Paper, Rock, Scissor Race Guide

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2405 days, 9 hours, 34 minutes ago
View spacesquad's profile
spacesquad
Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Guys i need your help, i would like to create a graphical Raceguide where you can see on one picture which race is suitable to kill which race. So my question is: For your race, what would be your nightmare enemy, who is your nemesis. And who you can kill with your little finger.

This is just for theory, every race can be killed be all others depending on player skills or diplomacy, but some races are perfectly equipped to fight a specific race. No Propaganda please, everyone has a nemesis race.

To Start with my Crystallines, i would say Privateer is the natural born victim due to the fact that they have few beams on their ships to sweep. Borg is the worst enemy as due to their Warp Tunnel they are hard to trap in webs.

So the picture would be:  Crystallines dominate Privateers dominate Borg dominate Crystalline

2405 days, 2 hours, 29 minutes ago
View seveiht's profile
seveiht
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Rebels:
Worst enemy: Crystals, privateers  (Lack of beams for sweeping and no anti cloaking technology makes them susceptible to being tow captured)
Victims: Its not really a victim, but I like fighting the borg. I think this comes from early competition with dungeon master when we were running our own server.  Falcons are very good at stunting borg expansion, something other races can't really do, but you have to be careful not to give one to the borg.  Rushes cost less than cubes and although its difficult to move them, you can build and arm more of them for much much cheaper.
2405 days, 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
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I think that Privateers have absolutely the most pronounced natural nemeses!

Privateers' most feared enemies: Fed, Lizard, Fascist, Crystal, Robot

Privateers' best people to pick a fight with: Cyborg, Rebel, Empire, Colony

Neutral (but often a decent victim): Bird
2405 days, 1 hours, 46 minutes ago
View bacchus's profile
bacchus
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I don't think that the Privs can make the Birds into a victim. Birds just need to kill the Priv starbases and there isn't really much the Privs can do to stop them. Can't rob something if you can't see it :>
2405 days, 1 hours, 41 minutes ago
View bacchus's profile
bacchus
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Speaking as a Fed player, I love fighting the Privs because with the Loki there isn't much they can do to my planets and with the amount of cash I generate I can mine the hell out of anywhere I choose. Crystals aren't as bad to fight because I can refit H. Phasers onto some big beamed ships and my ships beat them on a 1-on-1 basis.

I'm not really sure of a race that I hate to fight as the Feds, Borg probably. The Annies are a bitch to kill and keeping up with their ability to move their fleets is tough. Factor in that when you do take planets from them they are nearly useless to you because the natives are all gone, they are just a big pain.



2405 days, 0 hours, 53 minutes ago
View iso--t's profile
iso--t
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Fascists:

Fascist are very strong against privateers. Vickie + Glory device + Pillage planet + Cloakers that can not be robbed. If played well, very difficult situation for privs

Fascist are toasted when attacked by Robots. Even cheap instru kills Vickie easily, Golem kills 2-3, and they can mine shit out of Fascist cloakers.

2405 days, 0 hours, 26 minutes ago
View elgeologo's profile
elgeologo
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Lizards:

The Cyborg is a Pain for the Lizard (makes the ground attack ratio nearly useless) and with his economy, he can minefield the border to prevent lizard cruiser scout.

The Privateers are a sunny walk in the beach for a Lizard, with the ground attack and gthe Loki he can't do much...

2404 days, 23 hours, 50 minutes ago
View mycroft's profile
mycroft
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Actually as a Bird hitting the privateers isn't as easy or as hard as you think. You have to make sure a planet has no ships overhead before you attack. Since Rob happens first, you will uncloak get robbed, then your ship(s) will surrender to the starbase.

So you have to secure your ground first then start beating things. But, the Privateers cannot win ship to ship. So you have to force fights, kill by setting PE then floating overhead. And laying minefields in their space.

To the topic

As a bird,

I feel most comfortable against the EE. Early on in the game the Crystals are the only person that can slow the early game decapitation strike if the player is really out to start off running. A pair of resolutes will really destroy anything you ever hoped to do with your life if they can get to the homeworld quickly.

Feds are not as fun to fight. Due to their bonuses, a lot of their ships are par or better than Romulan ships. Making the kill recloak factor of less benefit. However, the Feds probably suffer for fuel more.

Fascist's are fun to fight. Their only real advantage is the GD's. And if you use lots of scouts you can negate them for no real waste. Any Dark Wing with MK 7's can handle any Vickky any day 1-1.

Carrier races are both ways. Romulans can't always stop a carrier fleet unless they specifically prepared to fight one. But oft times, players who do play carrier races get nervous when a true Bird fleet is approaching. As I personally WILL hunt all your minelayers and ships your using to tow carriers. If you are one not to put transwarps on your carriers I will immobilize your fleet. However, if your carriers have the engines the only other option I really could do is to hide all the fuel from your carriers and try to suck up theirs as well. If fuel can't get to the carriers they are again immobilized. Dark wings with 1-2 Beams and MK 4's are a great tool for handling carriers. Only 2 Dark Wings are needed like this to handle a Virgo or Rush with the other remaining intact. Even a full beamed Dark Wing can usually bring a Virgo down to 20-40% hull. A Dark Wing can handle an Instrumentality but it hurts.

Really to be honest the only person I would really prefer not to fight on a endgame scale is the Federation. It's one of those fights that I know I could win by probably won't in the long run. I personally feel better to be instantly annihilated then to be picked apart limb from limb. 
2404 days, 19 hours, 25 minutes ago
View n@ndus's profile
n@ndus
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@spacesquad: I really like your idea, to establish a quick, handsome overview using this projection. I could even imagine to build up some kind of "strategic mindmap", enabling easy information picking by linked objects...but thats going too far for now :-)

But actually I wanted to say, that I already thought about this earlier and my conclusion is, that there is no 1:1:1 - matching for every race. In case of borg-cry-liz its more or less correct the way you mentioned, but there are some more shapes of gray (but less than 50 :-)) when reviewing / comparing all races: e.g.  there is a second nemesis for borg after the privi, the fascists. The privi is a 1st-class-threat for empire + borg but only a 2nd-class-threat for robot, rebel and colonial. Vice versa you have basically all other races to be a major threat for the privi (webs, lokis, poppers...). So I fear you will need a more sophisticated approach to paint a valid picture.

Regards,
n@ndus
 
2404 days, 19 hours, 5 minutes ago
View bondservant's profile
bondservant
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With Spacesquad and the Nu braintrust of players, I have a good feeling about this project....
2404 days, 18 hours, 25 minutes ago
View chas's profile
chas
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Really good idea.  And I learned a lot about the Birds from what mycroft wrote, never having played them.

Not sure it's appropriate, or maybe too complex, but we usually play with an ally.  And just a little cooperation (like say a Fed/Liz giving Lokis) can make a huge difference.  If that can be included in a simple way, it might help.
2404 days, 17 hours, 8 minutes ago
View coldblooded's profile
coldblooded
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In my experience as the Fascist, worst enemy is the Federation, The Loki shuts down cloakers, which partially shuts down the Glory Device, and the federation have 4 good fightings ships compared to the Fascist single Victorious for the most part.

