What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...

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12 days, 15 hours, 6 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the Power of the Crystals adjusted.

Something needs to be done about this game in balance. To do this I feel only one change may be needed.

1. Make Crystals webs not work in ion storms. No mine hits, no web drain.


Here is why I feel this way.

I keep seeing, players say the original is well balanced? Or the Races are balanced.
The races are not. Every version had something new added to try and help balance the game in the 90's.

If they were balanced we would have 7-9 races with one Empire By now, and 2 more likely to get one soon. with 1 maybe 2 races getting lucky and having 2 winners.

What we have:
4 Crystals wins.
3 wins with Crystal ally/Vessel
1 with peace with a weak Crystal that died in by the end but webs helped winner.
1 Crystals died early

In two running games 1 Crystals died early and second Crystal is small.


What we have. Four have been won by the Crystals, Then four by a non Crystal player with a Crystal Ally/Vessel. Unless the Crystals were Killed early (this happened in one game)

What we see is in 7 of 9 games the Crystals determine the winner.

This shows that the Crystals are over powered to adjusted for this I would like to see.

1. Webs not work in ion storms. No mine hits, no web drain.


Only other thing that could be seen as close to as powerful as webs is the Firecloud. Looking at the Championship games 5 winning players had Fireclouds. That’s still 5 of 9 games still more than any other ship/race ability I could find. (2 were Cyborg)


12 days, 14 hours, 27 minutes ago
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frostriese
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
Intresting collection of facts - but imho the wrong point of view to adjust the power.

In normal games Crystals make things nasty / uncomfortable, but has not that big impact on the victory.

In Highlander games the Crystal is one of the most wanted sidekicks, because their power could not be equalized by simple trades (like the Firecloud network). And in most cases I witnessed, the webs was the last blob to make one side the winner.

So - if normal games works well (looking at the Web power), and CS games not - we should dicuss adjustments for Highlander / CS games.

May be
* no trades with gsX or limiting the amount of treaties
* a lone / public wolf game (I know hundreds starts screaming)
* adjusting the ammount of Neutronium in grounds / density

just my 2ct
12 days, 14 hours, 9 minutes ago
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sibiryak
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I am completely unqualified to comment on high-level balance.
With that disclaimer, a tongue-in-cheek suggestion:

- make Web mine drain (and web hits?) affect every non-Crystal player, including allies. They will have to set appropriate friendly codes to not be affected
12 days, 13 hours, 57 minutes ago
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talespin
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
My 2 cents: Planets races are not balanced and equal, but other things balance it out. The imbalance makes this the MOST UNIQUE game out there.

Ok, so I've played the Crystals at a lot, and I still don't think it's EASY to win with them. Once the mid to late game starts, it's very difficult to win - in my opinion. Yeah, people talk about the DF/CT combo, but that's TWO expensive ships, while most races just need ONE. It's not as powerful as you might think it is. And it's not that easy to steal ships with webs.

Also, I personally do not get these Crystal players who give out their webs for free or for a ship or two. You are playing the Crystals wrong - again imo. Are you winning this way? Maybe you should change your tactics...

People need to understand the value of webs. Don't go saying, "Give me two ships and I'll defend you with webs." That's a ridiculously lopsided deal that puts the game into the hands of the receiver of the webs. If you're going to lay webs for someone, you better get something pretty fantastic in return - or at the very least it's a vitally strategic move. Or even go as far to calculate the cost of the ship you want, and lay webs that cost and equal amount of resources. It's not even "whoring" as some people say. It's just letting people take advantage of you.
12 days, 13 hours, 42 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
The issue is at some point in every game an ion storm will go through your space. At that point there is nothing you can do to stop the crystals from moving in and taking a few planets you can't move to defend them or counter attack.

unless you make webs just not work in ion storms then it would be reversed Then it would be the only time that Crystals have to worry about someone attacking there space. But they could still counter attack move forces to defend and lay normal mines.

webs really slow down games. and a crystal can just wait and wait until the ion storm comes along.

Yes the DF/CT is not a cheap combo but you only loss one of them most times. thanks to the webs braking up the enemy fleet. The Feds, Liz, Bird, and Fascist, all need more to match DF/CT.

12 days, 13 hours, 30 minutes ago
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frostriese
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
as you said - ion storms comes in every game and you collect a bias in wining CS games / Highlander games.

