Economics 101 for Beginners

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

NEW LIVE PRIVATE TUTORIAL! ANY VGA Planets BEGINNER is welcome to JOIN!

For those of you that have only recently discovered our game VGA Planets -- welcome! You no doubt may have already found that VGA Planets is a pretty difficult game to learn the many intricacies. But hopefully you are also finding that it is a very fun game to play as well. If you like to play games with deep-seeded military, economic, and diplomatic strategy all involved to do well, then you have found a place here at Nu Planets that you may be calling home for many years to come.

But wait! Now that you have started a few games, you are realizing that many players are getting a better start than you are. And you are realizing that no matter how good you are at the military portion of the game, if another player has more ships than you with greater firepower, it is going to be difficult for you to win. So this private instruction "LIVE" tutorial game is going to focus solely on the initial few (first seven) turns of the game. How you start does play a big role in how you may finish. The first few turns are actually some of my most fun turns to play.

There will be no warfare allowed in this tutorial. Everyone must Full Ally with everyone else on the first turn. That way you can watch what I am doing and get a feel on how others start a game. You will also see what kind of conditions you might face when you start a game (sometimes much better than other times). I will be watching everyone's progress. Importantly, even though no warfare is allowed during this tutorial, you will need to be playing the start as though there WOULD be warfare on Turn 10. You need to have started your preparations for a surprise attack against you by the Lizards/Birdmen/Fascists - pretending they are your neighbor and they are ignoring all of your messages. So if you are only building freighters and you do not have any webmines by turn 7 then I will NOT consider that a good start for you, even if your planets are thriving. So by turn 7 you need to both have a thriving economy and be prepared to defend yourself for war beginning on turn 10. Can you do it?

I may make a few comments during this seven-turn tutorial - both public comments and private comments. Once the seven turns are complete in one week and the tutorial is officially over -- I will definitely make public comments here on the forum about what players did well (that others can look back and perhaps emulate in their future games). If you want additional feedback, then once the tutorial is over, I will also ask you to also post here on the forum what you were thinking during the first seven turns and what your plans were for development over the next 5-10 turns as you were being attacked by your despicable, ruthless, cutthroat neighbor.

Everyone will be playing the Crystal Race in this live tutorial -- one of the most fun Races to play in VGA Planets :). But some of the lessons you will hopefully learn as you play this tutorial will be applicable when you play any other Races as well. Getting a good start is critical no matter what Race you play.

So if you are new to VGA Planets starting in 2012 -- please feel free to JOIN and let your learning (and fun) begin!

2642 days, 0 hours, 9 minutes ago

b a n e

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Observing.

2641 days, 8 hours, 5 minutes ago

metadan

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

You're a great man, bondservant.

2640 days, 22 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Crickets ..

.. perhaps our new players here at Nu have already mastered the early game of VGAP ...

2640 days, 21 hours, 20 minutes ago

raw

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

An extraordinarily generous offer, well thought out and well written. However, having anyone and everyone looking over my shoulder while I make mistakes is not my idea of fun. Also it would make me feel too much like I was back in class... For my part, I would *love to read* about your starting techniques, alternatives, and plan alterations due to various conditions / nearby enemies. Put something in the strategy guides section. I am sure I will need to use it against you someday! ;)

2640 days, 20 hours, 45 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Thanks raw for your thoughts .. maybe others feel the same way as you. I will keep this tutorial game open a few more days to allow time for other new players to check the forum and see this opportunity.

2639 days, 23 hours, 38 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Welcome CptSpiff!

Let's see if any other new players join this galaxy. But if not, then if I figure out how to do it, I will still be happy to run through the first seven turns with just you and offer whatever advice I can regarding your initial moves. Meanwhile, are you familiar with the website www.donovansvgap.com ? You can find some good guides there on economics and you might want to read them to pick up some good tips.

2639 days, 23 hours, 4 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Hi Bond

Thanks. I'm relaxed with however you want to work it.

With regards to my first turn, I was going to do something which may be slightly unorthodox, so I thought I'd run it past you first. I don't want to screw myself over on the first turn.

My HW is P388 and has a nice little cluster of planets nearby to it. So what I was thinking is I would get an cheap opal this turn (W7 eng, mk4 tube) and a then a LDSF next turn. The idea being that A) I am less likely to stall my home planet early and B) the opal can scout out the planets in the cluster and drop money off while the LDSF drops clans and supplies.

