An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...

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354 days, 2 hours, 5 minutes ago
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escogido
An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu.

Dear developers!

First of all, thank you for keeping this project up. There is simply no other game like VGA planets, and you made it possible to play it in browser age. I am very happy to be here, and I would very much like for this project to be successful for many years to come.

Which is why I would like to voice some of my concerns on the direction you guys appear to be taking with this project. I have been making online games for 20 years, as designer, developer, and product (i.e. revenue) manager. Maybe some of what I am about to say will help.

Let me start with what I think we are good at, what are our potential USPs.
- we have distinct strategies and tactics for practically every race - something most successful 4X games don't deliver
- we offer a fun and meaningful PvP experience for multiple players in a game - again, many turn-based strategy games out are only so-so at PvP, and almost no one has anything better than 1v1
- we have a passionate and dedicated community that is willing to help - ok not a USP but still a good thing

Areas where we are not so good:
- there are many outdated game design elements - for example, having both missions and special friendly codes is confusing
- we are not a good fit for a casual game - Planets is meant to be a hardcore strategy player experience, one that requires dedication

With that in mind, let's see how this maps onto plans announced at the PlanetsCon.

In his presentation BB said you guys are getting most of your traffic from mobile (partly because you have better visibility there due to keyword searches in app stores?). The numbers given - 2% first day retention - sadly, are abysmal, and we also lose many of those who persevere after they get crushed in the first game. (For the record, today's industry's idea of target numbers for a good mobile game's retention is 40-20-10 - that is, 40% of your players come back to play the next day after installation, 20% still come back after a week, and 10% still play in a month.) It seemed to me that the train of thought went like this: since we are getting most of our traffic from mobile, mobile is where we're going to get our new regulars from, but we're not doing a good job at getting these players interested, so there are two areas of improvement: we need to make game playable on mobile devices, and we need to do a much better job onboarding new players.

While I'm all for interface and tutorial improvements, I would like to talk about the end goal for these efforts.

Planets, the full game, is not really a mobile friendly game - especially so for phones, which are actually quite a different animal than tablets. You can't really make complete turns in meaningful games while sitting on a toilet or waiting for a bus - no matter how friendly the UI is, no matter how good the onboarding is, you need the utility of a reasonably large screen to fully realize the game strategy's potential. I made a few turns out of necessity using an iPad last year; it was painful but borderline acceptable, but laptop/desktop screen is clearly superior. So if the end goal for the mobile interface improvement is to provide an mobile alternative to PC experience, then I would urge you to ditch phones and focus solely on tablets.

Maybe one could only keep phones available for a 1v1 beginner level game, where UI is simple and there are few decisions to make every turn, and to nudge the player to "get a tablet/computer for full experience". But then the question is how much would this kind of player be interested in the full game. If it is our potential sophisticated strategy game player, then we are not really showing them the good things about our game, so they may be deterred by simplicity of their initial experience; and if it is a player who would only be interested in that kind of level of complexity, they won't play the full game anyways, so the whole point is moot.

And yes good mobile UI would work well for blitzes, new games, diplomacy, taking a quick look at a new turn, or making small changes to a turn, but none of these replace the experience of a real game. Unless you're looking at getting mostly-Blitz players, or some sort of simplified kind of game as your end goal, in which case it is no longer core VGA Planets experience, but rather a "create some sort of VGA Planets derivative and hope it would work out better for retention than the core game" kind of initiative.

Second, on traffic quality. I would argue that since we are a rather niche'y game, people who are looking for a mobile experience are in general not a good match for this kind of hardcore games. There is already a game out there that IS a good fit for the mobile audience, called Neptune's Pride (https://np.ironhelmet.com/), and which is essentially a dumbed down to the core PBEM. (Their UI design is actually decent, so definitely worth taking a look as a reference.) I kind of feel that game (NP) goes about as far as core mobile experience could possibly get you strategy depth-wise - which is perhaps 10% of what Planets can offer. With that in mind, I believe the problem with mobile signups is less that the game is doing a poor job of getting these players interested, and more that they wouldn't be THAT much interested even under ideal conditions after all. And so providing them with better UI and better onboarding is not really going to solve much of the root cause problem.

What am I suggesting as alternative then? Recruiting from PC 4X strategy games playerbase. There are plenty of players playing games by Paradox studio, and plenty of players playing games by Amplitude studio, and many of them are our potential players. And boy oh boy, do we have something to offer them! Only Endless Space series comes somewhere close in how different their races are, but even the least similar races in ES2 are more similar to each other than Rebels and Colonies in Planets. So if you guys have a marketing budget, I would kindly suggest to try to target these. Yes, the problem of onboarding still applies here as well, but, frankly, anyone who survived the UI and featureset of Europa Universalis is not going to be intimidated by ours either - as long as they see the potential. And to see this potential, they need a mix of great MvM experience, plus a good way to bring friends over without disrupting the free-for-all fabric of the experience, as nothing beats a first-hand introduction to a complicated system. (For this last purpose perhaps it would make sense to implement some sort of a clan system here where resources collected by individual members are pooled, but clan members can't participate in the same "ranked" game other than as part of a team in a team game.) That is where I believe the primary focus of the team should be.

Finally, I would like to comment on two closely related things - the current player progression system (known as "meta-game" in game design) and monetization. I really like how the rating/title system is designed, that is a complicated task and what has been implemented seems to be doing the job nicely. I also like the mechanic of leveling up individual "officers" to indicate everyone's performance with each race. What I do find myself confused is the whole Campaign and gathering-resources-to-research-advantages system. It is currently designed to work like this: there is a game with a superset of Planets features, and my progression as player is reflected by how many features I am able to use in these games, competing against people who likely unlocked more or fewer said features. This really only works if I want to play Campaign more than the game wants me to play Campaign, and I doubt that has to be the case:

- Campaign is different from Planets enough so as long as core audience is mostly VGA Planets players, it's going to be "not the same game".
- Campaign features have not really been tested well, and are thus rather unbalanced. These features need players to playtest them - and the system is set up to artificially restrict players from doing so.
- Making availability of Campaign features through progression a la carte means people are in different starting positions depending on their contribution to the game, so similar to pay-to-win models to some degree. It's like going to play a chess game with a rook in place of a queen because you haven't unlocked queens yet, and playing against a guy with 7 knights because they are just starting out.

At the very least what I would do instead is provide "full research of a race advantages in campaign" packs for a nominal amount - say, $3-5 per race, and $20-40 for all race advantages in a bundle. (It should still be possible to earn these through accumulation of resources from regular games.) This way, we at least know that everyone in each Campaign game is on equal footing as far as their starting options for their race are concerned. But ultimately I think what should be happening instead is you should be slowly adding things to Standard that do not cause for drastic swings in game balance or strategies (like what almost all emperor ships do), but rather fix the balance, and possibly also adding some utility and flavor for rarely used ships. And in the ideal scenario, introducing new content for playable races - say, 1 per year, again, available as a separate purchase. (Just not like Horwasps; I'm really sorry but that particular design is so bad for multiple reasons, I'd personally never play them, or in any game with them. But there are definitely ways to make it work.) Campaign may be used as a playground for these features, but I don't expect it to become the go-to mode of playing for most.

This may sound a bit weird coming from a player, but I do feel the game doesn't really give us enough reasons to pay you money. The $3 per month is fine, but we are in general older than average gamer audience, and have jobs, and usually have some change lying around to spare. Yet there is literally nothing to pay for! Personally I would pay for a custom ship icons pack, maybe some other simple vanity stuff like a star next to a name in forums. And it is equally important for the new players to see these status symbols of dedicated veterans, to desire them themselves, and it also shows them that there are people who played the game long enough. And more money can always be used to purchase more user traffic to bring more new players. I haven't really given a lot of thought on monetization routes, but I'm sure there is a lot of low hanging fruit that doesn't require a lot of coding to implement.

Thanks fore reading, I would be happy to reply and comment more if anyone is interested in continuing this conversation. (I really wanted to visit the PlanetsCon, but I couldn't to leave my daughter - who is younger than the game I am currently playing in - even for a week back here in Cyprus. Maybe next year, fingers crossed.)
354 days, 1 hours, 7 minutes ago
View commander koski's profile
commander koski
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I've had similar thoughts.
- I love complicated strategy games such as Paradox - when I joined I hated even the compulsory giant melee back then. If I would be put to play some academy style light version, first, I would not have kept playing.
- I think developing mobile is important for the fact that I just can't always do turns on computer. I need a back up option. But I can't relax playing a mobile game.
- I could pay more and have suggested before for example titles - "duke of Stupid planet" - actually, I have paid to a graphic designer for that handmade design avatar I have. (It's a Finnish Kzin kind of character!)
- This game is unique, and I'd sell it with it's uniqueness. I actually plan to do some recruiting for the game among some HC gamers by inviting personally some people to a self hosted game and mentoring them.
353 days, 23 hours, 32 minutes ago
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admiral rex star
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That was a fascinating read....

I have often thought myself, after playing in a Blitz tournament here at Nu. that the Blitz game, might garner it's own cult like following and be very much worth pursuing for the mobile game and/or the new player.

It is fast, fun, and has every bit of the drama, strategy, and excitement of the long version.

Did I mention the games take a week or two and not a year or two...to finish, and if the players are dedicated and willing, a game can finish in a half a day. say what you will, but this is a HUGE selling feature with Modern gamers. Time and No pay to win methodology.

One of the reasons for the death of EQ and EQII and power games of yesteryear that attracted huge memberships was the amount of time needed to be successful at the highest levels. Nobody has a life-time for a game....

And because of such, I have suggested in the past to remove the resource costs for campaign features. Open the content for all....

I have been at planets.Nu exactly one year this September and in that time, I Have been able to gather enough resource points to max out the Lizards, half make the Robots, and partially make the Borg. At this pace, I will be dead before I have access to full content, and this past year has been without failure. I have not lost a single game, so I am collecting nearly maximum resources for my efforts. This cannot continue and the process is then slowed even further. Under these current conditions, I will never experience the full content and in reality, few will.

Your post, while long, is a recommended read. Thank You for the time that it took to write it, you make some excellent suggestions.

353 days, 23 hours, 31 minutes ago
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iso--t
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Very very good opinions E!

Iso--T agrees!
353 days, 22 hours, 10 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Thank you guys for appreciating my effort in writing this, I'm very happy to hear I'm not alone in my opinions.

@Commander_Koski,

it would be really great if the game itself would be helping you to teach your friends. chances are much higher that those who are invited by players like you would become our regulars, should they stay, compared to just random traffic. I feel that would be a good investment of developers' time.

