End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...

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1307 days, 19 hours, 44 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
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End of Game Achievement reduced for small games

We have scaled back the achievements awarded for games with less than 11 players. Small games will now earn the following percentage of the normal amount:

8 players - 70%
9 players - 80%
10 players - 90%

This applies to all new games and games in progress. There is no change for games with 11 or more players.
1307 days, 19 hours, 37 minutes ago
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frostriese
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Great!
1307 days, 19 hours, 36 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
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I like.
1307 days, 19 hours, 26 minutes ago
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olegboleg
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i am curious:

this seems to be a fix to something. Can anyone elaborate why this change is being implemented

also please clarify: if the game started with 11 players and some get killed along the way or drop out, this still counts as a 11 player game?
1307 days, 19 hours, 18 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
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This just reflects that it is a little easier to succeed in games with fewer players, so it gets a little smaller award.

And by the number of players, I meant starting players. If players die or leave the game that makes no difference here. Actually, I'll edit my top post to make that more clear.
1307 days, 19 hours, 11 minutes ago
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martinr
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Possible changes may have come about from other forum posts.

With most games dropping to less than 11 players at the end and the lowest public game I believe is 8 I think it indicates the players at the start and not the end. If not this would punish players that remove players from the game.

But BB can confirm the exact wording to be put in the documentation.
1307 days, 17 hours, 38 minutes ago
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coen1970
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Nice, and did I just read in @Big Beefer's reply that we can hope for a edit button in thread? Or is this only for the admin users?
1307 days, 17 hours, 14 minutes ago
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olegboleg
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@Coen1970

edit button has been around for a while :)

hit the "link" button on the top bar of an article. in the full view of the thread you cna hit "edit" on your own posts.
1306 days, 10 hours, 26 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
> Possible changes may have come about from other forum posts.

There are a few players who created fake beginner games to use to farm points. Those games were mostly 8-player games, and are now worth less to the winners. This change could have been triggered by those games, but I believe it's a good change overall.

Thanks Big Beefer.
1306 days, 9 hours, 45 minutes ago
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mule
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A "step" in the right direction - of a journey with miles to go.
1306 days, 9 hours, 45 minutes ago
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rob73
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why not extend the reduction to game with less than 8 players?
60% for 7 players
50% for 6 players
40% for 5 players
30% for 4 players
20% for 3 players
10% for 2 players
1306 days, 9 hours, 37 minutes ago
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mule
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
+1 for Rob73's suggestion.

I would also suggest there should be a later point of measurement than Turn 1 - which is so begging to be abused. Maybe the game's half-way point. Thus, if a game lasts 10 turns - count the number of players on turn 50 and factor from there.
1306 days, 9 hours, 34 minutes ago
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martinr
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I believe custom games and those eligible to be made public and earn achievement points are limited to 8 players. And I think is fair as it deviates from the 11 player game too much.

If you want to play games versus less players you can do so but they are not eligible for achievement points or campaign resources.

They can be just as fun but there should be some cut off for campaign rewards.
1306 days, 9 hours, 31 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
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@Rob73,

> why not extend the reduction to game with less than 8 players?

Because this only impacts the end-of-game achievement points, not the in-game achievement points, which are also easier with a smaller player set.

> I would also suggest there should be a later point of measurement than Turn 1

I think the best measurement is the number of player slots. For anything except a running-start game (can only be created by the system), that's the same as the number of players in at turn 1.
1306 days, 9 hours, 27 minutes ago
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issen adtur
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There aren't any games with less than 8 players.
1306 days, 9 hours, 26 minutes ago
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martinr
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Problem with low player games they can be used as practice games between friends to develop strategy and tactics in a no real threat situation. Yes you gain experience with various tactics but why should you gain resources as well?

They are also more difficult to police.

You have to have a cut off point and I think 8 players is fair.
1306 days, 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
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mule
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re: Games "starting" with <8 players - no points. I'm good with that.

@whisperer: (quote) "I think the best measurement is the number of player slots. For anything except a running-start game (can only be created by the system), that's the same as the number of players in at turn 1."

As far as I can see, you haven't justified such a turn 1 measurement. Only defined it. It appears to me someone(s) could just start a game with 8 or more players (or un-vetted IDs) - see most of them immediately drop out and the remaining player(s)get rewarded. How can anyone respect points and players from such a process?
1306 days, 8 hours, 56 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
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@Mule,

> It appears to me someone(s) could just start a game with 8 or more players (or un-vetted IDs) - see most of them immediately drop out and the remaining player(s) get rewarded.

