Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...

« Back

979 days, 17 hours, 23 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup to limit the number of Safe Passages and Intel Shares? No more team game zero alliance games, thanks! Perhaps even disable ship trading -option as well?

I would also like to see an option to change the required planet count in Diplomatic Planets -victory condition.

These options shouldn't be too time consuming to implement?

- Admiral Thrain -
979 days, 15 hours, 7 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
All that would do is make it more difficult, not impossible.

Empty fuel out of ship, fly into Star Cluster Radiation Halo, -oops- into a Web or Rob trap.

Share screenshots, password or a turn data sharing script.

Exchange FCs, use PE... but definitely makes cooperation harder.

Would end towing Share Intel allies cloaked ships though!

(You meant no 'Turn zero alliance games' right?)
___

But I'd like the same options also.

Horwasp have 'always Kill!!!' feature that could be extended to all races?

And 'miX' codes could be disabled along with 'gsX' as you suggested.

I have a UserVoice vote left I can make a docket with... once you've figured out exactly what to say in it... in case you are out of votes yourself.
978 days, 21 hours, 48 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Yes, there is always a way, but as you said it makes cooperation harder and that's the purpose of those settings.

It's not fun to find yourself in a team game after x months of playing when you sign up for game which is not suppose to be a team game. Or maybe I just understand the rules differently. Is it the same when you sign up for a team game and then no one teams up with you?

It seems that I can only play one game at a time properly so it means that I'm pretty much stuck in a wrong type of game approximately for a year (30€) until I get a new chance. I could always resign or drop, but how many times I have to try to get into a game I want? And that would look pretty bad in my history. That's why there should be more options to customize the game rules without them being "gentelemen rules".

I'll have a look on uservoice once I have a bit more time to spare.

- Admiral Thrain -
978 days, 21 hours, 8 minutes ago
View iso--t's profile
iso--t
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Admiral thrain: 100& agree! WE NEED that "limit safe passages + share intel" option to create games where producing mass alliances is much more harder

Admins - do that now!
978 days, 21 hours, 8 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
It's not much fun even when you discover you are in a "team game" on Turn 2 in my personal experience.

Everyone in the 'Lone Wolf' format Sectors I assume would also want these features as they are relying on 'gentlemen rules'. I'll do my part to keep this thread on the first page of the Activity Feed and rescue if from the second page if that happens.

(つ°ヮ°)つ
978 days, 19 hours, 50 minutes ago
Profile Image
frostriese
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I agree - discovering a coalition instead of an alliance in the middle of game is always a pain and not that kind of competition that we signed up for.

100% agree that these limititation must exist - may be implicit by formulas (max ally +1 or #players div 5) or explicit by host.
978 days, 15 hours, 22 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
+1

I also suggested this in the past. In case it's going to be implemented the details matter. I make the user voice entry tonight if Admiral Thrain isn't faster.
978 days, 15 hours, 17 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I'm not surprised this has been suggested before. Maybe there is reason for it. :)

Emork, I let you create the entry, especially if you have details already ready. And your initial voice weights more than mine. :)

- Admiral Thrain -
978 days, 15 hours, 3 minutes ago
Profile Image
meteor
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
There is a similar one already:
https://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/10557816-create-in-0-ally-games-a-option-to-disable-ally-re
978 days, 14 hours, 41 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Hey, I have already commented on that one... my memory is so short... :| Too much stuff in my head these days. Can I borrow some brainspace from someone?

Anyways, maybe there could be more details what should be implemented?

- Admiral Thrain -
978 days, 13 hours, 24 minutes ago
Profile Image
vantucci
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
There is one thing people seem to overlook though. I have seen more coalitions where people work together extensively, but yet they do not ally than I do true alliances. With the messaging system on planets.nu, it's easy to message the people instead of doing it in game; not to mention a lot of people actually email instead of using the sector messaging as well. While it will remove the Alliance win, I just don't see how beneficial it would truly be as far as stopping coalitions, teams, alliances, etc.

I'm not against it, I just don't think adding those features in with achieve the outcome you seek. IMO, it only adds more complication to game set-up and dividing the players even further making it harder to fill games.
978 days, 12 hours, 34 minutes ago
Profile Image
mabeco
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I think having the option is always good.
You can set your game option with or without.
And you can join games with or without.
Each one has their on preferences.
978 days, 12 hours, 14 minutes ago
Profile Image
bilbo1949
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I agree.For example,I'm just now playing in a "Only 1 ally" game,alone (my ally was killed) against a 4 races combo, where cristal filled all the space of webmines and the other 3 races moves there without any problem. And there is NO formal alliance between any of them. This is a bit unfair (funny anyway) and probably unexpected for the game creator. If he should have some tools as you said, he should set the game in the right way, avoiding this situation.
978 days, 11 hours, 26 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Vantucci: Bilbo's case is one which would be heavily affected by the requested change.It's true that you can't hinder to players to work together intensively and in a number which is much higher than the max ally setting. But if they have to do this without setting safe passage it becomes much more difficult and error-prone.

I personally was on both sides of a huge ability stack and it didn't feel right in either case. Of course I do all what helps to win as long as it is conform to the rules. It would significantly influence my strategy if SP is limited e.g. to the max ally setting. I would play more offensive and would earlier expose myself as someone going for to win. This would be possible because the following notorious flow of events becomes less likely to be successfull:
1. The first alliance gets ahead - pobably because they play very good. Unfortunately they don't know about a certain psychological trap.
2. Many of the other players / alliances start working together to prevent the leaders from winning. During this hard struggle they fight side by side, share defeats and victores and this creates cloas ebonds.
3. The first alliance is smashed by the superior number of enemies and the incredibke options of their stacked abilities. Now another player or alliance is the leading one.
4. All starts at 1? No! Because of the meanwhile close bonds between them and the already long running battle the remaining players let one player / team win.

There are a few games in which this sequence runs two times, but three times is already extremly rare.

If you know this typical flow of events you can delay your victory claim until another one does. Then you can play the role of a leader of the resitance, be the good guy and finally win without being challenged further. I'd appreciate if this wouldn't be so easy and the ones who dare to play aggressively have a better change to get the job done.
978 days, 11 hours, 2 minutes ago
Profile Image
vantucci
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Emork, Agreed. I have experienced that myself. I still just do not see how it's necessary to even have safe passage except in certain conditions (eg the "neutral party" is between the two feuding players or when doing so with privs due to rob/steal).

In Bilbo's case, how do we know they had safe passage set? It is still possible, however unlikely, that they all four just happen to decide to go against the same person (possibly the strongest?). They simply asked for minefield FCs.