@Admiral_Rex_Star,

I don't really have an opinion on Blitz. I tried it, I didn't like it, but I can see how others may find it appealing. My issue with Blitz as game designer is that in order to properly balance races for small maps and 1v1 gameplay it is necessary to change game balance and even mechanics to the degree it is not really a Planets game anymore. And I would like there to be no further fragmentation of Planets than Standard and Campaign.

And re: decline of EQ and similar MMOs, it's more complicated than just time constraints. There are grind'y games around that keep showing strong active user counts despite their grindiness, like The Elder Scrolls Online and Guild Wars 2, and each new Sid Meier's Civilization sells more units than previous ones as well. While it's true that shorter span games are a much easier sell, it doesn't mean classic year-or-so-long Planets games don't have an audience - it's just that audience is simply somewhat harder to reach these days. So the choice is between spending some development effort in tailoring the game experience to a different version of the game that's easier to sell - and then hoping these may stick around for the core game as well, - or focusing on the core game, and going for the core audience instead.

The story of Magic: the Gathering (the card game) comes to mind. They used to have a similar conundrum - back when the game was released to a phenomenal success in 1993, its core audience turned out to be nerdy school and college students, rather than families and kids. The game's product team then went out of its way trying to invent ways to make the game more casual-friendly; they introduced Portal with a subset of Magic card rules, then they tried to make the rules for the core cardset simpler, then they decided to print simpler cards.. nothing worked. All the same time Pokemon (the card game) kept being in the first place among kids. Finally they gave up, said OK we get it, we're not getting any casual players in here, and started making the new cardsets for the hardcore audience. And guess what, Magic underwent sort of a revival, and they are still happily making money to this day. I kind of feel Planets.nu team is in a similar situation - we can't really change the type of folks this product caters to, so it would be best to focus on the ones that do like it.
353 days, 21 hours, 39 minutes ago
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theodore edward beyr
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
As a relative noobie, would it be a good idea to copy this thread to the magazine to foster more comment? The original post alone would certainly qualify as a guest editorial if not a full article.
353 days, 20 hours, 58 minutes ago
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maberi
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Hi, @Escogido, very good post. I agree 95% to your thoughts.

I'd like to comment what it's for me the big con of this great game: it's a big time sucker because its 25 years old features design. To save time, I use plugins that should be part of the core interface. "Planetary Management" is great and Pilot Nu has a great potential as a logistics manager. The current interface makes easier the use of friendly codes, but yet, a lot of time is spent in routine checks and adjustments, or just checking the documentation ("why my ship hasn't been cloned?").

This is a great game. It should be possible to make it easier and faster to play while keeping all its features.

Regarding mobile... I wouldn't play anything more complex than Clash Royale.
353 days, 20 hours, 55 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
As a quick comment.

To play the game you need to have a computer really.

As a PC user I find it really hard to walk into a shop and find a PC game. Any game shop now has no interest in selling PC games as gamers really only play console games.

So to buy games I have to use Steam or other platform.

But as Planets Nu is web based that is not an option.

So that route is not supplying us with players.

So one way would be to make Planets Nu playable on the various consoles.

But that's not going to be easy.

Also most players today are more interested in button bashing games.

So we have the problem of being an old format game. It's not like modern button bashing games. It really needs to be run on a PC not a console. We are not on Steam or other platforms to gain players. It's favoured by older people who played it 20 years ago.

Everythings against it for new players.

And if you could play the game on a console I think you would only get the people who played it on a PC anyway.

We have a dwindling player base and it does not play well on consoles or mobiles so will limit new players.

If you want more players you need to start from scratch.

If you want more money to develop a new game you need more players to play the current game.
353 days, 19 hours, 24 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Maberi,

You are absolutely right. I intentionally avoided the topic of automating the legacy parts of the game that should have been automated, because it doesn't seem like a priority for the Planets team, judging by relative lack of attention to the client, and the "want a UI feature, get/make a plugin" attitude. It's true that during each turn, we spend too much time doing chores like changing tax on planets on "autopilot", and if you're playing Borg, you also have to re-double-tick all planets that have too much population, because they would come off every turn - hardly a satisfying experience! Given limited developer capacity, it's a question of priorities though; I'd be willing to tolerate an odd chore every here and there if the development time is instead put into something exciting for everyone.

In a similar fashion, I also intentionally avoided the topic of "what should be done to the game design so that the new players would have an easier time learning it". There are multiple design elements in this game that should be implemented differently these days, without sacrificing a lot of strategic depth, for example getting rid of special friendly codes (gasp!) in favor of a second "ship task" selector, or of obscure things like left-side advantage (double gasp!) However I don't see how this opinion could possibly be popular among people who came here out of nostalgia, I can already hear the cries of "this piece of knowledge is part of what makes this game great" :) so not going to fight that war, at least not yet.

@Martinr,

You're right, most accessible channels aren't really a good fit for our marketing. Which is why I am saying the focus for the project should be on making it easier for us to bring new players to the game, and help us set them up. They got it under "MvM revamp" part in Big Beefer's presentation, so looking forward to it.

Also you know what would help bring in people here? A Youtube video of a game in progress where a veteran player explains the situation, his options, his decisions, then hits "turn ready", gets a new turn, and does a post-mortem of what went right and what did not, and where he was correct and where he did not. Any ex-Emperors want to give it a shot? :)
353 days, 18 hours, 40 minutes ago
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xi scorpii
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I agree there should be a second mission setting, instead of using friendly codes. Much more intuitive and easy to understand.

Also I think the left-right VCR situation should be converted from using friendly codes to a ship attitude or posture setting, ranging for example from defensive to neutral to aggressive. It would end up being a feature as opposed to a quirk that is hardly ever understood by beginners.

Think of all the possibilities. Players could have better strategic control of combat order. Perhaps there could even be a setting for each type of ship. For example a Rush on RGA could be set to be Aggressive Towards Torp Ships, while Defensive Towards Carriers.

Having the friendly code be used only for it's normal purpose would make the game easier to learn and less enigmatic.
353 days, 18 hours, 36 minutes ago
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the pale destroyer
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I've always saw this game much more akin to a giant, long, table top game than a regular comp game. Maybe target board game geek etc for advertising???
At a much simpler level, I'll play settlers of catan and the like on a tablet, but mobile get's too small for real play.

P.S. Crikey a feed thread, I want to join :p
Kill (or at least moderate) the feed and kill the trolls would help too!
353 days, 17 hours, 59 minutes ago
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mcnimble
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
See it as a good thing that NU develops only the web client from here on.

I wonder how far you could get with a smallish screen when reducing what is shown, not so much by shrinking it, but eliminating it.

Onr of our friendly Finnish players just started a youtube channel.

Perhaps videos from players doing their turns could teach us enough about workflows (and distractions) to improve the UI beyond changing sizes and placement of the various screen elements.

Nice thread.
353 days, 17 hours, 22 minutes ago
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talespin
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I thought they said at the Con that they were going to scrap mobile and focus on enhancing the web/PC version. Or did I mishear that?
353 days, 16 hours, 0 minutes ago
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general washington
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
This is a great thread. Thanks Escogido for kicking this off. I too am an old timer who STARTED to play it way back when but never really got into it. Now that I've started again on NU, I've found it very interesting. However, my last game could possibly be my LAST GAME simply because I can't seem to play this game with any reasonable amount of time. The catch 22 is that the better I do in the game, the more time it takes because I have more ships and more planets to manage and strategy in that management takes me ALOT of time. So, winning a game may have become a bucket list item (yeah me - one bucket item achieved!). Obviously the game still interests me - else I wouldn't be writing here. But unless something can be done to reduce the time effort in this game I may not be playing another game for years - if ever. (I say that, and watch my addiction to strategy bring me back sooner... RATS!) Anyway, point being - there are some very good comments/ideas brought up about direction for this game to go. A huge part of that needs to be embedded better planetary and ship management and possibly combined ship movement options and potentially programmed ship movement for routine functions that someone wants to keep repeating.
353 days, 15 hours, 25 minutes ago
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gornmeister
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
There's not a lot that can be done about the time required for a turn. In the beginning, your turn can take minutes, but a year or more into a game (I'm not kidding), you could be looking at 3-5 hours per turn, or even longer.

We used to joke that if a girl wants a guy who's not afraid of commitment, she should date a Planets player ;)

You can always come back and alter your turn before the host processes.
353 days, 15 hours, 4 minutes ago
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nessus
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Cleary not intended for the developers otherwise one would have sent to them directly. In my opinion the intention was to gather feedback.

This game was developed for BB systems, conversion to how it is now was a massive undertaking.
Not mobile friendly? Neither is nearly ALL 30 yr games.
This is a PC based game which really needs a PC to be playable, playing planets on a 5-6" screen sounds like a good way to get a headache.

Turn based strategy games take time to play especially when you get a turn every other day or so, I'm unsure how you get around this other than Blitz only.

To be fair, I didn't read the whole thing as it was for the developers, which … I'm not. :)

Cheers,
353 days, 13 hours, 19 minutes ago
View larry mccarthy's profile
larry mccarthy
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Thanks, Escogido for your insights. I first started playing back in the 90"s when I was Sysop of a small Robo BBS. I loved the sound of the modem handshake knowing that last RST file was being transmitted and it was time to play the best game ever. Thank you Tim Wisseman for your wonderful game. The Planets.NU team is doing a great job, however, quitters and droppers are ruining too many games and I would like to see something done about that. I would pay extra for the chance to join games and play with men and women I can trust not to quit after 10,20 or even 30 turns regardless of a losing position. What if fighting to the end and giving it you're all was the currency for leveling up, give that tenacious banshee a weapons upgrade and make him more competitive in the next game.
353 days, 12 hours, 16 minutes ago
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talespin
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I think E has some good points.

I'd like to see "Campaign" games renamed to something like "Testing Grounds", so that they aren't seen as potentially normal games. It should be obvious that they are just for testing potentially new games.

I'd also like to see all Campaign options be given to everyone.

I'd also like to see rewards for finishing out a game.

I don't and didn't care for mobile versions of the game...I don't even have a cellphone or tablet. I did however try it out and was quite disappointed.

I don't want to see the game dumbed down. I love that it's hard and hard to learn. I love that there are a million ways every game could go. I love that every race is not perfectly balanced - that would kill the game. Might as well play Starcraft or the old Star Trek Armada game.

I want Horwasp to burn in the fires a tantalus machine.

I'd like to see more mentoring and the Planets Magazine site become more active in teaching and developing the game.

I'd like to see the Calculator page/s by J. Heinrich to become integrated into this site.
353 days, 12 hours, 13 minutes ago
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obiwan-kedoki
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Perhaps tenacity should come with some reward, something subtle, yet significant, so you won't want to lose your tenacity 'bonus'.