A natural enemy is hard to say, but overall I'd say Privateers. Late game anyone can take on the fascist and early game many enemies can be taken down (I've shut down Borg, Robots, Empire and Rebels loooong before any of them can get their ball rolling). Pirates who haven't stolen many good warships from another race will have a hard time against a Klingon who's got plenty of Illwinds and Vickies towing GDs.
2404 days, 5 hours, 10 minutes ago
View fruchtquake's profile
fruchtquake
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i think you are planning to make this race guide for people who are (absolutely and relativley) new to the game and people who are beginning to join their first real games (not the giant melee mess :D )
so factors like skill, ship trades etc. do not matter. neither does the state (number of turns / ship limit ) of the game matter because we all know that there are races that perform best in early or end game stages. assuming we are looking at the overall performance i would see the races as follow :

feds
easy picks : privateers, klingons, romulans, crystals and E-Empire
hard to kill : robots, borg, lizards

lizards
easy picks : feds, romulans, privateers, E-Empire
hard : borg, crystals

romulans
easy picks: privateers, klingons, E-Empire
hard to kill : feds, lizards, borg

klingons:
easy picks : privateers, borg, E-Empire, rebels
hard to kill : robots

privateers:
easy picks : E-Empire, Rebels
hard to kill: feds, romulans, klingons, robots

Borg
easy picks : crystals and "none or everyone" (it all depends on your own skills, ships and mapcontrol)
hard to kill : Robots, E-Empire(? <- because of Super Star Destroyers), Klingons and rebels

Crystals
easy picks : privateer, rebels
hard to kill : feds, borg

E-Empire
easy picks : borg?
hard to kill : privateers, Robots

Robots
easy picks : romulans, privateers, E-Empire
hard to kill : crystals

Rebels
easy : borg, E-Empire
hard : privateers

Colonies
easy : klingons, romulans, E-Empire
hard : -

feel free to add/comment


2404 days, 4 hours, 52 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
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privateers:
easy picks : E-Empire, Rebels, Robots
hard to kill: feds, romulans, klingons


No, Robots are a horrible enemy for Privateers – every bit as bad as Crystals.  Why?  (1) Huge minefields (2) Ships with huge fuel tanks.
2404 days, 3 hours, 34 minutes ago
View fruchtquake's profile
fruchtquake
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lol yeah, my mistake, very hard for privateers :)
2403 days, 21 hours, 34 minutes ago
View n@ndus's profile
n@ndus
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@frucht: I'm not sure, if I would consider the birds to be an easy target for a fed. He will win on the long run, but not as easy as lets say a privi.

Concerning the overall thoughts of this project: I tend to say, that most keyfactors are "soft" or "non-influenceable", so, the more simple your design is, the more imprecise it will be due to the loss of information.

So, even if the triangle concept is proven, short and simple, we have to think about its value in this case. Best example is fruchtquakes list: try to make a decision which friend or foe you choose to be THE one. This will start a neverending discussion, I promise :-)

BUT, the idea as such is still very valuable, maybe we should choos another approach.

My suggestion would be a kind of SWOT-analysis for every race, so you can pick every single swot and compare it with another race. Your thoughts?

2403 days, 21 hours, 11 minutes ago
View coldblooded's profile
coldblooded
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I love how you stuck the Empire pretty much over everyone's easy picks lol... I'm trying to think of a dispute for some of them, give me a while....
2403 days, 19 hours, 50 minutes ago
View mycroft's profile
mycroft
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The EE is easy and hard for the Birds. Easy due to their lack of heavy minelaying but hard also because of the same. You dot just wear down the Emperial economy. Especially in the end game. They don't have to pay as much for their fighters over time. The SSD is able to handle resolutes. And I do not want to fight Gorbies. I mean seriously do not want to fight them. So if the player is smart enough not to play a blitz and advance with a flow. The EE are more dangerous then we give credit. It is their lack of fast offense and fast defense that makes them appear weak. The Empire is best played using Defense en depth strategies.
2403 days, 18 hours, 10 minutes ago
View fruchtquake's profile
fruchtquake
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hehe. as i said earlier, i was thinking about the same skill lvl for all players, looking over early, mid and end game. so @ nandus, the feds will surely be stronger than the birds because their ships are hard to counter for the birds. missouris for example are way to cheap to be countered by the neccisssary amount of darkwings in early and mid-game. you may still have another opinion ( i know what game your are refering to ) but i still beliebe that under the given circumstances feds own romulans pretty hard.

same with mycroft. mycroft, you know more about romulans than i do but from my experience i have to say that EE should be a fairly easy target in early and mid-game. depending on how every one is progressing to the end game, the E-Empire can easily be a pain for the romulans or vice versa.
2403 days, 15 hours, 11 minutes ago
View cadmus's profile
cadmus
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I play the Robots mainly, here is how I classify my opponent races:

Hard - Crystals, Robot ships don't have a lot of beams and need a lot of fuel, so some web mines can really hinder. Robots can't countermine webmines either.

Kind of hard - Privateers, Bird Men, Minefields are a good counter but a skillful player can still slip some ships through. The large ships in the Robot fleet make them susceptible to being Robbed.

Easy - Feds, Fascists - They have nothing in their fleet that can match the cost/effectiveness of the Instrumentality, and they don't have enough bonuses elsewhere to compensate, like the Lizards.

The rest I find to be in the middle.

2403 days, 12 hours, 41 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
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Well, spacequad nailed the most important golden triangle Borg > Crystal > Pirate > Borg. Everything else is irrelevant. ;)
I thought thin lizzy already made a matrix of sorts in a previous thread? Maybe I can dig it up.

Interesting the picks here, not what I would necessarily pick!
I would say that our pool of top players and top posters will colour this matrix in a particular Nu fashion.  Likewise the fact that few games beyond the championship games actually progress to a high level end-game where the map is littered with bases and minefields.

For the battleship races, I am not confident many of you have faced a really good rebel player like say Seveiht. The rebels are really much tougher than our leaderboard would otherwise indicate. Unlike the other carrier races the rush simply cannot be broken on a starbase because they are immune to NUK and have a base crushing mission. The rush's cargo hold is staggering and can be re-supplied by falcon. The rebel just sets RGA and no PE and sails right in with a ship labelled "take us to your leaders". They can force really ugly trades.

Likewise klingons can wreck races that rely on ship light-to-medium ship combinations like the fed. A hard race to play skillfully with no natural enemies, they really have no direct counter, as designed. Their worst matchup is the above rebel.  

Robots are also over emphasized on Nu. The robot has a critical Achilles heel against all races, they really are very terrible at taking starbases. If you want to see this in action, watch Skiv's fleet dwindle to space dust in the latter parts of Taurus, he might as well have had battleships. 
2403 days, 7 hours, 32 minutes ago
View johnqpublic's profile
johnqpublic
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Colonies:

Primarily, the Colonies' main advantage is that their fighter pilots are smarter and better-looking.

Other than that, you are less a "carrier race" than you are the "minesweeping and free fuel" race.  Virgos lose to Rushes, Gorbies, and Biocides, and Golems, and sometimes to Automata.

Easy - Empire, Robots, Feds
Hard - Rebels

Empire will be behind you economically until very late game; they cannot afford fighters like you can, resources (fuel vs minerals) are an issue, and their logistics are a burden.  Get the Virgos rolling and watch their SSC/D/CVs explode.  If they go for Gorbies, mudslide around them to hit planets, because they drink fuel like a bon vivant does Margaux, until you can trade down in a way that leaves you with more BP afterwards.

Robots - there's a limit to how many mines can be in a single field, but not to how many you can sweep in one turn.  There's more nuance than just that, but the basic fact unavoidably tilts the playing field in your favour.

Feds conflicts tend to end with a Colonial admiral saying that the enemy fought splendidly, but were quite outmatched.  Neither of you can be too sneaky, and your battlestars and mine supremacy tilt the balance.

