Failed Leadership

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2514 days, 8 hours, 24 minutes ago

Failed Leadership

I recently started playing a game with several members from the leaderboard, and thought that because of their apparent experience and position on the leaderboard I would be in for a good game and might learn a few things. Sadly I learned that the current ranking system is missing something, and running up your statistics is easy if dropping out of a game when things get hairy isn't beneath you..

Other posts have discussed at length the problem caused by dropouts, but we still do not enforce anything against those who do it. I understand there may be many reasons to withdraw from a game and some of them are legitimate. Others are not. Just because a less experienced player gains an upper hand on you and things don't look like they'll be going well for you in the near future doesn't make it ok to throw in the towel. Shame on you!

(Begin rant)

So, I wanted to take this chance to express my disappointment to all of the cowards in hiding on the leaderboard who would rather dropout of a game than not place 1st or 2nd in it. Where I'm from we call them sore losers. Since the ranking system doesn't penalize players who add/drop it's hard to tell which of you on that list are good and noble players and which are the cowards.

I'd cast my vote for the karma system recommended by dines, with perhaps a revision that would allow a player to join an existing game to check and see if there's any chance of survival and only count against them if they play more than 3 or 4 turns.

2513 days, 12 hours, 51 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Why do players get upset by this? If someone drops take their stuff and more easily win the game. If they drop and aren't near you then consider it a challenge to overcome.

I don't get it. It's a game. I drop when I'm bored. I drop when I am unchallenged. I drop when I have no hope of winning. I drop for RW reasons. I also play to the bitter end, if I am entertained.

It's part of the game. In real life countries surrender or make peace treaties. Do we rant at them because they did not entertain us with their death throes?

2513 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: Failed Leadership

Very much agree with you, Darth Balls, and thanks for the post.

You can look at many high-ranking players on the leaderboard and note that it appears that most of their games have resulted in a first-place win or very close to the top. But then you can do the math and realize that they have so many points because of oodles of unfinished games.

The karma system from the old Robomaster host was effective but a bit convoluted.

I say just penalize dropouts by taking away their experience, achievement, and destruction points from any game they dropped out of. Complete with a message: "Warning! If you drop out of this game, you will lose all achievements accumulated in this game!" If they play only 3-4 turns it's no big deal. But if they start and play 30 turns and gain some experience and achievement and then drop when the tide turns against them, that's when they need to be penalized.

I'm playing 4 games right now. In two of them I'm solidly in the lead, and in two of them I am losing horribly. Of course I enjoy opening the turns for the games in which I'm winning, and I kind of dread opening the losing-game turns because I know my situation will be worse and worse. But that's part of the game. Take the good with the bad. Plus, I learn infinitely more about the game when I lose than when I win, because I can look back and see exactly the mistakes I made that caused my downfall.

Serious and courageous players are stubborn and tenacious. Only serious and courageous players deserve to be on the leaderboard.

(whew thanks for letting me blow off steam also)

2513 days, 12 hours, 19 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I don't have the points system handy, but IIRC, you get many more points for finishing high than for finishing top 1/3.

Perhaps a more balanced system would help. Yes, finishing 1st gives more points, but sticking it out and finishing 5th or 6th is still worth something. Each rank should be valuable enough that it's worth duking it out between 10th and 11th, rather than opening the turn and doing the bare minimum to count as playing. Maybe even a penalty for coming in last.

If you leave a game, maybe you don't get points until the game is finished. If you quit at rank 5, turn 30, and the game continues for 100 turns, you eventually get 30/100 x points for rank 5. Sticking it out and coming in 8th is still better. However, if real life interferes -- these games can last a year -- you get at least some reward for your work.

Just ideas. Once mutated and mixed with others, they might prove useful.

2513 days, 11 hours, 5 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I'm upset by this, Tom, because it's deceptive. I thought that being on the leaderboard was something reserved for people who, as echoclusterveteran put it, were serious and courageous. This current system rewards leaderboard status to not only the best players, but to the players with the most time on their hands. A player could join 10 games and start playing them. Maybe after turn 20 or so things are going well for them in 2 or 3 games. They can drop the other 7 or 8 games without consequence and only continue playing the games where they will end up in the top 3. They can even add another 10 and see which games they come out on top in. Some of these players show 70 or 80 turns of experience in a race but never finished a single game with them. I think that's pretty lousy.

If you drop a game, your player record should have a "Game X- Status: Withdrawn turn 24 in 8th place" on it. Nobody expects you to win every game you participate in, but by leaving a trace of it in a player's profile it will encourage people to keep fighting when their back is to the wall instead of casually walking away from it. Some of the most exciting victories and tactics emerge when you're fighting in almost hopeless situations. My college transcript still has a W on it because I didn't finish Spanish 101 in 2001 and I didn't think there was anything unfair about that. I wouldn't say it's dramatically affected my life but it is there as a constant reminder that I threw in the towel.

For me the most important thing isn't even that we punish or take away experience from people who drop games. It's about branding them so players know they don't follow through with games they begin playing unless they're winning. That way if I know that I am playing in a game with a coward who will walk away as soon as things go poorly for them, I can treat them more gently so as to make it look like theye have a chance at winning.

2513 days, 10 hours, 5 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

The inflated leaderboard scores are something that bothers me too. A 'senior officers' game doesn't really mean anything because of it. A good new player might be prevented from joining because of lacking the rank, a bad player can join just because of multiple games played. There are some more reliable ways of assessing potential opponent strength from the player profile, but the current ranking system is just flawed.

2513 days, 9 hours, 35 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Failed Leadership

Smn, that's how it is. My first senior games where quite disappointing regarding this aspect. Either my or my opponents neighbours were unexperienced/unmotivated players and therefore totally unbalanced the game for the real seniors.

2513 days, 9 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

http://planets.nu/discussion/the-karma-system-getting-rid-of-dropouts

http://planets.nu/discussion/a-better-ranking-system

I guess its time i made a proper suggestion in the feedback sector,
or even better, found some API-developers to make the systems, so they can be easily implemented by the planets.nu developers, if they ever wake up, and start fixing the site, instead of expanding it with more broken content....

2513 days, 8 hours, 45 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

The leaderboard might not be the best gauge of a player's strength, but to me that in itself is not a big deal. I'm not in it for the fame, I just want to find good, competitive games to play in, the first criterion being games where everyone is playing. And as noted, the leaderboard rankings do not help much in that.

