Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

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51 days, 0 hours, 58 minutes ago

Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Fed Examination:

In another thread, talking about Fed power and whimsical Fed change ideas, @Whisperer suggested looking at this game (Fed victory in Lone Wolf, highly skilled players, 1.94 Diff):

http://play.planets.nu/#/sector/190584

Victory is @Terry_Anderson, who someone suggested has been the top fed player for years.

Terry, I hope I'm not intruding examining your game, but it's a fascinating study.

Points to @Talespin, too, for pointing out that hyper-aggression is the goal. Some interesting things that I found examining the game, and lots of questions.

No surprise, crazy-fast development:
Turn 5: 5 planets, 5 ships, 1 starbase
Turn 10: 10 planets, 12 ships, 3 starbases
Turn 15: 26 planets, 27 ships, 3 starbases
Turn 20: 38 planets, 42 ships, 5 starbases
Turn 30: 52 planets, 108 ships, 9 starbases

But what I didn't expect is some of the ship selection and choices.

- 1st turn is the Brynhild, with the bioscanner in order to find a nearby Gipsodial planet and build the first new Starbase there.
- Captures a Rebel Falcon with a starbase force surrender and capitalizes on that, cloning more by turn 20
- At turn 10, has quite a few war ships but hasn't bothered to put torps or anything other than lasers on them. By turn 20, he's got tech 10 Torps on anything, but still doesn't bother anything but tech 1 beams. Near as I can figure, it's tech 8 torps or bust. Very curious what Terry has to say about Quantum Torps.
- Ship list is surprising to me: Nebulas, Noctures, Missouris, a few Kittyhawk, and Vendettas (why Vendettas? Why? Best that could be built while churning out that many ships?) I'd sort of given up on the Missouri, Vendetta and very low numbers on the Kittyhawks, but now I'll have to think about this again.
- Early in the game, a lot of LDSFs are running around with the mkt fc. Why?

Any thoughts, insights, or answers appreciated for this budding Fed player. I've only been playing for 10+ years, which is small potatoes for some folks here. Certainly most of the players in this game (Tim Wiseman!) exceed that.

51 days, 0 hours, 28 minutes ago

chanain

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

I don't see hyper-aggression there. He fights an early war against the Rebel, and does it well, but it's not the 'four warships in enemy territory by T15' approach suggested by Talespin.

I don't use Vendettas a lot, but I can see why one might. They're a lot cheaper than a Nebula, but they're super cheap and still pack an offensive punch. I've used Nocturnes pretty effectively in the past, too. With high tech Torps, they can do an impressive amount of damage. Once had a Bird enemy pick off a Nocturne with a Dark Wing...but the Nocturne's Mk8s busted up his cloaking device, and I was able to hunt down the DW afterward.

Now that I think about it, with QTs, Vendettas might actually be really potent ships in a number of contexts.

The Missouri, on the other hand, is a super-important Fed ship, for sacrifices against heavy carriers. You don't generally want to use Novas for that purpose, because they're way too expensive with far too high a PP value. For going up against most carriers, combinations of Missouris and Kittyhawks are pretty much the Fed standard configuration.

LDSF with mkt FC: He's probably playing the odds against torpers, and cloakers in particular, figuring that it's the most likely 'special' FC that a stalking enemy might have.

51 days, 0 hours, 8 minutes ago

talespin

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

First off, I never said "hyper-aggression", which suggests ignoring your development. It also doesn't mean producing 4 Missouris and sending them into enemy territory. It means using your mid-range ships (Nocturnes, Nebulas, Diplomacies, Arkhams, etc) to push your boundaries and disrupt the enemy production.

I would also argue that TerryA is being aggressive. By turns 15-20, he's got lots of warships pushing his territory out much farther than most people ever reach by that point. Take a look at your own game and see how many ships you have helping your freighters expand territory at Turn 15.

In that particular situation, he had a lot of space to grow so it looks less aggressive. He could have sent several warships into Rebel space, if he wanted to. He didn't need to because he started with a huge cluster of planets. Do you think the Rebel would have been able to stop 3-4 warships from smashing his economy? Not easily. And if he did, it would drastically slow him down.