For example, natives are happier by one point in every game when you start with 99% tenacity or more. Or perhaps the other way around. Tenacity 95% or lower all natives in all games are 1 point less happy. Or both.

This way players have some motivation to stick it out to the end, or they fight the next game with a distinct economic disadvantage.

For this to work, it probably requires some sort of reset, so perhaps tenacity needs to be calculated based only on the last 100 turns. This way players have some motivation to improve their tenacity.

BTW I was playing back in the early middle 90's with friends when the biggest issue was making sure the phone wasn't in use, so we could we send a turn back with X-MODEM. Pretty sure this was before the web was a thing.
353 days, 10 hours, 43 minutes ago
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aelfgar
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I really love this game. Seriously. Can we talk about the ship limit? OK, that right there is probably enough to start an argument. The only real counter-argument to getting rid of the ship limit (this from a very long thread from a year or so ago) is that it would make it take even longer to play the turns. But that is really only due to problems like not being able to create fleets that move as a unit and other design problems.

Yes, it is a hard game to play and a hard game to learn. These aren't necessarily bad things. I'd be willing to bet that most of us are here because we really love the complexity of the game and all of the different strategies that can be used.

Fixing some of the things that we have to have scripts for now would really make the game much better for new players. Generally, when you start playing a new game, looking for scripts and add-ons to make the game playable isn't the first thing you expect to be doing. And I mean it when I say, "...to make the game playable." I have something like 14 scripts running for Planets.nu. My eight-year-old signed up on here. I only found out when I got a copy of his turn eMail. He was trying to play his turn on his computer and wanted to know why he didn't get circles around his planets and ships that weren't marked as 'ready.' There is really very little chance that I'm going to install Tampermonkey on my eight-year-old's computer. That's just asking for trouble. Every new player to the game who didn't play in the BBS days is going to be shocked that they can't even come close to competing with the people who have dozens of scripts installed to play the game. Something should really be done to modernize the client.

BUT!

Whatever is done to modernize the client shouldn't be allowed to change the basic nature of the game. Yes, it's annoying to change the tax rates on all of your native planets for growth taxing them. But that is a piece of player knowledge that should be gained through experience, not something that should be automated into the client. The trouble is, someone is going to disagree with that. They'll say that 'everyone' knows about the growth tax method and it should just do it automatically. And it's a valid point. It didn't take me a terribly long time to realize that if I tax my natives to just the right point I can tax them nothing for a couple of turns and get almost the same money and far more growth. So why not automate it and just save me the hassle. Well... One answer to that is: Have you ever forgotten to set the tax rate to zero? Oops. This whole game is a lot of attention to details. Details that could probably be automated but which, for some reason, give me a lot of satisfaction from dealing with them.

So, some things, like the ready/not ready circles from the Idle Visualizer script ought to be built right into the client. I tried helping my son with his turn. Without those visual clues for what was ready and what wasn't it was unbearable. Even with just a few ships and planets. And I think this is one of the big places that the client could be improved. Visual clues for the map. There are some awesomely talented people who have made incredible scripts that make this game incalculably more playable. Maybe a lifetime subscription wouldn't be an unreasonable reward for those whose scripts get included in the client? I have a suspicion that some of them would pay anyway. (At this point I'm wondering how I was ever able to play this game back in the BBS days.)

I think that a lot of the reason new players don't stick around is that the client is still very difficult to deal with if you don't have the scripts and there are a number of things that aren't really very intuitive. The other thing would be that it really doesn't make any sense at all that you can only have 500 (or 999) ships in the game. Getting rid of friendly codes, which I find just as terrifying as anyone else, would go a long way to solving some of the problems that were brought up in the thread about getting rid of the (now) bizarre (to anyone who has never played the game before) and artificial limit on the number of ships in the game. PLS just doesn't cut it. Get rid of it. This shouldn't be a game where you're suckered in thinking that it's going to be a vast epic struggle between mighty empires only to later discover that it's really just a struggle to manipulate an artificial build queue because of an artificial limit on how many ships you can build.

Yes, all of the things being discussed in this thread are going to turn this into a totally different game. Tim is awesome. He designed an incredible game that a lot of us still love. But the current model isn't drawing in new players, is it? It's not keeping people coming back. It has to change. Even Nethack has a tileset, you know.

As for markets I can name one: Homeschoolers. I have my teenagers playing in hopes of getting them to start to learn to think about long-term goals and planning. These are things homeschoolers think about. Seriously. Get together with producers of homeschool curricula and talk to them about the benefits of strategic planning and gamification of education. If this game can teach anything it is certainly how to plan for the long term. Educating your own children is no easy task. Anything that makes it easier is going to make parents very happy. Especially something that teaches the skills that this game can teach. (Until I read this thread I wasn't really thinking a lot about who would be a good candidate for a target audience for Planets.nu. Now I'm thinking about posting in some homeschooling groups to see what happens.)
353 days, 10 hours, 2 minutes ago
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nessus
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Let's see if I got this right, you guys want..

Faster turns
Shorter games
Automation
No ship limits
No Friendly codes
Completely playable on mobile devices
Assume different graphics
But... you don't want to change the overall intercity of the game?!!

Jesus!!

353 days, 9 hours, 39 minutes ago
View commander koski's profile
commander koski
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Nessus

I don't think you got anything right there.

I think the key messages in this thread are: the core game is fine, we love it. Please don't make anything that ruins that.

And I think when we are talking about new players we shouldn't be thinking about young people. I'd say the people most interested and who have money to do what they want are in age groups from 30-50, heck, why not spread it all the way up to 70? At least in Finland people around 40 years old play a lot computer games and statistically the older age groups are much bigger than younger generations...

https://www.populationpyramid.net/finland/2017/

So I wouldn't force feed Planets to younger generations - nostalgia sells too, you know...

353 days, 9 hours, 38 minutes ago
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gornmeister
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Yeah, and if it could be done by 5pm Friday, that'd be great :P
353 days, 8 hours, 16 minutes ago
View psydev's profile
psydev
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
My two cents, as someone who has played a lot of mobile Planets:

Mobile planets is almost good enough to replace the full game for me. I was traveling for 3 months and rarely had access to a computer, and so I played most of my turns on mobile. It was fine. Aside from a few issues that need fixing, playing the game fully on mobile is OK, once you get used to it. Basically, as long as you are not playing a super-competitive game where you need to optimize every little thing, it's adequate. (I play a lot of Blitz games on mobile, FWIW).
BUT...
The problem is, mobile NU is really not a great platform to *learn* Planets on. I already know the game, so adapting to playing it on the phone was not hard. But if I had to learn the game on the phone ... that would be an entirely different experience. I don't think you can get someone to love Planets by introducing them to the mobile version. (Unless they are playing Planets Academy first, and then go to the Nu website afterwards).

For anyone wondering about the mobile version: it takes some time to learn the mobile version, but soon enough you get proficient at it and can use it fast. There are some issues that need fixing (mine sweep updates, foreign transfer/jettison function...) but overall it is satisfactory. Perhaps the most noticeable drawback is that you can't use plugins...
353 days, 7 hours, 52 minutes ago
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mursu
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
It's worth noting that some of features mentioned here (friendly codes, ship limit, left-side advantage etc.) actually do add depth to the game. So just removing those wouldn't be a positive development to many. Those are a part of the strategic and tactical experience that makes this game interesting.

In my mind the development should focus heavily in making the UI as user friendly as possible without changing the actual game. Worth noting is that one small step towards the right direction was just made by making ships automatically target warp wells to save fuel. There's very much to do in this sector.

I'm not a programmer so my terms might go wrong in here, but last weekend at Planetscon there was some discussion how to get the several willing volunteers to participate in making the UI better. There should be a possibility of some kind of open system to actually code enhancements and offer those to the developing team. The developing team then would have full right to accept those and implement to the game or modify (and also reject) if they want. This would save time from the developers, but would allow more features implemented fairly fast. Someone who was there can likely put this idea into more understandable format.

But anyway I like the main point in the opening post. The best is to understand that the game is not for everyone. It takes dedication to play and learn the game and it should be so. But there's room for improvement.
353 days, 7 hours, 48 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@General_Washington,

Yes, having to do too many things that are NOT FUN and should be automated is indeed a big part of the problem. Out of the 100+ planets a player with a shot at winning owns, they have to make meaningful economy decisions on maybe 5-10, mostly on the frontier + an odd previously uninhabited planet in the corner. The rest should be on auto-pilot. (It gets worse in Classic, where you also have to make sure planets that are due to build soon have resources and starbase levels.. ugh. It's Standard all the way for me now, new queue is strictly superior in this regard.) Same for ships, there should be ways to designate a resource storage planet, and automate freighters to carry things there. Also getting warp reset to 0 every time a ship runs out of fuel, and not having it automatically set back adds too many annoying meaningless clicks. BUT! These are all what we call "nice problems to have", that is, it increases quality of life for people who are already hooked, and doesn't help that much with new players. So much as I would like to see improvements there, it is not in the first priority column to me. Also as I said earlier, there are ways to change game design proper to make the game more player-friendly, but I don't see a point in putting effort in there, unless there is a clear message from the developer team that they are interested in considering that.

@Larry_McCarthy,

I'm totally with you! There are too many games decided by whose neighbor drops first, and especially so on new levels. And I can't even get to many officer games because I'm trying out different races. I'd also be very much interested in a No Drop Club, either coded in or some informal, possibly paying to be in one. Tenacity isn't doing nearly enough, I agree with what has been that said in that other thread too.

@Aelfgar,

You have multiple great points, except one :) As a game designer, I have to say - please don't touch the ship limit. Sorry. It's the cornerstone of the Jenga tower of game balance here. Too many things depend on it, including how the smaller ship races rush the limit and how in a full no-quitters no-newbies game races are roughly equal in strength (except the Feds and the Evil Empire IMO). I understand pretty well why you are annoyed by its artificial nature, but it's truly one of those things where you go against the fiction in the game to make for a great design. (Chances are Tim introduced it by necessity, but it turned out to be a serendipitous design decision.)
353 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes ago
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mcnimble
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@murssu as long as planets.nu is commercial, I have to be commercial. There is no chance NU can afford to buy my plugins [to incorporate in the client]. I spent way too many hours on them.
353 days, 5 hours, 50 minutes ago
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fabyec thorneas
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I do recommend better security settings in any way. This has urgency. Using HTTPS to start with...
353 days, 5 hours, 42 minutes ago
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mcnimble
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Adding "gained 360 KT bonus mass because we are fighting a carrier" to the VCR viewer is not that hard.