I think we can safely we say we have two different schools of thought amongst the players here:
1. Those that think games should be played out regardless of how it's going for you, even if only for the benefit of the other players.
2. Those that think it's OK to drop a game and move on to the next one.

I think we can also all agree that drop-outs affect the quality of the game for the remaining players. Tom, when say to just take the dropper's stuff and win more easily, that's fine (and what you pretty much have to do), but is that what you want to be doing? I find that incredibly uninteresting. I play this multi-player game to play against other players.

I'm not saying that droppers are necessarily bad, just that there is large group of players that would prefer not to play with them. But I don't foresee any sort of "punishment" being put in by development for dropping, since the last thing they want is to possibly put off any paying customers. Nor do I really see a need for it. I don't want to tell other people how to play.

My proposal is to keep a simple counter of consecutively completed games, and make available games where you have to have a certain number of such to join. You resign or miss 3 turns (possibly with some exceptions for players "almost" dead anyways), your counter goes to 0. If I join a game with other players who have all finished their last 3-4 games or more, I would think they will probably do the same in this one. Droppers aren't really affected in any way that might offend them, and those that prefer games with more "to the bloody end" players have games available where they can do just that.

Sorry if I just hijacked this thread. I know it was supposed to be more about the ranking system than avoiding droppers, but it's been on my mind.

2513 days, 7 hours, 50 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

If you were watching a professional sports game (I'll use an NHL hockey game because I'm Canadian) how would you feel if at the end of the 2nd period one team happens to be winning by a sizable margin so instead of coming out to finish the game the other team just packs up and goes home?

The only game I've dropped here I did so because I was changing jobs and felt that I didn't have the time to put into that game. It still bothers me now because I was allied with someone and had been doing well in the game. But more importantly I was enjoying the game.

If I am in a game I'll stick it out supposing I am down to 3 Resolutes and no planets. Just to be a peeve to the guy who killed me, I would float around his back space killing his freighters and planets.

There is a player I have encountered on here who thus far between a friend of mine and I have seen him drop from 4 games. The most recent one I was able to predict to another player, because this guy ALWAYS drops.

Show a little guts and punch the time in a game even if you aren't going to win. The fun is in the playing, not just in winning.

2513 days, 5 hours, 51 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

>> If you were watching a professional sports game (I'll use an NHL hockey game because I'm Canadian) how would you feel if at the end of the 2nd period one team happens to be winning by a sizable margin so instead of coming out to finish the game the other team just packs up and goes home?<<

How many supposed fans abandon their team when they are doing poorly?

Guys, the bottom line is that people play (and go to see professional sports) to win (or see their team win). You have a die hard percentage that will stay to the bitter end of a game of VGA or a professional sports match, but if they look around there won't be many of them left in the stands.

People do not play VGA to be beaten senseless in hopeless situation. You may spin it as 'some on the leader board only play when they have a chance of winning.' I would spin the same thing as I play because I am having fun. It is more fun to win than to lose.

Take note, people like me are easy to get to drop out of the game, if we are not having fun. Use it to your advantage!

Tom

2513 days, 5 hours, 2 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Tom since you're the only person so far to take the other side of this discussion, how would you feel about having the "Game X- Status: Withdrawn turn 24 in 8th place" added to your profile like I suggested earlier?

2513 days, 4 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Tom, fair enough, but I want to find that die hard percentage and play against it. I wonder if a 'die hard' category would make sense. Only requirement, 2+ completed games and no dropped games at all.

2513 days, 3 hours, 34 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I wonder if the host could set requirement to join game where you only have a certain percentage of resigned games, say 10% or less.

That would be the die hard crowd. We could even call them Die Hard Games.

Tom

2513 days, 3 hours, 33 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make above. People shouldn't feel like they have to stay in games they are not having fun in. But if you are next to me and quit just as I'm starting to attack, then the game becomes much less fun for me. I don't want that advantage, I want an opponent. I want the player that does enjoy getting beaten senseless and having to try every desperate move just to possibly injure those overrunning it.

I think there are plenty of players out there like that and we just want our own separate place to play. They may seem elitist or something, but the fact is that people who drop early affect our enjoyment of the game, while I've never heard a complaint from anyone about a player staying in a game "too long", even when they were clearly beaten.

I suppose private games are the best option available right now. Maybe someone (I'm not ready for another game right now) should start a "die hard" private game and make the expectations clear at the outset. It might take a while to fill, but hopefully you'd get a group of players all looking for a similar experience.

2513 days, 3 hours, 33 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

>> Tom since you're the only person so far to take the other side of this discussion, how would you feel about having the "Game X- Status: Withdrawn turn 24 in 8th place" added to your profile like I suggested earlier?<<

It wouldn't bother me at all. You know, you can figure the same thing out roughly by looking at the players total turns for the race and compare it to the turn total of each of the individual games showing. That will give you a fair indicator of how big a resign-er the player is.

For example as the colonies and privs my total turns are equal or almost equal to the turns listed for each game played. While other races, I have significant missing turnage.

Tom

2512 days, 9 hours, 11 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I can understand all sides of the view.

Sometimes I want to take it to the bitter end when I am winning or losing. Just because I think that if Side A is only marginally stronger then Side B but has enough planets to win the game, to end a game like that is sometimes cowardly in itself when the real meat and potatoes is still to be had.

Sometimes, I have an empire thats flourishing. Then something unexpected happens and I'm ruined. And there is literally nothing I can do about it. Even if I fight on every single turn, the damage I can do to myself and the advancing destruction is marginal. My fleets are to far away, and by the time they get home they will be out of fuel.

Sometimes, I have an empire that does really well. But other people are doing a lot better. And I have no chance at winning the game because of placement of Star Clusters and Nebulae.

Sometimes, I am losing badly. But I still have the ability to sink small ships and capture planets. I know I won't win. But I can be a good thorn for a very long time.

Sometimes, I show up at a players door and as soon as I sink a single ship or capture a single planet, he leaves the game. Sometimes I blow up everything and I have to kill him to quit. In either situation I wanted the opposite of the actual event to occur.

Sometimes, I start absorbing a player who has left the game. To find another player has randomly replaced the seat. Now I have to spend an extra 20 turns finishing him off because of random minefields and moving targets. Not to mention rioting planets and other ridiculousness.

Sometimes, I have joined team games only to have half my team randomly disappear and regardless of how well I play the game is over. Sometimes, I have joined team games and all but 3 other players randomly left the game. Now its a land grab battle more then any real fight.

