ensure he fixed it or he or if he didn't.

 Any one who want to be sure can try it in a surrounded game for example.

 Regards,

 Nite

2395 days, 11 hours, 48 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: TowingWrite Reply
Of course it also has become apparent that things in "surrounded" don't necessarily match the behavior of live games... tow-chunnel as a notable example...

But if anybody wants to try it, I would also love to know.
2395 days, 11 hours, 38 minutes ago
View eeon's profile
eeon
RE: TowingWrite Reply
well i just checked the changelog for any potential tow changes, and found nothing, so i guess it is safe to assume that has nothing has changed, until proof or verification of change can be established. i guess for now ill assume lowest id wins the tow, regardless of waypoint speed and engines? is that correct? unless they both towing each other? then the rules change?

2395 days, 11 hours, 33 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: TowingWrite Reply
For a mutual tow, lowest ID wins unless (1) they have equal warp factor and both have a long waypoint, in which case they break apart or (2) high ID has long waypoint and low ID does not, in which case the high ID wins, or (3) high ID has a higher warp factor than low ID, in which case high ID wins, or (4) low ID has less than 25kt fuel, in which case high ID wins.
2395 days, 11 hours, 33 minutes ago
View nitemare's profile
nitemare
RE: TowingWrite Reply
Well it depends, If ship id doesn't have grav and is towing a ship with his same warpfactor and a waypoint greater than his warpfactor^2 then the tow will fail.

 If they are towing each other and the bug is not fixed both will break the tow and move freely.

Edit: Echo had been faster and more accurate ;D 
Edit2: in the 3 option the high id ship needs to have a long waypoint too or low id wins.
2395 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes ago
View eeon's profile
eeon
RE: TowingWrite Reply
echo, id like a copy of that spreadheet too, if you dont mind. for some reason i cant get my head around this, must be the headache i just got from all this.
2394 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes ago
View chas's profile
chas
RE: TowingWrite Reply
How often do you have your grav ship uncloaked so your enemy can try to tow it?
2394 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes ago
View starwarriorguild's profile
starwarriorguild
RE: TowingWrite Reply
nearly every time an ion storm pops up over me without warning.

on an additional note, is it me or do the ion storms always aim for the cloaking races? is it some kind of magnetic fuel for ion storms. ion storms chasing nutrinos from the cloaking devices? i know its not the case, but when you play a cloaking race it always seems that way.