My alternative plan would just be to get a LDSF this turn.

What do you think?

2639 days, 22 hours, 32 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

cpt you are premium member. Never, except for 10 engines ship, put anything else than transwarps in your ships. By the way I don't know why you thing that building an opal in an unorthodox movement... ;D

I'm looking forward to see what do I do different that bond in my first stage of the game.

Regards,

Nite

2639 days, 19 hours, 36 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Hi cptspiff,

Good to hear from you. You are thinking ahead - which is good to do. Critical in fact if your goal is to win.

Nice is an understatement. I love your HW position. Too bad this is not a real game for you.

Since the first turn has not run yet and we are not yet Full Allys, we can not yet communicate in-game. So I will write out my initial thoughts for you here on the forum. Plus others that might join this game could benefit from the same advice.

The first thing you might want to do in a new game is make a plan for the first five turns assuming you had to decide now, not later, what you were going to do for the first five turns and pretending you would have to stick to your plan. Of course, your plan will be much more flexible depending on what planets you find and interaction with your neighbors. But doing this will give you the strategic discipline you will need as you learn more about what is around you.

Here is what I did after seeing your note -- I opened the starmap, changed the map to 50%, hit "connections" to see the planet clusters, and then did a HYP circle around 388. Often (not always), your next-door neighboring Race HW will be somewhere just beyond the HYP circle. So I estimated that one HW will be at/near 460 and another at/near 481. So doing all of this right away helped me figure out where I would try to initially settle if I were you and when I would head that way. If you do what I just did, you will see that there are the following planet clusters (I recommend you think in terms of clusters when you setup your initial strategy).

(1) Home cluster of 5/12-N/S .. which means it is a 17 planet cluster that could be divided into 5 planets in the north and 12 planets in the south

(2) Western cluster of 14 planets

(3) Eastern cluster of 5 planets

(4) Southern cluster of 11/13-N/S

Take a look at the map and see what I am talking about. Once I did this, I roughly figured out what clusters I might be able to easily settle and which ones would likely be contested. And then I figured out what I would build the first few turns if I were you and where I would send each ship. I recommend that you do the same -- come up with a plan now on what you might build over the next few turns and where you would send those ships. It may or may not be what I would do. Each person has their own style so there is rarely just one "right" thing to do (although there are many wrong things to do). And each turn you have to change your plan, based on new information. But having an initial build and colonization plan from turn one (that is flexible) is highly recommended.

nitemare is right -- at this stage you want to build ships with W9 engines. So your alternate plan to build an LDSF with W9 engines is a good one. But go ahead and think about what your first few ship builds might be (not just your first two) and where you might send them.

FYI -- my HW is 265. Do you like your HW location better or would you prefer mine? :) Try the same mapping method I described above to help you determine your preference.

2639 days, 12 hours, 10 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Hi R2D2. Remember to Full Ally with me and others. And I will be watching you - and sending you an in-game message with my thoughts as you play your seven turns.

2639 days, 12 hours, 3 minutes ago

vepr

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

nice guide bondservant. you should keep posting out in the open so that all may benefit, not just those that join your game. i like your method of estimating enemy HW positions. how has it been working out for you so far given nu's placement algorithm?

2639 days, 0 hours, 39 minutes ago

b a n e

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Is home world placement in NU long range circle as a default?

2638 days, 22 hours, 10 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Yeah... Bondservant, your starting position is pretty terrible.

So, a quick analysis:

1) Home Cluster of 3/2-N/S

2) Southern cluster of 3/5-W/E

3) North East "Cluster" of 3 planets

4) Western Cluster of 16/16-W/E

with probable enemy HW around P12 and P296. So each one of them has a very nice cluster. So they'll probably be able to decide whether they want to attack you early or focus on expansion, where as you won't really have that option (I am assuming you'd have a weaker starting economy, player ability being equal, due to the Home clusters). The player to your North may be more interested in taking his entire cluster and pushing off whoever else might be in there, which may give you some bargaining chips.

Would take my starting position over yours in a heart beat.

And now my new 5 turn plan for my start(sorry if this getting a little detailed):
Turn 1: Send the MDSF into the Northern part of my home cluster and build a LDSF to colonise the Southern portion.
Turn 2: Build a Ruby with plasma bolts, mk4 torps and 50 torpedoes to sneak across to the Western cluster (hopefully before the enemy that side is within LoS) and try and establish a foot hold.
Turn 3: BUild anotehr LDSF to follow after the MDSF.
Turn 4: Build an opal with 0 torps to scout out the Eastern cluster and determine whether its worth an early expansion.
Turn 5: Build another Ruby with 50 torpedoes to either halt enemy expansion in the southern cluster or else help in claiming the Western cluster. Which ever is needed.