-Minefield FCs can easily be used for safe passage through those.
-GSx FCs can be used to give/trade ships still.
-PE can be used to avoid attacking "friendly" races (or of course just plain good coordination).

Always keep in mind that all of this went on in the early days of VGA Planets, and they didn't have any of this diplomacy stuff. This is why again, I don't see how it will effectively deter the behavior you are seeking to remove.

IMO, it all comes down to finding people you can trust at their word to not talk to others in game. The only way I see to truly stop it is disable stuff that was in VGA Planets.

Again, I'm not against these settings... Just trying to give my perspective on how I see the effect of the proposed ideas. Even if instituted, I think a lot of people will still be complaining and be disappointed. I sort of liken it to the DH series. No matter how hard we tried, we seemed to always have someone who dropped even after "promising" they will stay til the end. Nothing we can do about it.
978 days, 10 hours, 52 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
> I don't see how it will effectively deter the behavior you are seeking to remove

There was a UserVoice request that was similar to this. Joshua declined it. I believe his reason for declining it is relevant to this discussion.

From https://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/2502025-max-allies-needs-to-include-intel-agreements

> After another 6 months of reviewing this, we’ve decided to leave things as is. Players can work together as tightly as they like, but can not win together. This scenario creates more diplomatic options, but doesn’t take anything away from players. As we get more into the new reward system, we’ll be stronger about what official winners vs non-winners get to encourage more consideration in levels of relationships. It is meaningless to join with someone in an intel agreement and help them win, but not be a winner yourself.
978 days, 9 hours, 42 minutes ago
Profile Image
issen adtur
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I'd like to note that those posting FOR are prior emperors, double rear-admirals, rear-admirals, and a Commodore playing since 3.0

I'm curious- are the team up on the big guy games you are referencing against weaker players?

-

I'm a commodore myself- but no 20 yr Vet, and I'm not ashamed to say finding a rear admiral as my neighbor or enemy has a tendency to pucker my butt-hole a little.

I'll reach out to every race in the game at some point, usually have a good idea of where everyone is- and will do EVERYTHING in my power to survive.

If that means a coalition- well a coalition it'll be.

--

If I was playing in a 0 ally game- it wouldn't change anything.

Unless the game specifically stated in the description (as some have done) not to communicate- solo only game-

Then diplomacy is a weapon- and I'll use it.
978 days, 8 hours, 53 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
"It is meaningless to join with someone in an intel agreement and help them win, but not be a winner yourself." Hmmm... I think the same, but it still happens. Once people realize they can't win the game they'll choose sides and sign safe passage/intel share => we'll have a team game.

“As we get more into the new reward system, we’ll be stronger about what official winners vs non-winners get to encourage more consideration in levels of relationships.“ I think reward system didn't really do anything like Joshua hoped in 2012. It's 2017 and this should be taken back into consideration.

People join together to kill a stronger opponent even in zero alliance games because it's too easy. These options don't need to be in the default games, but those who want to use them could use them to create games they like to join. It's _very_ dissappointing to play x months spending tens or hundreds of hours only to find the game has become a team game... Let the strong live and weak die. Many games would be a lot shorter (maybe even Capricorn would have ended couple of years ago) with these settings. I'm going to finish my current games (other one being a zero alliance team game), but not sure do I want to start a new one anymore.

If you want to play with allies, you join a game with 1 or more allies. If you want to play a game without allies, you can join zero ally game. If you get your ass kicked in a zero alliance game, do you have to safe passage + intel share etc with someone so you can survive or should you try to fight and learn from _your_ race or just die and go sign up a new game? If you are playing a zero alliance game and you start creating alliances you kind of ruin the idea of zero alliance game which means that you also ruin the game in some way for those who want to play without alliances.

Zero alliance games doesn't mean zero diplomacy. NAPs, borders, agreements to attack a common enemy (not side by side with overlapping minefields etc). There is always a way to cooperate (emails, screenshots, minefield fcodes etc), but it shouldn't be as easy as in alliance games.

Does it hurt anyone to have these options available? I don't think so.

- Admiral Thrain -
978 days, 8 hours, 35 minutes ago
Profile Image
mrchrstn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I agree. I voted.
978 days, 8 hours, 26 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Vantucci >> This is why again, I don't see how it will effectively deter the behavior you are seeking to remove.

Again, you can't prevent it but you make all operations of big gangs slower, weaker and more error-prone.

>> Minefield FCs can easily be used for safe passage through those.

Limits the possibility to define the battle order or go for left/side of the VCR.

>> PE can be used to avoid attacking "friendly" races (or of course just plain good coordination).

Using PE instead of KILL allows the opponents some nice maneuvers if they are at least two.

During my long time on the bridge I won many battles because I found a way to multiple things at the same time or create complex fleet configurations to deal with different kinds of posssible attackers. With SP/SI this would have been much harder and often impossible.

Another important argument: Without limitless SI/SP a 3rd partner in a 1-ally-game who is not submitting turns reliably but operates for you a Gorbie on rob mission or an Emerald on lay webs mission becomes a certain risk. I mean players which often are just persuaded to do something without good reason or do it because they are not really interested in this particular game. IMO it would be great to reduce the effect of such kind of assistance.



978 days, 8 hours, 19 minutes ago
Profile Image
vantucci
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Emork, Agreed.
978 days, 6 hours, 58 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
The UserVoice suggestion Joshua declined was about changing Intel Sharing to be effected by the Max Allies variable and announcing Share Intel publicly (like Full Alliance). It is not relevant to this topic and doesn't even hint at what Joshua would be inclined to approve.

Adding new feature requests tend to never be declined, either approved or just sit there forever.
___

@Meteor: Thank you for providing that relevant UserVoice suggestion!
___

So should we run with; https://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/10557816-create-in-0-ally-games-a-option-to-disable-ally-re

Or create a new one? Or a new one just for what it doesn't request?
976 days, 6 hours, 58 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I used Ted's uservoice suggestion and added my more general approach which would include the one of Ted.

I think this would allow for game setups which better match user demands. Additionally, it is not complex change. Please consider checking it out. It has 38 votes right now.

Vote here:
https://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/10557816-create-in-0-ally-games-a-option-to-disable-ally-re
976 days, 5 hours, 38 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
With regard to this point:
"Let's add the option. What can it hurt?"

There are, at present, 288 active conflicts. 11 are just getting started. Probably half of these are MvM or Beginner games; a few are private; a couple are championships. From my perspective, there's a distressingly high percentage of melees.

Basically, when I'm ready to dive into a new game, I have to wait a week for it to fill because there's already so many options, and much of the time I don't get a race I want. Sometimes, I'm driven to accept a replacement position as some Godawful race like Crystals, Robots, or Heaven help me the Feds.