***

"...except that every other race that engages in straight-up fights is tougher"

I don't agree with this. You cannot underestimate the strength of Fed Crew Bonus: https://planets.nu/#/howtoplay/adv-fed-crew-bonus.

The +50 combat mass is very strong, putting many Fed ships over 200kts. Aside from Tech 10 ships and EE/Robot carriers, no other ships have 200+ mass.

If a Fed ship gains the right side of battle versus a carrier, it has a 60% chance to gain +360 KTs of combat mass!

These two factors make the Fed ships some of the strongest in the game.

Add in recharging 25% shields between battles and having damaged ships fight with all weapons, and this makes Fed ships the most resilient of any race in the game.

Now take into effect +200% MCs. You can develop planets faster, build SBs faster, produce higher tech launchers faster, produce a larger quantity of torps faster, and cloning is easy.

Your shiplist and abilities make you one of the best allies, so diplomacy is much easier.

But all this takes a very coordinated commander, who very much understands his fleet and his enemies' fleet. I think the Feds are complicated, but if used correctly, are very formidable.

50 days, 23 hours, 26 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Hyper-aggression was me paraphrasing your " the MOST AGGRESSIVE you have ever been" Talespin. But obviously it's all for expansion. Never meant to imply that development is neglected.

I have trouble with the Missouri simply because they run out of fuel so easily, which is why they surprised me. If you can't keep your ship moving... Missouri packs a lot of punch, but if you can't get your sacrifice ship into place, it makes it harder. Fed fuel and mineral problem had led me to all but abandon the Missouri, but I may have to look at that again.

With all due respect Talespin, the Fed bonus is nice, and looks great on paper, but I've played a number of losing campaigns with Feds against carrier races, and it just doesn't stack up to much against the carrier advantage. Considering how cheaply the carriers are made and stocked with fighters, it's just no contest.

Surprisingly, I got a lot more mileage out of the Thor in the sacrifice ship vs. carrier battles, and doesn't suck up as much fuel. There's some luck involved, but a left-side Thor followed by a Nova has a decent chance of busting a Virgo up. Of course, you're playing some guessing games ordering your ships in large fleet battles and Nova vs fresh Virgo hardly makes a dent. While the CoM player in this scenario just has to make carriers fight first and doesn't have to worry nearly as much about combat fight order. (Be interesting to check all this with Quantums, too!)

50 days, 22 hours, 49 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

The more I look at this game, the more I think Terry's ability to efficiently pump out ships from each starbase, each turn, making a useful 'best possible' ship each time, and then getting those ships out there, claiming territory and harassing the enemy's weak spots are the lessons here. At least in the 1st 40 turns.

50 days, 17 hours, 34 minutes ago

chanain

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

"I think the Feds are complicated, but if used correctly, are very formidable." I completely agree with that.

But the right side mass bonus...doesn't really matter to my point. A Nova, right side or not, can't ever solo a heavy carrier. That's just a fact. (With QTs, you get 50% success against Automas, and about 1% success against Virgos, but that's about it.)

Likewise, damaged ships fighting at full strength doesn't help that much in most circumstances with native ships. Fed battleships, against carrier races, are usually one-and-done. (When you get your hands on heavy carriers, on the other hand...then, that matters.)

"Now take into effect +200% MCs. You can develop planets faster, build SBs faster, produce higher tech launchers faster, produce a larger quantity of torps faster, and cloning is easy."

This is true, too...BUT none of it helps in the first 15 turns. You actually need to develop those other planets before you get that advantage. And to offset the mining disadvantage. (And you can't do both. You can't *both* launch a T15 offensive against your neighbour, and still get your LDSFs colonizing and building bases. Not when you're limited to 37 duranium per turn.)

As soon as enemies start fielding heavy carriers, the Feds need to stack specific sets of ships in order to win battles. And most of the carrier races have their own economic advantages: The Borg and Empire might well be vulnerable to an early rush with Nebulas and Vendettas, but the lfm races can put heavy carriers into action very early indeed.