Ion storms are nasty for all races ... nobody prevents you to lay minefields to protect against moving Crystal ships ... normal mines are not sweepable, too.

I would suggest that you play some turns as Crystal to learn the hard way how vulnerable a single Crystal is.

Defending as Crystal without webs is pretty hard - most races Fed, Liz, Bird, Fasc next to carrier races are superior. Even with webs is a defense against a well played race a tough job.

As enemy of the Crystal you have to watch out for ion storms and lay mines ahead of time - thats the only thing to keep an eye on. Compare that in relation to an attacking Lizzard.
12 days, 11 hours, 11 minutes ago
View vgapsycho's profile
vgapsycho
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
"The issue is at some point in every game an ion storm will go through your space"
No.
12 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes ago
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renathras
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
@Regicide not commenting on the rest since I don't think I have the experience/skill level to do so, but...I CAN speak to statistics:

"If they were balanced we would have 7-9 races with one Empire By now, and 2 more likely to get one soon. with 1 maybe 2 races getting lucky and having 2 winners.

What we have:
4 Crystals wins.
3 wins with Crystal ally/Vessel
1 with peace with a weak Crystal that died in by the end but webs helped winner.
1 Crystals died early

In two running games 1 Crystals died early and second Crystal is small.


What we have. Four have been won by the Crystals, Then four by a non Crystal player with a Crystal Ally/Vessel. Unless the Crystals were Killed early (this happened in one game)

What we see is in 7 of 9 games the Crystals determine the winner."

.

In statistics, there is a known principle that you have to have a sample size over a certain amount, or you don't get good data. It's been a while since I studied it, but I believe N=30 (number of data points/poll responses/etc) is a MINIMUM to get good data. This is because statistics get more accurate (generally) the more data you have, but are not accurate for small data/number of events.

Flip a coin. You have a 50/50 chance of getting heads or tails. Flip it 10 times, and you might get 10 heads. Flip it 10,000 times and you probably won't get EXACTLY 5,000 heads and 5,000 tails, but you'll probably be close. It's a lot easier to get 10 heads in a row than 10,000.

There have been, what, 9 championship games?

What are the odds you could flip a coin 9 times and get heads 4 times? Okay, there are 11 players, so what are the odds you could roll an 11 sided die 9 times and get 7 four times? Pretty good, wouldn't you agree?

I get what you're saying, but you have cases where the Crystal died early or was small, so I'm going to posit - for the sake of argument - that there may be a more complex story here than just "Crystals are OP". I'm not trying to be mean or sarcastic, just saying the data set is far too small.

...and, from my limited experience, Planets games seem, to me, to be won by diplomacy more than anything else. The Fascists control only 3 sectors on the entire Map (if you look at Map), and have the fewest Flag Officers of any race, I believe (Commodore and Rear/Vice/regular/Fleet Admirals), and the fewest Commander+ ranks as well, and are the easiest race to get on the leaderboard with because all you need are around 160 achievement points (the next lowest are Empire/Birds/Rebels), and yet the Fascists...have won a championship, while the Empire/Birds/Rebels have not (Empire has 4 sectors, Rebels 5 or 6, and Birds 12, btw)

So, are Fascists UP or OP?|

The statistics won't help you figure that one out...
12 days, 4 hours, 2 minutes ago
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sibiryak
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
Well, if you want to talk statistics... There is no hard cutoff for a number of samples where statics "becomes significant".

The probability of a getting an 11-sided coin to come up with a number 4 (or more) out of 9 times is:
(1/11)^4*9!/(4!*5!) = 0.86%
The probability of getting ANY of the numbers 4 (or more) out of 9 times is
11 * (1/11)^4*9!/(4!*5!) = 9.5%

Of course, this is only talking about coins and ignores systematic biases that would be present in actual games.

Veeery roughly, with 90% confidence, Crystals were stronger than the average race. Note that the balance of the races also changed over time (including queue, map, player skill levels, etc.), which makes a judgement even more difficult.
12 days, 0 hours, 58 minutes ago
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renathras
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I'm not saying the argument is ironclad. I'm saying there are too few instances to make that determination.

You'd need to do some best fit curves and first gather a lot more data. For example: Look at the Map and all the sector outcomes individually (or, at least the ones playing Standard rules).