And there's a proposal floating around that, if adopted, would restrict my best weapon to perhaps half of the games that now can use it.

Look, I like to talk. In any given game at any given time, I've probably got six conversations going. Half are with my enemies; half are with my friends -- and sometimes, the two groups don't know which they are. Which is reasonable enough; half the time, I don't know either. It'll depend on who does what and who's more polite.

That last is important. I'm not going to work with someone that isn't willing to take the time to talk and who won't bother to stay polite. Why? Because there's a decent chance that whoever that is will stop caring about the game entirely and drop. It's bad when my allies drop.

My advice? Take the time to talk. I was half-truthful before -- Diplomacy isn't the best weapon. It's actually the medium in which the game is played. People think of it as planets and ships, starbases and the build queue, but it's easy to forget: This is about people, and between people. The technical stuff is mostly just a distraction.

This is a suggestion I cannot like and would not support. And, since it'll highly inconvenience me if it goes through, I'm debating the creation of an opposing UserVoice suggestion.

Comments, gentlemen? (And ladies, of course.)
976 days, 5 hours, 2 minutes ago
Profile Image
frostriese
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Nobody wants to stop the all time gossip and hang around with your commanders in these sectors. Hell, thats one of the fun aspects in these long runing battles.

And I notice your little remark about considerations of players ... got it into my book.

Afaik - we want to prevent an easy way of forming big coalitions ... and about this you don't talk in your post :)

Talk to each and everyone ... or select the worthies commanders ... but don't share data to an unlimited number or form super stack of ships / abilities without any form of cost (communication time, failure rate). Thats about.

just my 2ct
976 days, 1 hours, 53 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
What are coalitions? A diplomatic weapon used on leaders by the weak.

What prevents coalitions? Diplomacy by the leader.

I'd suggest sharpening your diplomatic skills if you find yourself a constant victim to coalitions. Remove the diplomacy, and the games simply devolve into race conflicts, and we all know most of the races are not even close to even in strength.

If we are going to alter alliances, share intels, etc... I'd suggest we also ban scripts and add-ons. They are unfair and make game play easy. You should have to do the actual homework personally, not have some script show you all the ship courses, destinations, and stats. No coloring minefields... that's for chumps. Lets make everything hard, and complicated too. Down with coordination and simplicity! /s

I find so much irony with the level of the folks complaining too. No offense, but @Emork I believe you are just as meticulous and dedicated enough to actually jump through all the hoops you suggest to complicate alliances and share intels. This effectively means you would gain a strong advantage over the majority of folks who would not go through all the bother and time. Strong getting stronger, and preventing the only tool likely to defeat you in a game (coalition). That is a compliment to your skills, but I find your advocacy for crippling us lesser players distasteful (as well as those other strong players in your camp). Again, no insult intended as I have nothing but respect for your play and skill (and your opinion).

Diplomacy is a major tenet to this game, and you folks propose to cripple it as casually as adding another race or removing some major abilities. You in no way reflect upon the impacts to the game beyond it will make your life easier as a poor diplomat. You have your zero ally no talk games. Why ruin it for the rest of us who like the game the way it was created and generally run here?

My nickel's worth of dimes...
975 days, 20 hours, 44 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Lord Pollax, you don't have to join a game where share intel and safe passage etc is limited, do you?

You have x ally games (which is majority of games) where you can create whatever alliances and coalitions. Those who want to play _zero_ ally games without allies and coalitions have no games with ingame rules. Which means that most(?) zero ally games turn into same s**t as other games, the only difference is that there can be only one who gets the score. I don't care about the score or my standings that much, I want to play a game using my race's strengths and learn its cons and how to overcome them without an ally to fill the holes. So is it too hard to ask those optional rules?

They_do_not_need_to_be_implemented_in_every_game!

- Admiral Thrain -
975 days, 20 hours, 15 minutes ago
View ecatoncheires's profile
ecatoncheires
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Sorry to rain on your parade @Admiral_thrain, but although I could agree in the worth of implementing what is no else than a simple game option among many others, I see it as too easily exploitable... if such games would exist, anybody could (and will) join with their secret buddy, use phone and e-mail to co-ordinate, and just laugh all the way to first position.

The secret team employing dutiful care in their gameplay, you could not find certain proof of their wrongdoing even after game ends and data is published for all to see. This would lead to a plethora of cries for a cross-check of player activities to the admins, who I'm sure would really, really like to avoid.

"BUT, this could also happen in any other game right now!" - yes, but those games are not filled by players expecting real fair play... "secret" teams in non-team games are a daily occurrence around here. So, everybody is, or should be, prepared to that.

(Not that it happens in EVERY game, obviously, or we could as well as be doing something else altogether, instead of spending 1+ years in a game possibly rigged from the start).

P.S. If this format actually ends up on being available, I offer myself as the first member of the Secret Sneaky Bastards Team! ^_____^
975 days, 19 hours, 7 minutes ago
View smn's profile
smn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
"1. The first player/alliance gets ahead - probably because of good play. Unfortunately they don't know about a certain psychological trap.
2. Many of the other players / alliances start working together to prevent the leaders from winning. During this hard struggle they fight side by side, share defeats and victories and this creates close bonds.
3. The first alliance is smashed by the superior number of enemies and the incredible options of their stacked abilities. Now another player or alliance is the leading one.
4. All starts at 1? No! Because of the meanwhile close bonds between them and the already long running battle the remaining players let one player / team win.

There are a few games in which this sequence runs two times, but three times is already extremly rare."

@Emork very well summarized. We can see this happening all over the place. I like to think of the 'Path to victory' as the defining component here. The re-adjustment of alliances in order to take down the next leader often requires that the members who turn on the leader now still have a plausible way open towards victory. Because if one sees no real way to win anymore, why would one go through the diplomatic effort, emotional pain and take the reputation hit to start supporting friend B to win instead of friend A? Especially if doing so also might enable the original enemy to come back and win?

This is one big reason why I think the 'rebound' of players should be enabled. Once the ship limit is full and your fleet is diminished, there is no way to build up strength anymore. The path to win closes to a lot of players and then the fastest way to end the game with honor is to support the currently leading player. In this context, selfish play becomes not only automatic loss for you, but also for your allies. That is what I see as the core dynamic.

Thus I'm also a bit skeptical towards the proposed solutions. Not because I would think they are bad as-is, but because I think they are complexity-adding band-aid which doesn't really address the core reason for the big coalitions.

