New settings for limiting share intel and safe passage...

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639 days, 23 hours, 1 minutes ago
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big beefer
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New settings for limiting share intel and safe passage agreements.

As mentioned in the most recent championship game ( http://planets.nu/#/sector/233558/settings ) there are new settings that can be used to restrict the number of share intel and safe passage agreements that a player may make. Note that each level of agreement also counts towards the level(s) below it. That is, a share intel will also count as a safe passage, and an alliance will also count towards both the share intel and safe passage limits.

As an example, the Pisces War has settings
Max Allies: 0
Max Share Intel: 1
Max Safe Passage: 2

So each player can have 2 safe passages, or 1 safe passage and 1 share intel.

The standard settings for most new system-created games will be
Max Allies: 1
Max Share Intel: 2
Max Safe Passage: 3

These settings are also now available for custom games.
639 days, 22 hours, 44 minutes ago
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whisperer
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Nice :)

Thank you.
639 days, 22 hours, 41 minutes ago
View iso--t's profile
iso--t
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Very nice addon!
639 days, 22 hours, 22 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
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A great configuration option to experiment with. Thanks!

The described standard setting for system-created games is a change Commanders should be aware of.
If your ally is chosen and set you have just 1 more SP to give. This makes a late game gang-of-four more error-prone. I like that. In the past I sometimes was part of such big gangs to stop the leading alliance but I often was hunted by a big alliances, too. If you are aware what is posssible and what not you can adjust. I think it's more important now to closely observe the global situation and react faster. I hope this leads - in average - to more intense and slightly shorter games.
639 days, 21 hours, 36 minutes ago
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rudel
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So this basically makes it really tough for the 4 minor players to ally against the one runaway to prevent him from winning. Strange change.
639 days, 21 hours, 16 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
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@Rudel, if someone has worked himself into a position that needs 3+ players to stop him why shouldn't he be the deserved winner?
Furthermore this change doesn't mean that one player can't be attacked by 3+ players anyway. It's just a little! bit more difficult to organize unsurmountable ability stacks on every frontline.
639 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes ago
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emork the lizard king
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Btw, BB, I guess this announcement will quickly get buried in the feed and we'll see complaints in some months when Commanders who did not read this thread get aware of the new restrictions in their game.
Reviving the change log
http://play.planets.nu/#/howtoplay/changelog
and giving it a more prominent position (e.g. bottom line next to feedback) would be be helpful.
Doc team does a great job to link the announcements
http://play.planets.nu/#/howtoplay/Announcements
to the change log but it can be a lot of work to find out a specific thing in separated posts which contain not only change descriptions but also much storyline.
639 days, 19 hours, 50 minutes ago
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warhound
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I would vote that changes of this nature should make the breaking news feed. Take a bow and a little row space BB :)
639 days, 19 hours, 40 minutes ago
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cinnamon
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Thanks for the clarification @Big+Beefer .

I second that it should be added to the news feed. I have a question about the news feed actually, how do i see the older news? Once it falls off the breaking news, i can't seem to find how to get the item anymore.
639 days, 18 hours, 19 minutes ago
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whisperer
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@Cinnamon,

> how do i see the older news?

http://planets.nu/#/activity/news
639 days, 17 hours, 14 minutes ago
View iso--t's profile
iso--t
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I do not find this setting when creating a custom game. Where is it?
639 days, 17 hours, 8 minutes ago
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whisperer
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> I do not find this setting when creating a custom game. Where is it?

It's on the Players tab:

Number of Players
Max Allies
Max Share Intel
Max Safe Passage
Teams
Max Players Per Race
639 days, 17 hours, 4 minutes ago
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iso--t
RE: New settings for limiting share intel and safe passage...Write Reply
Thanks. It was that refresh thing
639 days, 15 hours, 33 minutes ago
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whisperer
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Iso--t,

Glad to help.
639 days, 15 hours, 3 minutes ago
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whisperer
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Some additional information.