Rebels attack your sprawling (because you don't worry about fuel) economy with HYPRGA Falcons, and Rushes get the LHS again with RGA, and beat Virgos without the BP edge you get over Gorbies and Biocides (which also beat Virgos but cost more).
2402 days, 16 hours, 59 minutes ago
View chas's profile
chas
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"golden triangle Borg > Crystal > Pirate > Borg"

Maybe that would make an interesting melee game.  Only those three races.  But somehow I wouldn't expect many Crystals.
2401 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes ago
View darth balls's profile
darth balls
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Borg:

When I start a new game I'm pretty happy to start near any cloaking race except the Privateers.  They mostly lack the quick-strike power needed to knock out a Borg home cluster the way a large carrier race can.

The Lizards make a fine ally for Borg because of their combined economic bonuses.  Once all of your Borg nodes are connected via firecloud network, those 30 or 40 otherwise useless probes make excellent hissssers.  When set above some of those planets of yours with 8 or 9 million assimilated natives, you can find yourself making 3,000 or 4,000 credits on each of these planets per turn for the remainder of the game.  Add to the mix Loki anti-cloaking technologies, and I believe there are few alliances/coalitions these two cannot hold their own against.
2401 days, 9 hours, 45 minutes ago
View spacesquad's profile
spacesquad
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Thanks all for your feedback so far, i will create a draft as soon as i have some time so you can get an idea how i want it to look. The content is still under discussion of course. I am looking forward to get more of your input.

@Darth Balls,
I guess you are the only Borg that is happy with a cloaking neighbor. All cloakers can kick you out quickly. Lizard can get out a T-Rex before you even open your first tunnel, a Bird Resolute can capture all your planets and can be build at turn 1! And worst of all, the Klingon will milk you like a fat cow before he gets bored and kills you at the end. It all depends on the players, but it´s a fact that the cloaking races are best equipped for an early kill.
2401 days, 5 hours, 34 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
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Here's thin lizzy's matrix from a year ago: http://planets.nu/discussion/faction-rating
At the time I wasn't Emperor and so people thought I was boasting. If you're trying to kill the borg early, you want to have a special ability like rob, pillage or RGA.
Your worst enemies are pirate, klingon, rebel. The empire can be an early game threat if played well though this is rare. If you're healthy and late in the game the only threat is pirate.
Yes the T-Rex can theoretically pop out at turn 6 or low tech ones even earlier, but it has to actually move to your location to be significant. At which point when it arrives there's invariably a cube to deal with it, and you need in fact 3 of them, minimum. If your timing push is even slightly off the numbers grow to be unreasonable, at turn 20 you're looking at ~3 cubes and so your attack needs to land with 9+ rex deployed and fighting in the borg territory. 
The klingon can wage very successful guerrilla and attrition warfare even turning your own probes into a long-distance hazard, the rebel rush is the only ship due to it's dirt cheap cost and immunity to NUK which poses a real timing push threat. 
2401 days, 4 hours, 18 minutes ago
View spacesquad's profile
spacesquad
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Your majesty, with all respect.
If you can get a ship out that can kill a firecloud, you can prevent the Borg from building a cube fast.
No need to kill him in a turn, it´s enough if you slow him down until the shiplimit has been hit. Borg Eco relies on native planets, if you kill them after the assimilation the planet is useless.
2401 days, 4 hours, 2 minutes ago
View tom graves's profile
tom graves
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>>Yes the T-Rex can theoretically pop out at turn 6 or low tech ones even earlier, but it has to actually move to your location to be significant. At which point when it arrives there's invariably a cube to deal with it, and you need in fact 3 of them, minimum. If your timing push is even slightly off the numbers grow to be unreasonable, at turn 20 you're looking at ~3 cubes and so your attack needs to land with 9+ rex deployed and fighting in the borg territory. <<

Why would the lizard fight the cube? Tow it with a reptile or LCC and use the T-Rex to kill the SB. At turn 20 you'll need three LCC or Reptiles. Fighting is never required for a cloaker. If the cube is sitting there with type 1 engines and one fuel... well It's a long trip back to what is now a lizard planet. 

The Borg are tough, but just because they are emperors of the Nuniverse doesn't make them unbeatable. Far from it.
2401 days, 3 hours, 44 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
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I wonder if the new cheaper Pawn B (campaign ship with 100% bioscan) will give the Robots an edge over the Borg?
2401 days, 3 hours, 20 minutes ago
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star72066
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Well said Tom !  And losing your H.W. Pre-20, even for the Borg, is a game wrecker, and if anyone can do it, it's the Lizards. Although with an Emperor Golden Tongue Borg, you want to follow that up with complete elimination, lest he come back in force with ships from every race. ;pp (Some kind of whole sale - Join me in killing the Lizard- Firecloud sale - combined with that Siren like DM charm.) Har!

2401 days, 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
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Hah! Well, it's all good in theory and all bad in practice. First you have to find them, then you have to discern what's relevant and what's not, then you have to mobilize your fleet and arm it, and all of it takes precious precious time. To listen to you guys if you replace borg by any other race that builds large ships we should have the cloaking races completely dominating the leaderboard. They should be carving out huge chunks of territory early as the large ship races fall early like leaves and capitalize on that territory towards easy victory. The contrary is actually true, we have a borg emperor, the campaign games are specifically tailored to increase the effectiveness of the cloaker races, and both championship matches have been won via alliance between golden races.
So I'll stick to my guns, it's not as easy as you are proposing, particularly any sort of "timing push".  
2401 days, 2 hours, 18 minutes ago
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echoclusterveteran
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>> campaign games are specifically tailored to increase the effectiveness of the cloaker races

Except the poor Privateers, with which I am finding it almost patently impossible to succeed in a campaign game...
2401 days, 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
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mycroft
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Even as a Bird with the best cloaking technology for long term placement. It is very, very difficult to locate a HW specifically early enough to bring in other ships to handle it. (Sure it isn't hard to pick the cluster but to locate the exact planet that is the HW is different) Especially now that a single Resolute cannot handle a HW with the added 100 Def / 20 Fighters to the SB. The only other option would to go for a strong one side attack which would have to have been engineered probably before you knew who was on one side or the other. Which is a very bold and risky start. And if the defenses have been boosted, the planet then becomes a much more powerful thing to topple.

I know I can knock out someone really early in the game. But on the expert tiers of players. It is very, very difficult to pull such a thing off against anyone. And if you happened to be neighbors to the Fascist with a GD overhead. You just ruined yourself in one fell swoop. Against a bunch of new players sure, it is a lot more feasible. The fear factor that kicks in and the loss of correct immediate action will spur such things.

Simply put, to go for a pre 30 elimination is very difficult. It will leave you suffering economically. And it will place you into an immediate "roll" for early elimination yourself also. All that needs done is for a minefield to go up and your blind advance will be repaid for its folly. And you will be ripe for the picking.
2401 days, 1 hours, 52 minutes ago
View darth balls's profile
darth balls
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You make some points Spacesquad; and I guess I often rely on my silver tongue to get through those first twenty turns.  But overall economic victory is made possible by jamming the ship queue and establishing outposts everywhere renders you invulnerable to an easy extermination by 2 or 3 cloaking ships, and anyone who tries will quickly find themselves on the top of the Borg's hit list.  The more experienced players of course will never allow this to happen, so of course strategies will have varying levels of success depending on your competitors and the specific game settings (winner-take-all or alliances allowed).
2401 days, 1 hours, 39 minutes ago
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spacesquad
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We are going off topic, there are some myths within planets that beginners like to believe.
One is that Privateers are too strong and another is that the Borg is unbeatable in the late game.
Both are wrong, but that should be discussed somewhere else. As I wrote in the first post no propaganda here. try to think out of your "Cube" :P

@DM: The championship games are no alliance games, when the turns are open you will see that at least in Scorpius the cooperation between the races is at a minimum. (I have 1 no torp MBR for ex. and i traded 1 SSD for an Onyx). I already told Tom in the game, the best effect I took from my mercy with the Privateer was the fear that instantly spread among my enemies. "Is there a cloaked MBR? I do not know, so i better jump of that unsave planet and travel around in space. Those few webmines i can control with my 10 Heavy phasers." In the end Mesh robbed 2 Gorbies and 2 Golems.
2401 days, 1 hours, 20 minutes ago
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star72066
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I disagree Mr. Emperor - The problem with the cloaking torp races, and I'll speak for the Lizards, isn't a large carrier race sitting next to me. Given any kind of reasonable planet start, I'll ace that race 99-100 times.  