You have to think from the point of view of a beginner, which is incredibly hard when you are an experienced player and/or a NU admin that knows all the details by heart.

---

new-Academy-style is fine to learn several elements (esp the difference between the races) without all the logistical details. You have to give potential players a taste.

Blitzes are fine to learn how one race stacks against another.

Eventually all the minutiae and diplomacy make the game, and you have to go there.

The opportunity to watch historical games is awesome, but I still find it hard to see what went on.
353 days, 1 hours, 0 minutes ago
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aelfgar
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Escogido,

Yes, I understand what you mean about the ship limit but I suspect that it drives away a lot of new players when it hits. I don't really have the time to go look at all of the MvM games to know for certain but I would bet that new players leave like the proverbial rats from a sinking ship when the ship limit hits and they suddenly find that they can't build ships for what amounts to (as far as they can tell) no good reason at all. There has to be a way to make it work.

"Also getting warp reset to 0 every time a ship runs out of fuel..."
I think this falls under the category of, "minutiae," that Mcnimble expressed so much more succinctly than I was able to. It's one of those things that, when you find you forgot to set it, you groan and facepalm over, but you don't blame the game for it, you blame your own lack of attention to detail.

@Mcnimble,

"Eventually all the minutiae and diplomacy make the game..."
Thank you. You said in one short sentence what it took me a paragraph to express.

I agree with what you said about the historical games, as well, but I cannot imagine any real solution to it.

I can't even begin to imagine how much time you have put into the plugins you wrote. I imagine that even a lifetime subscription for any and all .NU paid content wouldn't be a lot of incentive for you. In any case it's not really anyone's business but yours and the owners of the site. My thoughts on the matter are that it might be something worth considering, though I don't expect no one else has ever thought of it.

@Fabyec Thorneas,

There must be some reason for not using https, but I can't imagine what it is.

---

As for all the complaints about dropping players I don't know, but is there an eMail sent to a player who is about to be dropped for missed turns? Maybe a popup message when someone clicks 'resign' asking them in polite terms to please reconsider for the enjoyment of everyone? Or, if those kinds of messages are not sufficient, a warning that some kind of negative consequences will follow for those who drop too much or resign too often.
Another thing that might be implemented would be some check to see if a player has just clicked 'play' and then clicked 'end turn' without actually doing anything. (I'll tell that I have accidentally clicked 'end turn' when I meant to click 'exit' at least once that I can remember because I had been looking at the Scoreboard. And there is another thing that really ought to be fixed: Consistency within the UI.)
353 days, 0 hours, 35 minutes ago
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poweron
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
have not read all before, so sorry if it has been said before but i think the main problem with new players is in a few things (from my experience):

1. complexity of and amount needed for the game;

assuming new players do their turns, they will hit a wall around turn 15 or so. From then on it not only is a buildup game with lots of planets and ships, but also diplomacy kicks in read hard AND your past (mistakes) takes shape. So you have all of a sudden a very complex time consuming game on your hands, one you probably dont understand quite well also. Because when you start this game it looks easy and not very time consuming, lots of newbies start with lots of games and so they face the above not once but multiple times all around the same time.

2. Entry to the game is very bad. You get dumped into the game without explanation or a proper entry/guide. (dont kow if its still so, but havent heard its been changed). This a real letdown, and even when you played it in the past, it is a proper letdown. I would recommend a proper guide for your first steps. Explaining where to find things on a page, the Essentials of playing vgap: movement, planet buildup, how to build, different types of ships, race differences and so on. Like people did on the recent com but for starting players. "The guide them by the hand."

3. accept that the game is not for the thrill seekers and you will never get those people to get into the game. You need, as said before by others, those who like strategy games and focus on those people.





353 days, 0 hours, 35 minutes ago
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celestial
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Well, this thread proved to be an interesting read.

I think extra personalization options (like custom ship sets) are a great idea. Even offering the simple option to name your Commander (inside a game) to suit your chosen Race could help generate a more personalized feel. -For a more immersive experience, options for different soundsets/music might be incorporated. eg: Default, Classical, electro ambient, ambient starship noises or even (slightly garbled) radio chatter.

Given that the idea is to grow the playerbase, then surely a bigger variety of game experiences is something to consider.

Imho, developing interesting game variants for people who would otherwise move on, shouldn't put the 'Classic' game under threat.


Some rough examples:

3D planets.-(I can't let it go; it's beautiful:)

Planets -Designer Version: , Custom ship-sets. Scenario creation kit etc.

Planets Coalition: A variant designed specifically for team play. Perhaps, incorporating an inbuilt ladder and clan system. (Maybe even inviting the 'Circus Max' survivors to field a team).

Planets -Definitive Version: For those visitors who are looking for the original VGAP3 experience, an even more 'Classic' feeling game could be fleshed out, with optional emulation of the original UI and access to a few more traditional Hconfig options (minefield decay rates etc).

Planets -Radical Version: If things like the ship limit (or the combat system) ARE driving prospects away, then why on earth would you not look into a possible game variant that addresses these 'issues'. Perhaps, a Tech Tree system could flesh this one out, even further. -One other thing jumps to mind, is the addition of 'Bridge Crews' (Not exactly a new concept, I know). This could allow ALL Emperors (another) opportunity for in-game immortality; as a potential bonus character (eg: to put in your flagship). Start well in a game, and soon you may be offered the services of a Tiny, HISS boosting, Emork, or, perhaps a minute Smn, who can tune your shields to cope with Radiation. Maybe a pocket sized Spacesquad will show up, who can sneak your ship through webs etc. Besides an amusing addition, it could provide one more incentive to climb that ladder.


352 days, 22 hours, 44 minutes ago
View psydev's profile
psydev
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Friendly codes need to be abolished. At least the ones that do "tasks": they can all be replaced by better UI.

They should be kept for their original intent -- being an actual friendly code. But instead they are used for a million different things:
- Battle order
- MKT, LFM
- Mine laying (md1, etc.)
- Mine Scooping
- Giving away ships (gsX)
- TRG/POP
- HYP

^ All of the above are needlessly complex. There's simply no reason a new player should need to know any of this. They also shouldn't deal with the arbitrary complexity of wondering how to set battle order when they also want to make some torpedoes (MKT) in the same turn... =/

Friendly codes are not needed to do any of these things. UI can handle them perfectly well. (For example, when laying mines you can select the number you want to lay with a mouse click. Friendly codes don't need to be involved.)

The only reason we use friendly codes in the first place is for purely technical reasons: in the '90s, it was hard to deliver client and host updates to players. There would be problems if client and host were not compatible versions. An easy work-around for this was to have lots of ship tasks handled by friendly codes: if the host didn't support the new FC, then no problem. Friendly codes then became the standard way that ship functionality was increased. But in 2018, this is totally unnecessary and archaic. It should be done away with. (While maintaining backwards-compatibility, of course).

(For now, I would not propose any changes to planetary FCs).
352 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes ago
View rudel's profile
rudel
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Friendly Codes are a cornerstone of countless strategies and tactics in planets. They even control who wins the battle (starting side). You can't just delete a major part of the game because it's too complex. As discussed several times, if you compare planets to a sucessful game like Hearts of Iron or EU4, it's still pretty simple. We don't need a streamlined experience.
352 days, 21 hours, 56 minutes ago
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caddrel
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
The objective would be to keep & even increase the number of actions, tactics, and strategies available to players (the complexity) while removing the inaccessible and obtuse elements of the game.

i.e. A player should still have all the actions, tactics, and strategies that a game mechanic like "friendly codes" currently allows.

But those actions shouldn't be hidden behind a bizarre interface that requires inputting a three letter code, and where potential actions are spread across multiple different windows within the UI.
352 days, 21 hours, 47 minutes ago
View psydev's profile
psydev
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
> "You can't just delete a major part of the game because it's too complex."

Not "deleted", just rendered redundant. I.e. new players should not have to know them. I suggested maintaining backwards compatibility, so FCs do not have to be gotten rid of. Anything they do should be doable through the UI (e.g. laying minefields with 'md1', or making torpedoes 'mkt'). They should just be rendered inessential (at least in Standard).

> "They even control who wins the battle (starting side)."

I am NOT proposing removing battle order or left-side/right-side advantage.

I acknowledge that battle order is different from all the other ship "tasks" that I mentioned.
But FWIW, battle order could be determined separately from FC. The only thing you would lose in doing this is that ships that have FC set to 001 currently do not fight each other. (Personally, I think this is silly. I know some might disagree...).

If Friendly Codes are to be maintained in determining battle order, then they should not be required for other tasks. (I.e. "should I make torpedoes this turn with MKT, or should I set my FC to 001 so it fights first?" is a stupid question no one should have to answer).

> "Friendly Codes are a cornerstone of countless strategies and tactics in planets."

"Cornerstone" is an exaggeration. FCs do not define the game's core strategy.
352 days, 20 hours, 51 minutes ago
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talespin
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Psydev Wouldn't that look like a hundred "buttons" on each ship/planet/base page?
352 days, 20 hours, 51 minutes ago
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talespin
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Sometimes I miss navigating with just the keyboard :D
352 days, 19 hours, 34 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
There are some things that can be done purely on UI level to reduce complexity of the friendly code mechanic. For example, change the whole "friendly code: abc" into a label "Special order: ", a dropdown with items listed below, and a fc entry box. Items for the dropdown could read:

Priority fight (numeric code)
Make torpedoes from cargo (code mkt)
Scoop minefield back into torpedoes (code msc)
etc.
None (non-numeric code)

Upon making a selection, the code would be randomized if first or last item is used, or set to a specific value otherwise. In either case, the text box stays editable, and if the player manually enters a special value, the selector changes to indicate that. Also there would need to be some special extra UI for "give this ship away to [race]" and "clone this ship".

This doesn't change any functionality, and is easier to understand than the bizarre "friendly code" which doesn't even mean anything to a new player, and an equally confusing "Friendly >" popup.
352 days, 18 hours, 10 minutes ago
View tom n's profile
tom n
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Great thread!

Thanks Escogido! Agree with many points here, but I'd be against changing the game to shorten the length.

There are options for players who don't have the time to invest, like "Two turns a week", blitz, custom games with less planets/ships, etc.

There are also add-ons and tips to help shorten time spent, and if you're spending more than 15-20 minutes on planets/bases then IMO I think you're not utilizing them.

352 days, 15 hours, 1 minutes ago
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turssi
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Great 1st post. Going to read the rest later, but here's my 2 cents:

I like it that the site has different games:
-classic
-campaign
-12 races
-blitz
-30 player games
-mobile and such
-team games etc...