If Limited Diplomacy is enabled for a game, the Settings screen will show something like this:

•maxallies: 1
•maxshareintel: 2
•maxsafepassage: 3

Also, if you go to set the diplomacy level for a player, at the bottom of the screen there will be a line like this:

You can have a maximum of 1 allies, 2 share intel agreements, and 3 safe passage treaties.
639 days, 14 hours, 33 minutes ago
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rudel
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Emork, I don't care that much about this change. I guess it's an important issue for i.e. championship matches where you fight stubborn for years to get a winner. In standard games, I usually have more than 2 safe passages even if I'm in the lead. Usually to keep weaker/newer players out of any unwanted fights and because I usually do not go after new players (unless necessary).
639 days, 14 hours, 18 minutes ago
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vantucci
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>>The standard settings for most new system-created games will be
>>Max Allies: 1
>>Max Share Intel: 2
>>Max Safe Passage: 3

Which are included in this "most"? Classic games? While I understand this has nothing to do with classic setup, I'm curious since I play Classic mostly.
639 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes ago
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glyn
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This is basically more or less completed what Lone Wolf players wanted, the ability to disable Safe Passage and Share Intel (https://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/13223589-lone-wolf-format)
639 days, 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
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glyn
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@Vantucci: In case he doesn't directly answer your question, a newly created Classic Sector (today) has maxshareintel: 35 and maxsafepassage: 35 . But maybe it just missed the change and the next one will differ.
639 days, 14 hours, 4 minutes ago
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cinnamon
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@
639 days, 14 hours, 4 minutes ago
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cinnamon
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@Big+Beefer I now cannot set any safe passage agreements in Pisces. As soon as i click to set it says i can have a maximum of 2 safe passage or 1 safe passage and 1 intel agreement.

I, of course, presently have none.
639 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
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Thanks @Cinnamon, should be fixed now. A full refresh (Ctrl-F5) should pick up the change.

Also, the system-generated classic games do not currently have restrictions on share intel and safe passage, but of course you can always create a custom game with classic settings and add the restrictions if you want.
639 days, 9 hours, 0 minutes ago
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cinnamon
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Thanks @Big+Beefer

All checked out, looks like its working now. Now for the real diplomacy. I checked 3 times to make sure i didn't accidentally leave someone on share intel :P
639 days, 2 hours, 31 minutes ago
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gnerphk
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I feel I ought to either:
- Apologize for helping make this happen on behalf of the entire Capricorn War, or
- Feel obscure resentment for what seems to me to be a condemnation of successful diplomacy and vassalization.

I'm going to choose the second option, but I'll keep it to myself and bottle it up along with everything else until one day I explode, doubtless taking out several nearby star systems in my incandescent fury.
639 days, 2 hours, 29 minutes ago
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glyn
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@Gnerphk: People wanted Lone Wolf Sector settings, so it was inevitable anyhow.
639 days, 2 hours, 28 minutes ago
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gnerphk
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Rage, rage against the dying of the light!
638 days, 23 hours, 15 minutes ago
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kelmain
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This is very different than lone wolf games. Those games limit the number of cooperating players. This merely limits how they can cooperate. For example, 5 players can still team up and cycle through shared intel every fourth turn in a 1 SI game, an approach that would be impermissible in a lone wolf set up.
638 days, 22 hours, 55 minutes ago
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rudel
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@Gnerphk I'm with you here and I still feel a little reluctant towards this change. Why punish successful diplomacy? In my last game, I had 3 safe passages without any of the players knowing that I have a SP with someone else and that worked out pretty well.

I get it that Lone Wolfish rules is a thing for some players, but others love this game because of the freedom of diplomacy it gives.
638 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes ago
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iso--t
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Lone wolf games are totally different games. Games without diplomacy. Nothing to do with this. This new option has nothing against diplomacy. I think this is a good option for some games. Actually I think If setting is something like max 3 or 4, there is no big difference to old system.
638 days, 22 hours, 25 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
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@Gnerphk: Don't take it so serious. You still can have unlimited trades and treaties with other players and those treaties still have an unlimited design space. IMO diplomacy is not significantly affected by this change, only the tactical level is and only when the gang is big.
It's more difficult to organize that the Pirate MBR tows the Rebel Rush through Crystal and Robotic minefields while the sweeping Virgo sits in the middle and all are friends and nobody gets harmend or drained and no friendly mines are swept. But it's as easy as before to have peace, trade, reliable borders and many joint operations between all these races.
638 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes ago
View ted's profile
ted
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@Rudel: >@Gnerphk I'm with you here and I still feel a little reluctant towards this change. Why punish successful diplomacy?