Ultimately,

I would love to see players hold on to the bitter end. But I can't always expect myself to do the same. You can look at my profile and see that I have lost way more games then I have won. And games where I have, I was not #1. Sometimes sticking it out to the bitter end can make some additional headache. Sometimes it won't. Unless you are a cloaking race, sticking it out to the end is a lot more painful then joyful. Your easy to hunt, going to run out of fuel/ammo, and you can't hide. Wheras a Bird player with a handful of Resolutes can simply do nothing for 10 turns then magically uncloak suddenly and blow up everything now that your warships are gone fighting elsewhere, maybe even turn the tide of the game for someone else. A Privateer player can even come back from the grave if he limps to a resigned player's space or simply catches someone unaware. But the Evil Empire, Solar Feds, Rebels, Colonies, Robots and Crystals are all but impossible to make an "Eternal Last Stand of Annoyance". Your going to die, sooner than later.

All this said, penalizing a player for dropping a game as far as losing all accumulated points for said game may be a little stiff. Especially if he has fought bravely for 100 turns and now has enough remaining to be of no consequence one way or the other. And didn't want to fly his remaining Stardrive 1 Merlin that got Ion Stormed off the game map to normal space and try to find a planet to disassemble on within another 150 turns. Likewise to the game completed counter, there will always be a similar exception that will force a player to either give up a game slot, waste 15 minutes a week (while being forced to show up and hit turn ready every X hours), and be reminded of how his once glorious empire is now a single ship with a few hundred crewman on a science ship. Sure sticking it out for another X time would be really no major thing to the remaining players. But all aspect of any fun has been lost, and it is now a matter of duty to show up so he doesn't ruin his reputation as being a worthy opponent.

(Again a moment to key up the necessity of game moderators and tutors). A handful of Volunteer Staff that helps out with tutoring and answering questions, can also be assigned the menial task of helping this situation out. If a player views his position as duty more then play-ability, he could flag his seat for resign-ment. And if he is willing to wait X time for an outside spectator to observe his position and make an honest opinion as to whether or not it is worth that player to continue playing that that player can leave the game without sacrificing his score. (Referee TKO?) And if he is able to still play with any purpose useful enough to change the way the outcome of the game could end up, deny him the ability to leave safely.

He could also maybe call a vote to remaining players in the game. And depending on a 2/3 majority vote, he could either resign the seat and "Dead" out. (Mercy Kill?)

Perhaps maybe an automation feature that if you lose X% of your planets/ships/mil score within a certain period of time due to minehits, combat, and capture you can perhaps leave the seat without penalty. (Blackout?)

And if none of these (more or less) terms are met, then a player would have to take a blow to his score or completed game counter (Karma?). Some games are worth playing to the end because you can ruin someone else's chance of winning. Some players may be willing to give you hospice in their space and give/fuel a SB for you simply so they get every other ship that rolls out of it while securing your survival.

2511 days, 23 hours, 20 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

i know there drop outs thruout the ranks, i can envision situations where players would drop. sometimes they drop 10 turns before being annihilated by someone with 10x thier strength sometimes 30 turns. either way they drop. there is no incentive in this game to remain a punching bag when overwhelmed.

rather than augment the current ranking system lets make a separate point system. karma points. karma is gained 1 pt for every turn played. if you play til the game is over or your wiped out, you get 5x the points for completing. a 100 turn game could result in 500 karma points even i finish last. if i quit at turn 70 and refuse to play to the end, im awarded 70 points, but i dont get those points until the game has ended.

these points for karma could be used as a requirement for joining new games. and spent as well.
lets say i wanted to play a senior officers game, id have to pay 130 karma points just to join. which means in order to break even on this game i have to do one of two things. 1) play 130 turns before i drop. or play til the end. officer games might require a much less fee, say 90 karma points to play, and junior officer games 65.

if wanted to link this system to rank, we could just say to enter higher ranked games you have to purchase the rank instead of pay for the game. each rank requires the accumalution of x karma points. those who quit all the time would have to play 5x more games in order to acrue the points neccessary for promotion. in otherwords a dropper could still get promoted if he plays 5x more games.

another method, is you gain no karma points if you drop at all. only if you finish. and buying the new ranks would require the karma points. this would definately weed out the droppers. and they could continue playing all the games they want but only at thier current rank. the downside to this is that it could create bottom feeder sharks. expert players who refuse to promote feeding on the unexpected and inexperienced.. this i do not like at all. so i would like to think that even droppers would slowly be forced to promote at least to a certain rank somewhere in the middle where they couldnt hurt the new guys and wont be involved with the top ranks. perhqaps the bottom 3 ranks could be based on experienced earned. and the mid three base on achievements earned. and the last ranks based on karma. i dunno the whole answer, but there has to one that works.

Proto

2511 days, 5 hours, 50 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Ummm, I am not sure about this so don't yell and scream if this is not the case..... but doesn't a player lose all of his experience and achievement points gained for a game if he drops out? I thought that was the case.

2511 days, 5 hours, 49 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

No

2511 days, 3 hours, 5 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Howdy, all

It’s simple if a person doesn’t value it, they’ll (some) will abuse it.

Ok, now you have two camps:

A)Players that value playing to the end

B)Players that eh, if it gets tough drop and join/start another game

Just a couple of suggestions { like to try to keep things simple}

A] Finishing rewards

When signing up for Planets at the most you can join 3 games{number can be changed if people feel it needs to be higher}. Every time you finish a game you get a 1/3 of game level pt, after you finish 3 games, you can add a new game to join. After 9 finished games you could run 6 concurrent games. If you drop a game, a negative 1/3 game level is deducted, and yes if you drop enough game, you will only have one active game. That game has to be finished before you can join the next game.

Pros: Rewards players for finishing, limits the number of dropper players can join

Cons: Punishes players who aren’t droppers

B] Scarlet Yellow Status [as in Scarlet Letter]

Group decides what the criteria of an abuse dropper is. When a players trip the criteria, they enter Yellow Status. When they join games, their names are in yellow. Any non-yellow status player can bump them out of that slot up till turn 4. I like this because non-yellow players can decide; “Do want to join this game with over half the people yellow as players?” People can ask them please join this game, because I know you don’t quit. Also this keeps people from whining {I really don’t think it whining}, these players dropped. Well when you joined you saw over half were yellow status, duh. To clear this status, you have to finish your next two games.