Lets the players pick their favorites and brings more and different people to the site. I just play the 11 player campaign, because that's my favorite and I'm short on time, but I'm happy to see other 'sub-games' have their crowd and the site keeps (hopefully) growing.

The officer bit is real difficult and it's frustrating that you only gain points by winning, but then again I got hooked and I'm looking forward to getting that Super Star Cruiser Mk2 :P
352 days, 14 hours, 44 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
There is no point trying to make VGAP3 into something else... so the changes you desire have to have a limit.

FC's are where I draw the line... take those away and then you might as well just play a new modern 4X game.

Joshua will maintain Classic-mode... so that is all that really matters to those resisting change.
__

The popularity of games often is due to 'balance'... this is championed by RTS games since their popularity depends on it usually. While Warcraft 1-2 were able to get away with just mirroring the Races to achieve balance... that type of laziness results in a title failing to make money nowadays. A specific example is the best RTS software/client/tools ever made... but just two Races, mirrors of one another... and I can't even recall its NAME.

So VGAP3 has something special in its balanced Races... so modifying the game from there... or even spawning a new game from it... isn't a horrible idea.

However... it really doesn't take much effort to just make a new game from scratch... so if your list of changes starts getting up there... start from scratch.
_ _ _

I started to develop a VGAP3-like game where you design your Race... but after discovering Planets.Nu and playing again... I changed my mind and my company focused elsewhere.

It's not perfect, but Planets.Nu is damn close... just need to ditch that Ship Limit and have AI play dropped positions and I'm happy.
352 days, 14 hours, 17 minutes ago
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aelfgar
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I think one of the best things to come out of this whole discussion is the idea of clans. There could be some kind of small fee to join a clan and fight for the honor of your clan. That kind of competition often generates a lot of enthusiasm. It might even help prevent people from dropping out of games.
352 days, 14 hours, 8 minutes ago
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xi scorpii
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I'm not sure any of us want to change Planets into something else, but just fix the weird quirks that came about by using the friendly code as a catch-all way to add more options.

As pointed out HYP should be a secondary mission setting, not a friendly code, as well as MKT and others. They really have nothing to do with the actual purpose of a friendly code. We've gotten used to it to the point that it isn't really thought about much, but to a new player it makes no sense. Same as with the various queues. They're artificial and non-intuitive. Hopefully some final form of PLS solves that.

I can see the friendly code still being used as the final tweak for setting combat order though. But it could be something simple like all ships that are set to have an "Aggressive" posture will fight in order of friendly codes, then all ships set with a "Neutral" posture will fight in order of friendly codes, then all ships with a "Defensive" posture.

How many times have new players asked why their support ship with no Kill or PE set ended up fighting before their warship with PE set, only to be told their high number friendly code had the support ship as more aggressive.

The learning curve is steep enough with learning the necessary essentials to have to also learn all the weird illogical stuff. Planets would be a better game for everyone, even the diehard classic players, if all these odd situations were handled with straightforward and logical controls.
352 days, 13 hours, 46 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Xi+Scorpii: I'll bite... but first lets clarify the topic.

1. There is removing the FC INTERFACE in favour of buttons/toggles/etc ... that can be done with a script and not change NuHost code at all.

2. Then there is modernizing NuHost into buttons/toggles/etc abandoning the restrictions FCs had.
_ _ _

So I doubt we are talking about topic 1, if we are, I agree... but not a high priority.
_ _ _

So topic 2;

Now I like the extended Alchemy and Beam Down FCs... but I feel for example minelaying going from "md1-0, 1/4, 1/2, all" to "0-x" meaning I can lay or resize Webs far too precisely to not boost Crystals immensely. Right now I need a 2nd ship with matching Torp Tubes (and room), or a Starbase to do this.
_ _ _

I assume some care about trying to guess people's FCs... but I consider that mainly a strategy you use on new players and that is it.
352 days, 13 hours, 34 minutes ago
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aelfgar
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Glyn, "...that can be done with a script..."

But it shouldn't _need_ a separate script. It should be part of the client. The client should include the functionality to do those things (and many others) that are currently done with scripts. New players should be able to play the game without having to hunt for 15 different scripts.

As for topic two... I'm not in a position to comment much on that. But I will say that if it provides too much control for the Crystals then don't change how mines can be dropped. Take the quantity control out of the FC but keep the amounts that can be dropped the same. That wouldn't be too horribly difficult, I think. Play testing would be the way to find out if you have a valid concern, of course.
352 days, 13 hours, 10 minutes ago
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xi scorpii
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Glyn:

Yeah I agree with what you and @Aelfgar are saying. Don't change the functionality too much, just separate secondary missions and such from friendly codes. The way it is now, for example, if you negotiate to send a few ships through a neighbors minefield and you don't want to use up a Safe Passage agreement to do it, and you also want some of your ships to make torpedoes along the way, you can't do it easily. Those two things are completely unrelated and should be controlled separately. Or if you want that torpedo ship to fight first in the event of combat, but it's making torpedoes as well, it becomes problematic.

It'd be kind of like you're driving and want to signal for a left hand turn, but also have to turn on your windshield wipers for it to work. It doesn't make sense, and I imagine it frustrates many new players.

352 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
"Aelfgar: It should be part of the client."

@Aelfgar: I'll take "Things Glyn thinks but doesn't say" for 500 Alex.

Long ago scripts were rolled into the NuClient... which is why I state there was an old NuClient... although there were many dramatic changes to fully warrant differentiating the two (which Joshua did, also most old NuClient scripts no longer worked with the new NuClient even the ones not rolled into the new NuClient).

So I feel ya... I'm optimistic... probably shouldn't be... but I'm non-Premium so who am I to complain.
352 days, 11 hours, 33 minutes ago
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aelfgar
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Glyn,

I'm non-premium, too. But it seems to me that if this site is to get any new players that aren't just recycled VGAP players it's going to have to get more user-friendly. I think Escogido gave some excellent advice. I sincerely hope it gets heard.

For all of us old farts who played VGAP on BBSs this is wonderful. It's much easier to deal with in so many ways. But if you don't know what it used to be like there are a lot of confusing rules and ways of doing things. If I had never heard of VGAP I'm not sure I would have kept playing. But I had already played the harder version and had a good idea what to expect. None of us can go back and unremember how things used to be and how happy we were to play the game as it was.

I guess, the long and the short of it is that I think this is one of the finest games out there. There are thousands of other games that I could play for nothing with all the features available and I'd rather play this one unregistered than any of the others. I'd like to see it be a success. And that's going to take new players.

I think Xi Scorpii has a great argument for why the activities like 'mkt' and 'bdm' should be separated from the friendly codes. He's right, it doesn't make any sense (to anyone who didn't play VGAP) and probably drives players away. I don't know how much that would change the relative strengths and weaknesses of the races and I'm not sure I would really want it changed but I think it must change.
352 days, 9 hours, 51 minutes ago
View smn's profile
smn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Great thread!

I'll contribute later more verbosely, but for now I can share the lessons from a game I organized at the office some time ago.

We had 11 players total (10 + me). Most of the folks had played in the 90's, but there were also a couple of "new generation" competitive players involved. 2 of the players joined public games too, one of them played in several games but is currently inactive.

I discussed a lot with people on what works and what not. While there were a lot of specific things, widely they could be categorized under three main categories:

1) Too much work. This was central

2) Bad UI/UX. Notable was that 0% was calling for better graphics. But this was critizism about how easy it was to use the UI for the things you wanted to do

3) Illogical and / or annoying game design issues

To paraphrase one: If I made some mistakes in the early game, there is no way to fix the situation and come back. I don't like quitting but you're just stuck for months in the game with very little you can do.
352 days, 9 hours, 33 minutes ago
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gornmeister
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply

I agree with several comments in that adding a “secondary mission” function for non-combat/diplomatic activities like make torpedoes, transfer fighters/torpedoes, and hyperjump is a good idea.

But *only* for those few items. For the rest of it, leave it alone.

Friendly codes are currently a single interface object that can be used for a wide variety of purposes. But removing ALL those extra functions in favour of UI replacements is like buying a 100 piece spanner set when you already have an adjustable wrench. You want streamlined? It’s staring you in the face.

So the occasional inflexibility of friendly codes make it a bit hard sometimes. Tough luck. If the game had no challenge, we wouldn’t play.
352 days, 9 hours, 26 minutes ago
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gornmeister
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Smn

> "To paraphrase one: If I made some mistakes in the early game, there is no way to fix the situation and come back. I don't like quitting but you're just stuck for months in the game with very little you can do."


Welcome to life.

Actually, this is one of the things I love about the game. You HAVE to pay attention EVERY turn, or you can screw yourself up for months.
352 days, 9 hours, 1 minutes ago
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celestial
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Just imagine, if THESE were the sample quotes on the Nu. Front Page.



"If I made some mistakes in the early game, there is no way to fix the situation and come back. I don't like quitting but you're just stuck for months in the game with very little you can do."

"You HAVE to pay attention EVERY turn, or you can screw yourself up for months."

"It's a big time sucker because its 25 years old features design."

"Everythings against it for new players."

"quitters and droppers are ruining too many games"

"Entry to the game is very bad. You get dumped into the game without explanation or a proper entry/guide. This a real letdown, and even when you played it in the past, it is a proper letdown."




Mmm... Enticing.
352 days, 9 hours, 1 minutes ago
View smn's profile
smn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Gornmeister, if you view it from the point of user retention and getting new players into the game, it is just horrible design. I mean, the message towards a new player is that "you have to just bite the bullet and work for a few months, but trust us it will at some point in the future be good". It is a message that doesn't exactly sell, it is a real problem verified by real user feedback from a prime target group.

Now what can be done to it? I didn't even go there, but there are several things that can be done and scoped specifically for beginner games. The broad categories would be reducing the length of games and enabling comebacks.
352 days, 8 hours, 43 minutes ago
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smn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
About the current MvM start for new players: The service is good but the user experience is currently implemented in an almost offensive way. Being dumped into a tutorial game without explanations or anything mainly serves to annoy newcomers.

Something like this would manage the user expectations pretty well and could help:
*After registration, a selection menu asks: You are all set up, how would you like to proceed?*

[I'd like to try things out on my own, against the AI] -> single player levels
[I'd like to join a guided tutorial game with fellow human players] -> MvM dump
[I'd like to see how a well-developed game looks like] -> Send to page where user may view turns from some selected, finished game, along with some instructions on what to do. The game could be a vetted classic one to entice the players properly. Preferably one with some after action reports written about it. We all love stories and they sell.
[I'm a veteran, let me find my way on my own] -> take the player to feed front page (or new games page)
352 days, 7 hours, 31 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Gornmeister,

>Welcome to life.

