Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

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3000 days, 7 hours, 19 minutes ago

Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

As you know, in the current Nu system we have two levels of alliance. "Safe Passage" which is a peace agreement that keeps players from fighting each other and provides the allied players information about the minefields they currently have.

The second level is the "Full Alliance" which currently provides information about minefields and a players ship information including enemy ships between players.

In the original game these distinctions existed but there were differences between various clients. The ultimate way that players could share information was by sending each other their complete turn files (RST Files). Several players have brought this up to me and I wanted to pose the question to the community.

Should Full Alliances share complete turn information with each other or should it stay as it is now or should it be somewhere in between.

Possible information to share would be:

My Ships (currently shared)

Enemy Ships (currently shared)

My Minefields (currently shared)

Scanned Enemy Minefields

My Planets

Scanned Enemy Planets

Info (brown) planets

My Ship Cargo/Fuel/Damage Details

What do you guys feel? Should all data be shared in a full alliance as if the players had exchanged RST's? (this would perhaps be more similar to the original game)

3000 days, 6 hours, 6 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

There's already been alot of discussion already on this topic, so I thought I would link one of the major ones.

link

I think the current alliance right now should be the lowest level alliance. It has several problems, you have absolutely no insight into your allies empire. All that you really share that's of use is you see where their ships are and you see what they see. You have no idea if their torp ships have ordnance, or what kind of torps are on those ships. I would also like to have the option of allowing an ally to do my turn for me without having to give them my userid and password.

I think there should be one to two more alliance levels. The next step up should be full rst exchange. The highest level should be the ability to play your allies turn.

3000 days, 6 hours, 4 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I think scanned enemy minefields and planets should be shared, for sure. It just makes sense that allies would share their intelligence gathered on their enemies, and would make coordination of efforts that much easier. As for giving out all the information (like the old RST exchange), I'm not sure that I feel strongly about it either way. I can see lots of reasons for wanting to share everything, especially if your ally is someone you actually know and trust. I can also see why people might not want to share everything, as they might be allied for convenience sake, but don't necessarily completely trust each other or their intentions. However, the extra bonus of sharing everything is that it'll make the decision to go to full alliance more momentous. There will be added risk involved in entering into a full alliance, and will likely cut down on the number of full alliances and make games a little more interesting. And at the same time, it will make alliances that much more effective when they are formed thereby making them more risky and rewarding at the same time.

In short, I think all the data on the enemies should be shared, but I'm fine with whatever everyone decides on the rest of it.

3000 days, 5 hours, 53 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Joshua:

I am strongly in favor of adding the functionality you listed to full alliances. If there is a lot of opposition to adding it to the current "full alliance" option, a "Share Data Alliance" could be added as another layer, with the functionality you list.

Reasons:

1) It will significantly ease communication with allies by eliminating the "there is fuel here of there," "I found a starbase here," "if you need tritanium you can send an LDSF here," the Fcode of this planet is xxx," etc. messages.

2) This above will help to break down whatever language barriers that might inhibit the success of an alliance. The two allies will now only have to coordinate tactical and diplomatic issues in the foreign language.

3) It will allow newbies (like me) to learn more from their vetran allies.

4) It will turn my less communicative (and therefore seemingly less reliable) allies into a much more useful allies! (no offense to my current allies! I am not always responsive either!)

Great work on the site, of course.

Jake

3000 days, 3 hours, 53 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I agree with yakies1. The idea of another level of alliance (perhaps "Alliance with fully shared info" or some such as the tittle) would fit the old shared RST format.

I think this would enhance the diplomatic portion of the game.

3000 days, 3 hours, 48 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I see no downside to a much greater exchange of data.

A checkbox format may be useful?

[x] Share your planet data
[x] Share your ship data
[x] Share scanned ships
[x] Share scanned minefields
[x] Share sensor sweep data

3000 days, 3 hours, 30 minutes ago

challengespaceyard

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I'm with rbos. A series of checkboxes would very nicely benefit Planets Nu, along with an option to actually share control.

3000 days, 3 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

The ability to have a full-alliance with rst-like information makes sense to me. Although, with so many players still getting to know each other, I definitely like veldan's and others' idea of three levels of Full Alliance. Perhaps:

FA3) all rst information except planet data

FA2) all rst information including planet data

FA1) all rst information including planet data, PLUS the ability for my FA1 ally to play my turn

Bond

3000 days, 2 hours, 19 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Yeah, I was looking for some post from shrambot where he outlined some kind of checkbox alliance system, but I can't seem to track it down. Maybe it's just one of those things he would have made that I just assumed that he already did.

I would like the ability to totally customize data sharing, but I have a feeling that it may be easier to just have several pre-defined tiers. That way you can negotiate for a military alliance / intelligence share alliance which is the current "full alliance" and then negotiate for a full information exchange alliance.