50 days, 17 hours, 10 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

What are "Quantum torpedoes" that people keep mentioning?

50 days, 16 hours, 22 minutes ago

commander koski

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

@Psydev

https://planets.nu/#/post/the-solar-federation-have-invented-quantum-torpedo-technology

@chanain

Here is one of the key things here: for Nova, the right side doesn't give any benefit, it already has big enough mass to get minimal fighter damage. Nova is a good ship against torp races, not carrier races. Against carrier races the Feds should use flimsier ships with combinations and win the priority point battle.

The keys to that are the crew bonus and high tech levels which make the flimsy Fed ships defeat all flimsy ships the opponents have. One key ingredient is that the opponents can't use small sacrificial ships, as they become useless.

If the Feds attack first and manage fuel supply well, they've got a very nice situation.

All this talk makes me want to start a Fed game to show ye how it's done, but I really need to finish my games with the real OP race first, the Evil Empire... :p

50 days, 16 hours, 9 minutes ago

chanain

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Koski,

"Against carrier races the Feds should use flimsier ships with combinations and win the priority point battle."

Yes, I know. In fact, I told Mrchrstn that same thing in my first post in this thread. The point I was making was in response to Talespin's contention that Fed ships are "some of the strongest in the game".

You're right that the strength of lighter Fed ships undermines carrier race cannon fodder...but that doesn't matter that much unless the Feds are also bringing heavy carriers to the party.

50 days, 14 hours, 3 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Can someone point me to a game where someone did this effectively? (In the one game from Terry_Anderson, he doesn't really have to face an incoming attacker with Carriers.) Because I've tried and failed at it a bunch, despite knowing and utilizing the points mentioned above.

50 days, 13 hours, 50 minutes ago

renathras

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Hm, I never really thought about it, but it does seem the strength of the Fed fleet is in the mid-range, not the top end. While other races have either small good ships and no real mid-sized stock ships (Rebels, Colonies come to mind), or no really good small ships but a good mid-sized ship or two (Robots kind of fit here), or even nice top end ships but no really great low or medium combat ships (Borg here), the Feds have solid ships from the bottom of their roster (the Nocturne is a heavy hitter for its size), middle-low (the Nebula is a BEAUTY of a ship), mid-high (Missouri, Diplomacy, Thor, etc), and while their battleship is weak against carriers...it's still tops among battleships (Nova) compared to the other torp races.

Combined with Super Refit, this makes the Fed fleet really flexible, able to match an enemy blow-for-blow all the way up to the Battleship class. People are comparing heavy carriers a lot, but a Nebula can take out most comparable ships, and likewise with the Missouri, Diplomacy, Thor, Kittyhawk, etc. And even on the low end, other than they embarrassingly useless Outrider, the Fed's Nocturne, Vendetta, and Banshee are all decent ships against comparable enemy ones. If I saw a Nocturne with Quantums and on the right side in a just opened VCR, I'd be a little worrie, no matter what of mine it was attacking. You can't really say that about most Tech 1/2/3 ships!

There are some exceptions, of course, like the Fascist Ill Wind Battlecruiser or the Robot Instrumentality, but in general, Fed ships can match pound for pound pretty well, at least on paper.

I don't think looking exclusively at "Your tech 10 could beat my tech 10" is the right approach. It's like political parties that look at the President/Head of State but ignore the Legislature or regional governments. Those heavy carriers bleed Neutronium, and they cannot be fielded in truly large numbers (and, even there, the Feds have an advantage in being able to potentially build more Nova hulls before the ship limit and Super Refit them later - something no other race can do without being allied to them...)

I dunno, I'm clearly no expert, but it does seem to be something I hadn't considered before. They still seem to be a rush race, but not as much as, say, the Birds. Especially since Feds have good ally/vassal options with basically any race in the game. Lawful Good Paladin who likes making friends, indeed.