They could do the same with an 11-player or 35-player game. In fact, it's not unusual for the majority of players in a Melee game to drop or be killed before the end of the game.

I see no reason to penalize players in a valid 11-player game because they killed off the opponents too early. If a 4th player is killed before turn 50 with your suggested change, then there will be no end-of-game bonus. That's also not fair.

There's a balance to be had here, and I think the change that Big Beefer just announced puts us a bit closer to that balance.
1306 days, 7 hours, 59 minutes ago
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zixi
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I've just finished my first newbie game (if you don't count the two-diskette games in the 90s). I think there were 11 players at the start, but we were down to 3 by turn 10, and to 2 by half way through.

As a result, I've got a rank that I don't deserve. That rank stops me joining other newbie games, so I'm now in a game where I'm out of my depth. I'd have welcomed anything that didn't put me in this position.

Also, somebody joined at turn 77 out of 80, which seemed rather odd at the time. Maybe they were just hunting some ranking points.
1306 days, 7 hours, 40 minutes ago
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martinr
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That's the idea of MvM. If you survive a MvM you are not eligible for another MvM game.

But its a point it also stops you joining only beginner games.

Have you tried the single player games?

They help you learn the races.
1306 days, 7 hours, 17 minutes ago
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codo der dritte
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Zixi, come join my game : http://planets.nu/#/sector/164101
1306 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
Actually you can join beginner only games but not as a Fed.

You just cannot join MvM games any more. And is that a great loss?
1306 days, 6 hours, 40 minutes ago
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mule
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@Whisperer: "I see no reason to penalize players in a valid 11-player game because they killed off the opponents too early. If a 4th player is killed before turn 50 with your suggested change, then there will be no end-of-game bonus. That's also not fair."

I like fair too and I see nothing fair about players in games which average 3 or 4 players getting the same points as players which average 8 to 10 players. If we don't agree on the 50% point, fine. Make it 25%. Make it getting past the fast start. SOMETHING to help insure some degree of fairness between games and to reduce (I know stopping would be impossible at this point) farming and abuse of the system.
1306 days, 5 hours, 20 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
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@Mule,

> If we don't agree on the 50% point, fine. Make it 25%. Make it getting past the fast start.

I'm not sure that ANY point other than the start is fair to most players. The issue you're looking at has to do with a "set" game with lots of droppers, and the remaining players taking advantage of the situation (a small percentage of games). The issue I'm looking at is a player who enters into a game, expecting it to be real, and sees half the players drop in the first 10 turns. That player's investment (if they stick with the game) and reputation (should they drop when the end-of-game bonuses are removed?) should not be impacted. In my opinion, the second situation, since it occurs much more frequently, and has an honest player at the core of it, should be respected over the first situation. Any error here should be on the side of the honest player.

In any case, I believe you're attacking this issue from the wrong end. I think it should be more "expensive" for the dropper.

Perhaps it would be useful to have a minimum starting rank of Lt. for public player-created games and most Classic games. This would significantly increase the investment for this sort of farming. There are plenty of system-created beginner games.

As for farming, why should this matter to you? You've stated several times that the entire points/rank system is FUBAR, and you've implied (I don't recall whether or not you've ever actually stated it) that you don't care what rank a player is - you look at a player's history. Again, why should any of this matter to you, who has already abandoned all hope for the current points/rank system?
1306 days, 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
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lord pollax
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Like it wouldn't be possible to exploit any of these suggestions... all you have to do is be willing to go through the motions. Holiday mode or just mashing the end turn button on 10 races makes things very easy.

Cheaters got to cheat folks. And scripts can make it even easier I suspect. I've heard nothing suggested which would even begin to curb the problem. This is not a complaint or rip on anyone... but an accurate observation.

Answer why do people cheat/ farm, and then look to address the motivation. Obviously this is about rank and campaign points/resources. Fixes which are not addressing these motivations are not really fixes. Perhaps it is time to acknowledge the failure of campaign resources, etc. and just let people play with what they want. Maybe the rank system needs to be sh%@canned and try something else.