Pro: Players can see what they are getting into, Punishment for players that like to drop

Cons:

C] 9th Circle of Planets

When players get yellow status, they can only join games with other yellow status people. They only can get rid of yellow status, if “EVERYONE” finishes the game. They are quitters by nature that will never happen. ETERNAL DAMNATION. 

At first, I felt so what!! Role with the punches of war. Thinking about it more, it’s a basic respect thing. Would you play chess with a person that time and time again, quit when you took their rook? That’s the problem with cyber space, certain things create very little value. If I can currently join 10 games, play a month, decide my favorite 5, and drop the other 5, and then add another 5 games; repeat the process. Without any sort of penalty, I consider that being a design flaw in the game.

2511 days, 0 hours, 46 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Not so fast bacchus. DragonDejhi is partly correct. The "PO" Public Opinion achievement points that a game gives you as you play (1 point for each planet) does indeed go away once you drop. The only achievement points from a game that remain once you drop are the historical ones earned from destroying ships/planets or capturing ships.

However, with that said, there are players willing to give up those PO achievement points and drop a game -- so that they join another game where they feel they can gain a greater number of achievement points.

2511 days, 0 hours, 8 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I really like what 723 had to say there about "Finishing Rewards." Everyone seems to agree on the 2 camps, finishers and dropouts, and even agree that to a certain degree, most players will still dropout of a game under certain circumstances. If we can also agree that when players drop games it changes the enjoyment other players experience in a game, then we should be able to come to a consensus that there should be additional controls in place to limit or discourage such behavior in the interests of ensuring the best possible experience for the greatest number of players.

The Scarlet Yellow status coupled with my previous suggestion of including all joined and dropped games in a player's profile would allow further transparency in who you're joining games with. I simply wouldn't play games with players who I didn't expect to play through to some degree of completion and expect another sizable percentage wouldn't as well. We could also implement a "Mercy Rule" which wouldn't penalize players for dropping out of a game if they had less than X amount of planets and 3 or 4 % of the total military score, especially if the KillRace feature was automatically implemented in such surrenders.

I haven't been very involved in the development of this game or the feature suggestions/enhancements so I'm not sure what the process is from here. It seems from the feedback we've gotten thus far that a significant number of players are interested in seeing something change, and I really didn't start this thread just to vent and see nothing done about it. Where do we go from here, and how do we get the ball rolling?

2510 days, 23 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I totally agree with Big Beefer. Keep it Simple. Player X has started 10 games and finished 9...etc.

A 'Started Game' is one that the player began and was still playing after turn 2. I don't think it's fair to penalize a player for taking a peek & changing their mind and immediately dropping.

I think most of us agree the best games, and most memorable, are the ones where 9 or more of the original starting players are there until the end game, so why not have a "Ratio of Finished Games" score next to the "Missed Turns" percentage on each players profile?

2510 days, 22 hours, 13 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I think that we should be tracking games that were dropped anyways for other reasons. There is a bit of a situation on here of "players" who magically sign up to a dropped player in a game, transfer their equipment to someone else and then drop again. In that scenario it is virtually impossible to track what games that player has signed up for and then dropped. I think tracking every game you have participated in (not just the ones you are active or finished) including a reason for leaving (resigned or dropped due to missing 3 consecutive turns) would be appropriate and would solve both problems.

2510 days, 20 hours, 58 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Agreed; and I'm certain that somewhere in the tomes of data that the .nu servers keep it would be possible to resurrect and include all of those "phantom games" on players' profile. Think of it as an added way to keep people honest, and shed some light onto unscrupulous activities.

2510 days, 19 hours, 35 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I have an easy fix that doesn't require messing with players' historic scores or penalizing players, nor require much new coding for the developers. Simply have some games with a "You cannot drop this game" requirement with VERY severe punishment for dropping that game only (rank reduction, experience reduction, whatever...). If you can find a replacement player then you're off the hook, this will cover players who genuinely have Real Life problems. Boost the difficulty multiplier to reward those who do ultimately win in such higher stakes games.

It's simple and doesn't effect player who like to drop games because they won't have to play them. It also doesn't mess with the existing ranking system.

I know I would LOVE to play in such games.

2510 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

i think marklein hit this on the head. why do we have the resign option? of course its tol allow droppers. lets remove it completely. i dont really see the need for it except to allow someone to drop and ruin the game for others. so what if he dont submit the next 30 turns. he is allowed 8 games, if he wants to not submit turns for 9 of them so be it. he has committed himself on turn 1 and now he is committed to the games entirety.

its the easy fix, no points or score to alter, no more dropping, no more complaints about those who drop. etc. eliminate the resign button. inform the players they are committing thier game slot to the entirety of the game.

2510 days, 12 hours, 27 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: Failed Leadership

Eeon/Marklein –

I agree and thank you for making this point so clearly and eloquently.

The only exception that I would like to see would still be an allowance for replacement players. But the player should be required to find their own replacement (using the forums, presumably) and should not be allowed out of the game until the replacement takes over.

I recently took over an excellent Privateer position from Vepr. He had real-life issues that prevented him from taking the necessary time to work with a large Privateer game, so he solicited a replacement using the forums. As we talked he conveyed to me the game history and the nature of his relationships with other players and the goals he had established. In short, he cared enough about his game to leave it in a great position and to allow me to move forward with it successfully and seamlessly. Also, he told me exactly what day and time he would be resigning so that I could jump in and take over immediately.

That, my friends, is the correct way to drop out of a game of VGA Planets.

2510 days, 12 hours, 18 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

i see your point and the fix for that is easy....

replace the resign button with a "seeking replacement button."

the original player is still bound to the game until a replacement player has accepted the position.

when the original player clicks this button he is given a text box to describe his situation this will be posted to the game forum with the data attached to the bottom so the potential candidtates for replacemeing him can have a clear idea of his current position. if no one replaces him, he is stuck playing the game until it occurs.

2510 days, 12 hours, 0 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

>>its the easy fix, no points or score to alter, no more dropping, no more complaints about those who drop. etc. eliminate the resign button. inform the players they are committing thier game slot to the entirety of the game.<<

It fixes nothing. If I don't like the game. I'll drop. If all my game slots get used, I'll create another account.

Any system you can think of there will be ways found to get around it. Flagging frequent droppers with a yellow highlight, I thought was the best. Don't join those games with percentages of droppers. Total turns of Finished or current games is 50% or less of total turns gets you a yellow highlight.