That said, I'm not against them either, as people already experiment with these with voluntary honor codes in player-hosted games. @Joshua and @Big+Beefer, I hope you pay attention to this, I reckon taking a look at what kind of house rules people set up and adhere to voluntarily is a very good indicator of what kind of settings the player base _really_ wants to experiment with.
975 days, 19 hours, 6 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@ecatoncheires Thanks in advance for ruining the game experience for others. Same applies to all exploiters no matter what game options are available. There are people who played as a team to get their score high enough to get into Emperor game as well... There are/will be exploiters and there are (early game) droppers which may ruin the whole game for others. I guess we just need to live with that.

There is no bulletproof system, but at least we could try to make the cooperation a bit harder for non-buddies in those games where cooperation is suppose have smaller effect.

Or are you guys just trolling because you don't anything better to do? If you don't like invasion type of games for example, do you go and write negative comments in those threads which are about invasion rules? I doubt.

- Admiral Thrain -
975 days, 18 hours, 29 minutes ago
Profile Image
nanning
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
As a small aside: limiting cooperation between the 11 races will make the HorWasps stronger. A zero ally/zero SP passage would be equal to giving each of the 11 races a penalty of 30 points.
975 days, 5 hours, 4 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Admiral_Thrane Your response is ridiculous! This is a war game! Every other race is a war target, period. Only direct diplomacy alters that course.

You have every tool at your disposal that they do. You can scout, find neighbors, and offer services/deals/partnerships that all yield the exact same benefits.

You assume all games start with everyone being a neutral diplomatic standing and that there are no player baggage attached. You are very wrong. Asshats and known droppers get targeted early. The Emorks should get targeted early, though they are usually so skillful with diplomacy they have everyone eating out of their hands till it's too late. The Borg get targeted. So do the Crystals. There are many, many things which influence the formations of allies and partners. You make a very novice assumption that an early relationship is better than one formed later on. And you also assume you can be friends with anyone you want... hate to rain on your parade but that is quite unlikely.

Language barriers, opinions of players formed by reading forum comments, and attitude all factor in to many folks deciding if they would deal with a player. Your comments to a player voicing an equal opinion contrary to yours is quickly cementing an opinion in me about any future dealings with you inside a game, I know that.
974 days, 19 hours, 50 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Lord_Pollax, "Account not found: admiral_thrane". I suppose we have some sort of misunderstanding here since I don't get it why you should be raging that much. Can you PM me if you want to talk about this more? I don't want to fill this thread with offtopic stuff. You and everyone else are free to form any kind of personal opinions about anyone. However, I recommend trying to reset your opinions when the game starts. Me and many others play and behave in each game very differently depending on the situation _ingame_ so I don't like making too early judgements at turn 1.

Like @smn said: "I reckon taking a look at what kind of house rules people set up and adhere to voluntarily is a very good indicator of what kind of settings the player base _really_ wants to experiment with."

Peace,

- Admiral Thrain -
974 days, 19 hours, 6 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
The mentioned uservoice suggestion isn't meant as a full solution for any problem. But it adds the possibility to much easier experiment with game setups which might or might not lead to a bit more dynamic, faster, warfare-based games, e.g. by limiting the number of SP.
This wouldn't prevent big temporary alliances. You don't need SP to have peace or trade ships or attack another player from different sides. But it would make a war 5 versus 2 a bit more diffcult for the gang of 5 than it is at the moment. Otherwise it doesn't change much - diplomacy is still key. Warfare skills just catch up a little bit.

Gnerphk >> Basically, when I'm ready to dive into a new game, I have to wait a week for it to fill

Is this a complaint or a praise?
974 days, 1 hours, 25 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Apologies for getting the name wrong @Admiral_Thrain . The fact that you are not understanding that I am exactly on topic is actually the issue I am speaking of. You do not understand diplomacy fully, and are trying to create a game restriction to act as a crutch because of your wrong impressions. The fault lies with poor diplomacy, not the fact that others actually use it better.

I don't like pre-game alliances personally, but I consider it their right to do so and a handicap, since frankly they have no clue yet whether their alliance is actually viable. My alliance later on WILL be viable, giving me the advantage.

If I recall correctly, it was you who made it very clear you were keeping a list of supposed "naughty" players who broke deals or did stuff you considered dishonorable, and carrying that mark forward to all their games. That doesn't sound like clearing of any slates at the beginning of each game to me. Just saying...

Diplomacy is warfare. It wins more games than turns 1-20 ship building, in my opinion.

You cannot have FAIR dynamic warfare based games when half the races have no ability to match up with the others. Give everyone the same ship list. That is fair. Boring, but fair. You can then see who is the better commander and tactician. Sort of like the All-Star car racing events where everyone drives the same thing.
974 days, 0 hours, 23 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Lord+Pollax: "If I recall correctly, it was you who"

Well you don't recall correctly. Totally different guy.
974 days, 0 hours, 20 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Maybe it was that Admiral Thrane guy... lol : )
973 days, 23 hours, 40 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Lord+Pollax: http://play.planets.nu/#/account/thrane
973 days, 23 hours, 34 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Ahh, ok... so it was very close sounding. Just a rank off. Thanks!
973 days, 21 hours, 51 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Lord+Pollax No, it's a bit more than "just a rank off". I recommend you to edit your messages and remove those parts which you wrote because you failed diplomacy preschool lesson: Make sure you know who you are talking to. Thanks. And apologies would be nice as well.

Can someone explain me why people resist so hard possible OPTIONAL options?

- Admiral Thrain -
973 days, 15 hours, 51 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Well, it has 53 votes now. Number 11 in the high score.
973 days, 5 hours, 43 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Actually, having you mistaken for another changes absolutely nothing as the observation where I referred to him is not critical to my argument at all. It was an observation that proved wrong... mea culpa already noted above. You are not caught being hypocritical, congratulations.

I apologized for getting your name wrong already, but everything else excepting my incorrect recollection on a tangent is spot on. Nothing needs to be edited, as any name can be used and the points are still valid and appropriate.

You are welcome to join me in any game to give me some diplomatic schooling. I know you will of course be neutral. I will. : )

And the reason we present dissenting opinions? Because OPTIONS tend to become permanent, and OPTIONS which break games need to be killed in their infancy. Your OPTIONS is a death sentence to at least 4 races before the first turn is complete. Potentially 2 more as well. We can't get "options" which were traditionally in VGAP (Starbase money transfers for all, engine tech shield bonus, etc), So I am sorry if I don't want to support options that make the game almost unplayable for some races.

Straight up wars between races with no diplomatic tools would doom the EE and Birds even more than they are now, and leave the Feds and Fascists with few options but a prolonged death. Lizards and Pirate would struggle mightily, but might hang on with supremely good players. Not everyone is at Emork's level of play, so handicapping 4-6 races right off the bat is just plain wrong.

