Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...

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1826 days, 18 hours, 2 minutes ago
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siggi
Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Fascist Double Beam Carriers.

The truth behind the hype:

After seeing a lot of people claiming that Fascist double beams were overpowered , and in fact one player quitting planets

altogether because of them , I feel like sharing some hard facts about them and dispelling some myths.

A Fascist carrier is far from invincible. In fact a Fed carrier will in most cases eat them for breakfast.
To show that I compiled some statistics to show you the odds of a Fascist carrier winning battles against other carriers.
First against regular carriers and second against Feds. I did have statistics for Lizard carriers too but seem to have misplaced

them , suffice it to say that my preliminary results indicated they were on somewhat even terms.
I found the results somewhat surprising and they seem to prove that Double Beams are in no way overpowered or

unbalanced.

The results below are rounded up since carrier vs carrier battles can be completely unpredictable.
I gathered the data by simulating the combat around 30-50 times per carrier , wich sounds insane and probably is.
So it's the "likeliest" result of any given battle but there really is no such thing as a guaranteed victory.
The percentage is the chance of the Fascist carrier winning the battle.
In all cases both carriers were full of fighters , keep in mind that the less fighters there are the more chance the Fascist has.
In some cases the odds of victory are 1% or 99%. Those odds mean that the carrier won or lost 100% of the time but , again ,

sometimes weird things happen.


Fascist Virgo:
On the left:

VS Gorbie 70% VS Biocide 60% VS Golem 65% VS Rush 75% VS Virgo 99%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 15% VS Biocide 20%* VS Golem 35% VS Rush 35% VS Virgo 90%

*Surprisingly there's also a 15% chance of both ships blowing up. Wich is pretty high in my opinion. And makes the win rate

of the Bio only 65%.

Fascist Rush
On the left:

VS Gorbie 75% VS Biocide 65% VS Golem 80% VS Rush 80% VS Virgo 95%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 20% VS Biocide 25% VS Golem 25% VS Rush 35% VS Virgo 55%

Fascist Golem

On the left:

VS Gorbie 70% VS Biocide 60% VS Golem 70% VS Rush 90% VS Virgo 95%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 30% VS Biocide 20% VS Golem 30% VS Rush 50% VS Virgo 85%

Fascist Biocide

On the left:

VS Gorbie 85% VS Biocide 95% VS Golem 80% VS Rush 95% VS Virgo 99%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 70% VS Biocide 60% VS Golem 70% VS Rush 70% VS Virgo 99%

Fascist Gorbie

On the left:

VS Gorbie 80% VS Biocide 85% VS Golem 85% VS Rush 99% VS Virgo 99%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 35% VS Biocide 55% VS Golem 70% VS Rush 80% VS Virgo 99%


As you can see from these results Fascist carriers are indeed powerful but not overpowered.
Their main advantage is a high win rate on the right side compared to regular carriers , one aspect of the left side advantage is of course that the left side shoots down more fighters. Double Beams do a nice job of offsetting that.
And now a look at Fascist vs Feds.
Same method as before , % chance of Fascist winning . Only this time the results are a LOT different.

Fascist Virgo

On the left:

VS Gorbie 1% VS Biocide 5% VS Golem 5% VS Rush 20% VS Virgo 30%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 1% VS Biocide 1% VS Golem 5% VS Rush 1% VS Virgo 15%

Fascist Rush

On the left:

VS Gorbie 15% VS Biocide 15% VS Golem % VS Rush 20% VS Virgo 30%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 1% VS Biocide 1% VS Golem 5%* VS Rush 30% VS Virgo 35%

Again with a 15%chance of both ships blowing up.

Fascist Golem

On the left:

VS Gorbie 45% VS Biocide 25% VS Golem 25% VS Rush 30% VS Virgo 55%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 1% VS Biocide 5% VS Golem 20% VS Rush 10% VS Virgo 30%

Fascist Biocide

On the left:

VS Gorbie 30% VS Biocide 35% VS Golem 55% VS Rush 45% VS Virgo 70%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 1% VS Biocide 1% VS Golem 15% VS Rush 5% VS Virgo 50%

Fascist Gorbie

On the left:

VS Gorbie 25% VS Biocide 25% VS Golem 50% VS Rush 50% VS Virgo 60%

On the right:

VS Gorbie 1% VS Biocide 1% VS Golem 30% VS Rush 30% VS Virgo 60%


Now I've never heard anyone complain that the Fed bonus is overpowered , but a lot of complaints that Double Beams are.
I think this should put it in perspective.......