'Die Hards' could get red highlights. They hardly ever resign. Then die hards could join games with like minded individuals. No need for penalties and rules (and enforcement agencies). Total turns of finished or current games is 85% of total turns get you a red highlight.

Free market in action.

Tom

2510 days, 11 hours, 46 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

@tom actually it does.....

first off if you dont like the game you will drop!?... cant do that anymore.....but you can get lucky and find a replacement.

if your games slots are full you will just create another account!?.... go for it , at least the new accounts wont be in the high ranking games. stay down there in the newb games and learn nothing about skills. go for it. im sorry but i dont see your answer as a problem.

2510 days, 11 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

>>if your games slots are full you will just create another account!?.... go for it , at least the new accounts wont be in the high ranking games. stay down there in the newb games and learn nothing about skills. go for it. im sorry but i dont see your answer as a problem.<<

It was an example. Not meant to be taken literally. The point I was making is nothing the host creates will prevent people from gaming the system.

It would be easier to create a system where like minded players could get into games together. We all play for fun and if droppers make it less fun for you then you should play games only with other players that don't drop very often and everyone plays to the last colonist.

I am more easily bored. I don't want my fun ruined because people that don't think I play 'correctly', i.e. 'like they do' legislate how I play.

I am sure the host wants more players not less. Punishing people causes them to be angry and to leave your game and not spend money. Which is what you may want as a player ('yes, let the droppers go, who needs them anyway!'), but as a business it is difficult to make a case that this would be a good thing.

So open your horizons a little, realize it is not all about you and be inclusive of other ways of playing, but find a way so that it is fun for everyone and not just me or you. I wouldn't mind if your punishment system was implemented, but it was reserved only for certain types of games (for example Die Hard games!) If you join a Die Hard game all the restrictions and punishments you have detailed would apply to the players that joined.

In such a case, I would have the _choice_ to not join a Die Hard game! More than likely you and other like minded people would and they could have fun, knowing hardly anyone would drop. But to make this restriction on every game for every player is draconian.

Tom

2510 days, 10 hours, 30 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I would have to agree with Tom here. Your going to make a difficult game to learn one that is hard and forced down your throat. New players that don't win will quit and never return. Players who win early will soon get stomped eventually and rage quit. That's not a business model to follow, and I think that breaks the spirit of the game.

When people are losing and want out of the game they can simply make a side account and trade the losing game to it and be rid of the game.

You will also note a steeply increased batch of angry forum trolls begging to have mercy applied so they can quit and join new games.

You'll have people who simply disable all ships and post all planet positions and beam colonists into deep space. Another decision I'm sure you wouldn't want to play out.

2510 days, 9 hours, 52 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

im sorry but if the quiters want to create a new account to quit on, more power to em. and if they continue to play disasembleing thier ships and beaming colonists into space?.... id actually prefer that to just plain abondment , cuz thats why the game sucks with droppers. they leave thier ships open to capture and thier planets rich with minerals that my enemys exploit unoposed. again im sorry but i dont see this as a problem yet.

as for newbies signing on to a game with a horde of quiters, lucky them, they get rewarded for staying the course. and will get to play the game with the real players once they promote.

so again i dont see a problem here.

holerrin and screamin about not being committed to a game that they signed on for..... doesnt bother me a bit. perhaps i am draconian, but hey if they want the perfect winnning environment they can always buy tims winplan and play against the AI, so i still dont see the problem.

2510 days, 9 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Eeon makes good points.

As for rules, I believe that the only rule in a game should be no rules. If the game allows you to do it then do it. The only thing I do not respect are those the negociate in poor faith or break their word.

Obviously if I join a game with rules however I will abide by them.

2510 days, 8 hours, 45 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Again, I don't think this is (or should be) about "punishing" droppers. If Tom plays a game until he's bored and dips out, that's certainly his right. I don't think anyone should be pushed to keep playing a game they are not enjoying. But like I said, some people still enjoy playing, even when they're being beaten. We just need a way to fill some games with only those players.

Tom should always be free to play, or quit, as he pleases. But I would just like to see games available that maybe Tom can't (or won't) join. Games where all of the players either have a track record of seeing things through, or at least agree to those terms going in.

We have the various levels of games to try and keep players of similar skill level playing together. The problem for me (and I think the main point of this thread originally), is that skill level does not necessarily correspond to commitment, which to many is more important. So we just need games that can group players based on that instead (or in addition to).

My point really is that we don't need to do anything to droppers. They are who they are, and they play the way they like. We just need some "droppers not welcome" games. They'll have plenty of others to join, and I don't really see them trying to abuse the system or something just to try and get into these "die hard" games.

2510 days, 8 hours, 14 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

well in regards to allowing them "quiters" to play a game. nobody is stopping from doing that. they simply stop submitting thier turns. i mean thats basically what we are talking about here right.

creating commitment level games might work! but then that requires a lot more changes to the configs than i suggested. if commitment level games can be applied then im all for it. either way the new argument will be "why am i being punished, why cant i play commitment level games" and again im game for either option, just so long as i dont wait a month for a commitment level game to open up!

under these current situations the more specs in the game the less likely it will be available to you. i waited 5 weeks for an officer game to open up that played 3x week. and after waiting that 5 weeks i found 3 players have quit already. dissapointing to say the least, cause my die hard friends are now exploiting those left behind shis and planets and incorporating them into their empires. so in a nutshell 5 weeks of wait to play in yet another messed up game ruined by quiters. im not quiting myself in this game but its gonna be a lil harder to compete now than it should have been. crystals with privateer MCBRs and or borg with empire ssd's sad sad sad.

but back to the point im trying to make, if we are going to go with commitment level games, lets do it, and make sure there are enough to go around. lets not make it a 1 game per month kinda thing.

Eeon

2510 days, 4 hours, 6 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

We can discuss all we want, but we really lack the data to make a good decision. It's up to the developers to take action. Yes, they do have to keep in mind a business. Problem is if 90% of the droppers are non-paying members, the droppers are annoying the paying members. Some corrective action should be done; limiting games joined, achievements reduced. Yes, they'll always be people that may create multiple accounts ect. to game the system. Point being paying members are seeing action done to a problem they see. If the stats are 50% paying members, then they my have to tread more carefully.

I would just like to see a preemptive system, when I join, I can(easily) see the type of players. For me it's personal responsibility to other players. I'm limiting myself to 3 games probably could do 5 easily, but keeping a buffer if life bites me.