Full un-adulterated diplomacy is absolutely essential to the game; options disabling that are not.

973 days, 5 hours, 34 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
... Joshua just added a new Race that doesn't utilize Diplomacy.

... Past Emperor's Emork and Josnoffy both are in Lone Wolf II.
973 days, 5 hours, 30 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
And I'm sure if folks were actually given a vote, the Horwasps would not exist today.

Emork and Joe only benefit from zero diplomacy... how that proves a point I'm unsure. Coalitions are probably the only thing that can stop them in all honesty.
973 days, 5 hours, 3 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Commodore @Admiral_thrain -- I did explain it. I presented a nice detailed argument against. I want you to play Lone Wolf games or similar and be content.

And yes, it's just as Pollax says: Great players benefit from zero diplomacy. I am NOT a great player; I'm a good one who happens to be a skilled diplomat, a generous ally, and a ruthless enemy. So I rely on always having all options in diplomacy open.

There's also a theoretical argument against closing diplomatic options: To do so reduces the possibility of a backstab. Which sounds good and all, but really it means that you're chaining yourself to one allied player position come hell or high water. The lack of flexibility, quite seriously, will ruin more games than not.

As has been mentioned before, this is especially true for Feds, Fascists, Birds, Privateers, and Crystals.
973 days, 2 hours, 48 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Gnerphk >> There's also a theoretical argument against closing diplomatic options: To do so reduces the possibility of a backstab.

Just wanna make clear that my suggestion is not about turning off diplomacy. In a game with a 1 ally, 1 SI, 1 SP limitation you could still have unlimited trades, talks, helpers and you could backstab your ally as often as you want. The only change to a current 1 ally game is that it's a bit harder to coordinate a war of you, your ally and 3 helpers against the other poor guy because you can't set SP with 4 other players and e.g. make all fly through webs easily.

Btw, a zero diplomacy game like Lone Wolf is mainly a finger excercise for economy and tactics. You can't influence your fate as much as in a game with diplomacy. The initial race and skill distribution has a huge effect on winning odds. Racial weaknesses can't be compensated by ship or ability trades.
It was claimed that this game variant favours players which are already quite good. The opposite is true. The odds to defeat a better player just because you have the right race to do so are much higher in such an environement.
973 days, 2 hours, 23 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Correction Emork, it "MAY" be true. You are correct the odds are better statistically speaking, but reality dictates that you overstate your case.

Average player playing poor race vs you and a good race = doomed

Average player playing poor race vs you playing poor race = doomed

Average player playing good race vs you playing good race = doomed

Average player playing good race vs you playing bad race = maybe even

At best, the average player slightly improved, and only if you select a poor race. I notice you selected the Borg and the Colonies for your two Lone Wolf games. You did not choose poorly. Good players won't.

If you want fair games with out all the racial stuff, create a set up with all the players getting a generic ship list. Everybody the same. That would be a true test of skills and ability.

Borgs stomping on Birds is not a skill test. It is inevitable.
972 days, 15 hours, 46 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
The Borg are a weak race in a LW game. These are high level games. Everyone expands fast and a Borg won’t be able to build viable far away outposts. Even if he finds a spot which is safe for many turns: since the general mineral reduction only a few planets have a base and a FCC inside. The Borg have problems surviving the early game and the only way to do so is to buy peace with your neighbours by alliance or FCC trading offers. Both is forbidden in LW games.
In LW I my Borgs woke up between Birdmen and Rebels. The first FCC was shot down by a Resolute in T9 less than 3 turns away from my homeworld. Soon after that a pair of Rushes approached from the other side. End of hope …
In LW II my Colonials had Pirate neighbours. Not much fun if you have no chance to get decloaking technology. You see, even the strong races have archenemies. That why I say in LW games a lot (of course not all) depends on the starting positions.

I'm still convinced that an average player has a higher chance to beat a top player in a LW game than in a standard game (unless he has abundant buddies in this sector).
972 days, 14 hours, 37 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Again you overstate your case. You got served up on a platter and wrecked, based upon your description. You finished 4th Emork. That is a damn fine finish for normal folks. You act like it was finishing 11th (as you sort of imply you did).

And the Colonials? Yeah... horrible fate. You are in 1st place. Fascists (led by the also brilliant Joesnoffy) are making a push for win. 2 of the best players on the site on top of a no diplomacy game... go figure.

You are not convincing me at all.
972 days, 2 hours, 31 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I've left this alone for twelve hours, @Lord+Pollax, but every time I scroll past I feel like I'm about to burst.

I'm not speaking for Emork here; I'm speaking for me. And when I play, I either win or lose. The difference between third place and fourth or even eleventh is meaningless to me. And I think that's one reason I end up in first so much of the time.

Once I know I'm not going to win, that makes it suddenly very hard for me to keep playing. I need to come up with a new goal, something else to drive me. I recall one game where a player agreed to Share Intel and then didn't; when I took him to task on it, he rather smugly informed me that I was foolish to be so trusting. My goal for the next fifty turns in that game was to annihilate him utterly, which I did.

It's all about what the goal is, though. Sometimes it's to destroy; others it's to support. But there has to be a goal.

Does that make sense?
972 days, 1 hours, 30 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
In short, no. : )

Obviously we all start the game with hopes of winning, but there are too many factors beyond your control which can greatly influence the outcomes. Planet cluster natives, what races are neighbors, storms, etc all can cripple your chances for a win.

But finishing WELL, when under those adverse conditions, much like Emork did with the Borg... that has a certain satisfaction for me too. If I play well, the outcome is irrelevant to me. I did the best with what I had. Using Emork's game again, I think I would have been proud of that game considering he was in a position to be eliminated early yet persisted and finished strong. To call oneself a loser after that effort is to me senseless.

Maybe that is always my goal... to play well. And when I do, I put myself into a position to contend for the win more often than not. I play hard either way, regardless of my position... not for just me mind you. It is for the enjoyment of those others in the game. Now some would call that senseless since you already know you cannot win. To not put forth my best efforts would be selfish, and not meet the spirit of "Die Hard" which I really think should be everyone's mantra.

The dehumanizing of the game by eliminating diplomacy is also against the spirit of the game, in my opinion. The interactions are what make the game great, and how I have met so many awesome people. Yourself included Gnerphk.
971 days, 23 hours, 2 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
"Gnerphk: Once I know I'm not going to win, that makes it suddenly very hard for me to keep playing."

Well THAT explains a lot.
___

I play this game because it is fun... cooperating in alliances can be a bit of a chore and for me less enjoyable. That is why I voted for these new features. I only play Crystals and I'm tired of everyone bending over backwards to entice me into their van.
___

"Lord+Pollax: Obviously we all start the game with hopes of winning"

I don't... I played VGA Planets back before there were Win Conditions.