The problem for the cloaking torpers, such as the Lizards, although the Lizards less than others, is the Carrier race you can't reach early, that has the time to develop and comes at you with 40 carriers in End Game.  40 Golems, Cubes, or Gorbie's is GAME OVER for a cloaking torper.

There is no substitute for the power one feels by ramming 40 Golems and assorted support, down a Bird or Fascist empire in end game. (Bear in mind - I have never played the Borg but realize that might be a surpassable power trip end game.)

In my experiences Mr. Emperor - If your a Bird/Fascist/Lizard and you don't secure a game long alliance or destroy a neighbor carrier races' homeworld, it's a fail. Allowing the Borg to materalize is certain death, sacking a Borg neighbor or any carrier race Pre-20 - simpleton. (Again given any kind of reasonable planet start)

The probem isn't getting them, it's getting them ALL.

2401 days, 1 hours, 19 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
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Yeoch, I will have to have a talk with Mesh about that poor performance. Even I expected a stronger alliance but in fact it's only a handful of moves, much like Taurus. Only 1 MBR capture and 1 SSD eh?

I definitely agree with you spacequad, the privateer are not too strong and the borg can be beaten even in the late game. The most important thing is always the commander, the game is quite balanced.
However on the other hand I will also point out that you are propagating another myth, that of borg early game weakness. This is likewise a myth, in experienced hands the borg suffer no more at the start than any other large ship race.
2401 days, 1 hours, 13 minutes ago
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coldblooded
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I'll have to agree with dungeon master on the Borg early game myself. I've beaten Borg multiple times early game but no where did I see any evidence of them being more helpless than the other races, just takes tactics and planning like anyone else. 
2401 days, 1 hours, 3 minutes ago
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star72066
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My simple point is this: Cloaking Torpers thrive early - Power Carriers late - It is known.

If your not an aggressive player, the cloaking torpers probably won't fit you well.

2401 days, 1 hours, 1 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Please, just Emperor, no need for a Mr. It sounds odd.

Well star72066, in my mind you're only partially correct and I think you should at least listen a bit to Mycroft, current supreme commander of the romulans. It is in practical terms really quite hard to manage the stunning early game destruction of a race, any race.

End game 40 to 50 super carriers is in all practical terms 40 to 50 battleships + 40-50 starbases. You can at any point trade a battleship for a carrier, that's the way the game is built. Some super carriers, like the pathetic golem, need only their shields dented to 50% to lose 95% of the time against a base, a battle-cruiser and weak torps will easily do the job, no need for a full battleship.
The problem with this trade is the underlying mathematics of the trade give the opponent PBP and you potentially slag planets or worse your cloakers can't maintain presence and it becomes the opponent's ground. So in this sense I agree with you, it can be very rough to deal with that kind of threat.
However and here's the rub, the corollary should also be true. For the early gained ground, you should have more bases and many more battleships than they have carriers. Either it's A- incompetence and failure to capitalize on conquered territory simply not reaping the benefits of conquest by laying down bases, or B- the battleship races are not in fact gaining enough ground early on, which returns to the original premise that it's hard to actually kill anyone competent with a battleship race in this game. 

We saw thin lizzy almost, though not quite capitalize on his early territory. We don't know the details yet (except Spacesquad of course). Dines, Halion in Sagittarius I am watching closely.
2401 days, 0 hours, 29 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

As you wish Emperor -

Thin Lizzy is a great example of a Master Lizard destroying a supreme commander Borg neighbor and furthering that, building the 150+ starbases needed to finish off the Lizard win. 

I can almost assuredly tell you, that he wishes Spacesquad was a Big Carrier race and not the Crystal. The Crystal is the poison in what was to be, a perfectly played Lizard game.

I have played the Lizard almost exclusively in yesteryear and quite often since my return to planets here at Nu. and destroying a carrier race neighbor, regardless of the skill level, is not a difficult task for a competent Lizard. On the contrary, good luck stopping it.

You simply will be overwhelmed with early economics and builds. Not even minefields or a good start to Carriers can stop it. I'm getting your homeworld and I'll stamp a guarentee on it.  Again, given I don't recieve a total and complete hose on starting planets.

Once the HW is down - It's over. 

The Lizards are the single most aggressive race and played any other way is a fail. Thin Lizzy's performance in the first championship match was a masterpeice, his downfall will be a Crystal Player with an equal masterpeice. Given the two masterpeices Crystal > Lizards IMHO. We'll see.

An Epic game for sure and one EVERY Lizard and Crystal hopeful should probably review.

2401 days, 0 hours, 17 minutes ago
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coldblooded
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
I'm surprised Lizzy doesn't have more good beams to deal with SS tbh. Obviously we can't review the game just yet but I imagine Spacesquad has managed to secure some good battlecarriers to go coupled with his webmines, making Lizzy's job a real piece of work.

Now I don't wanna sound like I'm taking anything away from our neighborhood creature whom I've seen somewhere before(destroy all monsters maybe? been too long), But the game truly looks like a upset from a outside standpoint. Who knows really at this point, we'll all get to witness both sides very soon I imagine.
2401 days, 0 hours, 14 minutes ago
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mycroft
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
I have actually performed the awesome killrace move of nailing the Homeworld prior to turn 10. 

However, in my some 15 games I have played here on Nu. This has happened once. And that was before they added the Starbase defenses into the beginning. 

I'm not saying that it is impossible. It's just not likely. And it leaves you in a position where you are not able to quickly gain the ground you have just "conquered". Really it benefits everyone else neighboring that ground as they gain another 25% more ground for free. Where you now have to go in and clean up whats left. And a determined commander can last for a long time. Maybe even become someones vassal and return to haunt you. I ended up losing disastrously in the game I made the early kill on. The neighbor of my neighbor grew furiously. And due to his exploding start due to an unchecked boundary, he needed no ally to win.

The Battleships win in fights where you can spread the fight over a large battlefield. They do not require the same logistics the carrier races do. So you can engage a larger spectrum then they can usually. A Battleship economy can afford the fuel to attack on many points due to a lower hull mass.

Carriers win in fights where the fighting is concentrated. In a smaller area of fighting, it is quite evident who is going to win. Whoever has the biggest hammer. So the fight for them is to stick where the buffalo go. And suck up the resources on the way. A Carrier economy cannot always fight on a wide scale, because the fuel expense is at times too great to just go on a goose hunt for little battleships.

Cloaking ships add to the ability to appear in more places than one, and are best used to confuse a player to stay in one place long enough that a full counter-attack is no longer possible. Be it use for sweeping or laying mines, hunting weak planets, capturing/killing weak ships. Regardless the cloaking device is best used to scout ahead, and confuse a player by hiding your cards.