Conclusions should be obvious, Fed Bonus kicks Double Beams ass.

I have also tested the this on torp ships but this is long enough as it is so I won't list all my findings there.
Suffice it to say that in torp vs torp ship battle Double Beams give a slight advantage. It is *very* slight however. While it's on par with the Fed bonus in torp battle it's vastly inferior to the Lizard bonus.
Other obvious conclusion is that sometimes I have waaaay too much time on my hands :)
1826 days, 16 hours, 42 minutes ago
View bacchus's profile
bacchus
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
I'm not commenting, per se, on the double-beams being over-powering, just your assessment that because the Fed combat bonus is more powerful, therefore the Fascist bonus shouldn't be considered over-powering, keep in mind that the Fascists have other powers that the Feds do not.

It isn't about whether a specific bonus or ability is more powerful than another, it is about whether the collection of abilities for each race is too powerful. The Fascists have a stronger economy than the Feds do, they have cloaking vessels, and they can capture planets via ground assaulting from those cloaked ships. They have Glory Devices, which will even work against Bird cloakers (the Feds are vulnerable to the Birds).

You might be able to argue that the Fascist double-beam advantage is not over-powering, but just selecting a single other advantage another race has and saying "that one is more powerful" does not reflect the true balance.
1826 days, 16 hours, 27 minutes ago
View bondservant's profile
bondservant
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Thanks Siggi! Helpful to see.
1826 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
@Bacchus
The comparison with Feds was not really meant that way , it was thought to dispel the myth that Fascist carriers were some sort of never before seen superweapon.
If I wanted to make some sort of comparison how another race has a lot more power and compare them to the Fascist I would have gone with the Borgs ;)
And I disagree that Fascist have a better economy than Feds. Having played both that's just not the case. Not that fascists have a bad economy either.

But just to be clear. Fascists can and should defeat the Feds anytime the two of them go head to head. And I absolutely agree that Fascists have a whole lot of powers and abilities at their disposal.
Overpowered though....no. What they lack and in my mind makes them balanced is any sort of brute strength. Their capital warship , the Vickie , is no match for any of the other capital ships excepting the Privs.
And their pride and joy , the Glories , require skill , timing , patience and frankly luck to be effective. Think about this. Sure you can kill a fleet of carriers with 10 Glories. But if you fail to intercept their fleet you'll lose your Glories.
No other race has to deal with the fact that if you fail your attack you'll lose a fleet of ships and gain nothing in return.

I'm not saying the Fascists are'nt powerful and 2xBeams made them more so.
I play them a lot and can safely say that they can hold their own against any other race , except for maybe the Rebels.
But their power relies on , again , a lot of skill , patience , timing and luck.
1826 days, 14 hours, 20 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
One question, does 'RGA' really increase native happiness 30 points?? Is there a way to 'RGA' your own planets? If they can, then they really don't need anymore advantages, the 2x beam is a fair advantage in my opinion.
1826 days, 14 hours, 16 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
... sigh, 'RGA' is Rebel abilitity, Fascists Pillage.
I didn't sleep last night...
1826 days, 14 hours, 9 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
But to answer your question yes the Rebels can RGA their own planets. And yes it does increase happiness by 30.
1826 days, 11 hours, 4 minutes ago
View andy44's profile
andy44
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Interesting analysis Siggi, I would agree that by itself double beam isn't as 'overpowered' as the Fed Bonus. But one factor working in the Fascists favour is that when they're on offense they'll almost always get the left side in carrier battles since the Fascists can simply set their ships to "Pillage Planet" and force their opponents to initiate combat.

Similar to the Rebels, this is a decisive advantage the Fascists enjoy, though it doesn't often often come into play since the Fascists don't have any heavy carriers on their ship list. Of course, team games and 'advanced cloning' in campaign games is a different matter.
1826 days, 10 hours, 39 minutes ago
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kozack
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
In addition, the main problem is: if you are fighter race, then there is no matter how many fighters have your starbase- one ill wind (medium fascist) can kill it safe. if you are torper race, then you may rely on your cloack (or anticloack) ability, but if you are a fighter race- you can not. For me -double beam is not overpowered, except of Full stocked SB vs Ill wind (and vicky of couse).Fascist have pillage for this already.
1826 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes ago
View j-zan's profile
j-zan
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Siggi, thank you! For compiling the data and making this case. I've never thought the sky was falling with the double beams, and I'm happy to see the data to help reflect that.