Unsurprisingly all of your arguments are about winning and not about fun.

971 days, 23 hours, 2 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Why, thank you, sir. :o)
971 days, 22 hours, 57 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Oh, well, as to that I've always found victory to be enjoyable enough, and defeat to be disheartening. Perhaps it's a corollary to my mindset.

But then again, it is useful to people like me to have other people in the game who aren't as dedicated to the pursuit of victory as I am. So I suppose I shouldn't be complaining. ;o)

(This is all about 50% tongue-in-cheek, by the way. It's true, and it's nothing but the truth, but it's not the whole truth.)
971 days, 21 hours, 54 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Gnerphk: The first thing I learned playing Doom multiplayer back in the 90's... is that you have to not care about winning... otherwise sweaty palms and you do poorly. Only thing that even slightly upsets me is making silly mistakes... I can handle catastrophic tactical choices resulting in defeat just fine.
971 days, 18 hours, 57 minutes ago
Profile Image
zoojump
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I don't understand why anyone would want to reduce the ability of players to work together. That's how you win. If you are tired of loosing to coalitions then try being nicer to people and form your own coalitions.

Diplomacy is the greatest wild card in this game. If you take that out and just leave the game mechanics then how are new inexperienced players supposed to beat advanced players?
971 days, 18 hours, 31 minutes ago
View ted's profile
ted
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Planets at all were created with friendly codes to form, temporary, friendly alliances. To keep this running, it means both or more parts need to synchronize their codes. It is not for free, it needs caution and discipline or friendly-fire result, but what is in any warfare even a realistic component. No diplomacy is cut off if there is a restriction for a reasonable amount of Save Passage or higher relation. It is a really reasonable game option what also seems easy to implement, but some of you who speak against this may feel a hidden agenda behind this. The (my) truth is, the current unlimited switch to turn on and off ally relation create in some games really ... questionable situations. I don't want to say that since Planets NU simplified alliance to a level that it create in a row only something like fly-by-night Commanders. However, the effect of irresponsible behavior spread more or less each time frustration in some sectors. So, instead that Commander get frustrated, they have at least an option to minimize this. So from this point of view, no advances Commander really can protest about this reasonable option.
971 days, 18 hours, 30 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@zoojump Should all games be inexperienced friendly? If the difficulty modifier looks too high, skip the game. If the game setup isn't your liking, skip the game.

There are team games and there classic games etc, but there is no official host settings for a game where everyone plays using their race's own strengths. If you don't like such a game, don't join one?

It's like you are saying that you like team games and you play those. That's fine. But I like to play non-team game and I shouldn't be able play in one. Does it sound right?

Zero ally does NOT mean ZERO DIPLOMACY.

You might even learn more about your race when you can only use its strengths and not relying someone else's racial strengths to overcome your problem. You learn nothing from playing Rebels vs Privateers if you are Rebels and Privateers attack you and you ally with Tholians who web your territory. So what if you lose your fight to the Privateers, but I'm 150% sure you have learnt a lot more than relying on webs. Next time you are better prepared to fight such a fight.

I haven't lost any of my games to coalitions. Of course I do my best to form another coalition to fight the other one. But I'm not the first who starts to create coalitions since I don't like ability stacking... it kills the fun. It's just plain stupid to play a zero ally game for example only to find yourself playing in a game where others team up. There are team games for teams and there should be games for soloers where cooperation is limited one way or another by host settings.

There are reasonable number of people who are forced to use gentleman rules to make this work. Isn't that clear enough sign that there is a need for this kind of host setup? If not, what is?

- Admiral Thrain -
971 days, 18 hours, 8 minutes ago
Profile Image
zoojump
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Firstly I always approve of more options. Even ones I wouldn't use myself.

My understanding though is that a "Team game" is one in which the alliances are fixed from the start. You are in a team and you cannot leave and join another team.

What you seem to be talking about is just a regular game where people work together.

Players work out that it is obviously in their best interests to co-operate with other factions rather than fight them. As it should be. Getting players to co-operate closely with you and knowing who to trust is part of the skill involved.

If I co-operate with a potential rival instead of fighting him and use that to defeat you...that means my awareness and my diplomatic skills are better than yours. You have failed to master all the skills required to master the game and you deserve to lose. You have not unfairly found yourself "playing a team game." You have found yourself in a normal game where it's obviously in your best interests to collaborate but you have chosen not to.

If you think it's unfair that players work together then you should either stick to non ally games or you should fight fire with fire and form your own coalitions.

When two rival players are seeking the help of a third, then whoever is the more persuasive should win out. If you're not very good at persuading people to help you win, then you are not very good at planets.
971 days, 18 hours, 8 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Zero ally games already exist. See Championships as example.

@Glyn Of course I'm trying to win... it is a basic premise of playing any competitive game. You are most welcome to my Poker Night however... I like people playing that just for fun and not mind the money lost. :)

Max Ally = 0 Fixed your problem. And already exists. If a solo win doesn't reflect your race's strength, what else will?
971 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
The last comments nicely demonstrated that players have different intentions and goals when entering a game of planets. Add different experience levels to that. When I was new to this game a lot of things didn't matter to me which now affect my personal fun in a game a lot. My conclusion is that - unless we talk about general changes for the site created games - it's good to have configuration options. If the requested area of configuration is not important to you or you don't understand the related explanation then just don't vote.
971 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Lord+Pollax "Max Ally = 0 Fixed your problem." Err... no. I hoped that would be the case, but...

In my current game (http://planets.nu/#/sector/169772) which is a zero ally game. Privateers have safe passage with Gorn, Tholians, Empire and are cooperating with Gorn and Tholians. Tholians are working with Gorn and Privateers and have safe passages with them. I (Klingons) had to start cooperating with Empire and Federation to counter Tholians + Gorn + Privateers so we have safe passages. Some turns back Federation gave all his ships to me because he didn't want to play anymore. I've been trading ships with Empire and Federation. Empire is friendly with Romulans, me and Privateers. I think Romulans have safe passages with Empire. Romulans used to have with Tholians as well, but dropped it and decided to attack him. Does this sound problem solved? Is everyone fighting with their own strenghts? I think nobody is.

IF problem would be solved, Gorn and Privateers wouldn't be flying in web covered territory nor I would be able to lay triple minefields (Fed, Empire and Klingon) nor Gorn would be able to feed cash to Tholians for webs nor Federation be able to transfer his whole fleet to me (which changed the balance quite significantly for my favor).

IF problem would be solved the game would end probably 100 turns sooner...