The only race that can do otherwise in the cloaking aspect is the Birds due to the Dark Wing. However, they must still use the same principle in order to win on the grand scheme. Attack on a large vector to be difficult to single out. Where each loss is trivial because the fuel loss for a carrier to move 300 LY's and handle one ship is a lot less than your cost to send a ship 150 LY's to attack the planet on the flank. And use cloaking ships to give uncertainty as to where strength is and isn't. Kind of like the Borg in a sense but there is a true living beating heart somewhere, you just have to find it.

I think this is just about as simple as I can get with the Battleship to Carrier scheme. And the reality of attempting an early kill. Both have equal opportunities in the end. And both of them rely on forcing the other player to fight a battle you prefer to fight. Allowing your opponent to gain the momentum to fight his methodology will always bring defeat. You must force your will on other players to fight the battle you prefer. Be it militarily, economically, or diplomatically. It is all in the commanders ability to use his assets correctly, to rally or instill fear in a way to cause others to fall into his plans, and the ability to know and guess the correct location(s) of major hostile assets. Everything else is drawling on the chalkboard. Everything else is theory inside a bottle. And yes, those points are important, you never know when you will hit those particular situations. But ultimately it doesn't come to small military battles the majority of the time. 
2400 days, 22 hours, 43 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

Cold - I would be suprised if the majority of Thin Lizzy's T-Rex's aren't Heavy Phaser / MK 8's, but due to Spacesquads size an inevitably his economics, you can't have enough and even the ones you do have, is slow slow sledding just to get your LCC in the door of a planet, which invariably will have ZERO fuel... On top of that, my guess is Spacesquad has Gorbie's, from his E.E. conquests and that makes even sticking a Heavy Phaser REX into a webmine a sure bust of a sweeper.  Combine that with the cloaking Torpers Space is sure to have and It's a tough tough position for Lizzy. Lizzys' one advantage is regular minefields and while he can likely make Space's life difficult defensively, inevitably, I predict a Crystal win. The small tanks on the Mad's and REX make it worse. If Thin Lizzy pulls out a win, it will be the single greatest played Lizard game ever played in the history of VGA Planets - Bar none. I do not expect such but nonetheless a clinic on how to play the Lizards to be sure. In my mind, Spacesquad and Thin Lizzy are both to be feared on the battle fronts. Just an incredible performance by both and one I can't wait to have a peek at.

Mycroft - I cannot disagree with you more. The key to any Cloaking Torper in relation to a Carrier neighbor is not pecking away at the limbs, it's striking the heart - The HW. Your primarly a Bird player - It takes Two Darkwings a few throw away cloakers and a Resolute with a full minefield on board. HW - DOWN game over. Surely not as difficult as you make it seem. You beat the carrier races by preventing them from building carriers, there is no better way to do that, then to ACE the H.W. 

Generally as the Lizards, I will bust the freighter lanes, download on the colonies, until all is in place, then move for the easy kill. With the Lizard early economics, it's Pre-30 and if the planets are right Pre-20. Three T-Rex a few LCC or Reps and 2 LCC with full minefields (It can be done with less than this) - Homeworld down and there isn't anything you can do about it. The Lizard race is ideal to assassinate their carrier neighbors.

Your making a simpleton event - seem monumental - It simply isn't. The Cloaking device is best served towing carriers off a homeworld - so your battleships can lay the killing blow from 83 lt years away, so even if you built a transwarp carrier, your still helpless even in any pre-intercepts.

Now you claim this hinders growth - again I disagree. You just rid yourself of a problem that will cost immensely more to rid yourself of later and you have created space to grow and It's not like your freighters back home are being harrassed or have to stop building.

2400 days, 22 hours, 35 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
I realize we're drifting off topic so maybe we should create a different thread.

That's very well said Mycroft.

Star, I've looked over your games. Let's take ship limit snapshot of turn 23 in Taurus. There are 9 cubes in Taurus at this point.
In Estes sector you have 7 mad and 5 rex, a respectable fleet but it is dry docked and not in the combat zone.
In Pisro you have 3 mad and 1 rex.
In both cases you are relying on your LCC cruiser to push the enemy, not a hammer killing Rex blow, and in both case I think a Taurus level borg would put up a very stiff fight, I don't see any rolling over and dying on the horizon even with a few LCC floating around. 
2400 days, 21 hours, 21 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

Your comparing apples to oranges in that the maps in Estes and Pisro were larger and not rounded like they were in Taurus. You had a higher density of planets and less light years across and top to bottom, but ok I'll comment honestly.

Estes was a poorly played game, by my own admission - one of my first back after many years away. Bird/Robot neighbors and went diplomacy with Robot as he had a war with the Colonies and I figured it best to let them reduce themselves. NAP with the Bird, so he could war his Borg neighbor, which he never did. Colonies won the Robot war allied with the Bird and fought a two front war the rest of the game. Eliminated the Bird - owned the Colonies H.W. Nothing immpressive to be found in this game.  By the time it was all sorted, the Borg was walking - allied with the Borg and took 2nd to end it.

Pisro - The poor ship count was caused by a war with the Borg, it fascilitated a slow warship start (Annihilations) but increased planets made it up. The Borg was stubborn and I was rusty to say the least. I took out his H.W. but it was a sloppy kill for sure. Nothing outstanding here either. I won the game, but to be sure, not a masterpeice.

Both games could certainly have been played better - these were my first games back and re-learning it all was a process. On top of that, I suffered from missed turns and to many games. Like a kid that found his favorite candy store again, I ate off to much to soon.

AND

You played a great game in Taurus, nobody can deny such, your ending numbers are outstanding however be honest do you honestly believe you would have had as many Cubes as you did at turn 23, if you weren't able to pour 100% focus into economics?  By turn 30 you had no significant VCR's. Zero and ideal.

Cloaking Torpers have got to be aggressive versus carrier neighbors, we can argue all day on whether it can or can't be done - lets agree that you have try or your dead.

2400 days, 17 hours, 24 minutes ago
View tom graves's profile
tom graves
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Star,

   That's the bottom line. For cloakers its got to be all in early. Whether you die on turn 20 or turn 70, you still are going to die if you don't dispose of your carrier (or really any) neighbor.
2400 days, 10 hours, 34 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Agreed star, you have to try or you're in trouble. Do me a favor and next game jobo starts join and try to jump him. Hell I'll even try and jump him for kicks. 
Sagittarius right now looks like a full on borg-lizard brawl, and the borg is distinctly *not* dead early and despite good punches has plenty of teeth left. I will be curious to see if Dines is using his race's fleet or something "borrowed" with investments come game's end.
 


2400 days, 7 hours, 6 minutes ago
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mycroft
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Dines has investments this time, from two different players actually in this one. The kicker will be whether or not they are enough or the right choices. As there is very little time for cloning.
2400 days, 5 hours, 9 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

I'm pulling for Dines! lol - And I hope he enlists help. I really think it's a tough position for the Borg, coming off what you did with the Borg in # 2 - The POWER of the Borg is fresh in this groups mind. I think the Borg will be eliminated, and that certainly has nothing to do with his skill, as sometimes skill just serves to make the inevitable a little more challenging.

With 5 games going - 2 full blown and 3 infants - I'll be down for new ones for awhile. 5 is already way to many, and when this vacation of mine ends in two weeks, I'll be making quick/ready turns again, I know it. I think the biggest bane of a lot of us, is we bite off to much.