This should leave my Home World with approximately 810 mc/supplies, 145 Duranium, 660 Tritanium and 1200 Molybdenum. I have 250 mines, max factories and didn't build any extra defense. Taxed at 20% for 3 turns, then 0% and then 17%. I didn't take into account changes in population at my Home World. Accounted for taking 1400 supplies/mc off with ruby's and LDSF for expansion.

2638 days, 22 hours, 6 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Forgot about the 125 I am taking off with my MDSF, so 685 mc/supplies on my Homeworld for turn 6...

2638 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Thanks for the invite and offer to help! I can definitely use it.

Cheers

hawtsoop

2638 days, 1 hours, 40 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Alright so I'm pretty new, but I'll post the basics of my "plan" for the first few turns as well:

HW is ID#73 situated in the center of a string cluster of ~13 planets running basically from wsw to ene.

There is a close cluster of 5 planets south of the line in the central part of my HYP circle's southern hemisphere.

There is a semi distant cluster of 5 planets to the north near the edge of the HYP.

To the East there is a distinct line / border cluster on the edge of the HYP line ~12 planets running north to south

To the west there is another border cluster of 14 planets (5 more north and the rest grouped more south).

I'd guesstimate enemy homeworlds ESE of my HW near ID#458 and another to the NNW near ID# 383

Based on the density of the planets in my HYP and the potential HYP circles of the guesstimated enemy homeworlds, the 6 planet cluster around ID# 391 could be hotly contested by the Southeast enemy. If that enemy's homeworld is farther south around the rim of my HYP circle it could pull the cluster around ID# 165 into contention early as well.

To the North or NorthWest the best clusters appear to all swing farther North of my HYP circle, though the cluster around ID# 328 could be tempting.

I think this means that the most threatening of my neighbors will likely come from the South and/or East so my initial strategy will be to establish colonies in the HW while shoving defensive/scout forces quickly towards the south and east. The slightly longer distances between worlds to the north make that a more difficult approach for an enemy and I should be able to deal with that somewhat later.

Since I'll need to be producing torpedoes early and often to keep a defense of the home cluster functional, I plan to start by maxing factories and mines. I typically raise taxes only to 9%, or the last point which avoids reducing happiness whichever is greater. At the starbase I'll max Engine tech, raise hull tech to 6, beam tech to 6 and torp tech to 5. Those levels provide ships with good capabilities and weapons that are powerful but still cheap enough to afford early on. I will expand first to the north east in the local HW cluster.

I'll open construction with an Opal with TW eng, Heavy Blaster and Mark 4 torp. Building the torps for it now makes sense so I can drop a mine field quickly if necessary early on. Turn 2 construction will be an LDSF (assume TW eng unless otherwise noted). Turn 3 will be a second LDSF. Turn 4 will be a Ruby Class with heavy Blasters and Mark 4's, turn 5 will be a 2nd Ruby same config.

The initial colonization efforts as mentioned will focus on the HW cluster heading north and east. The Opal will scout the edges and try to get into position to watch the south and east approaches. The Ruby's will bring web mine fields to the crucial points of the potentially contested clusters which I expect will be to the south east or just south and possibly one to the north.

That's what I have got so far, what do you think? What should I do differently or more specifically?

Cheers,

hawtsoop

2638 days, 1 hours, 13 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

I will "START" our tutorial game this weekend -- even though I do not expect a full slate of players. Since there is just seven turns and no combat, it does not matter how many actual players are in the galaxy.

Welcome hawtsoop -- I will take a look at your situation and your plans and report back here on my initial thoughts. I can see you did some nice thinking about some key considerations, which is great.

cptspiff, I like a lot of what you are planning. Let's see it how it goes; I see there are a few things that I will point out at the appropriate time. But your plan is solid. While having a plan as good as yours is important, now the key will be to be flexible and tweek your plan each turn - depending on what you find out about your planets (and normally about your neighbors).

Bond

2637 days, 16 hours, 59 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

hawtsoop, good job in conveying your thoughts and intial plans. Here are some considerations.