- Admiral Thrain -
971 days, 17 hours, 0 minutes ago
Profile Image
zoojump
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Emork I agree with you completely. It's always good to have extra options and I have no problem with an option for limiting diplomatic relations if that's what people want.

In terms of making this setting the default, I would have to strongly disagree. For me, diplomacy makes this game. It's the one area where players can really let their own personality affect the course of a match. A good diplomatic player can have his enemies flying round in circles shooting each other instead of fighting him. It's a great leveller for newbie players and also great way to make new friends.
971 days, 16 hours, 48 minutes ago
View admiral_thrain's profile
admiral_thrain
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I agree with @zoojump, these options should be optional and not included in the default settings.

- Admiral Thrain -
971 days, 16 hours, 47 minutes ago
View ted's profile
ted
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Zoojump
>great way to make new friends.

And here is your big mistake and why we at least an option should be implemented. Planets is not a game to make real friends because Game wide friends act sooner or later not as Commander, they act as friends only. There a lot of examples in games where not in-game diplomacy decide a game, it is ONLY friendship. I all time wonder if I see in games (like the started Cancer war) that Player start to speak with each other in real names. Dear Commander, I am not here to make Friends, I am here to play sometimes with or against Opponents! :)
971 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes ago
View iso--t's profile
iso--t
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I have not seen ANY good explanation why we should not have more OPTIONS to configure our games. And this particular option is one that has been requested by many players many times.

If someone does or does not want to play limited diplomacy relations game is totally different thing
971 days, 9 hours, 53 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Ted I strongly disagree. I have friends in here I have no issues fighting. Some of my best partners are now hated enemies. And we still talk about what our families did last weekend.

I met some great people at the Con, including our current Emperor, and they were awesome to hang with and share some adult beverages with. But I'll kill every Darth Balls ship I see in my game where we lie on opposing teams. No hesitation or qualms.

Is diplomacy easier with friends? Yes. Does it mean I get everything I want from them? Hell no! Does it mean I'll sacrifice trying to win because so-n-so is playing? Lol, hell no times 2.

Players always have the option to limit share intel, NAPS, etc. There are games already doing it. It requires honor of course. But my experience with the honor system has been outstanding, with 2 PLS games finished where we had no problems with player exploits. Sounds like the LW games are doing well too.

So what is there to fix? There is nothing our developers should be wasting time on, especially with real broken things still in the game. Looking at you random number generator.
971 days, 8 hours, 4 minutes ago
View ted's profile
ted
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
>Is diplomacy easier with friends? Yes. Does it mean I get everything I want from them?

Sorry, but that's a bit naive view and show me that you are not really want to see the point.

Even we discuss only another option to configure games. And, I am sure it is more welcome than your (more random) random number generator :)
971 days, 7 hours, 29 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Lord Pollax >> So what is there to fix? There is nothing our developers should be wasting time on.

I don't know if you know about programming but the requested change isn't a big thing to implement. Why don't you let the votes decide? The RNG fix you mentioned has more votes anyway so you have good chances to get what you want. The last word has Joshua of course - no matter how many votes a suggestion has.
Your engagement to prevent something a significant number of players want is a bit irritating. A community works best if everyone is recognised.


969 days, 6 hours, 29 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
As much as I find irritating the attempts to quash open and honest discussions on changes. The majority is always right, using your logic it seems.

Pardon me if I disagree with your argument of "Since it can be easily done and is requested by a few of the overall players, it should be added to the programming." And that is exactly what your "significant numbers" are... a very tiny fraction of the overall numbers. Overstating your support significantly, me thinks.

As I get no say in any of the Site decisions, I cannot let anything be decided by votes or otherwise. I can however do as I have done, and voiced my concerns. Joshua is free to do as he wills. I sincerely doubt my opinion matters a whole lot, as they are focused on ways to encourage more revenue... not necessarily making us players happy who are already paying. A simple fact I accept.

I'm not exactly sure how my comments have prevented anyone from being recognized here. I've been actually stimulating more discussion, and that has been productive in my opinion. While I may only be a peasant compared to you in rank, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. If only one person is able to derail your suggestion, then I'd counter that your suggestion must truly be weak. If indeed what you imply is true.
969 days, 5 hours, 28 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Emork >> A community works best if everyone is recognised.

Pollax >> The majority is always right, using your logic it seems.


I search for the logic here ... no result.

---

Emork >> Why don't you let the votes decide?

Pollax >> And that is exactly what your "significant numbers" are... a very tiny fraction of the overall numbers. Overstating your support significantly, me thinks.


We both don't know what the silent people think. All we know is that the suggestion got a relatively high number of votes in the user voice tool and that in this thread neither pro or contra has a vast majority.
I don't know how you calculate a "very tiny fraction" for one positon with these informations.

---

Emork >> ???

Pollax >> While I may only be a peasant compared to you in rank, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.


I don't see where I claimed this. Mabe you refer to my explanation that more game experience leads to different demands.
You're using a classic rhetorical figure here which should present you as a fighter for equal rights which in fact never were questioned. This is foul play.

969 days, 4 hours, 38 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
If you actually quoted the relevant parts perhaps your search would have yielded fruit. You claim an "significant number" and imply I am alone or in the small minority. You also expressed irritation with my minority wiewpoint, and implied I should remain silent. You feel that I am wrong in view, and that you are right. Representing the majority view (in your mind anyhow), that makes the majority right. I've never met a majority that didn't think they were right. So yes, "always" seems appropriate.

Actually, I never claim to know the feelings of the silent masses. I simply know that you and your supports AT BEST represent a small fraction of even the vocal folks who speak in the forum much less the overall masses. Your "significant numbers" are not even a few dozen, and voting allows multiple votes cast by a single person. Thousands play this game at Nu, so I stand by my statement.

You have challenged my ability to assess the impacts of this change on high level players. You have directly contradicted my assessment and downplayed what I consider significant benefits players like yourself would get should such settings be allowed. I am indeed speaking for the players of lesser skill and experience when I say the proposal is dangerous for them. I did not make any claims of you stating I was of too low of rank to know, but observers reading this might simply look solely at ranks and go "He was an Emperor, and LP is only a Captain, so what does he know?" I make that statement to clearly argue that this rank differential is irrelevant to who is right or wrong. I challenge the reader to independently assess, then decide. So it is not foul play, and your attempt to feign some kind of slight is deceptive. A nice attempt to sway opinion though.... bravo!