When you look at Championship games, all you're getting is a snapshot of races at the highest levels of play. For example, I'm a pretty novice Planets player, meaning no matter what race you give me, I'm probably going to lose a Championship game going against a bunch of the Fleet Admirals here. But at my level of play, the "best race" may be different than at the Championship level.

You can see this somewhat reflected by looking at the Leaderboards of the various races. I actually filled out a spreadsheet for that (because I'm a nerd) of how many people held each rank for each of the races. Something you notice when you do that is that different races seem to be "easier" or "harder" at different levels of play, judging by rankings. Though I did make it a few weeks ago, so the numbers may be SLIGHTLY dated. Rundown:

Most Emperors: Tholians (4)
Most Fleet Admirals: Colonies (3)
Most Admirals: Borg (4)
Most Vice Admirals: Gorn (17)
Most Rear Admirals: Orions (69)
[ ... I feel like there's a joke in here somewhere...]
Most Commodores: Orions (99)
Most Captains: Orions (149)
Most Commanders: Colonies (170)

So judging by that, the Privateers are the most competitive across multiple levels of play (midlevels), sandwhiched by the Colonies, and the Cyborg and Crystals are only highly competitive at the very top end.

Btw, the lower end, LEAST:

FAdm: Romulans/Rebels/Cylons (0)
Adm: Empire/Colonies (0)
VAdm: Empire (3)
RAdm: Empire/Fed/Cylon (15)
Cmmd: Klingons (41)
Capt: Empire (78)
Cdr: Borg (75)

...now, granted, on the high end this breaks down as those people often promote, but it is what it is.

Btw: Using this and the Map together, it seems that Empire may be the weakest/hardest to play race, and Privateer is the most potent in the mid to upper ranges (and has the most sector controlled on the Map by quite a margin). The Rebels and Federation seem to be the next weakest races, with the Romulans and Klingons floating around in there...but, again, the Fascists DO have an Emperor under their belt.

So it's really hard to make definitive statements.

I guess that was the point I was trying to make in my other post in a nutshell. :)
11 days, 7 hours, 39 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I played many games as the crystals back in the 90's That's why I have not played them much at .nu

I know more data is better but I would like to not have to wait 30 years to see a change.

This is an idea that came up in a DnD group that also play planets.

I would be happy if it was made an option in custom games like people are asking for with Linear Queue in PQ system.


11 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes ago
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renathras
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
Hm...okay, I've talked statistics, so I think I'll talk about your actual idea now. XD

Your idea seems RIDICULOUSLY narrowly focused to me. You're basically trying to SPECIFICALLY nerf Crystal Web Mines, in use during an Ion Storm only.

How many games, championship or otherwise, were decided by Crystals using Web Mines in an Ion Storm to invade an enemy's territory? Especially late game, where players have 50-150 planets, Ion Storms just...aren't that large. Not only that, the nastier ones would be damaging the Crystals, too, as well as dragging them away from planets.

It just seems like an oddly SPECIFIC change that wouldn't matter in 99% of the games. I'm sure some good Crystal player has used it to their advantage, but how many? And how is this different than normal mines, which behave in similar ways? And what if the Crystals are actually underpowered BUT FOR this ability - what will you give them to compensate for it?

NOTE: I'm not a Crystal player, so there may be more to their nuanced mechanics than I realize. But I'm also not arguing for self-interest as, again, I haven't played them, so I'm not worried about someone "nerfing my race" or the like.
11 days, 3 hours, 52 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I believe an ion storm has really effected a Championship game by having a large slow ion storm go through an area of conflict influenced by the Crystallines.

I don't know which but it has happened.

And it happens in other games.

For normal games you can countermine normal mines in an ion storm.

You cannot with webs.

But making webs not work in ion storms would be a dramatic change in game play.

It can also be influenced by not having any ion storms making no difference to having more than the standard 4. So games could be set up to weaken or strengthen the Crystaline dramatically.

Either people need to realise that Crystallines are a threat and need to be removed at a higher priority.

Or Crystallines if beaten need to decline Vassalage when offered when they are just about to hit FoF.

But this is ballanced by the fact as evidence suggests they do win games and if you are friends with them you also win.

