Needed: Easy way to give away planets.

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2455 days, 7 hours, 25 minutes ago
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mule
Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
Yes, I know gpX was only a Phost thing, but it occurs to me that something like it could be very useful here at NU. In my very first game here there were so many drops that sometime after turn 50 or 60, my ally and I were the only players left. Now, we had certainly won but in order to get credit and/or to end the game we had to appeal to Josh to end the game manually or we had to waste I don't know how many turns just running around collecting planets. - That would be Very Boring!

Several of us have now started several private set up games where we have agreed on fixed length games. At the end of that time, we will be in the same situation as described about. ie:asking for a manual game close (and I still don't know if credit is given for a complete game) or just all of us walking away and leaving the game to do whatever such games do.

So, my idea is that if a player or group of players wanted to quit or end a game and we could give our planets away using a code that worked something like gpX and then the problem would be solved for any number of situations without having to ask for special help and work from the game host. Maybe even have a default condition where if a player stops entering turns for X number of turns, all his planets would go to gpZ (or something) that would make them unowned so the remaining players would not have to play janitor for quit players.

2455 days, 7 hours, 2 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
Any give planet friendly code added without qualifications will make the bird's super-spy mission much, much more powerful. Which might not be a bad thing, but it's something to consider.

Also I think that the impact on public games would be too dramatic. Imagine you as the empire rolling over some feds, but then all of a sudden they quit and give all their planets (and presumably bases) to the privateers. Your entire strategy must now change.

I am not as opposed to the "gpZ" suggestion, to make planets unowned (essentially a planetary kill race), but again this can be abused. If I'm attacking someone and they quit I shouldn't have to all of a sudden switch into a colonization mode because they have abandoned all their planets.

I'm not really against the idea, but such ramifications should be considered, and I'm against anything that gives droppers even MORE ability to screw over the remaining players. I think a "vote to end game and still receive points" addition would be a much better solution to the issue you present.
2455 days, 6 hours, 50 minutes ago
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mule
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
As you say, all ramifications should be considered.
Here's one we have right now.

I play a good part of a game and for whatever reason, a number of players drop. So I shift my forces half way across the galaxy to confront the remaining player(s.) THEN - some "jonnie-come-lately" joins as one of the dropped player and I (who have been playing all along) find myself totally out of position. My other option (next time) is to go on fighting "phantom players." If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't have to play at a host with other players.

There are a lot of "what - ifs" and we can't cover all of them. And that includes doing nothing different! So, maybe we add this as an option just in Private Set Ups? Then those that want it can have it and those that don't will not have to worry about it.
2455 days, 6 hours, 21 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
I guess I'm not understanding what would be different in that situation if the give planet code were in place. Would the droppers have given their planets to you? To your opponents? Would they have uncolonized them?

It seems like your issue is more with droppers (which is a common gripe here), or maybe with replacements? This just seems to me a very dangerous way of addressing the problem. It seems like it could have made your situation even worse. What if the replacement had decided to give all their planets to your enemies (and what if that enemy was the borg, you think you were out of position before)? What if the planets they turned over gave the other side enough to win?

In public games where the victory condition is planet count, it seems to throw things out of whack to me. What if a single player is dominating, getting near that 200 planet count for the win, holding off every one else on the map, despite their combined efforts to attack. So they decide they'll all just give their planets to one player of the "alliance" and have them win instead, just to spite the stronger player. Does that seem right?

For private games, of course it could (should?) be an option. The more options the better in that arena, so players can customize their games to their hearts' content. But then, I doubt you would see the same underlying issues (frequent dropping/replacements) in private games.
2455 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes ago
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mule
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
Like I said, what ifs can apply to no changes as well as changes. Right now, I could have my buddy join as dropped player and play to my advantage. So, what solution / protection do we have against that? I assume (and yes, I know assumptions can get you into trouble) that most players - given an option - would do the right thing.

Right now I made the suggestion and you have provided some good points to consider. So, I would be curious about other opinions. As it is, I will simply NOT play a "public" game given any another choice.
And even private set ups, although better if you can find enough dependable players, are not proof against player abuse or lack of interest.
2454 days, 9 hours, 20 minutes ago
View mycroft's profile
mycroft
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
I would have to concur with Beefer, it would add a lot more variability.

It would add the possibility for drop-joiners who are willing to give all ships to another player to give all planets also. In effect doubling the effective strength of a player as fast as he can get there to claim it. (If the planet code itself doesn't work instantaneously). 