Being able to move without other Races seeing you is very important. So I would describe your home cluster a little different. I would call it a 29/18 SW/NE planet cluster or if you wanted to get more detailed then an 18/3/6/2/8/10 cluster. But if I were you I would have my eyes on the 29 planets in the cluster that are closest to your HW -- especially the 18 to the SW.

I agree with your assessment of your nearby clusters and their locations. To your NW is a 5-planet cluster that your NW neighbor may also want. To your SW is a 12-planet cluster that you may be able to settle before all others. To your SW is a 46-planet cluster that your SW neighbor is thinking will be all his. Finally, in the center north of you is a 20-planet cluster that you may be slightly closer to than most Races, but it will likely be settled by the HYP Borg or HYP Rebels. You might be right on the locations of your neighbors' HWs, but I would have guessed at 455 and 404. Will be interesting to see which one of us is closer in our guess :).

In general I think your plan is a very good one - knowing you will need to be flexible. With such a rich home cluster, you have a very good chance to get an excellent economy going right away within the 18 planets on the SW side of your home cluster. As Crystals, your two early concerns is finding a nice planet with natives to get lots of MCs back to your HW and to find a planet that can get you lots of duranium early on. You will want/need MCs flowing very soon back to your HW. And while your good Crystal ships require a large number of Moly, your HW will produce the Moly you need, but it won't have the Duranium you need if you are going to build Disrupters and/or Heavy Blasters. So I recommend you start off with an LDSF on turns 2 and then another one on turn 3 or 4 and skip building an Opal. Your thinking of building Rubys early on is also good. The Ruby may be the best value colonizing ship in VGAP - so perfect for early turns. And having the first Ruby go to the cluster SE of you is a good idea -- because if you don't establish yourself there right away then your SE neighbor will claim it all for them. And going sooner vs. later to the clusters to your NW and SE is also good.

Bond

2637 days, 16 hours, 44 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Thanks for setting this up and the invite, bondservant. I'm already learning just reading along here. :)

2637 days, 15 hours, 14 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

I think we are close on where the neighboring HW's will be, either way the strategic position in the North remains largely the same, that cluster to the north is going to be outside of one turn to reach, unless its the privateers.

The south or South East is a major problem because its a very rich little cluster of a couple dozen planets so seeding the area and keeping a decent military presence there early will be important, hence the early construction of Ruby's. Switching the position of the first LDSF into turn one and holding off for a turn or so on warship construction makes sense as well. It seems a delicate balance in this scenario as I'll want a mine ship ready soon to guard the edges of my HW cluster.

As I said I am very new to this, though I used to play planets back in the late 90's with a few friends. Typically I have employed MDSF's to establish small colonies and LDSF's to supply more colonists to the "good" worlds and transport minerals and cash back to HW. When usinf LDSF's for initial colonizing should I be thinking in terms of dropping one larger colony or seeding a few smaller ones?

Thanks again for taking the time to do this and for talking it all out. I have always wanted to be able to play the Crystal's effectively and have always found them very challenging!

Cheers,

hawtsoop

2637 days, 13 hours, 15 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

tdcc, welcome!

hawtsoop - you will find many of us here played in the 90s, stopped, and then thanks to Nu Planets started playing again. After I joined Nu, I started reading the Guides to remember how to play since I had forgotten most of what I once knew. I even learned some good stuff from my own Guides :). And a few Commanders made sure I learned some tricks the hard way.

Some galaxy setups require a strategy for more early-on building of Opals, MDSFs, or Rubys. But I find that when you are in multi-planet clusters like most Commanders are now (including you in this galaxy), you can develop a couple turns faster with LDSFs or if you are going to race to an area that will be contested, then even build an Emerald first and then two LDSFs. Especially if you get a little lucky and find a nice planet right away. When I find a nice native planet right off the bat, this allows me to switch to building Emeralds immediately. One game I found an 8 million Insectoid Unity planet right next to my HW -- allowing me to bang out 2 LDSFs and 4 Emeralds as the first six builds at my HW. I ended up needing all those Emeralds I built early-on, because a Birdmen surprise attacked me in that game and soon thereafter his close friend playing the Lizards joined him in their attack against me.

Regarding how to colonize (100-200 colonists on several worlds or 500+ colonists on one-two worlds), that all depends on what you find. Like mentioned in my prior post, the two things I look for as a Crystal are planets that can provide my HW with lots of MCs and/or duranium. This allows me to continue to build nice Ruby/Emerald ships continuously the first 10-15 turns. I also start looking for my second HW. By turn 7, I hope to find where my second HW will be and I will have started shuttling MCs/duranium back to my HW. So -- the answer is: it depends.