No easy answer I am afraid.
11 days, 3 hours, 36 minutes ago
View commander koski's profile
commander koski
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I believe there are three points here I'd like to stress:

1. The Crystalline way of winning is to grow strong enough, after that it becomes strong enough to PAINFULLY slowly win with a thousand cuts. This is emotionally very painful experience, months of gameplay without any hope,

2. Many players don't understand that at which point the Crystalline is strong enough to win. That is why they think there is no need to hurry in order to make moves against the Crystalline. When in fact it might already be too late,

3. When the Crystalline is strong enough and can slow down any attack in grand scale, it is only a matter of time: statistically the decisive ion storm WILL come.

(btw. here is some of my contemplation about the matter three years ago: https://planets.nu/#/activity/2725539 )
5 days, 10 hours, 43 minutes ago
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wmerkel
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
In my opinion you are all exaggerating.

The crystals in the past championship games did not win becaus they were crystals. They had a lot of help from other players! Vassal-, inactive-, unaware (@Commander+Koski) players. What was decisive ? Diplomacy !

Diplomacy is the key. As it is in libra war. Its a lizard climbing up (my) throne, no crystal. Of course crystal help makes his victory much easier. But even without the crystal, the diplomacy web @Hijko laid out is a CS game winner.

Imagine a player having cloak, loki immune, SSD, 10/10 carriers, mcbr, fireclouds, ground combat advantage and eco boost (hisss). It would be enough to win, even without web mines.

So all (CS) players - focus on diplomacy, not on web mines.

-Wolfgang
5 days, 10 hours, 32 minutes ago
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hiko
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I agree with Wolfgang, but I also believe that wielding the superpower of diplomacy properly takes way too much RL-time. So even though I profit from it I would like to see it's powers cut. But not by nerving some races.
The solution for me is a lone wolf or two after Libra has ended. Or team games.
5 days, 9 hours, 30 minutes ago
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dread pirate
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
New to planets.nu here, but long time VGA Planets player from dos, winplan, VPA, etc. I have found that the common knowledge is that if you see the Orions, then don't let them get going and get teammates to help. Who best to help than Crystals if they are in the area. Then Crystals can capture a MBR, and now the rest of the galaxy is in trouble.

Take a look at those games and see if the Crystals managed to get an MBR or cloaking ship from another player early in game. I would be interested in the results. My thoughts are, don't trade cloaking ships or anti-cloaking ships with the Crystals. It will end one way.

My personal belief is the game is balanced with Races. The better players will generally follow these rules:
1) Don't start 2 -3 Front Wars unless you have allies on the other side.
2) Target races that have a big disadvantage against them. Have you ever tried to steal fuel from Robots when they are fully loaded......and then they lay huuuuge minefield....
3) Crystals...Hunker down, target weaker opponents, and play long game.
4) As someone mentioned, early game diplomacy. Did the Crystals get cloaker's, did someone give the Lizards Gambling Ships, did the crystals trade one of their ships, did someone give the Feds a Cobol, etc. Early game diplomacy, can have big impacts in late game.

My 2 cents.
5 days, 8 hours, 5 minutes ago
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sudakan
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I have posted this already but I believe make sense to respost this here:

The fact is that most of the games, may be > 95% of them are finish by diplomatic planets. The problem is that given this is a fact I can not believe this situation is not in consideration at the time to decide how races can share their abilities.
it is annoying to see one and two and 3 and 1000 times an almost eliminated crystal given other race the power to define the game. How this can be fun? And then you have the incongruence: crystals do not clone because they can rob ship and that is to much of an advantage for such a tremendous race. However not a problem that another race can so easily share that ability.
And there are many more examples, many many more and I invite people to talk about that "may be in a separated post". But don't you guys agree that we should put an end to this craziness. For example here is clearly ruining a championship.
Here are some easy ways to control this.

1- Only crystal player with crystal ships can navigate webs at warp 9. Other races will have to move at small warp in other not to hit a web.
the smaller the speed the lest chances to hit, lets say that at w5 the chances are null, and so on. Also crystal allies navigating the web need to have their mission in mine sweep
2-cystal player using ships for another race will also have problems navigating their own webs. For example, the ships can have lest efficiency in fuel consumption, and mission need to be in minesweep

2-Similar for the RObots, alied ships in robots mines need to set fc::: to the fc of the field, Possibility of impacting still not null and related to the mass of the ship and to wether the ship have or not mission set to minesweep (in this case and same for webs the mineswep will not swap mines but help navegation.


