biocide or gorbie?

RE: biocide or gorbie?

impractical*

2012 days, 6 hours, 30 minutes ago

snuggles

RE: biocide or gorbie?

I'd much prefer a Rush. Just as powerful and free fighters :D

2012 days, 6 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

nah, the virgo has so many more phasers, and you still get the free fighters

2012 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

the only time, in my mind, that a rush trumps a virgo, is when it finds a homeworld undefended by starships...or by weak ones, and only if its still owned by the rebels

2012 days, 5 hours, 41 minutes ago

mjs68508

RE: biocide or gorbie?

1. Biocide vs. Gorbie: If they meet 100 times, 99 times will have other considerations (other ships, number of fighters, damage, ownership, etc.)

2. Destroy Planet has a thousand implications. Debris disks hinder both crystal's web and robot's huge minefields. It is a great defensive tool. Great for cracking open planets for minerals. Big ships, besides Empire ships, have to go around them. They move all planets withing 500 lys a few lightyears without moving ships. Peek-a-boo, all ships within 500 lys are exposed. It is a great trap. Start it up with a lone Gorbie. Stop sequence next turn while sending support ships to kill arriving enemy.

3. Since the Rush is always on the left, it can hold its own. You have to attack the Rush to stop it from RGA'ing.

- Ship type determines how the battle is fought

- Diplomacy determines the victor

2012 days, 5 hours, 36 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

why is it always on the left??

2012 days, 5 hours, 3 minutes ago

vgapsycho

RE: biocide or gorbie?

Because any decent rebel commander does not set PE when RGA'ing his enemies' HWs. Thus the Rush has the higher battle value and fights from the left.

2012 days, 4 hours, 54 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

oh....i thought he meant in general, not just that specific circumstance.

2012 days, 4 hours, 47 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

In 1:1 battle Bio and Gorie are equally strong and trade 1:1 in average. Nevertheless Bio is clearly the better ship because it has a bigger cargo room and less mass. The later is the reason why the Rush is even better than both when it comes to carrier vs carrier battles. Rebuild rate rules!

2012 days, 4 hours, 24 minutes ago

ville kauppinen

RE: biocide or gorbie?

In average yes, but in practise one Gorbie has destroyed 2 Rushes from right side with bit of luck and I've found out that, at least in NU battles, averages do not happen quite often ;)

So, even with one "not-so-average" battle you can get massive PBP advantage, one rush will not, never, destroy 2 Gorbies and/or Biocides.

2012 days, 2 hours, 36 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

That's the common problem with the average man. You rarely meet one. But he's fundamental for many calculations.

+Rush from the left vs. 2 Gorbies from the right+

No ship survives: 0,1%
1 Rush survives: 0,3%
1 Gorbies survives 61,7%
2 Gorbies survive: 37,9%

2012 days, 2 hours, 26 minutes ago

ville kauppinen

RE: biocide or gorbie?

Yep. Another example is the federation Thor. Right-side mass bonus has "only" 60% chance of kicking in. When it does, Thor will damage, again for example, Gorbie 20-30% with MK8's.

But, for some reason people looking at statistics do not usually build these ship in mass - which is mainly the reason why federation performs poor (in single combat) against carrier races. You'll get an advantage in numbers as well as in performance by building thors in place of Novas or Missouris - if you dare to risk the 60% :D

2012 days, 2 hours, 9 minutes ago

jobo

RE: biocide or gorbie?

If you are playing the feds, then either the Rush or the Biocide is the best pick, simply because of the extra cargo space (feds are mean when holding big carriers)

2011 days, 21 hours, 11 minutes ago

megalomaniac

RE: biocide or gorbie?

Hi Emork

These are my stats using PCC2 play vcr and simming the battles 1100 sims (although Stefan has told me the algorith does 110 sims and when you keep repeating it, it just recycles the same battles). My numbers for the right side gorbies differ from yours. I obtain odds that both gorbies survive on the right side as 0.5%, not 37%. It may be because we used different ftr loads or different hosts to resolve combat. Thost is the pcc2 default and I changed it to Nu host. Stefan had a thread in the forums about some differences a year back or so.

Baseline settings
1. Use NU Host algorithm for the battles
2. Full ftr loads and heavy phasers (beams won't matter).
3. Set numeric Friendly codes on the pair of ships being force to fight on the right side and alpha codes for ships on the left
4. To keep it simple, both Gorbies get numeric codes and both Rushes get alpha codes when the Gorbies are forced to fight on the right side
5. Both Rushes get numeric codes and both Gorbies get alpha codes when the Rushes are forced to fight on the right side

Results with Gorbies forced to fight on the right side
57% of the time, both gorbies die, 1 rush survives with 95% damage
39.6% of the time both Rushes die and a Gorbie survives with 73% damage
0.5% of the time both rushes die and both Gorbies survive with the fighting Gorbie having 83% damage
0.5% of the time both Gorbies die and both Rushes survive although the fighting Rush has 98% damage

Same setup but force the Rush's to fight from the right side (assume they are defending their OWN homeworld)

74.2% of the time both Rushes die and a Gorbie survives with 50% shields and NO damage
21.6% of the time both rushes die and both Gorbies survive with the fighting Gorbie having 12% damage
3% of the time both Gorbies die and a single Rushes survive although the fighting Rush has 89% damage
1.2% of the time all ships are killed

This shows that the left sided ftr advantage is pretty substantial. With Gorbies on the right side, nearly 40% of the time one will still survive while both Rushes die. With Gorbies on the left side, 95% of the time at least one Gorbie survives while both Rushes die. All those faster launching ftrs and better intercept techniques (Left sided ftrs shoot down right sided fighters like the Midway Turkey shoot the US had in WW2) really are a MAJOR FORCE MULTIPLIER.