Sorry - this is one of the worst arguments for a game design decision. The game is supposed to be fun, and if that implies breaking the fiction, who cares! Players will forgive you.

But the question here is not even whether the game is more or less fun with a "tiniest mistakes may cost you the game" approach; after all, that is a matter of personal preferences. The real question here is whether there are enough people who'd have fun playing that kind of game, given realities of 2018 compared to 1992, to sustain the project. I believe the answer is no, gaming tastes have changed, and there aren't simply enough 90s nostalgia players around, and we have to adapt to the changing times, if we want this great game to have a future.
352 days, 6 hours, 21 minutes ago
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mcnimble
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
The one FC I really dislike is 'cln'.

The ship doesnt't do anything, the starbase does! The whole UI for cloning therefore belongs in the starbase screen. (Base either builds regularly, or clones. Ship just goes off to do its own thing.)

No more cloning and building, or double cloning in exceptional cases.

And I suppose here is the reason for large parts in difference in opinion i this thread: I consider a double clone in classic to be a BUG. Others, I'm sure, consider it a FEATURE.

New players, now, don't come with either of those opinions, they just run into the behaviour - which they probably don't like because it is unexpected, and then classify as BUG.

If you want new players to treat things as FEATUREs, you must explain what is happening before they run into it. The UI can help, but only to some extent. Mentoring can help, but only to some extent. Documentation can help, but only to some extent.
352 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes ago
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mcnimble
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Being dumped in an MvM on joining the site is going to end / has ended, as per state of the NU 2018
352 days, 5 hours, 40 minutes ago
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gornmeister
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Mcnimble

In the absence of being dumped in MvM games, how will a new player acquire enough turns to join an open game? Or will the turn requirement be scrapped?
352 days, 4 hours, 23 minutes ago
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dark lord
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
With respect to the new Players experience and Planets in general, we have to remember that this is a Knock-Out game at its heart. In a normal knock-out competition, i.e soccer, you loose and you are out, you pack up your bags and go home. The problem with this game is that the Knock-Out is not sudden, it can have Players limping along for months. As you start to loose it becomes increasingly difficult to recover as the intent of you opponents is to kill you off. Now they may wish to kill you off aggressively(fast), or kill you off slowly by staving you because they know they have the upper hand and wish to divert their resources elsewhere. But either way can result in a lingering death where you just want to drop and start another game.

Hardened players understand the way the game works, but I agree that new players may feel frustrated, especially as they may not want to Drop in fear of appearing uncommitted to the Planets community.

This game is exceptionally tough to play, its why I play it, but I am stubborn. We ask a lot of a new player, may be ask too much. We ask them all at the same time to;

Master the economics
Master expansion
Master supply routes
Master diplomacy
Master trading
Master combat
Master faints and deception
Master an understanding of other Race abilities and common strategies
Master reading the map and relationship of planet groups.
Understand Plugin’s and how to use them.

Yes, there are single player games that help and these are good, but really getting a new player to try to tackle all of the above in a multiplayer game, even when all the other players are new players, is really really tough. Ask an experienced Player and their answer will be that they are still learning after years of play, hence why there are so many top players at Planets Con discussing tactics.

So, how can we keep the game as it is but make it more frictionless for new players. To make it clear, I am not an advocate of making changes for the mass market to attract new players. The game as it is has certain qualities that make it appeal to a certain type of person. There are enough of these people out there, we just need to find them and more importantly hold onto them when they do start playing.

So how would I look to make it easier to for beginners to learn how to play the game;

1. Jump Starts/Handy Cap system

Up to a certain Player level we could make it easier by Jump Stating the games with additional owned Planets and Starbases. So the start positions for the entry level ranks could be for example;

Midshipman 10 Planets - 5 SB’s - 3 LDSF’s
Ensign 5 Planets - 2 SB’s - 2 LDSF’s
Sub-Lutenent 3 Planets - 1 SB - 2 MDSF’s

At this level of introductory gameplay the game does not have to be finitely balanced, it helps, but the objective is to get Players up and running fast and enjoying the experience.

NOTE : This is only for new Players that are JUST STARTING. If you have achieved a Rank in any Race above Sub-Lutenent then the Handy Cap system would not be applied.

2. Limited Race Games.

One of the biggest challenges is understanding what the capabilities and threats are of the other races. Yes its all written down, but who remembers all that when they first start playing.

Players need to develop skills when dealing with things like Cloakers, or Crystal Mines and every other aspect of a Race special abilities. At the moment they get thrown in at the deep end to deal with everything at the same time.

So, if you are just starting as a new Player then it may be easier for all the Races in the game to be the same, or at least limited. If everyone starts off with the Fed’s, as an example, then everyone will learn how to Play and Fight the Fed ships and abilities.

So the progress from Midshipman to Ensign could be dependent on Playing in three different type Race Games, A Carrier Race, a Cloaking Race and another. This would give a good grounding in the fundamentals of the game and more importantly, be manageable for a new Player.

3. Multiplayer Map Size for beginners

Reducing the Map size would increase the game speed and make those beginner games faster. This would be combined with reducing the number of players required so beginner games can start faster. So a game may have 4 or 5 Players and 150 planets.

4. Multiplayer Win Conditions

Capturing 250 or 200 Planets can drag on, especially if the Beginners are playing defensive games rather than aggressive. So different Win Conditions may help and importantly help turn the games around quicker to get beginners playing more games and learning more. So we could have;

- Capture the Flag - A Special SB in the Centre of the Map
- Capture the Flags - Several Special SB’s located around the Map.
- Control Map Quadrant or Number of Quadrants.

Such win conditions would help the Players develop tactics as their objective pre defined and focused.



My thoughts are just to help improve the early stage introduction to Planets for the new Player by making the initial multiplayer games simpler, faster and focused. Lets leave the rest of the game as it is, its great.


352 days, 3 hours, 59 minutes ago
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admiral rex star
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I learned the basics back in 90's by playing solo games. It didn't matter that the AI sucked, it was great experience anyhow, learning to move ships, and build empires. I couldn't even tell you how many solo games I played, but it was in the hundreds...

Each time the empire would start looking better and better and I got really good at collecting and building the first 50 turns...

Eventually the turns would get so big, I would start over and try a different way to do things.

I can remember discovering how useful BOV planets were... and I started cheating, starting games over and over and over until I got that Bov. Unity.

In any event, solo learning, like the levels offer, should be pushed on new players. When they have the basics down, then you move them on. They will have a better experience when they hit the real game.
352 days, 3 hours, 52 minutes ago
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talespin
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Instead of developing the Level Editor, CONTINUE to open up the Design Game options. I'd like to see less restriction when designing games! I say "restrictions", because the original game allowed you to change a whole lot of things that Nu restricts. Why not open that up, add more options, and adapt the point system to compensate?

Examples:

- no 80 turn requirement in a public game
- the ability to choose homeworld locations
- more map formations (i.e. rings, arms)
- other win conditions (i.e. capture the flag, defeat this many enemy ships, capture a smaller amount of ships, etc)
- ways to personally invite players from the Nu website (i.e. player list with sorting funcations)
- more options to add descriptions to the games
- ability to change the race names or give them a title

***

As was said above, I think the reward system should give us new "skins" for planets, ships, starbases, and in-game portraits.

One thing I thought might be cool would be to "level up" an actual officer for each race. When I start a new race, I'd create an officer (i.e. name, choose special non-game related stats, text options, signatures, portraits, capital ships, favourite race, etc.). When other players face me, they would see these options in the game. This might be quite labour intensive though.

***

Also, someone mentioned improving the usefulness of the some less useful ships. I like that idea. They wouldn't have to become battle monsters, but they should have some sort of special feature that makes them interesting.
352 days, 2 hours, 52 minutes ago
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ghostrider
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I love the game just about any way ya want to play an have done so for many yrs. Im really a computer dummy, sorta left behind by tech in real life , which I might add is normal to all of us.
If I were to dream of an improvement which might be usable an enjoyable to all , an easy to implement if such is possible
AS IS
1. the program already is set an tracks , an keeps up with a very valuable tool
2. we have no way of viewing what this number is, on each individual ship but its tracked an kept up with by the program
3 . number is then used by the program to adjust certain qualifiing ship abilities
4 so we have a program doing the job already an its going almost completly unused
5 the number is crew experince
WHAT COULD BE
1. If someone tweeks the qualify factors , with such qualifiers as distance of flight instead of distance of flight in storms , possibly survival of battles
2.then takes the gained benifits which is done already an tweeks that to a slightly better ship in some small way
then each ship would have a bettered endeared value, based on what the ship accomplished, individually
this program is already doing that job on the tracking the number thing , we just need a tweeking on the qualifying factors an the rewards an the viewablity an understanding to all
351 days, 22 hours, 57 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I would like to draw everyone's attention to this insightful comment from @Smn where he describes his experience trying to introduce new people to Planets.

>I discussed a lot with people on what works and what not. While there were a lot of specific things, widely they could be categorized under three main categories:

>1) Too much work. This was central

>2) Bad UI/UX. Notable was that 0% was calling for better graphics. But this was critizism about how easy it was to use the UI for the things you wanted to do

>3) Illogical and / or annoying game design issues

>To paraphrase one: If I made some mistakes in the early game, there is no way to fix the situation and come back. I don't like quitting but you're just stuck for months in the game with very little you can do.

(this last paragraph is actually the 4th category in itself)

Let's go one by one and see what it means / could possibly be done about it.

1. "Too much work". Well there is way too much work to do in Civilization games, yet that doesn't preclude Firaxis from selling millions of copies. So this statement actually means "too many un-fun things to do". The game design basically screams to automate parts that should be automated, for example instead of tax rate control we should see a control to select taxing strategy with a descriptive name (e.g. growth tax, max tax, zero tax) and a number. Same goes about planetary buildings, now I have to go and type target numbers on every planet whereas it should really be doing its job automatically while I still get a chance to type in numbers manually. Neither of these things are particularly fun or meaningful, with exception of a few key planets usually near the frontier, and special cases like hiss mission.

2. "Bad UI/UX". Some of it stems from the game rules complexity. The best we could do there is fix visual weights given to various controls on ship and planet screen. See also my comment earlier in this thread on what I would do with friendly codes. I don't find UI/UX terrible, it's not "great" by any standard but functional. I had to explain what is where to people I introduced to Planets; they'd certainly have trouble locating it themselves, but much less problems remembering where is what.

Personally I feel that the biggest problem with the UI to a new player is that they are not specifically told what to do during each turn. The checkboxes are there, but it needs to be much more in your face, so the "next" button takes you to the next object you need to take care of this turn, with options to ignore or skip turn, just like it works in 4X games.

