fighters not launching after first wave

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2996 days, 22 hours, 25 minutes ago
View evileympire's profile
evileympire
fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
Hi, battle in Beta 24.  Evil empire SSD vs. DarkWing:  SSD 's fighters stop launching half way through the battle and SSD dies.    

SSD should have destroyed the Dark Wing, it had 20% damage from a mine hit.  SSD started with 48 fighters. 

Would be nice if this bug was corrected, the SSD brought back to life and the Dark Wing killed 

THANKS!
Evil Eympire


2996 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes ago
View james t. plagerism's profile
james t. plagerism
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
I've also seen random weirdness like that, where fighters refuse to launch, or beams refuse to fire. It's apparently being explained off as "random chance" where the beam/fighterbay jams, or doesn't recharge quickly enough to fire again, which has merit over the span of a few ticks, but not over the course of half the battle. I've never seen this kind of behaviour on either THost or PHost games, but I've seen it more than once here.
2996 days, 11 hours, 4 minutes ago
View joshua's profile
joshua
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
So, I double checked this again in great detail. Indeed this is a very odd fight. But this does happen in the original game as well and our code is exactly the same as the original and its written twice, once on the server and once on the client. Both of them behaved precisely the same.  

Let me explain why this weird an unusual behavior can occur, and the SSD and other low fighter bay ships are particularly prone to events like this. 

Warning technical talk to follow:

For each unit of time in a VCR to determine if a fighter is launched host gets a random number between 1 and 20 and then checks to see if that number is <= the number of fighter bays on the ship. If its less, the fighter is launched. This is fine, but where the weirdness comes in is that the random numbers are not actually random, they are picked from a list of 119 values that were hand typed by Tim Wisseman himself. These 119 values are between 1 and 20 but they aren't exactly perfect. In fact, there are only 15 values which are 3 or less. 

Each random event, such as charging a beam weapon increments the random number seed, so that when host goes back to the 119 random numbers between 1 and 20 it gets a different value.

But occasionally, depending on how things go, a sort of loop can form, especially when just beam weapons are firing, where the number of random events between one unit of time and the next is not changing and is also a factor of a multiple of 119 so that the same 3, 4 or 5 random numbers are selected out of the 119 between 1 and 20 during each "loop" of this cycle. 

That is what happened here. So in your battle, there are 18 beam weapons charging and firing and one fighter bay trying to launch and in this weird loop it only hits 5 different values in the 119 random numbers and none of them are <= 3 so none of the fighters launch. Since no other events occurred, like shooting a torpedo the system kept coming back to those same 5 values. 119 is a prime number, but 238, 357, 476.. are not and it is possible to find factors in those values that then repeat on each loop.  

Why do we have this weird 119 random number list? The purpose of this is to enable the host and client programs to calculate the exact same random numbers based on a starting seed number. So that instead of requiring a full recording of all the events in a VCR be sent to the client just the starting values and a starting seed value can be sent and we can replicate the VCR on the client.  

There are many other ways this could be accomplished of course, we could simply add another 1000 values or whatever to the 119 to make this all much more smooth and prevent this kind of weird thing. So we could certainly "fix" it. It simply wouldn't be the way that Tim made it. He typed those 119 values, and they come straight out of the original host program. (hacked out long before VGA Planets Nu)

There is some super VGA Planets details for you... :) 









2996 days, 3 hours, 34 minutes ago
View james t. plagerism's profile
james t. plagerism
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply

Thanks for the technical insight, Joshua.

Now comes the great debate -- is this something that should be fixed? Much as I have great respect for the workings of the original THost, I think if this detailed analysis would've been presented to Tim himself 10+ years ago, he probably would've fixed it. In fact (I would speculate) he quite likely did know about it, but was unable to properly fix it because while it would be quite simple to release a new version of THost, it would be impossible to recall and patch all the clients, so the VCR playback wouldn't match what Host actually did.

Here .nu has a great advantage -- you have control of both the host and the client, and you can rewrite both simultaneously.  I don't this anyone here would object to you rewriting this chunk of code to eliminate this "bug". Winning a battle because your opponent's torpedoes missed, that's random chance and lucky for you. Winning the battle because your opponent's fighter bays got into a prime number seed value loop... that seems unfair and spoils the fun. We all hate cheaters and that seems awfully close to the host itself "cheating".

2996 days, 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
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ronnle robot
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply

Or should this be considered just another factor of war in the game? Weapons jam up and won't fire? Fighter bay doors get stuck and won't open to let fighters launch? Torpedos that have been in storage for too long won't fire and get stuck in the tubes? As long as it is a rare occurence I suppose anything can happen and it might even add a little to the challenge of the game.