Because it is no diplomacy to give the own race for free away.
638 days, 15 hours, 22 minutes ago
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gnerphk
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Well... I'll just think of it as a recruiting tool for Classic, is what I'll do. How's that?

@Ted - Just because it's intangible doesn't mean it's free.

I'd thought it was D. D. Harriman that said this, but it turns out it was Montgomery to George Strong. Old Delos was there, though, and cackling.

"Intangibles are the most honest merchandise anyone can sell. They are always worth whatever you're willing to pay for them and they never wear out. You can take them to your grave untarnished."

Most often, I like to sell the right of revenge, but sometimes it's just helping a friend.
638 days, 14 hours, 19 minutes ago
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ted
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@Gnerphk
>Most often, I like to sell the right of revenge, but sometimes it's just helping a friend.

Well, any form of aid is from sociological view mainly a two-way relation, because if you give assistance, then you await also the same. If there is no balance (to give/receive) in this, then it is formaly no help.

Limited relation trys on my view to catch this what you explained, it "limit" slightly your personal friend relation what first look strange for you, but let me say that this ... protect you and other only! :)
638 days, 14 hours, 6 minutes ago
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gnerphk
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I just don't see it. It's a restriction on my behavior, and I always find it hard to see how that benefits or protects me.

But... Classic. Always, Classic is available.
638 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes ago
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vantucci
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Agreed @Gnerphk.
638 days, 13 hours, 40 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
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@Gnerphk, maybe Goethe's words are a small comfort for you:
"In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister"
638 days, 11 hours, 59 minutes ago
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gnerphk
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A point, that.

Ya know what? When I set up the Ashes of the Empire game (looking like later this month), I'll give the new settings a fair try.
638 days, 5 hours, 25 minutes ago
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glyn
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@Kelmain: "This is very different than lone wolf games."

Well yeah, it isn't a Lone Wolf Sector... its also very different from a Melee and MvsM, and rugby and chess.

:P
___

@Rudel: "I had 3 safe passages without any of the players knowing that"

Anyone can figure that out though by laying mines in other Races name overlapping each other and seeing what happens... although one-way Safe Passage is not detectable this way. Hint hint.
___

@Gnerphk: "It's a restriction on my behavior, and I always find it hard to see how that benefits or protects me."

-stab stab stab- Oh I'm sorry, were you using those lungs? ...my bad.

But yeah, I wouldn't be using the ability to limit Safe-Passage/Share-Intel anytime soon, I already kinda felt Full Alliance should be unlimited for the most Sectors to defacto create a way to vote to end the game.
638 days, 4 hours, 19 minutes ago
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gnerphk
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@Glyn - I'm often glad to restrict someone else's behavior, but never my own. No stabbing the Gnerphk.
638 days, 3 hours, 48 minutes ago
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glyn
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https://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgrylaxe521qa9jeq.jpg
638 days, 3 hours, 37 minutes ago
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gnerphk
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http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html

A secret: This is actually kinda how I've been picturing you for a while, @Glyn. In my mind, you're Belkar the evil halfling.

(I know. It's not remotely accurate. But still---)
637 days, 16 hours, 34 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
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@Gnerphk,

> It's not remotely accurate

Agreed. I think this is MUCH more accurate:
http://planets.nu/_library/2017/10/glyn.jpg
637 days, 15 hours, 59 minutes ago
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glyn
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@Whisperer: Thank you for not resorting to homophobic insults.
637 days, 15 hours, 52 minutes ago
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whisperer
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637 days, 15 hours, 25 minutes ago
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glyn
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@Whisperer: Well I do destroy you over and over so I can see why you are threatened by me.
637 days, 15 hours, 17 minutes ago
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whisperer
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ROFLMAO!!!
637 days, 15 hours, 4 minutes ago
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glyn
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Looks like I touched a nerve, he's so butthurt.
637 days, 14 hours, 38 minutes ago
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admiral rex star
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LOL would you two stop it already. This is so high school. Take your super nova'd Ego's to private messages and degrade each other like children there.

I say this with love.
637 days, 14 hours, 35 minutes ago
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whisperer
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@Glyn,

> butthurt

http://metatalk.metafilter.com/22473/Please-reconsider-the-use-of-the-term-butthurt
http://persephonemagazine.com/2013/01/can-we-please-stop-using-the-term-butthurt/
637 days, 13 hours, 35 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
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Flowers!