I am not asking anyone to take my word on the perils of such a change. Reason it out for yourself. If players like Joesnoffy and Emork are near impossible to beat in current game settings, how are folks likely to succeed in settings restricting their ability to amass a coalition? This is a simple proof, but quite valid.
969 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
View iso--t's profile
iso--t
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I still can not see why more options can be bad. If someone thinks Emork is too strong in a game with limited safe passages - he can ignore this type of game. I think majority would take the challenge though...
969 days, 3 hours, 59 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Everyone is up for the challenge of taking on an Emork or Joesnoffy handcuffed by settings, yet are concerned by coalitions and safe passages enough to want game changes?!!

Not up for the challenges of Standard games? Actual real diplomacy?

I'm just not understanding the argument here. You want challenges, just not the challenges of facing a coalition of poorly positioned players or negotiating deals to counter superior skill players.

I push back because look at the new game list. How many normal games are there? One Standard and one Classic out of 13 games. We also have 3 specialized Standards (a beginner, a slow, and a fleet officer). Someone coming here from VGAP has one choice for a game similar to what he used to play, and one beginner of the Nu types. Unless you wish to jump in as a replacement, there are few game options for plain old normal games (especially for certain better race choices). How many more choices of games do we really need?

And look, a custom game with the desired settings being manually controlled. My argument that what you seek can already be done is firmly set in place now.
968 days, 20 hours, 23 minutes ago
View ted's profile
ted
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
>How many more choices of games do we really need?

The game needs as many choices the Player wants because the Player is the one who plays this game. This is even no new task, it's since the early days that the PLAYER can decide under what game settings and own rules they want to play. Nothing, ever, can speak against that the game creation process own more and more configurable settings. Keep open your mind...



968 days, 19 hours, 29 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I have to disagree, Ted. In principle I think you're right, but in practice, sometimes I find it hard to get a game and position that I want to play.

I believe we need about fifty percent more members first, to be frank.
968 days, 19 hours, 27 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Hey 62 votes now! (was at 38 before this thread)

@Admiral_thrain: As the thread gets longer, it'd probably be better to edit your original post adding the the UserVoice link to it;

https://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/10557816-create-in-0-ally-games-a-option-to-disable-ally-re
968 days, 19 hours, 17 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Pollax, I have trouble to understand your last comment towards me. Maybe it's a problem with the meaning of words? I'm no native speaker, you know. I explain my problems with your argumentation below.
Forgive that after that I stop discussing with you about it if no new arguments show up. I explained my position as much as I can and there are other nice things to do.

---

Pollax >> You claim an "significant number" and imply I am alone or in the small minority.

significant: Most meanings in my dictonary don't equal to "majority". It's more the opposite. You use the term "significant" if you can't claim you're in the majority but want to express that your number is high enough that it should matter. This fits to the meaning of this term in German and it is what I meant.


----

Pollax >> I am indeed speaking for the players of lesser skill and experience when I say the proposal is dangerous for them.

option: My propsal is to offer an option. My dictionary says "option" is something you can chose or not. Something like the opposite of mandatory.
An option itself can not be dangerous only the decision you make.
968 days, 19 hours, 10 minutes ago
View ted's profile
ted
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Gnerphk
>I believe we need about fifty percent more members first, to be frank.

They Planets Community will never raise more than a specific amount of Player for the sad but logical reason that 99% of the current Player are between 40 and 65. Planets is a game for "freaks" and will, looking on so many new games with a lot more of development manpower, remain as still living dinosaur inside the wide range of strategy games. So for my view, is far more important to take care of the current community than to try to hire new player. In short, you need to make Player happy and that they stay happy. And, Gnerphk ,you need to protect Player from ... self in some ways.
968 days, 17 hours, 52 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
There is certainly something to what you say, @Ted, in particular with regard to player retention.

I still object at present, and for what I feel to be sufficient reasons, but I'll consider what you've said and reconsider the context of the thread. It takes a while for my mind to shift course sometimes, but it is possible.
968 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Well a lot of my old VGAP3 playing friends are just too busy to play, once they retire that may change.
968 days, 5 hours, 54 minutes ago
Profile Image
lord pollax
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
I believe I will conclude my efforts here with a simple truism: You can't always get what you want.

Some have expressed desires to add things from VGAP days, but that has fallen on deaf ears in spite of a tremendous amount of agreement on the nostalgia added. But it won't add new players.

Some have expressed desires to not be limited to a single application of a race in an 11 player setting (or 2 in some special set-ups). This was to support faction wars (Feds vs Fascists as an example). There has been a lot of interests in this. But it won't add new players.

Almost the entire website asked for an ignore button, and it took an eternity to finally get a limited ability to do this (primarily on the threat of paying folks leaving).

Many folks have wanted the option to eliminate ship limits from games, far more than have expressed interests here on eliminating diplomatic options, and yet even though this is a simple addition, it has not come close to being allowed "officially" and remains limited in unofficial methods.

I do embrace options in games, but want them to be meaningful and fair. Otherwise you end up with Mentor Vs Midshipmen with Mentors in Crystal or Privateer colors which harms the whole point of that particular scenario. There must be some limitations for the good of all. Even if it is a significant part of us that wants something.

The good of all right now appears to be revenue generation, and that is where they are focusing their efforts. If it keeps the site alive, I support that choice. I still hope more fixes (RNG) and options do come available. I might even embrace your suggestion if there is a rank limit on the game so only the most experienced can join it, since it does unbalance the game in my opinion.

I do want us paying players kept happy, but know we generally are ignored with the bulk of our requests because of the lack of generation of money. While I have considered the mobile phone and Horwasp endeavors to be largely failures, I do have hope for the path discussed at the convention in the upcoming years.

Peace.
957 days, 19 hours, 39 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
BUMP
954 days, 5 hours, 43 minutes ago
Profile Image
nerim
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
Will may be kill Orion and Crystal.
Or will make them Incredebil powerful as they cud get Trades other not.
Dont see me wrong it is incredebil that i dont get the Most schiptyps more get the Traders or Pressing invaders and Frinschip get more Kind of schips as an Orion.
And in thes Games i alway was Under the Stongest Races.

Unfair play was ever happend even in the old Times .

But what we get is hided doubel acount Trubel Acounts and Dropping acounts and several other thinks.
Most Games were the winning most influnse from dropping Acounts that becomes reale dangerus in total etc ........

In this Time it is easer to trade a ship what you want then to steel it.

At the end i be for that but at wich conditions.

May be give more Power (Options) to the Players i feel helples somtimes but cud also be missused ......
952 days, 7 hours, 12 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
@Nerim: We could use your votes to make this a reality; https://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/10557816-create-in-0-ally-games-a-option-to-disable-ally-re
929 days, 0 hours, 10 minutes ago
Profile Image
glyn
RE: Wouldn't it be nice if there are options in the game setup...Write Reply
BUMP (65 votes so far!)