This may call for a change to the victory conditions of games, but I think that most of the victory conditions are still kinda blah...

What I would like is the ability to share info with non-allied people that could get displayed on the map. For instance when the Empire lets you know where your enemies starbases are.

3000 days, 1 hours, 54 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I vote for three different predefined levels. The current two plus the new one:

Peace Treaty

Somewhat sharing alliance (current full alliance)

Full alliance with all info.

And it might be good to have the full alliance only go active once BOTH races offer this level of alliance. For the other two levels we can leave it as it is.

Another idea would be to not announce the medium alliance publicly, but announce the full alliance. Might be worth it given the additional benefits. I haven't really thought through this one yet, but wanted to throw it out there.

Granting another player permission to play turns for you should be completely independent of the alliances!

2999 days, 23 hours, 29 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

+1 to rbos check boxes :)

2999 days, 22 hours, 30 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Fully support the discussion above, these type of changes will really enhance the richness of the alliance within the UI.

Please do not forget the option for another player to run the turns on your behalf as it is an equally important request that is linked to this topic. Cracking that will really help one of the other 'noisy' discussions about player holiday/stoppages etc.

Ideally an ally in game or a nominated player outside would be best for options as not all games you have an ally who can do it so it would put an artificial requirement on a full allaince in game that may not be appropriate.. I am thinking about games which are still starting where alliances/trust is not yet there but you need to go on holiday.

2999 days, 21 hours, 0 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I having used this functionality a lot with Kedalion I find that we have a similar opinion.

Three simple levels that document what is shared. Some sort of table can explain it simply rows: what is shared, columns the three levels.

Making the rows of such a table all configurable a tick box may be ok so long as it's not too complex/long. It reminds me nearly of PHOST alliances.

On the alliance set up, I agree also that it should be ONCE BOTH are allied. I suggested some warning when it was one way because I have seen more than one opponents of mine "forgetting" this. For example: In Rebirth 3 the Colonial fell for it and it allowed us to know to how kick him more effectively.

I would not discuss the "alliance announcement" now nor the "play for me while on holiday" feature now. The discussion would go in bloody circles.

First redesign alliance (having in mind that these two points could be/would be addressed building from the alliance implementation). Then open discussion on requirements for warnings and holidays.

2999 days, 20 hours, 17 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

i like the idea of shared data, this reduces long updating messages and calls, but i would like to add, that shared enemy minefield data (if displayed on-screen) will reduce the minefield's effect, especially against cloakers.

shared planets (no sb's) would be enough for me.. then i don't have to discuss so long about large scale strategy.

--------------------------------------

how about a turn machine?

2999 days, 20 hours, 3 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

please let a full alliance a a REAL full alliance - everything elese is a non agression treaty

I need somebody from our alliance to at least coordinate actions from my turn with their actions during my holiday phase.

If everybody from my alliance could open my turn and do this it would be helpfull

(assuming they get a warning if I'm in my turn myself - to prevent conflicts due to multiple access)

2999 days, 15 hours, 41 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

The ability to share more data with allies would definitely be a great option to have! But to remain faithful to the original game my opinion is that in games without add-ons only options should be the ones already in place and the additional option of having full alliance together with full data as if RST's were exchanged.

2999 days, 15 hours, 0 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

+1 check box

2999 days, 12 hours, 30 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

+ 1 upgrading the alliance info.

As said for other players that will make life easier. The check box option sounds good just in case you want to keep something just for yourself for whatever reason.

Joshua if you guys decide to improve the diplomacy area have a look at this thread too, it might help.

http://vgaplanets.nu/discussion/the-forgotten-war-frontdiplomacy

2999 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

+1 check box

I'm not so sure about letting my ally to play my turns freely, that would make to cheat easier. Maybe I'll let it if every time a players play the turn of another the system sends a message to all the other players.

I won't let my allies to see my friendly either. ¿Why should you match friendly if he can see all of them and take decissions over your turns without asking? An alliance still needs some kind of coordination between players and friendly match is one of the points.

2999 days, 10 hours, 10 minutes ago

james t. plagerism

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I think it's essential that alliance options be upgraded. Without repeating all the good points mentioned above, the 3 predefined levels, plus customizable checkboxes would be good:

[x] No combat
[x] Safe minefield passage (no-hit only, not show all minefield locations)

[x] Show owned planets (ownership only, no details)
[x] Share ship locations (hull type & location only (incl. cloaked), no spec/cargo details)
[x] Share scanned enemy ships
[x] Share scanned enemy minefields
[x] Share scanned enemy planets

[x] Share full planet details (structures, minerals, starbase details)
[x] Share full ship details (specs, cargo)
[x] Share friendly codes (planets, ships)

Simple default presets, kind of like the current interface, could pre-select Safe Passage (level 1), Basic Alliance (level 1 + level 2), and Full Alliance (level 1 + level 2 + level 3). But you could customize each checkbox to suit your playing and alliance style. Make sure to show what the other race offers for each of the checkbox items.