Kudos!

p.s Glyn, The Rebels can RGA their own planets; and it's damn useful. But there is a "control" built in: the -60 colonist happiness. Civil war can be rough.... ;)
1826 days, 9 hours, 56 minutes ago
View coldblooded's profile
coldblooded
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
What Double Beams really does is make the Fascist super good at attacking starbases now. Starbases have a more limited fighter storage than the Super Carriers and most of the Heavy Carriers.

Also with planets not moving closer in a fight the have more distance to travel to the fascist ship thus giving them more beam shots. I'm not sure maybe someone can confirm this but I believe that a Vickie with Mark 7s has a 90+(*if not 100%) against a starbase, which is outstanding for such a cheap ship to produce. I've yet to lose a Vickie to a Starbase regardless of size of planet.

Against Bases is where this skill truly shines in my humble opinion.
1825 days, 5 hours, 19 minutes ago
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kozack
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
i can cofirm it. vicky mk7 wins 300 dp (borg base) maxed base in 90%. (evil gorbie have just 70%). vicky mk7 always win against maxed -non homeword bases .(160 dp, 13000 clans). moreover, ill wind mk7 transwarp disruptor + saber shield generator wins with 90 % chances against 113 dp ( 5000 clans) maxed base without lost any ship.
1825 days, 5 hours, 8 minutes ago
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kozack
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
i think the double beams must be limited that it will not work against planets. or, at least, against planetary fighters.
1825 days, 2 hours, 36 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
I support Kozack's suggestion. Fast beams should be restricted to ship-to-ship battles. At least I would put this on the list of things to observe.
Fast beams are brutal against starbases and this causes a very fundamental chance of the game dynamic. Really fundamental. Really!
1825 days, 2 hours, 19 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Fascist have never had trouble with starbases. They just pillage them and then ground assault them. I don't see fast beams being a issue against planets/Bases
1825 days, 2 hours, 15 minutes ago
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jarosh
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
The other solution may be: allow fascists ships fire on fighters with full recharged only... with double beam it will lead fascist will fire on fighters like all others races... At least, we can divide "double beam" advantage into two part: "double beams, but fires on fighters full recharged only", and "fire on non-planetary fighers with 50% recharge".
I think its more aestetic solution.
1825 days, 1 hours, 56 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
To be frank, I've done my level best to avoid tangles with campaign Fascists ever since a single double-beam Vickie took out four of my Virgos (100 fighters on each) without taking a scratch (and that with the left-side carrier advantage in three of the four combats). I simply hope their on the other side of the bloody map, or make nice if their not... and if that doesn't work, either see if a nearby Crystal wants to help out, or just mine the ever-living crap out of space and hope that deters them.
1825 days, 1 hours, 38 minutes ago
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tpaz
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
As a Fascist player who has played them for years all I can say to all you whiners about double beams is: boo-hoo.

The Fascists have been picked on since the game started as one of the "wimpy races". They routinely got eliminated first because playing them competently with the abilities they had was challenging. They were often the last race selected to get a game going for the same reasons. Winning with them against skilled opponents was incredibly hard.

Large carrier races, however, were the opposite. Picked first and easy to play. I don't here anyone moaning that the Golem is too big or it's not fair that the Nova doesn't lose weapons to battle damage when it tears up a pair of T-Rexes. Well those abilities are balanced you say. Maybe so, but I think you are just used to it always being that way.

The problem is that now the Fascists are competitive and you actually have to worry about them. After we have a few hundred games of data and the Fascists are winning too many, then you have an argument. Until then I say nut up Nancy or stick to classic games.
1825 days, 1 hours, 31 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
...says the man whose sole completed game as a Fascist was a 1st-place win. Yes, tell me of your sorrows, Tpaz....
1825 days, 1 hours, 30 minutes ago
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pobs
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Sorry Jessilaurn, but I think this is exactly the sort of post that leads to the hype.

Please sim DB Vicky vs a virgo. I just had a quick go and the vicky never won one engagement never mind 4 !!

As the owner of a number of DB gorbies I agree completely with Siggi. They are strong but are far from invincible. After you've spent countless hours trying to negotiate to get one, followed by filling it with 23,000 MC worth of fighters you do expect it to be strong. And then when it has a 15% chance of losing to a plain old Golem it can hardly be described as overpowered.