Sorry to kinda start a new thread, can we drop the holiday feature!!! Droppers that stay on make games draggggggggggggggg on. We are basically done with the game 6 "live" players left. Two players haven't built a ship or taken planet in over 20 turns. The other 4 players relatively quickly play their turns. Game plays 3 x a week, all four players turn are done, but we have to wait till Sunday for the host to run.

Joy of Joys I have tom graves in a game, we'll see how long he hangs around. grin

Danka

2510 days, 3 hours, 50 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

>>Joy of Joys I have tom graves in a game, we'll see how long he hangs around. grin<<

Ah yes, the Borg that broadcast the Fascist HW on turn 3. Yes, I like that. You are interesting. I think we will have a very interesting game!

Tom

2510 days, 3 hours, 46 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I think just recording all games you play in, not just ones you finish, would be enough. You can see at a glance if the player tends to drop frequently or not. Then you can make your decision if the game is worth joining.

2510 days, 3 hours, 46 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I think just recording all games you play in, not just ones you finish, would be enough. You can see at a glance if the player tends to drop frequently or not. Then you can make your decision if the game is worth joining.

2510 days, 3 hours, 41 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Not knowing how the host works. Could the host player, make setting all players are allowed that haven't dropped x% of games??

And Tom since you have the emperor pic, I read it with that voice, very creepy.

2510 days, 3 hours, 38 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I don't think it would be hard for Joshua to simply add "Games Started: 10, Games Finished:9" under the "Turns Played, Turns Missed" area of our profiles. Before we start a game we check the other players' profiles & get an idea who we're playing with. I would only add that a "Started Game" is one that a player actually submitted a turn, not just peeked in on.

Once that Started/Finished Ratio is available, then how hard would it be to have some games made accessable only to players with an 85% or greater number? Seems reasonable, would address the issue and might encourage some players to stick it out to the finish. I'll add this idea to the Suggestion box...vote on it if you want to. Maybe it catches Joshua's eye.

On a side note...I am currently on turn 75 of a Melee game that started with 30 players and is down to about 5 or 6 players. Two of them are clearly about to win. If I'm going to finish 3rd place, and this fact is clear, is it bad to 'give' these 2 players some help? Planets left with 1 clan, etc.

When the writing's on the wall, let's just get the dang thing over, right?

2510 days, 3 hours, 35 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: Failed Leadership

Nope, Tom, that's not bad at all. I'd suggest giving your naked planets to whichever one treated you best throughout the game and helping them win.

2508 days, 12 hours, 26 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Failed Leadership

I want to add that for me there is a big difference between players who drop because they are defeated and players who drop because they don't have an optimal starting position or joined without thinking (see current example below in a much wanted slot of a campaign game - there wasn't one word of sorry or at least a good bye). The later kind of drops should be punished because these guys totally ignore that they harm other players. But it's not simple for a computer system to distinguish.

9/29/2012 6:26:11 AM

Turn 10

zero000 has resigned from The Rebel Confederation.

2508 days, 11 hours, 17 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Emork brings up an important distinction. I understand this is "only a game' as Tom Graves states, but the investment of hours and months in each game should add some courtesy and consideration for other players. When I dropped out of a game recently at turn 60 it was clear the Borg had things well in hand. Since he had no declared alliance, it could be another month or two of skirmishes, mine laying, and losing battles to cubes that get chunneled wherever needed. Sorry, but for me...time to move on. I let all other players know in advance, then I resigned and congratulate the victor.That game is at turn 70 now, one month later, and the Borg is at 174 planets.

I've also been in what I thought was an undeclared alliance with a player who had ships in route to trade with me, who suddenly resigned at turn 22 with not one word. I actually thought something drastic might have happened to the guy in real life, except I latter see he's back chatting in the forums. Needless to say I know his tendencies and won't ally with him again.

2508 days, 9 hours, 40 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Umm, I'm new here. Playing in my first set of games ... soooo .... take that into consideration with this response.

But I wonder if there isn't an easier solution for the problem. If you want people to stick to the bitter end, why not simply make it more attractive to stick it out to the bitter end? Right now it seems to be a problem that people can earn enough of the "meta-awards" (achievements/experience/campaign supplies) by playing for some number of turns and not sticking it out. Flip that. Perhaps there should be less achievement/experience/campaign supplies earned per turn; and some sort of bonus that's worth earning for sticking it out. You could slot the "end of game" bonuses to make it valuable to end at position 8 over position 9.

At the least something like this would be simple (incorporating the already existing incentive structure); and as someone who is new (having played VGAPlanets 3 back in the mid 90s) and just found this site - umm, simpler would be better.

2508 days, 9 hours, 35 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

its not the distinction that is the problem tom. its how you leave that galaxy for those who continue to play it.

in either case lost the game, or predicting the loss in the next two months. regardless the circumstance, do you leave your ships in the galaxy to be captured as booty? do you leave your many bases and starbases as a prize? this is where the game gets totally annoying.

for you... you see it as simply a loss and decide to vacate doing nothing more, show no concerns for anyone else in that game when you leave the prize bases and ships open for capture, totally shifting the balance of the game.

there is so many power shifts in a game and most of them are related to DROPPED PLAYERS who have care not for the other players in the game.

crystals captureing multiple priv mcbrs, these two races never even fought, he built to turn 30 or so then just quit leaving the inferrior crystals a fortitude of prizes that ultimately caused a power shift in the game. the crystals were slowly being wiiped out by the robots. and would of been anhiliated by the bots, thats how the game was looking anyhow.... until a dropped who cared not for his other players ina game shifted the power by dropping out and not destroying his prizes. the robots and nearly extinct now, and the feds are doing what they can. but looks like the crystals are gonna runa away with this game that they would have lost. if the privs had dropped out properly.

im sure the bots arent happy about the dropped players. but i bet the crystals are. and they are probably following that dropped player in game after game in hopes he will drop again.

i dotn dislike the reason you drop, i dislike the fact that you leave prizers when you do so. respect the game, respect the players. dismantle your ships before you do so.

Eeon

2508 days, 8 hours, 51 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

eeon, I see some valid points & didn't drop this particular game without a lot of consideration. It was the first time I've resigned in nine games started at NU. It was frustrating for a senior officer's game to allow the Borg unfettered growth as he convinced his neighbor's to leave him alone. By mid-game he was in control of the southern half of the map and there was zero chance of him NOT winning. His road to 200 planets would be a slow, boring process IMO due to all his treaties. It was an odd case of a powerful army winning a battle here, and a battle there against 1 or 2 opponents, while the other races sat around and watched.