But one thing I have become convinced -- how well you do in your first 10-20 turns will make a huge impact on how well you end up in a galaxy.

FYI -- here is my general Guide on how fast you might plan to develop throughout your game:

http://planets.nu/discussion/nu-planets-turn-progress-guide

2637 days, 12 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Thanks!

I will read the guide. I was so happy to find Nu, its great to play and on a scale that we never achieved with so many games available and different players. It is pretty awesome to get a helping hand from a more experienced player.

Cheers,

hawtsoop

2636 days, 16 hours, 20 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Game has started. New players have less than 24 hours to join before the first turn runs.

2635 days, 17 hours, 29 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Nice start for everyone. hawtsoop wins the Turn 2 "Call Me Lucky" prize for finding the nicest planet right away. You know you are lucky when you find a planet immediately that will give you lots of the two items your HW will need first the most (MCs & DUR). But everyone has at least three more uncharted planets connected to their HW, so we probably should not give him the title of being the Most Lucky right away. Longer-term, cptspiff's planet might be the best. tdcc's planet is the only planet that will not help him right away; but any planet that will give a Crystal player lots of Moly long-term is still a good one.

Make no mistake -- luck plays a role in your VGA Planets universe. Sure - eventually what is important is what you make of your luck. But you still like to see lots of the precious Lady when you first start out in a new galaxy. You want Lady Luck to be your best friend. And right now, she seems to have her eye on hawtsoop! And it looks like he built the right ship for a follow-up visit to her right away.

hawtsoop = SUPER Nice (MCs+, DUR+)
19: Planet 1801
Temp: 74
Neutronium:    100/1631 (28%)
Duranium:    119/1313 (67%)
Tritanium:    29/474 (18%)
Molybdenum:    57/638 (68%)
Native Race:    Reptilian
Government:    Unity
Population:    4,185,800

verant_knight = Very Nice (MCs+, Trit.)
324: Sigma 1212
Temp: 48
Neutronium:    13/1090 (25%)
Duranium:    177/112 (52%)
Tritanium:    5/4462 (61%)
Molybdenum:    96/883 (27%)
Native Race:    Amphibian
Government:    Participatory
Population:    5,689,500

cptspiff = Very Nice (MCs, DUR+, Trit, Moly)
81: Upikarium
Temp: 49
Neutronium:    148/542 (79%)
Duranium:    14/3393 (81%)
Tritanium:    69/1519 (88%)
Molybdenum:    31/2638 (14%)
Native Race:    Siliconoid
Government:    Feudal
Population:    4,115,800

r2d2 = Very Nice (MCs, DUR, Neut)
83: Ceti Alpha 5
Temp: 81
Neutronium:    68/6651 (98%)
Duranium:    158/1635 (58%)
Tritanium:    143/328 (98%)
Molybdenum:    147/212 (36%)
Native Race:    Amphibian
Government:    Monarchy
Population:    3,904,000

tdcc = Nice (Moly+)
344: Arkto
Temp: 73
Neutronium:    127/149 (98%)
Duranium:    28/1165 (12%)
Tritanium:    117    /242 (39%)
Molybdenum:    19/3654 (39%)
Native Race:    None

2635 days, 13 hours, 30 minutes ago

verant_knight

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Hello all, Sorry I've been quiet so far. Busy in RL and all that.

I have a pretty decent starting position. Edge of a tight 20 planet cluster that connects to an intermediate cluster and then to another larger cluster which I was assuming (and now know) houses another player.

Probably the only thing that could improve my initial location right now is to be deeper in the cluster, but what I have is pretty sweet so I'll take it. 5 planets in one hop, an additional 8 within two.

My queue right now is to start with a Ruby and get some mines up 5-6 turns out into the choke point connecting my cluster to the connected clusters at #396/242. Sent 50 torps out. Would do more, but with so many planets so close I don't want to hinder development early. I plan to follow with two LDSF right away to push some clans out to that nice Amphibian planet and the others to the NE. If I can afford it I'll go with an emerald third and get it into that cluster that will be contested. Otherwise I'll go with a couple opals to boost exploration within the cluster and start moving the hopeful oodles of $$$ back to HW to get hauled out as torps.