The fascists are now playable and stand a chance, just look at the game stats to realize that up until double beams they were the 2nd worse race, and now they are probably 3rd or 4th from top.

If people seriously believe they are over powered then try playing them and see how easily you coast your way to an easy championship victory.
1825 days, 1 hours, 29 minutes ago
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tpaz
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
I don't know how old you are or anything about you Jessilaurn, but you know nothing about me either.

I was playing the fascists when you bought the game from Tim and got the 4 3.5" disks in the mail and then emailed every turn in.

My record on Nu has nothing to do with my argument.
1825 days, 1 hours, 24 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Check the leader board for the Fascists, and you'll see that their accomplishments are comparable to the rest.
1825 days, 1 hours, 21 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Pobs: sorry, but that was my direct experience against them, in-game. Four Virgos killed by a lone sodding Vic. I was nothing short of stunned, and have been wary ever since.
1825 days, 1 hours, 20 minutes ago
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pobs
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Next time I suggest you launch fighters
1825 days, 1 hours, 15 minutes ago
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anaconda
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
there must have been some glory device action he did not notice.
1825 days, 1 hours, 10 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Tpaz: been playing since 1994, also with WinPlan 3.5.

Anaconda: no glory device; the damned thing simply ate my fighters as fast as they could launch. Could there have been a glitch somehow? Possible, but gods only know what; I never got through the thing's shields.
1825 days, 1 hours, 0 minutes ago
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tpaz
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Jessilaurn: I don't know why the Vickie ate your Virgos for breakfast. Did it have Saber shield generators with it? Every time I put a Vickie 1v1 with any heavy carrier with 100 fighters, it loses. Even with double beams. If you sim it on PCC2 with the double beams enabled it loses 100% of the time. So either there is a shield generator involved or something squirrely with your game. Either way, it warrants investigating.
1825 days, 0 hours, 53 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
It's been well over a year since it happened, but I *think* there was a Saber co-located with it... and in checking, the player does have the Shield Generator active. That may have been what happened here, and would explain a lot.
1825 days, 0 hours, 44 minutes ago
View smn's profile
smn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Jessilaurn, I lost a few mk8 double beam Vickies against Instrumentalities. You can't have lost a single Virgo to a double beam Vicky.

What happens is that the fighters will overwhelm the Vicky once the distance is closed.

You must be thinking of something else, like double beam Gorbies.

Which game and what turn approximately?
1825 days, 0 hours, 38 minutes ago
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tpaz
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Maybe the combination of shield generator and double beams is an issue. I have no experience with the shield generator so I can't speak on it one way or the other. But it seems to me that if a double beam Vickie can slap a Virgo with the shield generator then it might be over powered.

I am curious what Siggi's results would have been with a Saber or 2 in the mix. A double beam Gorbie with double shields would be horrifying.
1825 days, 0 hours, 30 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
regicide >> Fascist have never had trouble with starbases. They just pillage them and then ground assault them. I don't see fast beams being a issue against planets/Bases

It makes a huge difference if a Klingon ship has to stay 5-20 turns in orbit to pillage down a decent base or if the Klingon can destroy a base with drive by shooting. In the first case the Klingon ships is much more vulnerable to countermeasures. It's no big problem to defend against a pillaging Klingon if you still have a fleet.


jessilaurn >> To be frank, I've done my level best to avoid tangles with campaign Fascists ever since a single double-beam Vickie took out four of my Virgos (100 fighters on each) without taking a scratch (and that with the left-side carrier advantage in three of the four combats)

Can't be. Sometimes fast beams allow a Vicky to fire one more volley of torps against a Virgo - but even that is not guaranteed. No way that a Vicky destroys a Virgo with enough fighters - shield generator or not.
Maybe you remember this wrong? Short after fast beams were introduced we played a campaign game together and my fast beam GORBIE destroyed 3 Virgos and a small tordepo ship of your Colonies. The Gorbie had about 90% shields after the battle (no shield generator involved) and you were not amused.
1825 days, 0 hours, 29 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Smn: it was 47505. Four Virgos (each with 100 fighters), killed by one Vic. That said, I do think the thing may have had shield generator support. If there were *two* shield generators there (again, not sure), that may have been enough for the shields to hold reasonably solid while the fighters were killed off. I remember at the time wishing I'd had full fighter loads on the Virgos, but I've been used to the need to keep supplies aboard to counter Glory Devices and mines, and it was my first major run-in with doubled beams.
1825 days, 0 hours, 28 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Emork: that was a *Gorbie*? I was sure it was a Vic; I remember taking torp hits.
1825 days, 0 hours, 26 minutes ago
View smn's profile
smn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
With double beams, a Vicky launches 18-24 torpedoes. With two supporting shield generators it gets 50% more shield, the additional mass is of no benefit. It thus might be able to live one salvo longer (24-30 torps launched) but that's it.