2996 days, 3 hours, 11 minutes ago
View james t. plagerism's profile
james t. plagerism
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
Torpedoes not always hitting their target; variable beam weapon recharge rate and firing timing; enemy fighters taking out fighters en route -- these are intentional randomization events that prevent identical battle results, and keep the fighting a little "interesting".  A Cat's Paw taking out a Gorbie because the Continuum prevented them from launching fighters?  That doesn't seem right.
2995 days, 22 hours, 29 minutes ago
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skizo
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
Ugh. The reason behind this recurrent anti-randomness seems to be even more obscure than I would have ever guessed... I for one would really like to know what on Earth  was Tim really thinking when he came up with this weird way of doing this since the ability to get the same series of pseudo-random numbers would just require using the same pseudo-rng with the same seed every time that specific series is desired - and using this "normal" way of doing things the results would be much more random-like (but still far away from being really random - "to calculate the exact same random numbers" is impossible by definition :)) and more importantly the probability of the pseudo-rng "getting stuck" this bad should be practically non-existent.

Interestingly this behaviour can apparently swing both ways - in some situations I've seen ships with just few fighter bays launching fighters like mad!

2995 days, 22 hours, 18 minutes ago
View joshua's profile
joshua
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
You also frequently get a situation where the fighters do not launch at all until the beam weapons fire to change the seeding. So it seems like they are saving the fighters until the last second.
2995 days, 22 hours, 16 minutes ago
View joshua's profile
joshua
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
Remember.. this was back in 1991... things were a little different back then... ;)  


2995 days, 20 hours, 31 minutes ago
View evileympire's profile
evileympire
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
well, thanks for the insight. I guess it'll be a while before I see that situation happen again.  One of those sucky things that could happen in the game. It just happens to come at a really bad time.  

guess the birds plugged the fighter bay doors up with their torps ...

2995 days, 20 hours, 25 minutes ago
View jobo's profile
jobo
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
I warned you not to mess with my birds evileympire ;)

Was wondering about that fight myself, good to get that sorted out.

Regards
2995 days, 19 hours, 52 minutes ago
View evileympire's profile
evileympire
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
yeah, you lucky duck!   well, if I don't give you a few whacks now, the crystals will certainly finish the job ...  

actually i'm kind of bored with this game at this stage as all I can do is fight to the death with no chance of winning, as nobody wants to ally and against the the top player crystals.   on top of that, I accidentally was dropped from the game, so I've lost all points for playing and probably get no points for finishing which sucks as my motivation to stay near the top on the leader board just dropped away.... ah, c'est la vie.  

thanks for the rant space! 

l
2995 days, 15 hours, 20 minutes ago
View chaos1357's profile
chaos1357
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
Any chance that this will get rewritten?  I know it sounds like it occurred in timhost, but honestly, I never saw, or even heard of, it happening.  Maybe he had some sort of check system in place to watch for such loops and artificially adjust them when they occurred?
2995 days, 15 hours, 8 minutes ago
View james t. plagerism's profile
james t. plagerism
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply

If Joshua says that's how Tim wrote it, I'm sure it was. However, like others, I've seen this odd behavior here more than once after playing only a hundred turns or so, and yet in thousands of turns of VGAP over the decades I don't recall noticing this on actual THost games. I can't explain why.

If I were Joshua, what I'd do is come up with a simple rewrite of that code chunk to generate better pseudo-random sequences (even something as simple as a better-distributed list of 120 values) and send Tim a quick email to get his blessing on the fix. Then it becomes official canon, and you can't argue it's not "TimHost" authentic, and we have a better-working game.

2995 days, 7 hours, 22 minutes ago
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skizo
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
What is the method used for determining when those other pseudo-random events happen? Since "Each random event, such as charging a beam weapon increments the random number seed" for the fighter launching randomizer (or to be more accurate, increment the index for he look up table of those not-so-random numbers...)  could it be possible that the way those other events are determined could cause the look up table system to end up working differently from the original version?

Since Tim hand picked those numbers for that table it could have very well been that he selected them by a process of trial and error in order to get the desired behaviour with the specific pseudo-rng he used for determining the timing of those other events - and that pseudo-rng most certainly is different from the one used for .nu implementation.
2993 days, 4 hours, 26 minutes ago
View kosh's profile
kosh
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
In WinPlan that was often that 1-2-3 beans dont shoot.
Or they dont lauch all fighters. And they activate only when some hit the vessel.
Reason unknown but well known problem.


2316 days, 20 hours, 2 minutes ago
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ginkas
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
Well... how to say it... THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE.

I'm newbie to planets.nu but I have tons of turns over my shoulders (playing and hosting) and as others have said, I've never heard of such thing. Not with Tim Host, neither with PHOST, and always using Winplan.

Last turn a SS Cruiser not launched any of his fighters (destroyed by a weak planet and lost 80 fighters), and this turn another SS Cruiser only launched his fighters one by one until the very end of the battle loosing more fighters than necessary.

Two of two turns in the first game in planets.nu and zero of hundreds with THost/PHOST?