I'll keep an eye on the west, but I don't want to cross the gap too early and show myself. In a regular game, if I made solid contact to the East and then had a HYP come in I'd push the gap, figuring I'm blown and try to get a headland across the gap. Otherwise, I'll play it quiet and keep some strong defense at home or have a layer set to drop a field to hit anyone crossing the gap the other way.

Biggest push will be East and South.

2635 days, 0 hours, 46 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

This is probably a total noob question... but why can I see Sigma 1212?

2635 days, 0 hours, 32 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

It's a known bug. You are allied with bond and he is allied with all the other players. He is giving you information of all he knows but he is not giving you information about the planets and ships of his other allies, but every time one of his allies visit an unkown planet you can see that planet since it is still unknown.

Edit: That assuming that you are not speaking about the hw of bondservant.

2635 days, 0 hours, 25 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Ahhh... So that's another player who I am not allied with.

2635 days, 0 hours, 4 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

nitemare, it looks like we won't be filling up here, so feel free to join the game so that you can see what everyone is doing in case you want to offer more advice during/after the game. Just be warned that you could be training the Commander that could be knocking you off the pedestal after you become Emperor :).

Bond

2634 days, 23 hours, 2 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

verant_knight,

Yes, you knew that there would be another player to your SE sharing that wonderful cluster you are in (now confirmed that there is). So I agree with you that your top priority is heading straight there with your Ruby to the choke point and beyond. That player will need to either be your future ally or enemy, probably sooner vs. later. It is very nice to share a huge cluster with an ally, so you want to definitely explore that possibility in a real game, but otherwise you have to be prepared to defend it.

You say "if I can afford it" you will build an Emerald -- since you plan to send an LDSF full of colonists to the Amphibian planet, you should be able to afford it. Finding that nice supply of MCs right off the bat is fantastic for you. You should not have to "settle" for Opals now, especially if you can find a nice source of duranium next to your HW too. Opal Hull = 60 MCs and Ruby Hull = 95 MCs (and 2 engines instead of 1). Early on at your HW, then you have the MCs/resources, then spending +400 MCs for a Ruby is normally the best choice for the Crystal.

Ruby with W9/Disrupters/Mk4 = 787 MCs
Opal with W9/Disrupter/Mk4 = 393 MCs

Now later with your second/third starbase, building Opals could make sense -- they are great for laying small web minefields and they take less fuel to move, especially if you need to move them higher than their tech engines (moving at W7 or W8 with W6 engines). I even use them to transport MCs at times.

Tough decision about the three clusters to your W/SW/S -- they are going to be roughly equidistant for you and your neighbor to get to and colonize. I would consider sending a Ruby earlier vs. later to all three. Not right away, perhaps, but not wait too long. Otherwise, your neighbor will be claiming those clusters all for himself and they are all too close for comfort for you. And if a Borg settles there nicely in one of those clusters before you get there -- it will take a huge effort to get him out later if he build up enough to build a starbase and then a Firecloud. You will just have to disguise a little your trip there.

Advice to all when playing Crystals -- you will likely be spewing webmines sooner vs. later. So your neighbor will know your general location at that time. So revealing yourself with a ship out in the open a couple of turns earlier than that is not all bad if it allows you to travel to a key cluster. As a Crystal, you can defend yourself from early attack as well or better than the other Races. You don't want to fight (because you want to set up a thriving economy quickly) - but you can. And more often than not, it pays dividends in diplomacy -- once your neighbor sees you they often start communications with you. They usually do not want to fight you either. Specifically for you knight -- you are going to want to figure out fast which of your neighbors you may want to work with, so it is something to consider.

Bond

2634 days, 22 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Ok, I'm in. My home location is #32 with 30 planets interconnected in my home cluster.

I'm gonna do things a little different. I usually build an opal with mk4 and xray lasers like my first ship and a LSDF after it. Why? Because that way I have 3 planets to send my LSDF full loaded with clans and I can choose the better one to take better advantage of them and because the opal is gonna be my first scout and maybe it will be able to capture some ships. With luck a jumper.

I'm gonna load the MDSF with 150 clans 50 supplies and 300 mc and taxing my HW with 28% to reduce their happiness in 15% for two turns before stopping taxing them. I'm gonna max my factories and put my mines to 300 and my defense post to 21 to gain an extra fighter.

My techs are gonna be different too. I'm gonna put them at 6/10/1/7. Why? Because my initial ships are going to be used like freighters but I want them to be useful in the long run and I want them to be efficient using my best weapon like crystalline, web mines. So I'm gonna be building my initial emeralds and ruby's with transwarp (always), xraylasers and just 1 tube of mk7. After I have enough mc I will upgrade my tech to 6/10/5/7 and building my emeralds fully armed.