If we assume the Vicky uses mk7/mk8 and is incredibly lucky firing 5 salvos and hitting with every single one of the torps, that's still a maximum of 30 hits. 7 hits to drop the shields, leaving 23 hits to bring a Virgo to 69% damage. But that is not even close to realistic, 35-45% damage for Virgo is what is likely to happen.
1825 days, 0 hours, 19 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Jessi, I looked it up: http://play.planets.nu/#/sector/47505 Turn 43

I also was wrong. It was Vicky + Gorbie vs. 3 Virgos + Tranquility
The Vicky died against the first Virgo but then the Gorbie took down all other ships.
1825 days, 0 hours, 17 minutes ago
View smn's profile
smn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Ah, I remember Emork publishing that fight. Actually there was a leading Vicky followed by a Gorbie fighting from the left taking out 3 Virgos and 2 small torpers.

Great result for for the Fascist, but also a badly arranged battle order from the Colonial and the Gorbie was left standing almost without fighers, a fourth Virgo would've taken it out.
1824 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Ah, the joy of fuzzy memories. Mea culpa. :)
1824 days, 23 hours, 33 minutes ago
View mjs68508's profile
mjs68508
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Never send a large carrier into battle with less than 200 fighters unless you are trying to get it destroyed.

Got 4 Virgos and 400 fighters? Two should be at the front with 200 fighters each, attacking or feinting or threatening. The other 2 should run away and make more fighters.

Sending 4 Virgos into battle with 100 fighters each is a huge mistake that should be learned from and never repeated.
1824 days, 21 hours, 42 minutes ago
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mechnomaniac
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
unless you are fighting well defended starbases, in which case its exactly what you wanna do...
1824 days, 20 hours, 31 minutes ago
View j-zan's profile
j-zan
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
!!!! Jessiluarn, your "culpa" gave me some interesting self-reflective thinking!!!!

I have a bias: I tend to believe in the following priority when facing Fascists (no double beams).

>200 fighters+supplies for 1 mine hit is better than
<200 fighters+supplies for 2 mine hits.

This means that I'd rather have some damage from a glory hit and the extra fighters than no damage and not having the extra fighters.

I don't know why I have this bias, but I would have stated to someone "Load supplies for 1 mine hit and have 200+ fighters." For example, when facing Fascists, I load my Rushes (typically) with 75 supplies and 200+ fighters (and the rest of the Cargo hold MIGHT be supplies, but is usually clans). I did this with Virgo's and I've done it with Gorbie's.... I imagine I'd do it with Golems and Cube's and....

....anyway. It's a bias - I haven't run the numbers.

Since this thread has some top-level Fascists, does anyone want to validate my bias or prove it wrong? With or without double beams?

My (now, thoughtful) hypothesis is that the bias was possibly inaccurate for regular beams, but might be accurate for the double beams.
1824 days, 20 hours, 8 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
It's accurate for double beams , overkill for regular.
A Vickie with regular beams will shoot down 30-40 fighters , Double beams 50-80 on average.
In a straight up fight , Vickies vs Rushes you'll kill two Vickies and lose to the third. That holds for both regular and double beams.
There is a *very* slight chance that Vickie number two can kill you with double beams. But slight enough that it should'nt be a concern.
I've managed it excactly once and I doubt I'll ever do it again.
The rule of thumb for all Fascist should be to simply not engage with carriers unless you can soften them up with Glories.

But on a personal note if I'm facing Rebels I don't bother with Glories unless I can hit them with at least 4. Preferably I go with 7 for an outright kill but that's not always possible or feasible.
Basically I'd use enough to make sure that you'll start the fight damaged enough so I can finish you off with a single Vickie.
And I'd imagine any skilled Fascist would do the same.
Not that I'm calling myself skilled though :)
1824 days, 19 hours, 50 minutes ago
View j-zan's profile
j-zan
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Ha Siggh! I'd consider you skilled.