That being said, I DID return my ships to planets I owned, gave other ships to friendly neighbors. Next time I will consider your idea destroying ships, but not sure that helps the cause in this case...just delays the inevitable.

2508 days, 8 hours, 31 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

my input may of seemed to be pointed at you but specifically it was not. and yes there is an argument for what i said, if you dissable the ships that leaves nothing for a replacement, but in my opinion if a player quits without seeking his own replacement, there is probably a reason, either lack of concern for the players involved in the game or the definate possbility that its a loseing war and no one will replace him. but again if thats the opinion.... then i reccomend that all those who quit for this reason, simply land and dissasemble their ships to help keep the game balance fair. anyone who does this before quiting the game will have definately earned some respect from me.

with that said, there does appear a need for a reward or bonus for those who do stick it out. and for those who disamble thier ships before quitting. dissambleing your fleet thus reducing your ship count to zero before quitting should allow you to earn a portion of those rewards ( whatever they would be ) that would otherwise be none.

Eeon

2508 days, 8 hours, 7 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Failed Leadership

Eeon, even if you recycle all your ship and destroy all your bases before dropping you still unbalance the game. In most cases there is one neighbour who benefits a lot from the new empty space. Or there is one race far away which benefits a lot because it's natural enemy dropped.
Think about a game where Fed and Lizard drop at turn 10. Both races recycle all their ships and destroy their homeworlds. Despite of that this game is no more balanced but is a 90% easy win for the Pirates. There is one thing that many (new) players don't realize and therefore join/drop without regrets:

This game is only balanced if all races start playing with considerable effort until they are defeated.

(Defeat doesn't mean that you have to fight until the last ship. I regard myself as defeated when I'm sure I can't avoid ending the game with zero planets and I can't significantly harm the agressors when putting effort into defense.)

If e.g. the Colonies decide to destroy the Feds and the Lizards and no other race which depends on trading Lokis interferes then the Pirates win because their opponents played badly. But if the Loki races just drop then the Pirates win just because of being lucky. And most of the remaining races have no options but to lose. In many cases one will ally with the Pirates and all other will also drop sooner or later. But this has nothing to do with skill and therefore not much with having fun playing a strategy game.

2508 days, 7 hours, 44 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

yes its only balanced if all races play til the bitter end. my latest comments were relating to if your gonna quit, do it right. cant stop someone from quitting. but perhaps we can try to maintain some balance. if not all.

2507 days, 16 hours, 27 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: Failed Leadership

Eeon, I agree that an automated and 100% solution can't be achieved. I also agree that despite of that something should and could be done to lower the number of ignorant drops.

One correction to your interpretation of my last comment: I don't think that a race has to fight until the bitter end. If the race can't defend any more and finds no help from other races then it is in my opinion ok to drop and leave some bounty to the successful conquerer.

There are (rare) situations in which even the current score leader can find himself totally helpless. It happened once to me when I as a Rebel with 50% military score couldn't do anything against a Privateer-Colonist team attacking me. Lizards and Klingons were dead, Feds refused to answer since ages and the Crystals cooperated with the Privateer-Colonist team - all this despite of max allies = 1. So instead of spending numerous hours to play 50 more turns and cry every turn about a stolen Rush I resigned. Of course I announced this in the game forum and explained my reasons.

2498 days, 10 hours, 34 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I went to a place where the internet was no readily available and had to resign from all my games. Some I was in last place and some I was the clear leader.

I had no option and wouldn't like to be placed at a disadvantage as it was a decision I did not want to take.

2497 days, 16 hours, 29 minutes ago

star72066

RE: Failed Leadership

I really believe that there should be some deterent to dropping, even if it is as small as a blemish on the profile. A drop should equal an automatic numerical finish accordingly, minus those dead or dropped prior to the drop. So, if it's turn 15 and a player decides their planets suck and the game won't be fun for them and they drop, their finish is recorded on their profile in place 11. If a player drops and one player is dead or has dropped before them, then the finish is place 10 and so on.

Dropping has a negative effect on games, and therefore it has a negative effect on the overall community, as the quality of games and the accurate recording of those games, leads to a more rewarding experience for most and therefore a more rewarding site.

And why shouldn't a drop be recorded as a finish? It solves the "resignation" drop as the player who drops in these instances is fairly sure his game is over and he will not place any higher than he already sits. It also would lead to more people hanging on and fighting on for another rank in place or finish, as I'm inclined to believe most players care about the quality look of their profile. (I know I do and play every game to finish as high as possible - I like all those 1's on my profile and would fight like mad to keep an 11 off it.

I think in the end, if you record the place of finish upon the drop, you'll achieve much less dropping and much more fighting for place or rank in these games, which will lead to a lot more contested games, a lot less dropping, and a stronger site and game overall !

It's counter productive to the quality of the game and the web site that the current profile results, not only do not deter dropping, but encourages it, to keep a "bad" number off your finishes. This should be changed, as I believe while not solving the problem completely, you will seriously reduce the problem which in turn will lead to an overall better game and site. Not to mention a more accurate record of the players.

Support this idea in a strong way and build a more rewarding game and site for all.

People love statistics and the more you can find and accurately record on their profile, the more attractive your site will become to all and the more retaining value you will have amoung its players. Start pinning medals underneath names to the left of posts - 5 games won medals - Championship Winner medals - etc. etc. etc. and you'll have this site growing and you'll keep players here and playing. Reward your players with flashy profile stats and medals for winning and you'll have a stronger game and site.

Thats my thoughts.... I mean otherwise, it's just a game and boredom sets in and people move on and soon the site is a ghost town and not worth it to even keep up and running.

I know it works, because in the yesteryears of winplan, a host named Mark Rendl created a website that recorded the stats and finishes, with standings and achievements, of the players in his series and not only was the retainage level of players in this series nearly 100% but he couldn't manage/host enough games to keep up with all the new players wanting to join his series. Exsisting players were always given first choice at a game in the series and hardly, if ever, was a spot ever open for new players. It was all the achievements, rankings, and stats that we were all after that kept us playing.

-Star

Some example stats : Average finish Ranking = Total Added Finishes / Number of games. (1.66)

Average length of games played = Number of turns/Games played (82.2)

Individual stats on each game - Total Clans / Tonnage destroyed or Tow-Captured / Starbases Destroyed / Planets captured / etc. etc. Medals and Rewards for having the most for each race for a single game. etc. etc.