However, one could add conditions to the Bird ability to change that code. For instance every single turn a portion of the ships crew is beamed to the planet to perform a military coup de ta by turning the civilian/native population against the owning player. In order to be more effective, there has to be a higher amount of Bird Special Forces planet-side. Which increases the chances of detecting them. In which all (or portion) of them are simply executed with a 5% reduction in colonist and native population which are also executed for being collaborators. However, with the higher amount of troops planet-side. The Bird player could then try to take over the planet. And make it take X turns to accomplish the military coup once activated (Depending on the number of troops planet-side). Each turn with a growing chance of detection. However, each turn more of the populations are subverted. So if the coup is detected a higher % of the population is killed off as collaborators and a % of happiness is lost for the shortsightedness of the current regime for not detecting it sooner. And once the Coup has rally'd the majority of the population then the Bird can activate the final stage with the FC change and attempt to conquer the planet at a 1:1 ratio killing all not subverted subjects (And 15:1 for Lizards and 10:1 for Fascists). With higher government (natives) levels showing less resistance and more surrender. While stupider governments (natives) are more blindly loyal and will fight to the death. The Happiness will be then dropped to 0. All Mines and Factories will lose 75% of their number. All Defense posts will be removed. Then control will be given to the Birds. (Perhaps 50% of all supplies/MC's will be destroyed or looted from the resulting civil war.)

(Campaign mode only obviously ;) )

However, otherwise this will be a major boon to us Bird players. Especially if I can simply capture your HW and other early SB's by simply changing the FC. The losses a Bird commander would face would be 0 compared to a devastating blow that would be very difficult, if at all possible, to recover from in the early (and maybe even mid game). I would also be able to ruin your position with only a mere Swift Heart Scout. Without needing (2-3 Deth Speculas) or (2 Resolutes) or (1 Dark Wing). 

2454 days, 9 hours, 7 minutes ago
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mule
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
I'm thinking Campaign Mode might be a special circumstance. I'm just guessing because I neither play it or am interested. But, perhaps some other solution to what I thought was a simple fix would be better.

Although dropped player slots was certainly not the only problem I was concerned about, it is still a real or potential problem. Especially if one assumes that there are players willing to use more than one identity or to have a "friend" do so. Maybe something as simple as not allowing new players to take over dropped games and reverting planets to unoccupied status would suffice.

As far as a method to end a game that is clearly over with having to depend on host intervention..???

2454 days, 3 hours, 52 minutes ago
View mycroft's profile
mycroft
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
I understand entirely what you are trying to accomplish, and I would be able to understand entirely why most of us would like it. If you have an ally who has a particular ship you would like a lot of. It is easy to legitimize giving up a key starbase inside of your economical strongpoints. Where you can continue to nurture the planet and get a whole lot of key ships that you would then hope your ally/friend/W.E to hand over the ships produced to be added to your fleets.

And the ability to simply hand the planet over rather than having to get a ton of Merlins or Super Freighters in one spot and deport or slowly trade civilians via ship trading to change the ownership of the planet. Which can take a long long time depending on how many civilians are present and what ships can be spared. Would certainly make this facet much easier to accomplish.

The ability to just "Hand Over" planets would be a great tool for diplomacy. For instance, I will leave you alone and fight someone else if you surrender Planet(s) XXX through XXX to me. I will trade you Planet(s) XXX-XXX for ship(s). Or even to make borders make more sense to trade Planet(s) for Planet(s). Or even a trade of Planet(s) for X amounts of resources. It enables multi-racial alliances to be stronger by having greater fleet integration. Rather than just a strike team inside of each others realm of influence. 

However, the key fact that must remain. To enact any ability or function to the game will open up possibilities for it to be used in less than desirable methods. And all of that has to be taken into account. As the positives are certainly there, so are the negatives.  
2453 days, 23 hours, 14 minutes ago
View centurionprime's profile
centurionprime
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
While the idea of giving a planet away has some interesting ramifications, I think a different solution to Mule's first issue is in order:

Why not an ingame voting system where any active player can vote to end the game with player X or Team Y as the victor? Or to avoid abuse of a voting system that defers a win to who you vote for, why not just a straight up vote to end the game where those who *most meet* the win conditions win the game?

This avoids endless turns of grabbing planets, of involving Joshua, and can still provide the bonuses normally associated with winning the game or making it until the end?
2453 days, 22 hours, 31 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
+1 to centurion!!!!!!!!!!!

With a victory vote system, if someone is in a losing position they can use their remaining clout to vote for whom they think should be the winner.  That way the underdogs can use their vote to reward the person whom they have observed playing with the most skill, or the most honorable game, or to thank a person for having helped along the way.