No way.
2316 days, 18 hours, 2 minutes ago
View donaldworrell's profile
donaldworrell
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
i vote to leave it the way tim wrote it.  why?  because it gives the battles randomness.  You can not predict for sure if you will win a battle or not.  you have to take a risk and hope for the best.  

sometimes a gemini with one fighter bay will launch the max amount of figters.  when that happens it is a beatifully thing.
2316 days, 14 hours, 35 minutes ago
View azzazzello's profile
azzazzello
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
I would be for addressing the way this works for several reasons. 

First, Thost could not fix it as client and server would not match as Tim did not have control over which version of the client the person used.  
Second, this problem disproportionately effects races like Evil empire due to low bay count while other races are not effected due to having many more bays.  I see nothing wrong with fighters being launched proportionate to number of bays.  If you want bays jammed I want to see some bays of Golems jam too
2316 days, 10 hours, 27 minutes ago
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ginkas
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
Argue that original Host works like this (even when nobody remembers that thing, never in hundred of turns) is pointless. My game has 30 players where the original one has only a set of 11 with one fixed slot for each race, so we (you) have changed basic rules wherever needed. Preserving original *** (put here the word you prefer) is not a real reason, only a excuse.

Let's talk about reality and playability. This game is about strategy, but more than that, is about resource planning and the time it involves to do it correctly. We find it funny because the right decisions produces a meaningful advance in your race situation. Only that makes you sense that worths the time you expended on it.

Now we (I) have a Super Star Cruiser with 80 figthers destroyed by a weak planet because none of his fighters were launched. As a result of this one Super Star Frigate gets then destroyed.

80 fighters... Eighty!! They are the result of 16 turns of fighter base production (16 turns, you know?). This turn (two of two) the second Super Star Cruiser launched his fighters one by one until the very end of battle. Luckily, only a really weak planet and no ships where in front.

Imagine this situation in a real demanding scenery. You entire game could get ruined without any reason. And months of planning ruined by *strange circumstances* only have one result to be expected, no more playing, never ever.

It is supposed to affect unequally, depending on your race, right? Do you need more reasons?

We are not talking about a medium ship you could lose, we are talking about the empire's true total weapon. SSD do its job at the beginning but isn't for the hard times, and Gorbie isn't practical for a everywhere use.
2315 days, 23 hours, 15 minutes ago
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edward jacobs
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply

As a fighter dependant race, I say add the extra "thousand" variables.

Just because the variables were hand written by tim isnt reason enough to not fix what appears to be a quite nasty (for some races) bug.

2315 days, 19 hours, 49 minutes ago
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ginkas
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
Third in a row... Super Star Cruiser not launching his fighters in a battle, luckily this time was a encounter with a LDSF...

Wait... I can remember their words... this is exactly how THOST does it... 

Well, I can repeat mine, THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE, so check your notes, algorithms or whatever you have.

Hundred of turns hosted or played + never heard of + no one remembers this situation out of Planets.nu + three in a row seeing this previously unseen behaviour...

Is that simple... 2 + 2 <> 5

I don't know the technical reason, but original host does not act like this one.
2305 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes ago
View johnqpublic's profile
johnqpublic
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
At the risk of making more work for Joshua (sorry!) this seems like an ideal candidate for a selectable host setting, set by the game creator when they set it up - either use the original Tim setting, or the large-pool-of-random-numbers fix.  Personally I'd rather not penalize small-armament ships more than large ones - the combat algorithm if truly random does that enough already.
2304 days, 17 hours, 38 minutes ago
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gudmo
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
I've seen something along these lines with the colonial Virgo as well, half-way through a battle the fighter launch frequency dramatically decreases. Happened in a recent game where I lost a fully stocked Virgo to an Automa and that had hardly any damage after the fight..

Fustrating but I guess the mechs on my virgo got drunk the night before and had a hangover, the fighter launch control had a malfunction or something..   
2287 days, 16 hours, 23 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: fighters not launching after first waveWrite Reply
I don't think there's any argument here: it's unfair.  Of course, it's unfair to all of us equally; any one of us could fall victim if we happen to be foolish enough to play races that use low bay-count carriers.  (Like me, for example.)

Here's the thing:  The thought of having these so-called random effects creates the illusion that it simulates reality.  Sometimes, Gun Crew #6 has accidentally been asphyxiated by faulty environmental controls and it's a while before anyone can get there to fire.  Some classes of ships are vulnerable to mechanical problems and will have trouble launching fighters.  And sometimes, an enemy fighter happens to perfectly strike a secondary exhaust vent, which then sets up a chain reaction that destroys the main reactor.

We all know that the SSD is useless as a carrier, as is any other ship with a mere three bays.  And we've all lost battles we ought to have won.  Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way... except that this is possibly predictable and therefore potentially repeatable and... wait for it... exploitable.  Exploits ought not to be allowed, period.

So... yeah.  Let's fix this a bit.  Are there any options?