2497 days, 4 hours, 45 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

The logic flaw of all those that wish to punish is that they believe people actually care about their scores and their place on the leader board. I am certain there are players that attach importance to this, but most folks that are willing to drop despite the fact that it inconveniences their fellow players do not care about whether they are 32 or 320 on the leader board.

It is a game, it is about having fun. Have fun, Stop stressing about things outside your control, like other human beings.

Maybe a reward instead of a punishment would work better.

Tom

2497 days, 3 hours, 20 minutes ago

star72066

RE: Failed Leadership

I really don't view it as a punishment and I truely believe your the minority in not caring about an accurate record of games played. I can't see what is so unfair or wrong about giving a drop its proper scoring on the record.

And I agree, combine that change with an extensive reward system. Medals would be great.

Currently, the records system rewards dropping, this is flawed. Record the drops into the records or throw away the records completely. I also do not believe it is outside my control, or I wouldn't waste my words here lobbying for it.

Recording the drops into the records will see less drops, better games, and a better overall site. I truely believe that. I gotta believe the majority wants better games, and a better overall site.

-S

2497 days, 0 hours, 9 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

@quatarkid:
My suggestions takes care of this:

"Players can always have their bad karma cancelled, if they contact a developer and ask for it.
No need to demand explanations, having to write to the developers would be enough to get rid of most dropouts. I would rather have one manipulative liar playing on, than to have one honest player with a harddrive crash and bad typing skills to be wrongfully punished."

@ Tom Graves:
If people dont care about their score on the leader board, what other kind of reward will they care about ?

2496 days, 12 hours, 55 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

There is no reward that is going to motivate every player and assure that people do not drop from games.

What keeps me from dropping is entertainment value, a social relationship with other players (alliances, but more importantly I like the person), vengeance.

I think rewarding players that finish games, especially when they finish games in places 4 or below with some type of perks, extra campaign bonus points, special naming rights (being able to name planets or something similar), being granted access to special games, etc. could all go a long way toward minimizing dropping. However, it will never be able to stop it completely.

So, what I have always said remains true. Expect drops, don't sweat drops.

Tom

2496 days, 12 hours, 5 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I agree with star, log the drops and resignations. However maybe you don't need change the placing to 10th or 11th, as it's also informative if you see a guy consistently drop if he's in 3rd or 4th place.

As an example, star and I are in a war. If he looked at my profile and compared my history to the guy on his eastern border he might have chosen to ride east (towards a player that has since resigned). I also might have chosen not to try to team up with that guy vs star.

Also before joining a game, you can scan other players resumes and decide is this the group of people you want to play with.

2496 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

There are a lot of good ideas here. I think that there should be some indication of those who drop or who sign in, check out their position and then drop right away if the location does not suit them. If there is no ding for doing that then why should the rest of us just not start doing the same thing? I know that I am in a few games that I grudgingly play just because I think that it would be wrong to drop, so,.... why not just dump them?

There should be something, anything to show a players record on this contentious isue. The developers show leadership on this.

2496 days, 10 hours, 35 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I think just logging all games played, whether dropped or not, is sufficient. Then the players can make up their own minds by looking at the current roster.

Even a % completed (player has started 12 games, been killed off in 2 and dropped 2) gives him an 8/10 or 80% rating (don't count the being killed one way or the other (like a walk isn't an at-bat in baseball) :>

2496 days, 8 hours, 41 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

well, showing players drop rate would indeed be a very good start.

Next step would then be to set up some "Die Hard" games, where only people with a low drop percentage can join.

I guess my next game at planets.nu, will be a private game, where i invite players to sign the
"Die hard" charter before they join.
I should be able to find lots of players for such a game in this thread....

but it still leaves out all the new players that doesnt find this thread on the forum...
We need a way for them to join "Die Hard" games aswell.

2496 days, 8 hours, 37 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Setting up games like that and posting periodically on the forums to let people know the game dynamics I think will see what sort of support/participation you could garner.

Just because people don't sign up doesn't mean they wouldn't like to. I have 4 games running right now, which is very definately my upper capacity and my most advanced game likely has another 60 turns in it, so I won't be joining any new games for a long time (unless someone kills me off, I guess) :>

2496 days, 8 hours, 33 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I'd play a die hard game too, but not for a few months as I have a full slate of games at the moment.

2496 days, 8 hours, 29 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

I agree that a lot of the problems will be lessened once we take drops out of the shadows and log them on players' profiles, but I'm still not able to choose who I enter games with unless I want to wait until all the other slots are filled and then get stuck playing whatever race is leftover.

Add/drop logging will add accountability and a reward/medal system will improve player satisfaction. I think both have an important place here at .nu.

2496 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes ago

star72066

RE: Failed Leadership

No Bluejay you mistake me - When you Drop the game, whatever place your in, whether your one of three left when you drop, record that place on your profile. If you drop first before anyone is killed record the finish as 11. If you drop/resign and only three others are left that have not been dropped or killed, record 4th. If you start a game, you get a result on your record.

Just a straight drop percentage doesn't work. It can't take into account a beaten position and a resignation. Nobody wants to play to the last planet, when the position is obviously lost. I see no problem with resignation under these conditions.

I take offense, to the players who start 8 games, pick the 2 where they get Insectoid Unity/ Bov Unity i.e. the best positions of the eight and drop the other six on turn 5-15.

Please, Joshua - Record a DROP on the profile in the place the drop occured. If that is 11 thru 2nd whatever place at the time of the DROP, record it. It would be that simple. It would easily identify a player as a dropper and not a resignationer. There is a difference.

If you start a game, YOU GET A RESULT. It really is that simple.

-S

2496 days, 6 hours, 8 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

Record it as dropped but also record the turn number. If you see someone drops frequently by turn 5 then you know they are just hunting for incredible starts. If you see someone dropping frequently by turn 30 you know they run whenever they see first combat.

2496 days, 6 hours, 4 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

And if you see someone dropping frequently several turns after I join a game, it means they're likely getting their butt kicked.

2496 days, 4 hours, 0 minutes ago

star72066

RE: Failed Leadership

LOL - Darth. Amen brother.

-S

2494 days, 2 hours, 36 minutes ago

RE: Failed Leadership

+1, give players enough info (about other players) to decide if they want to join a game and make a major time commitment. It's disrespectful of players to drop a game and leave others to clean up their mess. The culture of VGAP.NU suffers from this lack of respect.