3. "Illogical and / or annoying game design issues". It is certainly possible to reduce complexity by changing game design in such a way to make a reasonable compromise between simplicity and depth. But that requires a lot of political will to take away and not just add, and I am well aware how hard it is to fight inertia. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't fight this war just yet.

Where we do have some freedom to experiment without touching the core mechanics is game macro-parameters. For one thing, I personally think default Fight or Fail setting is not aggressive enough so weaker players don't get eliminated soon enough, providing for longer games. I'd suggest to go up from +1 per 5 turns to +1 per 4. Also, the diplomatic victory makes it necessary to go and colonize and recolonize every planet you can, which controversially requires you to do more non-fun things. By contrast, in a game mode that I proposed in a different thread, point capture, it isn't necessary that you absolutely colonize and make maximum use of every planet possible; after all, you only need to control the homeworlds to win. That's just a hypothesis; it remains to be seen if that's going to change player behavior in the direction we want, but the idea is to try different approaches and see if there's a way to create a better experience.

4. "If I made some mistakes in the early game, there is no way to fix the situation and come back." There's not that much we can actually do, or even want to do about it, well other than making sure these errors don't happen because the player messed something up in the UI, like trying to convert entire population of a planet with a starbase to molybden in a merlin, or pillaging your bovinoids by mistake.

But otherwise, I'd turn the statement around and say that this is what makes the game truly challenging; in many cases a poorly set up turn becomes your ultimate loss, especially when fighting crystals/privateers. The game keeps you on your toes, and it does require dedication; that's what you are basically singing up for, so if you're not fine with that, you're probably not a Planets player material. But I like to think there are enough of us crazies around :) and in Travian-like games where you can easily lose an army you've been building for a couple months to one bad attack, yet people still play them.

From my own experience, I have to say it again, there are people I introduced to Planets who got to really like it after I mentored them personally for a month or so - so the game has definitely "still got it"! So in my book, the best plan, as I said in the original post, is about a combination of personal mentoring and UI/UX fixes.
351 days, 22 hours, 44 minutes ago
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admiral rex star
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
It still doesn't impact C.I. in combination with the Privateers. For the Bird to be able to intercept a fleet in movement while cloaked, makes it to damn easy, for Bird Towers to tow to Privateer Robbers. Limiting abilities per race, does not impact C.I. in relation to the Privateers. (Which I think is Pisces real issue with C.I. It's relationship with the Pirate.) As a stand alone ability, I doubt anyone has a problem with the Bird having it.
351 days, 22 hours, 24 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Talespin,

Your suggestion to work on more game options is supported by one interesting learning from eSports-friendly games (like e.g. Rocket League): in order to make the most out of your game, provide players with many custom options, and let them figure out the most fun modes to play - essentially outsource the format to the audience. In Planets, we have great examples of Lone Wolf games and honor-based PLS games. The idea is to keep track of these efforts, and as soon as they become successful, support them on the project level, by making them "official".
351 days, 20 hours, 17 minutes ago
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garth vader
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
>1. "Too much work". Well there is way too much work to do in Civilization >games, yet that doesn't preclude Firaxis from selling millions of copies. >So this statement actually means "too many un-fun things to do".

Planets is almost ideally tailored to my likes and interests in a game, yet I have quit playing and this is the main reason.

I have enough time to still play but it's not distributed in the way it has to be for planets. I would love to be able to plan ship movements turns ahead of time. Freighter go here, pick up dur, go here pick of tri, go here drop off all, repeat.

I don't want all that abstracted away though. What planets has that no other game I have played has is the real feel of logistics in war. Fuel, torps, fighters all need to be planned for. The planning and strategic choices are awesome in this game.

But if you skip doing the boring tasks you aren't going to be able to implement successful plans. Games are going to take many months and I have to be able to take a holiday without my absence wrecking games and plans I have spent months on.

When the Horwasp came out I realized that any new development was going to be focused on adding new bells and whistles without tackling fundamental issues and I was out.
351 days, 20 hours, 3 minutes ago
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tomprime
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Garth+Vader - Games are going to take many months and I have to be able to take a holiday without my absence wrecking games and plans I have spent months on.

Play in human-hosted games. My games are two turns per week and I will always pause when asked. Other hosts are just as responsive.

Come back to us!
351 days, 18 hours, 13 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
In my opinion what is also frightening away players is how the site is managed. Or the lack of management.

MANAGEMENT NEEDS TO MANAGE MORE
There is lack of visual management. Everything appears to be done by volunteers.

Volunteers answer 99.99% of the questions (has increased very slightly due to the implementation of a few Campaign Advantages and features). When we have the same question asked multiple times and none of the volunteers can answer it I would expect Management to chip in more frequently.

No public support seems to be given to the Documentation volunteers when they get picked on for doing things their way. I am sure they would appreciate some support for their work.

Forums do not seem to be managed. We have flame wars that go on for ever. But Management does nothing visible about it. Apart from giving us the option to ignore threads. Which is hiding the problem, not solving it.

We have 3 Rules and everyone has their interpretation of the rules and what breaks them. Then everyone sees people doing things that would seem to be breaking these rules but nothing visible is done about it.

I think more visual enforcement of the rules would help.

We have a whole bunch of extras given out during a Planets Con (which seems to be organised by Volunteers). In previous years we have had an announcement on those but that has not happened yet. Some people do not want to listen to several hours of videos to find the announcements when a short post can identify them.

We had interviews of major people and that has not happened in months. We need more management posts as well.

We send in contact reports and get zero replies to them. So we don't know if they have been read or the Management does not care about our opinions.

And after you send in 20 odd contact requests with no reply you assume you are being ignored.


So I would prefer that more time is invested in the management of the site.

But I know that we have around 1000 paying members and that's not enough to fund much if its not done voluntary.

So I think the Management should invest more into the current Volunteers. Give them more public support and more guidelines into how the site should be governed and also pipe up if you disagree with them.

Give specific ones with the skills and more available time access to the site code to answer the tricky questions. Or basically give time over so they can ask the tricky questions at a set number a month and this will be answered.

Give them forum approval powers to kill forum posts.

Possibly get them answering contact posts so the contact system seems to work.

And what I think what most people would like to see is more rule 2 inquiries with public opinions into what is and what is not a rule 2 offence.


If more was done to manage some of these management issues I am sure we also would retain more players.

But I know my opinions are sometimes different from others.


351 days, 17 hours, 49 minutes ago
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dazdya
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Martinr To me, everything you say seems logical.
351 days, 17 hours, 49 minutes ago
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mrchrstn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Dotman's planet manager add-on is the only reason I ever came back. Changed the game entirely. I'll quit if it ever breaks.

Also, the idea that players, in the beginning, should keep playing a losing game for months, for the sanctity of a game they're still learning, is pure idiocy. Almost the same idiocy in random system-created games. Treating every game like it's the championship isn't helpful.
351 days, 6 hours, 55 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
"Martinr: Volunteers answer 99.99% of the questions"

Can't think of a game company that answers similar questions... anyone know of one so I can bask in it's unicorn glow?
___

"Martinr: When we have the same question asked multiple times and none of the volunteers can answer it I would expect Management to chip in more frequently."

@Martinr: I barely miss any threads or posts in the Activity Feed all these years... there are not a crazy amount of questions I cannot answer at all let alone one that are asked "multiple times".

Part of the problem of course is they are not being tracked in Documentation... instead a mixture of vague wording is used with a sprinkling of direct warnings... this is awful of course because you can't tell the difference between vague wording on purpose and unintended vagueness. This in fact CREATES more questions as the vague worded parts comeback as a question in the Activity Feed. A few of us as you know are each keeping a list of such unknowns... we can answer them all if time is spent researching. Even if you read the code... I'd still think running a test to be certain be required.


You accused people of being cheaters for forming a large Full Alliance... so your opinion on forum civility lacks teeth. And I recall you are on the record stating people shouldn't call people cheaters... unless you just meant Rule 2 cheating... which is odd... like executing jaywalkers and day paroling serial murderers type of logic.

"Martinr: No public support seems to be given to the Documentation volunteers when they get picked on for doing things their way."

Whisperer hasn't made a homophobic comment in a long time... I have a hard time believing he stopped on his own accord... I think the Admins simply 'draw the line' differently than both of us... which isn't surprising since everyone has a different line. You for example don't like the word 'shit' as you requested I not use it... in Canada we say that word all the time... shit, even in Church.

"Martinr: We send in contact reports and get zero replies to them. So we don't know if they have been read"

It would be advantageous to know what order they looked into... my best guess is sequential or last-in-first-out order... but I think it is safe to say they are ALL looked at and then organized based on priority.

Replying to CONTACT form messages is a waste of time... the only thing worse is having to track the time you spent writing a message (don't be a lawyer if you don't want to spend your day tracking your life in minutes).

HOWEVER... when they look at one and I assume determine what category and priority it is, they could have software notify you that it has been looked at and maybe even when closed... but not as an extra step... but automatically as they are handled. You don't even need to write software for this, plenty of software already exists for that. Honestly UserVoice probably should replace the CONTACT form (if they can, they should remove all the old denied and completed requests.
351 days, 6 hours, 3 minutes ago
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planets-nu.org admin
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Martinr,

> Forums do not seem to be managed. We have flame wars that go on for ever. But Management does nothing visible about it.

We're working on it. Right now, our greatest needs are: a Treasurer (US resident) and a PHP programmer (location doesn't matter).
350 days, 22 hours, 3 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Planets-nu.org+admin thanks for giving feed back to my frustrated post.

@Glyn

There are a number of recent posts were detailed host knowledge was needed that would have needed host access to answer it. Or make it easier to answer. I will try and find the posts and post in those feeds to keep it separate. Maybe we can have a system where these are identified and sent to Admin to add their things to do.

Other gaming sites may not answer technical enquiries directly. But I work for a technical company and my customers complain when we don't answer their questions (and are quite happy with us when we do). And I suppose they pay more than $3 a month and expect more for their investment. So maybe I am indeed biased.

My recent posts on secret teams was mostly about their visibility. Increase their visibility and its more a level playing field for everyone else as they know they play together a lot so everyone know they MAY have a lot more friends in the game already (PS the ones I am complaining about are the ones YOU have complained about in the past as well). If everyone knows that 4 players who have played around 20 games together (as in the 4 players have played as teams of 3 or 4 in the same game lots of times with no in game communication some up to 20 odd times).

Multi accounts are worse as they are hard to detect and prove they are multi accounts. But multiple accounts playing together all the time is also bad, but its not illegal. Unfair to everyone else but not against site rules.

Contacts requests that are easy questions could be batted to volunteers to take time to answer, like the forums.