Of course if you play with friendly codes you can force one rush to fight on the right and one on the left and introduce even more variability but I chose to keep the Rushs as a pair on either the left or right side.

Cheers,

MEGA

2011 days, 19 hours, 18 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

i enjoy the elaborate response this has gotten, but i was just asking for people's preference between the two :)

2011 days, 19 hours, 16 minutes ago

ville kauppinen

RE: biocide or gorbie?

Well if you fight 1:1 then its decided from left or right. But in general I'd prefer Biocide as you can load it 200 fighters, take 120 supplies and ride through minefield taking few hits. Gorbie has 70 slots smaller cargo bay.

2011 days, 18 hours, 46 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

@Megalomaniac: Your result is no contradiction to mine because we had different settings. I had just one Rush fighting against the 2 Gorbies, you had two Rushes. All in all the conclusion is he same: left/right is more important than the 5 beams difference. Which in most cases means that the Rush does better (because of RGA) and when you take the rebuild rate into account the Rush does MUCH better.

One note: The usual 110 battles of PCC2 do indeed show the exact result of a battle between _two_ ships. If more ships are involed you have to make much more sims. For my numbers I made some thousands.

For the starters: This does not mean that the EE can not win against the Rebels. It just means that the EE can not win against the Rebels with a strategy of carrier battles.

2011 days, 18 hours, 41 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

i must point out, that most of these traits only apply to rebels, and is therefore not a true reflection on the rush itself.....in the hands of lets say a pirate its worth much less.

2011 days, 18 hours, 30 minutes ago

mjs68508

RE: biocide or gorbie?

pbp calculations are such a red herring and a useless exercise. I never build large carriers with pbp's, except for an emergency or mistake, usually the latter.

pbp's are much more effective building small ships. Their cumulative effect not only is greater than a big carrier, they deny more ship slots to your enemy.

Also, who lines up their carriers for a fight? An SSF + Gorbie takes out a Rush, with a pbp profit. I'll do that all day long.

If a Rush gets the left side advantage, it is because it is attacking. This also means:

1. Rebel has a long distance to replace losses.
2. Defender has all his local support ships to tip the tide in his favor.
3. Defender knows what attacker has available.
4. Attacker has minefield worries.
5. Defender can repair ships after victory, while attacker's victorious ships can be hunted down and killed cheaply.

When 2 good players fight each other (and they are even in empires fighting 1-on-1), both are knock out and the other players zoom ahead. Diplomacy rules.

2011 days, 18 hours, 24 minutes ago

mjs68508

RE: biocide or gorbie?

Having a Privateer coming at you with multiple big carriers is a nightmare. If you stay and fight, the ships are all out of fuel. There is no combat and next turn he captures all your carriers.

A good player can use any ship, anywhere, against anyone to cause great pain.

2011 days, 18 hours, 15 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

@mechno: Yes, RGA is irrevant in this case. So the Rush is justbetter than the Gorbie and not MUCH better.

@mjs: Yes 1, building carriers by PBP can be questioned but sometimes it's good. It is done in champ games by very good players. But even if you don't do it PBP considerations haven't less relevance. In the long run it's makes a difference if you build three support ships after each carrier battle and your opponent just two.
Yes 2, diplomacy is even more important. An additional ability can be worth 50+ ships.

2011 days, 17 hours, 49 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

not only is rga irrelevant, but as pirates its rebuild rate is no more either.....as a pirate its pretty even if not worse

2011 days, 17 hours, 46 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

and @ mjs, i dare you to come a hurt me with a q tanker.....anytime...anyplace buddy...lol

2011 days, 17 hours, 44 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

and when i am forced to fight pirates i try to make a point of seeing to it that i am mined in after, and that nothing with a decent fuel tank is left standing on their end, and that all mine are full

2011 days, 17 hours, 36 minutes ago

genocidal

RE: biocide or gorbie?

@Mechnomaniac, The point they are given is no race is going to use a gifted or stolen carrier the same way. Pirates are NOT going to attack you with a heavy carrier. They will drop it on your fleet 0 fuel and rob you senseless. Races that have torp ships are going to use it as a finishing ship, not first attack.

But back to original point, Biocide!!! Just gives me shivers of joy saying it. It's purpose is it's name.

2011 days, 17 hours, 33 minutes ago

RE: biocide or gorbie?

agreed, it is a true starbase ender.

2011 days, 17 hours, 19 minutes ago

genocidal

RE: biocide or gorbie?

Best way to learn to fight a pirate... play a pirate. They are a LOT of fun. And the experience you gain can be applied to defending against them when playing other races. Just saying mines mines mines, is not full proof. And that only HELPS prevents a breech. What do you do when you are already infiltrated? It is easy to say what you can do to defend as a blanket statement. But if you do not understand the principle, then you truly will not be able to effectively apply the tactics and counter tactics.

My next big read and aspect to understand is battle values and manipulating the left and right side. I have read it several times and somewhere in the middle I get tunnel vision and pass out... and wake up and try again. I do not think I will ever master manipulating the left or right side. But I am going to at least be competent.

2011 days, 16 hours, 47 minutes ago

coolcodycool

RE: biocide or gorbie?

Biocide vs Gorbie, sure they are even in battle, but saying that is like saying "empire vs cyborg" or "Ferrari vs Lamborghini" it doesn't (always) matter what they are, it matters who is behind the wheel, or in this case behind the keyboard. it is rare for a biocide to fight a gorbie in the middle of space. it doesn't matter how high your military score is, it matters how you use it.

2011 days, 15 hours, 39 minutes ago

megalomaniac

RE: biocide or gorbie?