My experience is that my bias works just fine out in the game (not worrying about more supplies to deal with glories than 1 mine hit.) Overkill it may be; I simply find it's easier to get supplies from conquered planets to repair than to get minerals to rebuild fighter stocks. You're tactic to not use Glories unless you can hit 4 or 7 fits my experience as well. But Rebels/Rush may be an anomaly, since Rushes have such a fantastic cargo load.

Consider it as a principle with all super-carriers.... 150 Fighters on a Gorbie with 2 mine hits of repair vs 200 with 1? I've set up those fights, and often erred on 200/50 supplies rather than 150/100 supplies. Of course, that was a Campaign game with shield generators and I feared double beams. And it ended before the real combat heated up.
1824 days, 19 hours, 39 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Btw: Thx Siggi! I bookmarked this thread for your battle results.
1823 days, 18 hours, 59 minutes ago
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joeatazo
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Thanks for putting this together, Siggi... Interesting reading.

There are probably too many variables to come up with set statistics on it, but what is your feel for the 2nd combat?

For example, if a 2x beam Gorbie or Biocide beats a standard Virgo 99% of the time in the 1st battle, what happens in the 2nd battle? 2x beam Gorbie or Biocide beats Virgo 75% of the time? Will it swat a 3rd Virgo?

Speaking from experience, it takes about 3 colonial Virgos with ~150 fighters to kill a fully loaded Fascist Virgo.
1823 days, 18 hours, 54 minutes ago
View mjs68508's profile
mjs68508
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
1. You have to use enough glory devices and/or mine hits to get down to 4 fighter bays to make a difference - 4 hits on a Virgo, 6 on all other carriers. It is the fighter bays that determine whether you take out 2 Vickies or 3. Lizards (first 50% damage doesn't count) and Feds (always maximum + 3 fighter bays) make it way extra hard.

2. There seems to be an assumption that big carriers fly solo??? 2 Gorbies or 1 Gorbie + Star Base will kill 3 Vickies with the loss of 1. The Fascists lose 3 ship slots and gain 10 pbp's. The Empire loses 1 ship slot and gains 15 pbp's. Victory for the Empire.

1 Vickie & 1 Gorbie = 1 dead Vickie
2 Vickies & 1 Gorbie = 2 dead Vickies
3 Vickies & 2 Gorbies = 3 dead Vickies & 1 dead Gorbie
4 Vickies & 2 Gorbies = 4 dead Vickies & 1 dead Gorbie
5 Vickies & 2 Gorbies = 5 dead Vickies & 1 dead Gorbie
6 Vickies & 3 Gorbies = 6 dead Vickies & 2 dead Gorbies

All Fascist defeats.

The ONLY advantage of 2X beams is against medium carriers, i.e., star bases. However, this is a HUGE advantage when there are 300+ star bases after turn 100. Just ask the players in Capricorn. Emork better have a comfy throne because that game still has at least 2 years left.

A player who wins with 2X beams and SSG will have won w/o them 90% of the time as far as ship battles are concerned.

As the Fascist in ship battles you have to,"Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee," and, "Get there the firstest with the mostest."

200 fighters should be on every major carrier before it goes off to battle because you never known what battles you will have to fight. You cannot plan on a single battle. The enemy seldom cooperates.

1823 days, 18 hours, 38 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
My feel generally is that on the second fight the Fascist will lose.
And yes there are just too many variables to say anything for certain.
But most of the time when there were carriers of equal strength the Fascist took varying degrees of damage.
A Fascist Virgo against a regular one has a decent chance of taking out two and losing to the third. But I had results from the sims where a second one would kill the Fascist without a scratch.
For that matter I've had real time results that were extreme on both end , i.e. taking down a Virgo from the left without a scratch and taking down a Virgo from the left and taking 98% damage.
Both happened in the game where we were fighting by the way , think those battles were a turn apart or so :)

Carrier battle is just completely unpredictable :)
1823 days, 17 hours, 56 minutes ago
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siggi
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
@MJS probably just put it better than I ever could.

The Fascists just are not well equipped for ship to ship battles.
They need to control the battlefield , tow ships out and take them one at a time. Giving ground and luring enemies in etc.
Double beams and SSG´s are neat tools but don't win battles on their own.