Remember yesteryears, when you could control mineral settings?  Heavy Mineral settings always favored the carrier races and thats where were at in Nu. right now. So on top of being the weaker of the races, the mineral settings are currently geared to the power with small meteors dropping more on several planets everyturn. Campaign Mode is the wrong tree for balance, which brings me to another comment about yesteryears, 100 add-ons were made back then with the idea of balancing the game, everything from hell hammer torpedoes to racial and ship adjustments, all of them failed, they just tilted the power. Balance is found in settings such as lowering the mineral totals, and time spent on this campaign stuff is suffering the game and site itself. When AP's from christmas day are still untallied in the middle of January, it's a fail. When bug reports go unaddressed and so many are still being reported 2 years in, it's a fail. I know this is a hobby for the site owners and I appreciate all the efforts to bring VGAP to us, I really do, however, I really think your investing time and energy that would be better served elsewhere. Just my thoughts..

My apologies to the soon to be new emperor for the Hijacking.

2400 days, 4 hours, 44 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

Lizard > Fed  (The Lizard should be able to out-produce)

Lizard = Bird (Offense wins)  

Lizard = Fascist (Loki and Glory make offensives difficult either way. Vic is better but more Liz Ships).

Lizard > Privateer (The only Lizard walk in the park race)

Lizard < Borg (Ug!)

Lizard = Crystal (Early is doable - Late Ug!)

Lizard = E.E. (Early Yah! Late attrition rates are brutal)

Lizard < Robots (All around ugly race for the Lizard)

Lizard = Rebel (Even late a Rex/Mad takes a Rush)

Lizard = Colonial (Same - Even late a Rex/Mad takes a Virgo - livable attrition)

Thats my take on the Lizards - Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Lizard > Fed/Privateer

Lizard = Bird Fascist Crystal E.E. Rebel Colonial

Lizard < Borg Robots

2400 days, 2 hours, 47 minutes ago
View juuso's profile
juuso
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
I agree with your analysis star. Rex/Mad takes also Annihilation every time. With Rush and Virgo it's not a sure deal. If Rush takes the left side (which it many times does) Rex/Mad has 66% chance of success. If the Lizards are facing more than one carrier, the Madonnzila doesn't even scratch the second one. When I was facing Fruchtquake, his Virgos came in fleets of something like seven. It would have been a nightmare if I didn't have some Gorbies with me.

I also think that Lizards are actually better equipped against the Crystals than many other races. Rex has a bigger fuel tank than other battleships that size. Lizards can also produce more those 10 beam battleships than other races. Though if Crystal economy runs well, he still may be able to produce more mines than Lizards can sweep. I have no idea how those carrier races can deal with Crystals when it's so hard for Lizards.
2400 days, 0 hours, 33 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

    Hi Juuso -

I would rather face the Rebel over the Colonial and in fact I almost included the Colonial in the downside for the Lizards. The problem with the Colonial is they take away the Covert Ops options. Lizards are master minefield layers, 2nd or 3rd only to the Robot and perhaps late Borg, but the Colonial Fighter Sweep trumps that. They are also impossible to deny fuel, with the Cobol, which can be an effective tactic against the other carrier hogs. They tend to pump out a lot of Virgo's also, as it is a Trit based ship and most times doesn't need beams. Your lucky if they put junk engines and try to tow with Cobol, but even if not, intercepting Cobol with LCC whereever possible is prudent. LCC > Cobol. I lean hard with the Colonial but I included them in the equal because it is not impossible for the Lizards. As a well played End Game of Robots and Borg are.

Edited to Add: A well played Evil Empire in end game, while every bit as powerful as a Robot, lacks the mine laying to keep your LCC out. You can't fight Gorbie's, unless absolutely necessary, such as protecting a heavy fuel planet in end game, but you can get to his economics, his freighters, his Neutronics, his planets for downloads. The Robot denies all of that. So while the E.E. and his Gorbie's are a nightmare - It isn't an impossible game either.

2399 days, 23 hours, 16 minutes ago
View juuso's profile
juuso
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Yep.

And if Virgo gets the left side against Rex/Mad, it will usually win (61%). If Rex/Mad gets the left side against a Virgo their chance of winning is 61%. Virgo being better than Rush against that combo makes sense, because naturally Virgo with 20% damage is better than Rush with 20% damage.

Sorry, maybe this text doesn't belong to this thread, but to an overly detailed Lizard guide :)
2398 days, 1 hours, 53 minutes ago
View elgeologo's profile
elgeologo
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Hi
Maybe someone (spacesquad) could edit the frist post with the easy and difficult enemies for each race. I think it is handly for a Newbie...

2398 days, 0 hours, 59 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
If spacequad doesn't soon, I'll propose my own table and we can argue about it with more off topic conversation. ;)
2398 days, 0 hours, 57 minutes ago
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echoclusterveteran
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Go for it, Emperor!  We want to hear the wisdom of the Almighty!
2398 days, 0 hours, 55 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
I kinda like this power trip... does something for the ego...
Spacesquad, careful, you'll have many more months of it than I will
2398 days, 0 hours, 46 minutes ago
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tom graves
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
DM, 

Dude, you're Canadian. You know you're the best, you just go aboot your business with quiet efficiency. Ego trip...bah!
2398 days, 0 hours, 24 minutes ago
View azzazzello's profile
azzazzello
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
This is all good but in the end the people that will benefit most from this information are the new players as people who played for years will generally know most of this.

Fascists might be a good counter to Privateers but neither are newbie friendly races and a new person trying one of those races might be turned off the game as they both lack straight up power and require certain degree of finesse or manipulation of host order.  I propose we create a guide on how newbie friendly each race is and recommend people who are trying to learn the game pick one of the "easy" races.

Here is my stab at it:
Easy:
Fed
Lizard
Colonial
Robot

Medium:
Birds
Rebel
Crystal

Hard:
Privateers
Cyborg
Fascists
Evil Empire
2397 days, 21 hours, 56 minutes ago
View spacesquad's profile
spacesquad
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Sorry guys, i have no time to do some grafic work at the moment. Maybe early Feb, so go ahead and post your tables here, i will try to bring them on a single picture later on.

Best race for beginners is Fed, simply because you can refit your mistakes away and you have a eco bonus.

2397 days, 21 hours, 11 minutes ago
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spacesquad
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
OK this is now the 3 Version but still a draft. A quick one so you get an Idea what i want to have for each race. Sorry for stealing all the pictures!
I would like to add more then just to race advantages, i want to make it clear to new players if the race is slow, fast, sneaky. If you have strong ships or need to use tricky tacktics. But all without reading a detailled guide
I am not a Robot expert, so below its just a preview on the look.
2397 days, 20 hours, 27 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

Ships to build: Q-Tanker - Catspaw - Instrumentality - Golem  Whats a Robot  without Catspaws? Dead - Hah!

2397 days, 20 hours, 14 minutes ago
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spacesquad
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Damm you Star! :)  i just wanted to give you a quick idea, and now i am working on it since 2 hours already! OK, will add the Cat as it is the most important ship for the robot.

First plan was only  arrows on a picture, but it would be way to messy with 11 races each with 11 arrows. So second plan was just to add the best and worst enemy. But some races then will have no error at all.  So now i guess i have to make 1 picture per race.
2397 days, 19 hours, 53 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

What you have is awesome!  I'm in awe of how great this looks.

I would make two more suggestions: 1. Speed 3 - I would substitute Mobility 3  (Speed really isn't accurate word, as every race but the Privateer has the same top speed.)  Even "Fuel - Heavy"  Medium light type of thing.

Also, the Race logo's will definately be confusing to a new player. Hell, I find myself embarrassed that I don't even know them all. I get the Borg - Privateer - Lizard (Because it's green) - I'm guessing the red one is the Fascist.  The R is the Rebel, I only know this cuz your page is the Robots and there are only 2 - R's. Couldn't tell ya what the Blue star system is...Feds? The Yellow one with the Angel - Dunno. Orange - Colonies? But it has to be either them or Crystals. A new player would be screwed trying to figure this part out. Perhaps you could put the names of the races underneath these icon in small letters?