I also like the idea that level 3 full data sharing only starts when both parties have enabled it.

2999 days, 9 hours, 52 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I'm all for all of this, but also would be interested in games where ship/resource sharing is impossible in order to discourage some of the more arbitrary pregame alliances.

2999 days, 8 hours, 48 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

James's list looks good. I especially like that he added own planet without details and scanned enemy planets to the medium alliance.

Also nitemare's comment about FCs.

2999 days, 6 hours, 5 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I like the current level of sharing, but having the option of sharing more would be good as well.

Another interesting option to have would be the ability to allow an ally to give orders to selected ships. The should would still be yours (and still have your race abilities) , and this delegation of authority could be rescinded at any time. I can think of all kinda of useful things to do with this, and it could be latter expanded into a feature that would allow for a shadow / alternate player to take control of an empire when the primary is going to off line for a period of time.

2999 days, 6 hours, 2 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Hold on a minute. What if a player resigns? There has to be rules.

One of my biggest gripes about the alliance system now is that a player can resign and a new player takes over and I will not know it. unless i am looking at the list of players every freaking turn.

If a player resigns from the game all alliances should be broken and all communication.

Also the new player should not be able to see any history of past turns. They should only be able to see there ships and planets they own.

If i had a full alliance with the former player the new player taking over the race should Not be able to see my planets and ships.

2999 days, 1 hours, 17 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

That's a fair point from donald. If a new player joins in a resigned race, the history regarding alliances should maybe be limited. Especially while it is possible to join and resign in one turn without trace to the other players, this would allow a deep look into an opponents turn... (The game history will prevent this in the future unless a new alternate account is created: http://vgaplanets.nu/discussion/player-join-message-game-history)

2998 days, 4 hours, 44 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I got to also ask for another feature. If you are going to make changes them lets make it clearer who has formed alliances. Now you have to read the diplomatic message for the turn the full alliance happens. after that if you miss it there is no way to tell two races have a full alliance unless you go back through time machine and review every turns diplomacy messages.

If there is a public message sent when any full alliance is formed then it should be so noted on the diplomacy screen. I am talking about the screen you open to show all 10 other races and there statis.

Now I can deal with the current system, but new players are going to have know ideal what is going on. In games I am in if I am messageing back and forth with a race and I know they are inexperianced I will say did you see that so and so have a full alliance now. The response is always NO how do you know.

2998 days, 4 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I agree Donald, theres already a reasonable discusisonon this on the other thred beloow http://vgaplanets.nu/discussion/player-join-message-game-history

Same idea being discussed as a feature to help players see the state of play especially if they join mid game.

2996 days, 10 hours, 7 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Thanks for all the feedback guys. We're testing the new version today on Rebirth 1. We're essentially using the design that James presented, except without the checkboxes. We'd like to keep diplomacy relatively simple, so its all or nothing with those three levels.

So the three levels are now, Safe Passage, Share Intelligence and Full Alliance. The only exceptions to James list is that Safe passage still functions the same (providing location of your minefields), and ship friendly codes are never visible due to the secretive nature of ship captains. (Planet friendly codes are visible in a full alliance)

All existing alliances will be converted into Share Intelligence alliances and you will need to upgrade your alliance level to full alliance if you want.

This will all be put in a site-wide post when it goes live for everyone.

2996 days, 10 hours, 5 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

What level of alliance will be needed in order to warn all the players?

By the way, Thanks!! Is a great improvement ;D

2996 days, 9 hours, 13 minutes ago

james t. plagerism

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I assume it will be:

* Safe Passage (old) => Safe Passage (new) [no public announcement]
* Full Alliance (old) => Shared Intelligence (new) [public announcement]
* (old) => Full Alliance (new) [public announcement]

BTW: Thanks Joshua! This is exciting stuff :)

2996 days, 8 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Are the new diplomacy settings only meant to be in only Rebirth 1 at the moment for testing? The reason is that the new diplomacy settings are also showing in Beta 3.

2996 days, 8 hours, 36 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Testing period is over :P

I'm kidding. I sent some of my allies the new full alliance... we'll see how it goes.

2996 days, 8 hours, 28 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

The client side changes have been released, but the host changes only affected Rebirth 1 today (so the actual information passing). Undoing the information exchange is nearly impossible so we didn't want to mess up lots of games if there was a problem. It seems to have gone quite well anyway, just a couple of very tiny things and then we will release it for everyone.

2996 days, 8 hours, 27 minutes ago

james t. plagerism

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

It looks like they're probably showing up in all games now.

One request: please change the small icon for the Intel alliance.