I have some small cluster near that I know they will be my contested area but I don't want to show me up so early. So I'll start colonizing my planets in my hw, ensuring that no jumper appears to capture my planets, till I have my economy running and I can afford building some massive amount of mines in case I'll need too.

I'll change the fc of my freighters and the best planets I'll find to HYP in order to protect them from incoming jumpers with kill mission.

After I build my opal and my LSDF I'll decide how to continue for now I'll send my MSDF to the best interconnect planet I have around me.

Edit: I'm putting too only xray lasers just to ensure I won't run out of duranium before I find a good reserve of it nearly.

2634 days, 22 hours, 10 minutes ago

daniel payne

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

@the comments by verant knight:

Bondservant, I have not played the Crystals in a very long time. But I had always figured that the next time I played them, I would be willing to expand rapidly. What loon would be anxious to lob a low tech ship into a potential web field with no infrastructure to help?

Can you comment on that?

2634 days, 22 hours, 10 minutes ago

daniel payne

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Argh

2634 days, 19 hours, 59 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Mmm, sorry my techs are 6/10/1/8... I wrote while I was still a bit asleep... so asleep that I finally build the lsdf and not my usual opal. :P

2632 days, 0 hours, 28 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

I forgot to stop taxing my Home World and I forgot to load my first Ruby with mines. So I have extra cash than in my 5 turn plan, so I'm building an extra Ruby instead of my Opal

2631 days, 18 hours, 25 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

I am getting questions from a few of you regarding the best way to tax colonists and tax natives. This is an important issue no matter what Race you play and there are a lot of good advice on these Nu forums and good Guides on Donovan's that talk about this, because it is an important subject. Here are some thoughts.

All game long it is an issue of balance -- the higher the taxation the more MCs for you, and yet the lower the taxation then the higher rate of growth for your colonists and natives. You need the taxation to build stuff. You need more colonists/natives so you can settle them on lots of planets and because it will allow you to collect more taxes from them.

You can divide your VGAP game up into three phases -- early, mid and late game. The first 22-30 turns is the early game -- the part of the game prior to the 500-max ship limit where your starbase is able to build each turn. And you DO want your HW to build every turn, especially as Crystals where you have some nice low-cost ships like the Opal and Ruby. During the early game, especially as a Crystal, you want to focus on taxation for max MCs more than colonist/native growth.

As you tax, one of the key things you want to examine is not the tax rate but the clan/native Happiness level. Your clans/natives will grow as long as their Happiness is at 70% or higher after you tax them. And you can see how their happiness increases or decreases depending on your tax rate.

During my first turn, knowing I would need as much MCs as possible, I taxed my colonists at the maximum possible and still stayed at 70% happiness. On Turn 1 my Colonist taxation tab looked like this:
Colony Tax Rates
Colonist tax rate: 46%
Hate your taxing! (-30 to happiness)
Happiness: 100
Income: 1200 megacredits

And then for a couple turns I did not tax at my HW. Until I knew I would want more MCs, so on Turn 4 I taxed again:
Colony Tax Rates
Colonist tax rate: 23%
Hate your taxing! (-11 to happiness)
Happiness: 82
Income: 606 megacredits

Optimally, I would have waited six turns until the colonists Happiness was at 100 rather than just 82 to tax them again; my HW clan happiness grows at 6% per turn since I open the game increasing my HW Mines to 340 and HW Factories to 240. Until I build a Merlin, I am using my supplies to convert to MCs to build the better ships. And fyi I build the higher # of mines so that I have the duranium I need (and neutronium) early on to build the better ships and to move them where they need to go. In this galaxy I needed MCs to be sure I was building a nice ship each turn and I did not find a nice MC-generating planet right away.

One of your key early goals is to find a nice MC-generating planet with natives near your HW so that your taxation at your HW is infrequent (once per six turns), allowing the clans to build at your HW. Note that with the latest NU HW and map generation, there is a greater chance that you will have one or more nice native planets near your HW -- so that can be factored into your taxation strategy.

During the early game, I do not tax my colonists that I put on other non-HW worlds at all. For them, it is all about maximum colonist growth.