50 days, 13 hours, 6 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Hi Mrchrstn, I'm always happy to talk strategy and tactics when it comes to the "weaker" races - their limitations are the main reason I picked them to see if they could win in a lone-wolf scenario.
I think Chainan answered your questions fairly well - the Vendettas go against conventional wisdom as a shield scratcher but I prefer them because you'll always come out ahead on priority points.
If my neighbors had been liz or bird, I wouldn't have built very many (I switched to Nova production later for the bird threat).
2 Vendetta plus 2 kitty will dispatch a Rush 95% of the time and sometimes you might not even lose a kitty if you get mass bonus with both vendettas. Unfortunately, in the game you're looking at the battle with Andy44 ended before I could use that combo and they really are only effective against the heavy carriers so I don't have any other game examples on NU.
Last thing: as a fed NEVER convert supplies.

50 days, 13 hours, 1 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

I don't have any experience yet with quantum torps but they sound promising.

50 days, 12 hours, 52 minutes ago

talespin

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

"You can't *both* launch a T15 offensive against your neighbour, and still get your LDSFs colonizing and building bases."

I think this is the single-most important dilemma a non-heavy carrier race faces, because if you do not disrupt that heavy carrier race, then you are probably going to lose (allies aside).

50 days, 12 hours, 15 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

@Mrchrstn: you can look at DieHard 14 -- me Colonial / Ville Kaupinen as Fed. Fed lost, but defend very well without any Nova ;-)

https://planets.nu/#/sector/122600

50 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Thanks, this is all helpful!

@Renathras No argument there. The Fed ship list is killer compared to other Torps and I have no problem getting PP equality in that scenario. It's only against carriers that I'm having that problem. I think arranging the right side was something I didn't consistently do in those games.

@Terry_Anderson Thanks for the tips. I will look more at the Vendetta, for sure! And boy I knew that about the supplies! I'm also wishing that I'd figured out a lot sooner that there's no reason to ever tax colonists after turn 10, either. You want all the growth you can get and native money is more than ample.

@Frostriese thanks for pointing out this game.

23 hours, 38 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

So the Vendettas are not what they are promised here. I sent 2 against a Biocide, followed by 2 Kitties. The 2 Vendettas took off 11% of the shield (total, not each), and the kitties couldn't even take down the rest. I'm switching back to Thors.

23 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Mo/KH/Mo/KH/Mo/KH/Mo....Run against any Heavy Carrier or stack of heavy carriers. Heavy Thors are very nice, also, if you have access to them. Feds need fleets. Never use Novas against carriers. SB busting or BB busting.

22 hours, 42 minutes ago

ndek

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Tom, I have searched the Fed ship list for half and hour now, and still haven't found the answer. What is a 'Mo'???
Mossouri? Mova Class? Morlin? Mocturne??

Please enlighten me. I love to play the Feds, and need some advice how to stack my Kittys.

22 hours, 32 minutes ago

elwood299

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

MO=Missouri
Fighting only one heavy carrier, a Misouri and a KH will bring down the enemy ship. You only lose the MO, while you could probably destroy a Gorbie. Although I will also try the Thor in the future.

22 hours, 24 minutes ago

ndek

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Thanks.
In my experience, the Thor mostly isn't able to launch a single volley (or even a single torp) against a big carrier. A bohemian is better, at least it kills two fighters, instead of one.

22 hours, 15 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

The thor is a lottery ticket.
If you manage to get right side in combat against a carrier, 60% of the time you get the bonus mass of 360 kt, and will do a lot of damage to most carriers.
If you dont get the bonus mass, either by being unlucky, or getting left side, the thor rarely gets to fire a torp....

22 hours, 10 minutes ago

elwood299

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

I see. I better stick to Missouries then. ;-)

22 hours, 8 minutes ago

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

Comparing minerals ... the Diplomacy could be also a nice starter in a stack.

22 hours, 1 minutes ago

ndek

RE: Fed Examination: In another thread, talking about Fed...

And it is much cheaper if you need priority points to build it.