3-SSD imperial assault should be IMPERIAL, only EE with a SSD should be able to use it in that way

4-MCBR gravitonic sped 2X only for privateer pilots, other races with gravitonics can have lack of presicion in the waypoint, the randomness of the reached position after movement will depend on the speed.

5- claoek shps in hand of not cloakers races shoud have a chance to fail cloaking.

6- Hyp jumpers in hand of races not used to go in hyperspace have a chance to crash the ship when the final destination is a planet

7-similar for races other than borg using fireclouds,, if the firecloud is in orbit of a planet there are chances to crash the ships in the planet, and may be the chances shuould be proportional to the number of ships or total mass of the chuneeled ships

And the list can continue, but basically, the idea is that only races can take full advantage of their fleet making a little crazy the madness. Gays in most of the games people end up playing with a lot of combined technology, and some combination are impossible to handle. I do not see the fun on this.
SDK
5 days, 6 hours, 57 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
The crystals slow down games more then any other race or combo of races. at least most game winning technology combos are fast.(unless the crystals are part of it.)
5 days, 2 hours, 46 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
All this talk of limiting coordination in a game when many of the races have to swap technologies to win.

This cannot be solved by sweeping changes by Admin

But can be done by Additional Game rules.

Admin have given tools to do this.

Create a low cooperation games and get people who can be trusted to join.

Low diplomacy settings. 1 Ally, 1 SI and 2 FP. This will limit web mines and mass coordination.

No Cloning to limit technologies to those who work together.

Game rules that large groups will not be tolerated and tech should not be traded to non diplomacy players or set to a low amount each. So one or two ships can be traded but not mass fleets.

This cannot be controlled by the host program but anyone can house rule it.
4 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes ago
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sudakan
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
@Martinr I agree that there are already tools in place to mitigate some of the distortions or depart from the beautiful idea of having 12 races with different abilities fighting each other. How different commanders with different personalities fit more one or other races.
However, this is just a romantic idea, reality shows a big different picture.
More important there is a big incongruence that is not being addressed:
I have seen a big effort in balancing races abilities etc,, limiting certaing aspet of a race because have many oher very powerfull ones, e.j. Crystals....they do not clone because with their web they are already so powerfull....
but what when they become vassals of other race? the other race all the sudden adquire a letal ability:: were is teh balance there?

I am always amazed by magic the gathering,, year behind year they create new collections of cards, bring new abilities, create new creatures races etc,, but they always take care that an artifact that is good for elf does not become lethal in hands of dragons, etc etc etc,, it is amazing how this balance is preserved,, and there you have many more than 12 races....and many many collections..

Can you just asnwer to me why cystal / borgs / etc are prevented of cloning but lizards are not prevented of using in their favour the crystal vasall webs?
4 days, 16 hours, 35 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
There is no Ballance as the Crystalline player allows no Ballance. They give their services for reduced return. Their survival.

Ok in ballanced games where the Crystalline is sharing a win in two ally game.

I think most people complain when the Crystaline is not an equal.
4 days, 15 hours, 47 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
You don’t want to weaken the Crystals in first place. The Crystals can be beaten by every race in a 1:1 encounter. If you weaken webs per se then you do wrong to the Crystals which – on their own - are not overpowered. Even if you wanted to then the ion storm idea is not the ideal solution IMHO. It’s too much luck dependent. In some cases this won’t affect the game at all or the provided time windows are too narrow to have a significant effect. In some other cases a lonely innocent Crystal may have a bad game experience because of an early attacker combined with an early ion storm. Crystals are damned slow in development.

What you really want to target is the Crystal’s power as an ally/sidekick. Some of the other ideas mentioned go in this direction. I can imagine many completely different ways to go. I just think it's important that the solution doesn't tackle the Crystals in general but only the combination of Crystals + X.
4 days, 15 hours, 18 minutes ago
View tom graves's profile
tom graves
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I think the simplest solution is that no other race (ally or otherwise) is immune to crystal web mines. They interdict and drain everyone, all the time. Also, non-crystal ships can't lay web mines.