More personal questions obviously needs to be Admin controlled and some cannot be put as user voice.





350 days, 21 hours, 38 minutes ago
View joshua's profile
joshua
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Planets-Nu.Org Admin is not an official admin. Not sure who posted that, but the last thing we need is a PHP programmer.
350 days, 21 hours, 36 minutes ago
View joshua's profile
joshua
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Sorry, my mistake. I realize that Planets-nu.org is a separate site. I thought for a moment there someone was representing Planets Nu. Carry on.

PS. I have nothing against PHP programmers, we just don't need one. :)
350 days, 21 hours, 34 minutes ago
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mursu
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
That name is indeed very misleading. For the first time I read a post from that user I thought it was from this site.
350 days, 21 hours, 30 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Maybe who it is should be more clearly identified or banned from posting in the forums to stop confusion.
350 days, 21 hours, 24 minutes ago
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planets-nu.org admin
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
> That name is indeed very misleading.

I'm the Admin for the https://www.planets-nu.org/ site. We're working to bring Commander Koski's off-site Forum idea into being.

The site name had to be close enough to Planets.nu to be instantly recognizable, but enough different to be clearly a different site. I had hoped that the ".org" ending would have done that, but apparently I was in error.

My apologizes to any who were confused, especially Joshua. I edited the above post to add a link to the site, and I'll be sure to include that link in any future posts.
350 days, 21 hours, 19 minutes ago
View tom graves's profile
tom graves
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
aaaagh! The link colors! They buuuuurn!

Please change them.
350 days, 21 hours, 17 minutes ago
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mursu
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I'll suggest to change the username to just:

Planets-nu.org Offsite Forum

The admin in the name makes one think the user is admin on this site.
350 days, 21 hours, 16 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
>aaaagh! The link colors! They buuuuurn!

and you thought geocities was long dead and gone
350 days, 21 hours, 14 minutes ago
View challengespaceyard's profile
challengespaceyard
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Geocities... I miss those days.

At least we now have more competitive services these days, both in the free realm, and in the commercial realm.
350 days, 21 hours, 13 minutes ago
View tom n's profile
tom n
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Many great ideas here. Personally I think the admins are doing a pretty good job when you consider the low membership fees and relatively low number of paying customers. Years ago I did see more responses from the site concerning questions and ideas for improvements, but I expect as the site has grown they're time has been spent on other, more pressing needs.

I agree with whoever said the Fight or Fail numbers need to be higher/faster. On the one hand we admonish droppers, but on the other we make they're 'death' too long and drawn out. I suspect many of these players would welcome a faster FoF and allow them to start a new game.

First time visitors should be encouraged to try a practice game versus the AI.

Currently they would have to:

Click on "Start Game"
Click on "Private MultiPlayer" (I bet many newcomers miss this one)

Now here it gets way too complex, but basically one must set parameters and choose the race they want to practice and switch ALL the other races to "Computer Player".

Once all settings are complete, the new player clicks "Create Game" and they have a perfect playground to practice moves in a decent simulated game with the race of their choice.

I still use this method for testing "What if" scenarios to take back to my "real" games.

Now what if a brand new visitor to the site was able to click on "Practice your race HERE" and be sent directly to the above practice map (without all the complicated settings)? Once in the playground a basic tutorial could walk them through the early steps.

This is a great game, but we may be chasing away new players when they enter their first game versus experienced players and get their butts kicked. Let them take some swings at the practice range before having them play 18 holes of golf.
350 days, 20 hours, 54 minutes ago
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mrchrstn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Oh my god, yes, THIS:

Tom N - "I agree with whoever said the Fight or Fail numbers need to be higher/faster. On the one hand we admonish droppers, but on the other we make their 'death' too long and drawn out. I suspect many of these players would welcome a faster FoF and allow them to start a new game."

This would fix a lot. I've never really been sure of a decent FoF setting when I hosted games, now I see how many problems it could fix.

I am currently languishing in FIVE, count them FIVE, games where I'd love to quit, can't affect any change to the game AT ALL, but can't quit because of tenacity penalty. In at least 2 of these games, I don't have any starbases, in 1 I don't have Starbases or ships. In another, I tried playing the Horwasp and now I'm in a place where I can't build ships, ever. Please kill me off!

And my account is still at 70% tenacity after rage-quitting several Horwasp games. (It's a beta-game, and settings may change on you without notice, but you STILL can't quit.) That was over two years ago. Tenacity shouldn't be that hard to raise. (And yes, I've volunteered for lots of dropped slots, but sometimes you just join a losing position and continue to lose, which awards nothing.)

Aggressive, default, FoF would fix a lot about this horrible combination.

One side note to the person who said there isn't anything for him to buy on this site: 'Second Account'. You don't have to cheat or do anything underhanded with it for it to be super useful. Of course, I know lots of folks don't want to pay for one account, but I found it a good option.
350 days, 19 hours, 20 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I suggested that, and I do think it's going to help at least somewhat.

FoF helps to clean up otherwise-tag-alongs, vassals, and removes the possibility of cheating by having a friend sign up as e.g. crystal with one planet and passing a few cloaked miners to them. But the most important effect of FoF is dictating pace of the game - if you aren't on your toes, if you want to turtle up instead of expanding, you're out.

Base on my experience, I'd say the best FoF speed is +1 per 3 turns. Developers of this game can calculate an idea by looking at actual games and checking at which FoF speeds it starts to eliminate early races that would eventually become top finishers (either top 3 or at least survivors). In other words, if at a faster FoF speed no future top finisher would be eliminated at any time during the game, then that faster FoF would have been beneficial to the game by culling the weak earlier.
350 days, 18 hours, 25 minutes ago
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mcnimble
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
FoF is aimed at preventing a game to drag on (400 turns) and on because it is a stalemate. Terminating a player that is effectively beaten, is a different thing.

Yet around T100, players who are loosing, but still want to fight (and have the fleet), succumb to FoF. That seems unfair as well (i.e. it's not only about future winners, but everyone who has the tenacity to play).

How about a mechanism that looks at how much you lost in the last X turns? If you loose 50% of your planets and military score in 10 turns...

Heck, if it is about shortening the demise, instead of terminating a player, the option could be given to admit defeat to a player, after sustaining a certain amount of losses.
350 days, 18 hours, 3 minutes ago
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turssi
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
I like the FoF combined with early kills. Just smack your neighbor and around 15 planets they are out.

+1 every 4 turns is ok. I haven't seen it come to action much late in the game. But then again my games tend to end around 120 turns, which is nice.
350 days, 17 hours, 57 minutes ago
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alejop
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
There are also other marketing options to consider that would help attract newcomers and also ease the leaning curve: a nice looking manual/rulebook with modern designs, lots of graphics and illustrations, and simple guiding texts.

It should be firstly play-oriented, like an RPG manual, but it can also include tons of history of the game. Planets is the oldest living game of its king, and that alone is a marketing treasure: it is a game that has given and continues giving back rewards in exchange for all that (huge) playing time investment. A nice looking manual would sell to active and historical players alike--all those droppers are actually potential customers.

And you could go fully à la Games Workshop, and even publish individual advanced manuals for each race, introducing campaign features there. A game developer willing to go really ambitious can buy a few expensive licenses to be able to name races properly. With the long history of the game, the cross-marketing proposal can be made attractive to the franchise owners. Not an easy go, and not cheap either, but worth considering.

Also a copyright nightmare to solve, I imagine, but if anyone ever puts together something along this lines, Spanish rights are already sold. ;)

(I bought the original manual when I first registered in the eighties--but I didn't keep it!)
350 days, 13 hours, 57 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
It's Whisperer if I had to guess... no one else here would try to keep their alternate accounts secret in that situation and also refuse to add a link to the Planets.Nu WIKI
350 days, 6 hours, 2 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Alejop,

not really applicable here.

First of all, Planets doesn't have its own lore per se, as race identities are loosely based on others' IP, so while the game has apparently never big enough to warrant legal action from those IP holders (or maybe Tim had some agreements with them back then), creating artwork would definitely be too much.

Second, Games Workshop's business model doesn't work here either; they do not sell games, they sell miniatures and paints, and for them games are but a side income. So they don't sell manuals and art books to make money off of them, they sell them to promote their main cash cow.

Third, no one reads manuals for around 15 years anymore, and art books are usually a source of supplementary income for games that have a lot of artwork. Which Planets doesn't; it's a Excel spreadsheet'y game, and no one would buy it on the merits of how it really looks - so you'd have to either show a artwork that isn't really in the game, or is not part of the game's experience, or endless dialog views that aren't fun to look at.

While we're on the topic of eye candy, what Planets could really use there that doesn't contradict its gameplay is a customizable in-universe avatar that would represent each race within the game - mainly on diplomacy-related screens. (For start it could be as easy as a race leader's avatar that is just a static image, but only the default image is available for non-Premium players, a few more are available to Premium players, and there could be also some that can only be bought for real money or unlocked through in-world currency.)
350 days, 3 hours, 45 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Joshua has no time to run another business empire. Planets is a hoby not a source of income.

And if he did start expanding and marketing ways of generating money off the current races I expect Disney will splat Planets Nu and stop the game totally. Simply by employing one lawyer to hand over threats of expensive legal action.

TW and Joshua have history on their side but once they try anything new which looks different and has any monetary value Disney will say you are infringing on their recent work and they will protect it.

And I don't think Joshua has plans of mass marketing anyway.
350 days, 1 hours, 53 minutes ago
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grisu
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Things that should be changed first, before NU team starts to re-inventing planets to get potential new players:

1) get beginners into smaller sized universe and faster to end games
2) automatic replace droppers with a defensive AI
3) improve the ingame message system so that you can see unread messages at once.
350 days, 1 hours, 40 minutes ago
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escogido
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
@Martinr,

"Expensive" works both ways. When Disney decided to shut down the game that I made around ten years ago (my startup was acquired by Playdom, which has in turn then been bought by Disney), fans of the game inquired with the Mouse House if it was possible for them to buy the game out instead. The reply they got went like "eh, our legal fees for this agreement would be in hundreds of thousands range, so almost as much as we'd get from you, so we're not interested". The usual consideration "if you aren't really making any money, no one is going to bother suing you" fully applies here, since no one is trying to promote this game as "a game based on Disney IP". As long as we don't go around selling Death Star merch with planets.nu logo we're likely fine.
349 days, 11 hours, 10 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: An open letter to the team behind Planets.Nu. Dear...Write Reply
Lawsuits you know you can't win are a viable tactic... before Anonymous was hijacked by libtard script kiddies, it was about fighting Scientology... they are an excellent case study for what you can do with lawyers.