I'm not saying toss out the baby with the bath water, but the systems are broke and/ or are creating motivation to cheat/farm which harms the game overall. Something more imaginative that percentage reductions on rewards will be needed to fix this.
1306 days, 0 hours, 24 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
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My two cents:
- Fairness is overrated. Nowhere in life do you see fairness, and this game is no exception. As such, why should the rewards be fair? It's supposed to be a simulation, and true-to-life demands that a few of us be at the pinnacle of Achievement and the rest of you slobs are busily climbing on top of each other for our entertainment. "Well done, that man! Good show!"
- Seriously: The points system relies on most of us being decent, honest, and honorable. I like to think that we are -- and if we're not, the players will pick up on that and wreak havoc on the offender.

Besides -- nobody in their right mind would actually WANT to be in a champ game unless they're just that good. :o)
1305 days, 23 hours, 32 minutes ago
View challengespaceyard's profile
challengespaceyard
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
I still stand by @Lord+Pollax with respect to campaign resources. These are earned at such a PAINFULLY slow rate that any further campaign games I play will be exclusively as replacements (when I am ready to play again).

The ability to earn them reliably comes with the assumption that a commander can finish a game with a respectable planet/multiplier combo, and the current games do NOT permit this to the average player... especially now that players can no longer receive credit for the planets they take more than once while the game is in progress.

If past testing still stands, do not worry about resource stockpiles with respect to the end of the game. I stockpiled thousands of moly in the last public game I played 50+ turns in, and calcs indicated that this tactic was INEFFECTIVE when I finished it.
1305 days, 23 hours, 5 minutes ago
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mule
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
I agree with Lord P on this one entirely.

Fairness? No. I don't expect it. Not in life and not in this game. But, when someone says one thing is not fair, I feel justified in saying something else isn't fair either. But, it would be nice if our games were played and scored on a level surface or reasonable facsimile.

As far as me caring about scores... I do not as it now stands. I would like to care though. But, that would need something as described above, instead of what we have.
1305 days, 21 hours, 48 minutes ago
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luck
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Another agreement with Lord Pollax. Why do we have this beautiful Campaign system which makes a game I liked 20 years ago into a game I love today, and then make the rate which we can unlock it so incredibly slow? I've played VGAP. I want to play more Planets.Nu.

Unlock all the campaign advantages for everyone, and let the 500 point limit handle the balance. The Campaign race and ship adjustments are awesome, they just need to breathe.
1305 days, 21 hours, 32 minutes ago
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ace rimmer
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Couldn't agree with Luck more.

Ace
1305 days, 18 hours, 51 minutes ago
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hays
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+1 on Lucks statement. I am on Nu a year, playing +3 games same time, but i cant unlock the final campaign feature for my favorite race cause i am missing MC. Grind in standard to have a chance in Campaign? Working as intended?
1305 days, 14 hours, 18 minutes ago
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martinr
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Luck you have just over 114 turns in your highest officer and Hays you have 250 turns. You have hardly started and played your favourite races. So effectively 1 to 3 games each of a good solid game.

How quickly do you think you should gain resources?

All available after 1 game?
1305 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes ago
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lord pollax
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Your point is well taken MArtinr, but on the flip side: How many years do you expect people to play and finish well repeatedly in order to get a handful of trinkets that are absolutely essential in campaign game play?

Maybe this is where we encourage people to become paying members, and say that campaign games are for paying members only, and have all features unlocked. Luck was spot on with his pint about the 500 point feature controlling game play already.

Another option might be the purchase of campaign resources. It certainly could help fund more on the website and would not cause any game play issues (due to the 500 point limit already). I'd toss out the idea of having rank allow more points in games, but that would further motivate cheating for rank.
1305 days, 11 hours, 11 minutes ago
View challengespaceyard's profile
challengespaceyard
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Furthermore, the average public game length is 87.624 turns and continues to increase over time. Upon throwing MvM games out the window, the average increases to 89.320 (!) turns.

At the rate that games have been played lately (every day until turn 15, 3 turns/week thereafter), this averages 27 weeks, barring early host runs and pauses!
1305 days, 0 hours, 20 minutes ago
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luck
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
Martinr: All available after 0 games. Classic games exist, Standard games exist. When I play a Campaign game, I don't want an advantage just because of when I registered.
1304 days, 14 hours, 28 minutes ago
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martinr
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@Luck. Would you also like the right to join Championship games from when you join?