Crystals could still be allies, they could be valuable for constraining an enemies movement, but it is a challenge.

This stands with the Xenophobia of the Tholians.
4 days, 15 hours, 15 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I think my idea would be less harmful to the Crystals.

Just look at the Horwasp can't work as allies with anyone and it mess up the game a lot of players think.
4 days, 15 hours, 1 minutes ago
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sudakan
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I agree completely with Emork, if Crystal by their own are not good enough then why not to work in improve the crystal fleet has was done with many other races,, but the point here is avoid crystal become lethal vassal

what is wrong with this idea? I feel was not discussed at all? or completely ignored..why?

1- Only crystal player with crystal ships can navigate webs at warp 9. Other races will have to move at small warp in other not to hit a web.
the smaller the speed the lest chances to hit, lets say that at w5 the chances are null, and so on. Also crystal allies navigating the web need to have their mission in mine sweep
2-cystal player using ships for another race will also have problems navigating their own webs. For example, the ships can have lest efficiency in fuel consumption, and mission need to be in minesweep
4 days, 14 hours, 27 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
the Crystal fleet is great best cargo ships and great mid size ship.

The High end ships are the best combo in the game to take out a Heavy Carrier.
DF/CT is better then Nova/Kitty T-Rex T-Rex Mad or T-rex Mad Mad or any other.

They got great ship List. What they are missing in boost to economy. AS they need torps and fighters in large numbers like the Feds, Liz, Birds, and Fascist do.

4 days, 13 hours, 45 minutes ago
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glynsalternate
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
PLS... problem solved.
4 days, 12 hours, 32 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I think there's a new official warning sign for bullshit. It reads "PLS ... problem solved".

This is by no means a criticism of PLS, but only of "PLS" in response to a criticism or a suggestion for improvement of classic Planets. This is just stupidity. I'd even say that anyone who says this has no clue neither about classic Planets nor about PLS.
4 days, 10 hours, 7 minutes ago
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lord pollax
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
Perhaps making the laying of webmines a ship based ability? Only a specific ship or ships can do it, and web mines affect anyone not allied (including other Crystals).

Speaking of PLS, I will say from experience that the Crystals are a tough play in a PLS game. With slots have far lower value, and a cap on ships which the Crystal do not normally have... they have a tough time. Pirates too for the same reasons.

PLS then seems a nerf to two of the stronger races, but perhaps almost too much of a nerf.

I have always considered the Crystals so powerful because their racial ability is dual purposed and awesome on offense and defense. Most of the others do not have such flexibility, so it allows all styles of Crystal players to play to their strengths. This would increase the likelihood of better outcomes then, which is then reflected in the stats. I offer no fixes, just that observation as to why the stats may be as they are. A fix would need nerf both offensive and defensive benefits some small amount in order to affect all game play styles.
4 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes ago
View tom graves's profile
tom graves
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
Only Emeralds, Rubys and Opals can lay web mines.

Players 'allied' to the crystal have the EE in asteroid field limits applied vs web mines. All other relationship levels treat web mines as hostile.

This seems to be a reasonable compromise and easily done in the coding.
4 days, 9 hours, 33 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
Would want to add
Sapphire Class Space Ship
Selenite Class Battlecruiser
Onyx Class Frigate
to the list.
4 days, 9 hours, 24 minutes ago
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robodoc
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
I took @Glynsalternate's response as an attempt at humor. I thought it was funny, especially after reading the hundreds of recent comments about problems that don't exist in PLS. :P

@Emork, "classic Planets" is essentially set in stone and can't be improved, so I don't think that's what you mean. The changes proposed here would presumably affect all game formats except "classic".
3 days, 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
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emork the lizard king
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
Robodoc, I used the term "classic" not as narrow sense of an Nu game type definition (classic vs. standard) but in the broader every day sense. To avoid misunderstandings I could have used "global ship limit Planets" to distinguish it from PLS. But I refuse to use such a complicated term just because the PLS niche variant exists. Next time I'll just say Planets and PLS-Planets - or kick-and-rush-Planets :)
3 days, 19 hours, 3 minutes ago
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robodoc
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
@Emork That's what I thought you meant. I just mentioned that because it would be terribly confusing if people started referring to non-PLS planets as "Classic Planets". ;)

I suggest writing something like "PBQ/PQ" if you want to refer to those formats collectively.
3 days, 14 hours, 24 minutes ago
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glynsalternate
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
"Emork: but only of "PLS" in response to a criticism or a suggestion for improvement of classic Planets."