(just to beautify the left side of the screen)
637 days, 13 hours, 22 minutes ago
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frostriese
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What about trees for the right side ^^
637 days, 13 hours, 19 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
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The Game Setup Customization page has been updated with this information.

http://planets.nu/#/howtoplay/customization

> Flowers!
> trees

Flowers on one side and trees on the other. Let them frame the beauty of the game :)
637 days, 7 hours, 38 minutes ago
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glyn
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@Admiral+Rex+Star: For me it is a bit like using a laser pointer to cause a kitten to charge into a wall, quite amusing, but definitely animal cruelty... it is a battle between getting bored of him making the same mistake over and over, and curiosity if he will learn to stop hurting himself.
439 days, 15 hours, 26 minutes ago
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the pale destroyer
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Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present the mighty prophet @Emork+The+Lizard+King :
"Btw, BB, I guess this announcement will quickly get buried in the feed and we'll see complaints in some months when Commanders who did not read this thread get aware of the new restrictions in their game."

@Big+Beefer please can you commit to making rule changes in the announcements!?
The feed often [restraint mode activated] devolves and it's really easy to miss things when terrestrial matters summon people to their respective soapboxes.

(or did I miss an actual announcement and now need to walk away shamefaced?)

Pale
439 days, 14 hours, 21 minutes ago
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qinic
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There have not been any changes, changelog says so :)
439 days, 14 hours, 4 minutes ago
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whisperer
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@The+Pale+Destroyer,

I'd like to introduce you to the Announcements document:
http://planets.nu/#/howtoplay/announcements

While this is no substitute for placing announcements into the News, we do our best to make sure that announcements effecting how the game works are recorded so that they can be found later.

I hope this helps.
439 days, 13 hours, 59 minutes ago
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qinic
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Where can that link be found? And could you also add that to the left hand Nav in the How To Play section or at least the index?
439 days, 13 hours, 40 minutes ago
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whisperer
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@Qinic,

That page was originally created to help the Editors find the relevant announcements by the Admins, so that the documentation could be updated and verified. At that time, a link was placed at the bottom of the Documentation Details page (http://planets.nu/#/howtoplay/AdminInterface).

It's in the Index, as "•Planets.nu Announcement History". Perhaps we should rename it to be easier to find.

I'll ask Gnerphk about adding it to the Table of Contents (left-hand nav bar).
439 days, 13 hours, 36 minutes ago
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the pale destroyer
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Thanks @Whisperer I do appreciate the work you and the team do on documentation.
However, I feel that significant events like rule changes need front and centre visibility.
439 days, 13 hours, 36 minutes ago
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chanain
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Since the thread's resurrected anyways, this might be as good a time as any to make a couple comments on the implementation of the change:

(1) System-generated zero-ally games still have effectively unlimited safe passage and share intel settings. Given the tendency of these games to be higher level and more competitive, I find this strange - I can share intel with as many people as I'd like in my Standard Commodore+ zero-ally sector with a DM of 1.93, but I'm under strict diplomatic constraints in my Standard Commander+ sector? While I'm not entirely sold on the diplomatic limitations in general, I would think that for the sake of consistency (if nothing else) a zero-ally sector should have safe passage/share intel settings at least as restrictive as other sectors.

(2) The limitations on safe passage are particularly hand-tying in sphere sectors. When you start with 4-5 reasonably close neighbours, not including anyone else you may meet in the centre, a cap of 3 diplomatic agreements has a much greater impact than in other sectors. I would probably argue for a +1 to all categories, and/or a +2 to safe passages, for spheres.

(3) Horwasp sectors. Even those who advocate for Horwasp on the feed interpret their role as something of a 'bogeyman' race - something against which other races are *supposed* to have to band together. Diplomacy limitations on the other races are likely to be a substantial advantage to the Horwasp - especially share intel, which is extremely valuable for cooperative screens. IMHO, diplomacy limitations should not apply to Horwasp sectors.
439 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes ago
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whisperer
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@The+Pale+Destroyer,

> I feel that significant events like rule changes need front and centre visibility.

I agree, but only the Admins can do that.