Call it a privilege of playing lots of turns.

You have completed one game as your favourite race. This game is designed to be a very long game and you cannot expect to be an expert on one race after one game and should also not expect to have all the advantages after one game.

I consider myself a slightly above average player. I have played over 900 turns as Feds and don't have all the advantages yet and I play other races as well as the Feds. I am sure a few others will have all of them by a similar time frame and some will have less resources at a similar time frame.

I have suggested that there be a Campaign level membership which costs you additional on top. Say double the current monthly fee and possibly only available for 12 months at a time minimum. That membership will give you access to all the campaign advantages but only in specific games open to Campaign level membership. I would also say that you gain no campaign resources / experience or achievement points in those games. But you would receive them in none Campaign level games you also joined.

I have done this several times and asked who would pay for it. I had a handful of people said they would (I personally would not bother). More importantly Admin has paid no interest in giving Campaign advantages for free or paying for it.

So if you want Campaign Advantages you will have to wait for a change of mind by Admin or keep playing games.
1304 days, 13 hours, 4 minutes ago
View rudel's profile
rudel
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
Given players who play 24/7 an even more advantage is a real good idea. It's like giving one extra chess piece to the grandmaster of chess because he plays so much.
1304 days, 12 hours, 39 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
If there was a reward in chess for playing lots of high levels games and you could gain an extra piece a grandmaster should be able to get one.

But a grandmaster doesn't get an extra piece does he. But he gets so good as he puts the time in playing the game against multiple good opponents. He wins because he is good and is experienced and has spent time on the game. So his "extra piece" is the time he has spent studying the game putting enough time in.

Also like someone who studies for qualifications or training.

They spend time gaining degrees, doctorates so they can get advanced jobs?

Electricians who study extra for qualifications get to work on projects that pay extra.

In life you put the effort in you get rewarded for it. Admin must think similar.

Someone playing 8 games badly may get there in the same time as someone playing well in two or three games. But they put the time in so they get their Campaign resources.
1304 days, 12 hours, 25 minutes ago
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mr.universe
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Torp race need to kill a neighbor before the ship limit. So this 25% or 50% will harm the badly... @Mule are you playing fighter races only and tent to start anything after the limit? Otherwise your proposal dont make sense...

In one of my games a player, who havent won a single battle for the hole game, came 3th:D so much about fair...

After being on the site for an year i can research the top campaign features for 2 race, but only 1 pro race. I cannot play more than 1 game at a time and with more than 150 ships evan 1 game is too much... To be able to unlock all the features i will need at least 3 more years, provided that i win all the games i join.. OR maybe i will try losing every battle and becoming 3th the hole time and it may take 6 more years:D
1304 days, 10 hours, 13 minutes ago
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mule
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
@mr.universe:
"are you playing fighter races only"... no. I play all types of races. But, I fail to see how not counting how many players are in a game until later is impacted by this in any way,

As far as giving more advantages in a campaign game for playing more games and/or accumulating more points... that is exactly why I do not play in those games. I will never be convinced this is a good game model.
1304 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes ago
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luck
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
Martinr: I don't see any point in continuing to discuss this with you if you are going to argue with your strawman of me instead of with me. I get that you are invested in the existing system. I'm a little miffed that you think they hand out doctorates just because someone "spends time".

Ok one more for those who are discussing in good faith: Yes I would like everyone to join Championship games right away. It's called "a Ladder", which if you read threads around here is a pretty great idea.
1304 days, 8 hours, 50 minutes ago
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issen adtur
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
This is an old argument.

One side wants to earn it, the other wants it all for free.

There are valid points on both sides.

It's also not necessarily on topic.

The thread is about lessening the impact on achievement from playing games with fewer than the "standard" number of players.

Great idea IMO.

Everything AFTER the announcement was just us chest thumping about how to make it even "better" by our own estimation.

Plus one for the Admin!

Everything else is fluff.

1304 days, 7 hours, 38 minutes ago
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coen1970
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
HE PLAYS THE BORG

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

See http://play.planets.nu/#/sector/159087
1304 days, 7 hours, 24 minutes ago
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issen adtur
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
Ha!
I play everything except the Bots... so far!
1304 days, 7 hours, 17 minutes ago
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coen1970
RE: End of Game Achievement reduced for small games We have...Write Reply
Well I thought this in-game quote was pretty appropriate here.