WOOSH... that's the sound of my point going right over Emorks head... sigh.
_ _ _

@Emork: PLS cannot be a suggestion for improvement to ClassicQueue. It's literally an entirely different Queue.

"Regicide: Power of the Crystals adjusted. Something needs to be done about this game in balance."

I was pointing out that PLS has dramatically weakened the Crystals power and hinting that you cannot discuss alterations to the Race without considering PLS, in yes a humorous way... a suggestion that suggests you should play PLS.

It's like suggesting to play a different game altogether, or 'throw the baby out with the bath water'.

Wasn't supposed to be a helpful suggestion... that's the joke.

Recently Dungeonmaster brought up changing the NuQueue, people broke into the ClassicQueue vs NuQueue vs PLS camps like usual... and I interjected that despite being in the PLS camp, I would vote for Dunegonmasters suggestion, good ideas are good ideas.

So I'd appreciate that favour returned, and any further changes at least consider their impact to PLS.

3 days, 14 hours, 15 minutes ago
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glynsalternate
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
FYI non-native English speakers, "problem solved" is akin to "mission accomplished"... its usage implies sarcasm.

Example; https://media.kidozi.com/unsafe/600x600/img.kidozi.com/design/600/600/ffffff/8176/1478509417-Problem-Solved.png.jpg

1 days, 20 hours, 53 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
@Glynsalternate I have played a little PLS. As well as many games where the Ship limit was not reached which are similar to PLS for building. (somewhat, to a point).

My suggested change is small and would not weaken the Crystals much over all, for any game type. (even classic)

It would only remove there one advantage of waiting for ion storms to attack. This may have been an over site when web mines were added to the game or when ion Storms were added. ( I don't remember which was added first any more.)
(did you ever play the fascist without pop ships?)

Crystals can still defend with webs with this change they would only need to lay new webs outside the ion storm of just inside so in a turn or 2 they start working this could work as a trap for anyone attacking them as the new webs can not be scanned that are inside the ion storm.

only times I see it would be big deal is if an ion storm has really large radius 200+lys and also moving a low warp under Warp 5. Even at that point would only be a 50ly wide channel a player could attack through safely and would need to have sweeping power with them for when it was gone. or would work out poorly for them.

A player would have to be losing badly to the Crystals to risk attacking in an ion storm vs the Crystals with this change as the risks would be to high for most to consider it a wise attack, unless had 22500+ sweeping power with the attack force.

So in the end it would mostly just prevent the Crystals from attacking in ion storms.

This would also help to speed up the game. because Crystal players will no longer wait up to 50+ turns for a ion storm to come a long to help there attack.

In the end the Crystals may not be completely stop attacking in ion storms. As webs layed in the ion storm can not be scanned or swept and Crystals ships are not weak in a fight. especially with there captured ships added to there fleet.

** ** Here is the biggest advantage and reason for this change again. ** **


This would also help to " SPEED UP THE GAME ".
because Crystal players will no longer wait up to 50+ turns for a ion storm to come a long to help there attack.

games are already long without the Crystals
1 days, 14 hours, 12 minutes ago
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glynsalternate
RE: What we needed most for High end games, is to the have the...Write Reply
Maybe a survey should be done to determine if there are any Crystal players that wait 50+ Turns for an Ion Storm to come around before attacking... I suspect Crystal players are just more cautious/slow and they are not waiting for Ion Storms at all.

For me Ion Storms have ended others attempts to invade me, then result in an unplanned counter-invasion. They are great opportunities to seize upon... but like winning the lottery, I don't plan on their occurrence.

Perhaps I'm an outlier in this regard.
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@Regicide: Ion Storms are not why Crystals win or have influence in "High end games". Just look at our game together for an example of how your suggestion would change nothing.

I thought your idea wasn't really worth even addressing, but since you seem hung up on it... let me give you better ideas.

Make them xenophobic... Crystals lose ability to give Safe Passage. I'd love that... but I'm well known for being in the Lone Wolf camp so harder for me to make such suggestions to the Admins.