Regarding how to tax natives, early on I usually do the same thing -- tax natives the most possible until the natives' Happiness is at 70%. But the limit of taxation could initially be the # of clans you have on the planet, so if you find a good native planet, be sure you are able to soon drop enough clans on the planet to tax them at a high level at least every other turn. I often like to have enough clans on planets with natives so that the Happiness declines by 5% per turn for 6 turns (to 70% happiness) -- this gives me nice # of MCs for six turns to return to my HW and build better ships.

In summary, there are many factors (even more factors than described here) that determine your taxation plan and each galaxy will be different. There is a balance to tax high for maximum MCs and tax low for maximum clan/native happiness. Your early-game taxation strategy is affected by how lucky you are at getting a great MC-producing planet near your HW. But you want to keep in mind that you want your colonists and your natives to grow too. Once the ship limit hits, clan growth becomes an even higher priority -- allowing you to have a much more prosperous end game.

@DP - these players will be playing other new players, and all newbies are potential loons? Also, I find that even the good veterans often underestimate their chance of getting stuck in a web and never being able to get out. Keep in mind that for the most part -- over 90% of the ships built during the first 10-20 turns have low-tech beams. So sometimes what you will see is that a ship (perhaps equipped with Disrupters) moves in to minesweep a small webmine and then once they are close enough to do that, the Crystal player greatly expands the webmine and perhaps even lays an overlapping webmine; then the ship can never get out - eventually running out of fuel. With all that said, the webs are also spun for the purpose of being a strong message for your neighbor to stay away. During diplomacy, one web can speak a thousand words.

2630 days, 23 hours, 3 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Turn 7 .. last turn!

Once turn 7 runs Host, I will end the game. And then everyone will be able to view everyone else's planets/ships -- including those owned by nitemare and myself. In addition, I will be able to look turn by turn at what each of you did. And then give comments to you on those actions that were (or should have been) good and actions that you might consider doing differently in the future. Nitemare may be making some of his own observations as well.

Besides completing your seventh final turn, two other things you may wish to do:

1) write here on the forum what you were thinking and what you planned to be doing beyond the seventh turn -- no need to include information that you have already stated above. If you do this, then I will incorporate your thoughts into my feedback comments.

2) let me know if you prefer that I only send my comments to you privately; otherwise, I will post them on this forum thread so others could also learn and also there may be some good comments from others that could differ from my feedback. FYI - if you choose to get your comments only privately, then I will do my study of your turns after I publish the public comments.

Bond

2630 days, 7 hours, 0 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Thanks again for doing this, bondservant.

My initial plan was to quickly claim the four planet cluster to the west of my home world, and build it up to provide resources back to my HW, while exploring north and south, trying to combine expansion with laying a defensive mine field.

Not having done this before, though, I struggled with the mechanics some. It also seemed to take forever just to grab those first four planets -- I choose them for the HW poximity, to keep the supply jumps short.

Over the next couple of turns, I'd be building nice Duranium and Moly mines on 361 and 429, and dropping supplies, colonists, and megacredits on 364, 344 and 473. I'm also pushing light, low fuel, Opals to the south and east, since I managed to strand my ruby on 237 with no gas.

Anyhow, I know there was lots of room for improvement, so I look forward to hearing your advice and suggestions.

2629 days, 15 hours, 56 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Hi Bond

This has been quite useful. Thanks for puting in the time.

My plan at this point was:

Continue expanding North with S25 (It would folllow the MDSF if it found anything good, which it hasn't so far, else it would go left.)
Collect money with one of my opals for my Home world.
Bring S18 back to P399 to make some mines (since it forgot to bring its own).
Figure out the enemy presence in the South and East cluster and send my second Opal to whichever needed it more.

Thats about it. I didn't have plans for a second starbase, since the planets I consider to be good enough are too close to my Home world.

A Crystals 201 course could be interesting. If you could make the starting locations non-random and recruit 6 non-crystal players and alternate starting positions with 6 crystal players, I think that could be very interesting. Play for the first 30 turns or until ship limit or something along those lines. I'd definelty take part again.

Thanks again
Cpt Spiff

2625 days, 18 hours, 53 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

Thanks for your messages. It is my intention to share here my thoughts for each of your empires - as I indicated in my last in-game mail. It could take me a few more days before I take a look at it. Thanks for your patience.

2625 days, 15 hours, 1 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners

I'll took a look to the turns when I have time. I'd been a bit busy lately with a work project.

Regards

Nite

2625 days, 13 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: Economics 101 for Beginners