For this to really work, it's also important for the vote to be fully-automated and anonymous.

It is much easier and much less destructive to look for better ways to determine victory conditions before messing with the mechanics of the game.  As soon as you screw with game mechanics such as adding a give-planet friendly code, you risk opening a hornet's nest of possible tricks and exploits.  Plus there's a whole panorama of technical stuff to figure out: where it happens in the host order, on what conditions it succeeds and fails, what happens if there is an enemy there, what happens to the starbase and its orders and ... OMG like a hundred other things.

This game is confusing enough as it is.  There's a simple solution to the core problem here: offer another option for victory conditions that includes voting for a winner or winners.
2453 days, 21 hours, 54 minutes ago
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mule
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
I have played at sites with vote-to-end/vote-to-win and was less than thrilled.
The vote to end needed to be unanimous and there was always one holdout. But, in the scenario I described (with everyone but myself and my ally dropping) it would have worked to end the game without having to involve Joshua. So, for that part ... Yup.

For the vote to win - not so much.
Everything echoclustervet says is true. Unfortunately, as in my original suggestion, there are countless possibilities of abuse. I really don't want to play as if it is a popularity contest. Not because I can't be likeable - I just may never get the chance. And I wouldn't want that to determine outcome.

Post Script...
IF the game had a maximum turn count, I guess the remaining players could just keep turning in turns without any effort expended in them to finally get the game to end. Another reason for fixed turn games.

2453 days, 20 hours, 3 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
Mule: let me be specific about the voting idea in my mind.

On Nu, for most games, victory conditions are simple: number of planets, period.  So consider this: You're the Feds and you're ready for the game to be finished.  You hold 50 planets and you're not planning on expanding more.  The Robots and the Rebels are in an alliance and hold 180 planets between them.  If you think they deserve to win, you submit your vote for them, anonymously, and you can notify them that you've voted for them if you want or you can keep it a secret.  You can also retract your vote at any time if you change your mind and want the game to continue or if you no longer think they should win.  As soon as the Robots and Rebels get 20 more planets they get the 250 victory condition and they win because they hold 200 and you've voted them your 50.  After the game is over, everybody finds out who voted them to the win.

In other words, your standing in the game determines your weight in the vote, and no one ever has an obligation to vote for anybody.

There's honestly no possible way to abuse this system.  It's a good way to reward players who stay in the game because it gives them a raison d'être, and it's fair for all because every person's accomplishments grant that player the amount of clout they have earned.
2453 days, 19 hours, 44 minutes ago
View tom n's profile
tom n
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
Just my two cents.

   +1 to fixed turn games. Not only because some of these BIG games can take almost a year, for God's sake, but knowing the game ends at turn 60 (or 70, or whatever) adds a sense of urgency and strategy to those last several turns. If team A doesn't get the needed 250 planets by turn 60, then maybe reward is a bit less on the achievement scale. Too many games tend to drag on for weeks when the outcome has been decided a long time ago.
2453 days, 19 hours, 34 minutes ago
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mule
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
ECV, I am not totally against your idea. It DOES have merit. But, some will award their votes exactly as you suggest and others might sell or trade their vote. Or give it to their friends. Or let's say there are some drops and Player X suddenly shows up - takes over an abandoned race with a lot of planets, and decides Player Y should get his vote. Are we 100% sure this is on the up and up? Just as my original idea of using gpX was shown to be open to abuse, I'm afraid this one is too. The sad fact is that we must depend on the honor system as there is no assurance we know who is who...

tomn, Exactly as you say, fixed turn games AND I would add - no substitutes would make me dance in the street. Even people in prison get to know the length of their sentence and can handle the most harsh conditions if they can at least mark off the days. I would wager that if 2 otherwise identical games were made available  with just these two changes, one would fill immediately and the other would go begging for players.
2453 days, 18 hours, 12 minutes ago
View jobo's profile
jobo
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
I would never join a game with no substitutes (I'd much rather have someone take over than leave a blank spot from a player that dropped), but a fixed turn setup (combined with actual winning conditions for a faster win) would be interesting, as I have played a few games that went on forever in the usual stalemate with two big powers just sending ships at each other.
2453 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: Needed: Easy way to give away planets.Write Reply
I started writing a post to respond to this and then realized we are WAY off-topic, so I felt the responsible thing was to start a new thread so that Mule's conversation can continue parallel to the discussion of varying victory conditions including games that end at a predetermined turn number.

So please go to >> http://planets.nu/discussion/variety-in-starting-and-victory-conditions