2996 days, 8 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

That's the reason for the host delay? My games are over an hour late right now

2996 days, 8 hours, 26 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Actually I was planning on public announcement only for full alliance. Also the max allies only applies to full alliance since that is the only one that affects the victory conditions.

2995 days, 15 hours, 4 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

>> * (old) => Full Alliance (new) [public announcement]

Only If you got those embassidors shared.
Threaties have made in world wars I/II, that some where public and some were secret ;)

Now ppls play as long as possible as regual players, sharing information, but dont put alliance on!
Like old times.
You dont wanna others know who you are allied with. Cos that put target on your back.

I can play entire game without give away my allies from scoreboard or diplomacy screen.
Little hint, dont use Kill mission, or plantetary NUK code.

2995 days, 14 hours, 55 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Everybody will use the level 2 alliance, It shares all the needed information (ships, planets and enemy minefields) and you don't warn other players about the alliance. You'll only need the level 3 alliance in order to wait the 5 turns to win the game.

Are you sure about that joshua?

Nitemare

2995 days, 14 hours, 41 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I don't like public announcements. treaties are a very delicate thing.
maybe that's something for the end-game then... when it is obvious anyway..

2995 days, 13 hours, 50 minutes ago

james t. plagerism

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I also don't like the public announcements. But that won't stop me from using the level-3 alliances, I far far prefer the greater level of information sharing for within a true alliance.

Incidentally, I noticed in one game that a level-3 alliance did correctly show the ship data (cargo, engines, weapons) but did not relay any details about allied planets. I assume this is still a work-in-progress?

2992 days, 16 hours, 45 minutes ago

james t. plagerism

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Any ETA on when to expect a wide release of the sharing of allied planet data?

2992 days, 16 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

So i have to tell all my planets and my whole fleet to someone, if i wanna see enemy ships/planets?
Meh, would love something between Safe Passage and Basic Alliance. Something where you don't have to show your data.
Sometimes you wanna fight with someone together, but you don't want that he knows so much about your empire. Who knows what will happen after the conflict.

2992 days, 16 hours, 20 minutes ago

james t. plagerism

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Which is why I suggested the 10-checkbox method above, then you could customize what you want. But for preset alliance levels, I think the 3 we have is already enough -- if you start adding more than that you may as well go to the full customizable checkbox style, which Joshua said he doesn't want to tackle right now (but we always have hope for later, right? :)

If you don't trust your "ally", stick with Safe Passage. But I agree it would be useful if the Safe Passage level did show scanned enemy ships/planets/minefields; I don't see any reason not to share that info?

2992 days, 15 hours, 33 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I am in favor of sharing all details of your alliance when you have full alliance except messages to and from other races. You may have a NAP with another race and they may not feel your ally is privy to any information that they share with you.

2988 days, 9 hours, 7 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

It seems at bit odd that my allies shares my data with others and visa vers. In one game I am allied with the Borgs, who have intel sharing with the Robots, and as a result I see all Robots information (and they see mine).

This must be a bug?!?

2988 days, 8 hours, 56 minutes ago

james t. plagerism

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Yes, that is a bug, first reported by nitemare here:
http://vgaplanets.nu/post/new-diplomacy-options

2988 days, 8 hours, 4 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

This is resolved as of this morning (but data sent can not be undone).

Now you do not share any information for ships and planets which are owned by players you are allied (or share intel) with.

Note: if they share with you, but you do not share with them, then you will share their data with someone else. Try to get your heads around that... ;)

I'm debating if the share intel alliance should only include scanned enemy ships, planets and minefields instead of any info from yourself.

2988 days, 7 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

i believe, shared data should only include own and enemy info.
third party friendly info is up to another alliance then..

for example: i have two allies, with which i share data. if ally 1 wants to see the data of ally 2 then both must make an alliance. otherwise they are treated like enemies (which they can be) and only receive enemy data from your side. it's as easy as this.

2988 days, 6 hours, 48 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

I agree with thin lizzy. No transitivity here...

2988 days, 6 hours, 41 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Yes, the transitivity is already resolved.

2988 days, 6 hours, 18 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

oh, i got it wrong...

but why then the open info to all allies, if someone presses the alliance button one turn before the other player?

.. intel.. how about enemy info and friendly info about ships and planets within sensor range?
then you can start combined attacks, but don't have to undress your whole empire.
a local alliance, so to say..

2988 days, 5 hours, 52 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

Hmm, i see a trend here i think xD
Many cloakers wanna share enemy info, but not their hidden planets and fleet movement xd

2988 days, 5 hours, 11 minutes ago

RE: Design Discussion - Full Alliances - All Data?

^^ yeah, cloaking has become more expensive.. so you have to know where to go..

with friendly info i meant where and what my ships are, and where my planets are