I'm totally not being critical, what you are doing is amazing thus far, and I can finally see the potential in a final product for this. I am just trying to be helpful and honest.

2397 days, 18 hours, 40 minutes ago
View elgeologo's profile
elgeologo
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Awesome... spacesquad
Very useful information for starters!

I think than speed means development rate (the fighters races become powerfull late game, because he needs time to build fighters, automas, etc)

If it means mobility i will add some points because their great fuel tanks...

Economy is very Du-dependant and have a early need for Merlins but it has more flexibility because his ships cost only Du. (It leave Tr and Mo for fighter construction)

It is a good Idea
With the lizards i will set:
Speed: ¿6?
Economy: 10
Military: 5

Ships to build: Serpent (eros), Lizard, Mandonzilla, T-Rex

Good against Privateers and fascist
Bad against Cyborg and Robots

Very powerful early game and Poor late game
2397 days, 9 hours, 7 minutes ago
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kosmonymous
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Superb idea! Nice job on the illustrations.

Robot economy is not that bad what you say. They have cheap minefields so they don't need that much hich tech beams. Their mineral ratios are very good and golems and instrus are one of the games most cost effective carriers when counting cheap fighters.

They have hard times with fuel, but so do all carrier races and robot tanks are bigger. The biggest weakness is against crystals and the problem of starbase destroying. Their natural enemy is the cyborg, which can decimate instrus with annihilations and finish the following golem with a biocide. They have also strong starbases anywhere needed. Cyborgs are also seen as abominations by the robots. Colonies are also a problem, but more even as robot mines counter colony mines and colony sweep counters robot mines. I'd say robot fleet is still bit stronger head to head. Swap the automa with instru as a ship to build. Automas aren't that useful. Q-tanker should be replaced with LDSF. Every race should have a suggestion of building LDSF. They are backbone of any economy.

Thus robots are an early carrier attack race similar to rebel as they can overwhelm the enemy with mines and strong carriers before they have starbases or resources for mines to stop the invasion. In the endgame they can be formidable attackers or build a steel fortress that few dare to attack.
2397 days, 7 hours, 4 minutes ago
View spacesquad's profile
spacesquad
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
It´s more about the look as the content. As i mentioned, i need your input to fill the page. If you want i can also share the template, you so can all create your personal guide.

Regarding the Automa. From my point of few its far more useful then the Instru. Same amount of DUR to build but can build fighters in space (try that with a 80 Cargo Instru). LDSFs are useful for every race, so i focused on the special ships.

Again, the attempt is to create a guide for new players, if i could, i would make it interactive, with hovering information and nice graphics. Like a visual "how to play" section. It can not replace a detailed guide, but i can make you hungry to try that race because it has cool looking strong ships or sneaky cloakers. Maybe its more a race advertising then a guide.

@Star,
You are right, mobility is the better way to express it. Guess we have to define what category we put on the sheet, and then how we rate them. I will also add the race names (Hovering Info would be perfect)

2397 days, 2 hours, 25 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

Hovering info would be perfect. Indeed.  I disagree space - I think it will be a very useful quick guide for new players. See the important basics all on one page and get a feel for the flavor of a Race. This is good stuff for new and even intermediate players looking for a race change.

When each race template is complete, opening a folder for discussion on the values, ships to build, etc. etc. will create a lot of intrigue and enjoyment in the debating process. Just make sure you reserve yourself final say, after all the debating has been exhausted. It will be interesting to see how the majority of the community views the values and must-builds of each race.

The final versions of all the races should have a permanent place somewhere on the site.

I'm anxious so I'll give the Lizard Must-Builds now:

Eros - LCC - Mad - Trex  - ;P

2397 days, 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
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turssi
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Great layout!

Instead of listing problems, we should list solutions! E.g. for Robots:

Heavy fuel use: Limit attack fleet size & send LDSF filled with enough rawmaterials for building fuel production on captured planets. Send a neutronic fuel carrier as well.

Heavy need for duranium and neutronium production: build a Merlin and a Refinery ships vefore ship limit.

Or something like this, so that the newbie doesn't hate the end game when they finally get there :-)

2397 days, 1 hours, 30 minutes ago
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star72066
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                             MOBILITY                      ECONOMY                   MILITARY

The Federation          7                                      3                                   7

The Lizards                7                                      9                                   3

Romulans                   6                                      4                                   5

Fascists                      7                                      8                                   6

Privateer                     9                                      7                                   1

Borg                           10                                     10                                 9

Tholian                       7                                       3                                   5

Evil Empire                 3                                      6                                   10

Robots                        5                                      5                                    9

Rebels                        4                                      4                                    8

Colonies                     8                                      6                                    8

Here is a chart with some values plugged in : This is by no means perfect but simply a starting point. I don't want to hear how ignorant I am - I already know this ;p

My thougts on Economy ratings before I'm lynched for putting the Empire ahead of the Rebel. I rated these with how taxing their ship builds are on the overall economy. Tholians and Rebel are Moly heavy races, and therefore the most taxing economically. I tried to group this idea with the overall economics it takes to produce the important war ships and their ability to create economics. The Federation recieved a 3 because while his money is good - his mining is bad. Everyone can make money, the mining hit to the Fed is a huge deficiet on the economics. Thus the Fed recieved the lowest rating, along with the Tholian, whose Moly heavy Ships are a burden to produce. You get the idea...

Mobility is self explanatory, although I guessed at some values, as I've never played some races.

Military I based on overall strength of the top ship, although this should probably be based on overall military strength of the entire empire, my coffee ran out and my brain convulsed when I tried to consider these values.

This chart needs much work, I insist.  I was thinking values 1-11 would be easier. 1 being the best in a category and 11 the worst.  Or "Easy"  "Normal"  "Difficult"

In any event - My chart creates an entire NEW GENERATION of Borg players, because after looking at it, who wouldn't wanna play those guys as a new player! Hah!!

2397 days, 1 hours, 24 minutes ago
View seveiht's profile
seveiht
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
I have a suggestion:

Try moving the current race icon to the center of the circle of races, The arrows can then be made smaller and look a little cleaner.


2395 days, 17 hours, 0 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
2395 days, 16 hours, 43 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Ok, so there it is, that is VGA planets in a nutshell.

Dark green = heavy advantage, you always pose a significant threat to them by virtue of your race
Green = advantage
Grey = even footing, will most likely be decided purely by numbers
Yellow = disadvantaged
Red = heavily disadvantaged, very particular and careful strategy will be required at all times, if at all possible find an ally and/or invest heavily in ship trades

Feel free to disagree, here is my rationale and assumptions and then I'll discuss every match-up in a sentence or two. This is my own, personal estimates using my experience and understanding of VGApV3 over many years.
The assumption is a high level player vs. another high level player, something rarely seen outside of championship games.
This is an average over all stages of the game, early game, ship limit mid game, and end game BUT with a weighting towards end-game because the vast bulk of our play time is under end-game conditions where the queue moves slowly and bases creep over the map.
It is an average over all states and sizes of empires, assumes you will be able to get a few but not an endless supply of beneficial ship trades. 