The only way for Fascists to win battles is to always keep the 7 P's in mind.
Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance.
1823 days, 17 hours, 19 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Mjs, of course no commander attacks or defends with single carriers. It's the task of the cloaking captains to isolating carriers by towing. And then it's poker. What has the carrier loaded?
150 fighter and 150 supplies: Saber, Saber + Vicky win with positive PBP result.
250 fighters and 50 supplies: pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, Vicky wins with positive PBP result.
Number vary for different carriers.

I admit it's hard to succeed in towing nowadays when many know the 4 fingers you need to break a tow. Additionally it's harder to take risks in games with many good players. In such games everyone has 35-50 ships after the limit and a Klingon has just 3 or 4 chances for a big popper strike. If he misses he hasn't the critical mass of ships/poppers anymore. Well, Klingons are a race for very special commanders who like/can stand risk :)
1821 days, 4 hours, 43 minutes ago
View ecatoncheires's profile
ecatoncheires
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
... all this fuss about how much Fascists are being 'too powerful' now...

http://play.planets.nu/#/sector/110247/players

... and they still are choosen LAST at any new game! :D
1821 days, 1 hours, 54 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Ecatoncheires: the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
1821 days, 0 hours, 54 minutes ago
View ecatoncheires's profile
ecatoncheires
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
OK, ok, not ANY new game... but I've often sees games struggling to start because of the difficulty of filling EE and Fascist positions... heck, even Birds usually get taken before them, because even if they are weak at the same level, at least they are more fun to play...
1820 days, 20 hours, 9 minutes ago
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anaconda
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
there is absolutely zero races as fun to play as Fascists. if one dont think they are fun, one should learn the magic of Glory Device.

kinda like #MANOWAR ...if one does not like it, one is not listening to it loud enough!
1487 days, 10 hours, 54 minutes ago
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tomprime
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Howdy folks,

I just ran some sims on this and found a major difference between 2X beams and Fed bonuses.

Simmed 2X beam Gorbie vs 3 Virgos, Gorbie on left. Eats all 3 95% of the time!!! (4400 trials)

Fed Gorbie vs 3 Virgos, Gorbie on left. Eats all 3 only 19% of the time. (4400 trials)

My guess is that Fed launching all of those extra fighters does wonders for single combat, but doesn't hold together for the long haul as well. 2X beams kills off those fighters without endangering your own.
Cheers,
Tom the Klingon
1487 days, 2 hours, 32 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
That's certainly been my experience against a Fascist-Cyborg team. Double-beam cubes are simply insane.
1487 days, 0 hours, 42 minutes ago
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anaconda
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
ok, even if I am letting out things I should not - being a member of that mentioned Fascist-Cyborg team - fighting from the right side a Fascist Cube loses glamour very fast when up against another 10/10 super carrier (after a leading torpedo ship from the right, for example). Not that insane anymore, even if the enemy is NOT discusting Federation.
1380 days, 6 hours, 55 minutes ago
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macros the black
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
As a Fed player I have never had problems killing Klingons hard and fast. Double beams don't mean anything against Thors and Novas.

Aside for the banter, I think the issue with abilities is that they do not offset a race with respect to all others. Any race should have one or more "nemesis" against which they can find themselves in trouble. I don't see the Fascists with double beams as a super race without deadly enemies. They are just a little easier to play for those who love direct fights.
1380 days, 2 hours, 59 minutes ago
View tom graves's profile
tom graves
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
The Fascists have always been tough, but required an experienced and capable commander. They are the swiss army knife of races. That being said. They have really changed the dynamic against heavy carrier races. The fine balance between supplies and fighters actually makes the HC races have to think and work a little bit.

Its not just panzer blitz formation anymore!
1380 days, 1 hours, 27 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
Tell me about it. In the wake of the extremely nasty double-beam Biocides in our recent game, my strategy as a Colonial play has turned into the following:

1. Ally with the Fascists.
2. Failing that, wipe the Fascists out as early as possible.
3. Failing that, work diplomatically to keep the Borg and EE from allying with the Fascists.

Because there really is just nothing worse than fighting what amounts to 20-beam, 10-bay carriers.
1379 days, 23 hours, 40 minutes ago
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mule
RE: Fascist Double Beam Carriers. The truth behind the hype: ...Write Reply
For all the discussions on race balance, I think feature "creep" as relates to trades and alliances need much more thought. IMO, a better balanced game would be more likely if things like the SSD ground attack and fascist BDs should be race skills (like crystal web mines) and not ship features.