The analysis basis:
#1 rule - possibility of beneficial ship trades - ships are the currency of VGAp, you win through ships see this thread: http://planets.nu/discussion/quality-vs-quantity-a-vga-planets-inquiry-into-values
#2 rule - possibility of gaining territory for minimal cost 
2395 days, 15 hours, 40 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Race by race now with some commentary (I'll keep adding to this):

Fed vs:
Gorn: Their cloakers can split your mid-small ship combinations and make beneficial ship trades. You must lose a ship to take a base. They can take your bases with ground assault until the late game. Advantage Gorn.
Romulan: Cloaking battleship/battle-cruiser wrecks your mid-small ships and goes toe-to-toe with the nova. Advantage Romulan.
Klingon: Your fleet is simply overall stronger but pop ships can wreck fed combinations even with Scotty bonuses, ultimately you must rely heavily on the missouri + nova or carrier trades. Klingon always forces you to lose ships as you fight bases, they don't lose ships to bases even in the late game. Overall neutral. 
Pirate: Asymmetric opponent faces Loki. Still a pain to deal with bases, but he has similar problem. Advantage Fed. 
Borg: No good solution to the cubes except to lose ships, sometimes lots of ships. Ship combinations can be rocked by mixing up biocide/annihilation/firecloud, the borg rarely if ever loses more. Biocide takes 3-4 planets before going down, you lose 3-4 ships to take similar territory. Advantage borg. Your worst over-all opponent. 
Tholian: Asymmetric opponent not likely to fight, ship lists if forced are of almost equal strength. Super refit reduces asymmetric advantage of webmines. Loki hampers cloaked tow games. Can swing either way.
Empire: Empire ship list on paper significantly stronger and should lead to significantly better trades. In practice it simply never is due to lack of armament/mobility. In theory they take your planets at no loss with SSD, rarely pans out. Empire wins only in extreme late game (150+ turns) or allied to compensate for gaping holes in their abilities.
Cylon: Careful management of fed ship list can negate size and strength of cylon fleet. Cylon suffers nearly as much as fed do in taking planets, perhaps more since an instrumentality must be sacrificed vs. a cheap fed 6 beam diplomacy. Cylon mines factor little to the fed with super-refit and careful play. This is an even fight.
Rebel:  Rebel rush is very hard to deal with (not just for fed). Cannot break it on starbases, towing to a base may be a quick path to RGA. Junky rebel ships tend to outperform, ridiculous low tech1 cygnus can mess up ship combinations. Rebel takes your planets and bases with ease, you fight his planets losing ships every time. Advantage rebel.
Colonial: Colonial ship list is almost even with fed with slight advantage to minefield supremacy of colonial and careful use of the battlestar. Trading territory for ships is all in colonial advantage, you lose ships every time, virgo outperforms its mass and takes 3-4 bases to go down. Advantage colonial.  

Overall:
The fed are a weak race in VGAp3, this has been seen in statistics with the Nu players even though there are quite a few dedicated fed players on the Nu server. They often survive but rarely win due to having only one real race to which they have a significant advantage over and must judiciously pick and chose when to lose a base/ship. They are designed to work well in alliance, from the outset, much like the empire. Fed emperor will be hard to achieve. (Go Halion!)

Gorn vs:
Fed: See above.
Romulan: The cloaking battleship and cruiser is a significant threat and more often than not taking away ships from the enemy will favour the bird. Gorn can take bases without losing ships, coupled with a stronger overall economy means advantage gorn.
Klingon: Klingon ship list is marginally better than lizard and can badly damage lightweight lizard flee with glory. Lizard is a superior ground attack race in early game, Klingon is a superior ground attack race late, and does not need to lose ships to your bases. Overall an even and tough fight.
Pirate: Pirate is almost helpless, ships, planets everything falls with ease. Lizard's best matchup.
Borg: Borg cubes will stomp lizard fleet flat, absolutely terrible trades can occur, lizard often forced on defensive. Must force a cruiser war of attrition, and a careful one to win. The LCC has to get in and somehow break the firecloud. A handful of planets and bases *might* fall to GA but not the important ones. Overall the gorn's worst enemy.  
Tholian: Asymmetric opponent will often not fight. On paper fleets are almost even, in reality crystal fleet always fights to advantage over small ships. Gorn ability to take bases almost entirely negated by webhits to the cloaking ships. Advantage crystal.
Empire: Empire fleet on paper is considerably stronger and in the very late game (150+ turns) it really is. On paper they can take back their starbases you ground-assault and technically they might even be able to reinforce them. In practice lizard has every advantage over the empire.
Cylon: Ship trades are all bad, requiring combinations for even the instrumentality, having the lightest fleet in the game means the minehits do in fact hurt, and can potentially be ruinous to combat and taking planets. Not an impossible fight, but definitely uphill even early on.
Rebel: Rush is a big problem, similar problem for all torpedo races. Rebel can wreck captured bases but more importantly wreck your own bases and territory. Eventually clans multiplying continuously as they do, rebel will outperform in taking and re-taking territory. It can be a long war, overall even with rebel prevailing the longer it goes.
Colonial: A similar fight to the cylon, only this time your economy does not allow benefit to break their mines. Their mines go up, and stay up, forever. Their virgo takes your planets much better than robot ships and might as well be a death star as far as your ship mass range is concerned. Advantage colonial.

Overall: The lizard are a middle of the pack race in VGAp3. They have both good fights and bad fights with strong territory and ship gains early on and that balance often allows them to take big chunks of the map particularly against novice players. When forced to actually fight with their own fleet they can suffer great losses. If their territorial growth stalls, their starbase count stalls, the mathematics of the game are weighted against them, time is not their friend.

Romulan vs:
Fed: see above.
Gorn: see above.
Klingon: Klingon glory simply ruins your game, you will simply lose ships,
even playing carefully. The klingon takes your planets with ease and you have to lose ships to take their bases. Klingon advantage.
Pirate: The pirate doesn't fear you and you don't fear him, he has a better economy for
minefields, you have more beams. Even should he get an SSD, it's not a trivial matter keeping it alive against the cloaking battleship. There's no significant edge either way.
Borg: Better off than most races against the borg. You can handily win a cruiser war and occasionally even force a good trade with cloaked intercept darkwing. The problem is bases, taking on massive borg bases is often like sawing off your only good arm. Advantage borg.    
Tholian: Your ship list is stronger, on paper, but again the asymmetric nature of webmines gives advantage to the tholian. Ground is taken at loss on both sides and denying territory to the tholian is difficult due to webdrain. Advantage crystal.
Empire: Fleet wise this fight is totally even, the empire only gaining a PBP edge if multiple death stars alone are deployed and even then it's dicey in the PBP trade who is better off. The empire has no other good way of forcing a beneficial trade. Technically the empire can take your bases by SSD, but it's somewhat of a joke to send SSD into a war theatre with darkwings unless used as bait. On the opposite side, you too must lose ships to planets and in the very late game, he has the edge. Even fight overall.
Cylon: Not bad ship trades overall, much like the empire the chance to engineer beneficial trades exists. The difficulty is the reduced usefulness of the battlecruiser. The robot golem while losing 30% of the time against a base is still much better than your 100% darkwing loss. Advantage robot.
Rebel: The rebel will often trade to advantage with fleet combinations. Rush alone can be beneficial to the romulan, but rush + cygnus and down go 2 darkwings. The rebel has the fleet edge. Massive problems taking territory from the rebel whereas none at all from the rebel. Advantage rebel.
Colonial: Much akin to facing the cylons, however the battlecruiser over-all fights better fights, however setting up good trades is more difficult due to positional leverage of the colonial. Same problem with taking territory, as always.

Overall: The romulans are a weak race in VGAp3, like the fed this has also been noticed with our crop of Nu players though there are fewer who specialize in them than the fed. They are not at as much of a disadvantage as other torpedo races in ship trades, their battleship is extremely versatile, tough and can take down many mid/heavy carriers for very reasonable PBP trades. They are very good at denying territory gains but their Achilles heel is always taking territory. Their options when floating above a base are invariably "I'm going to lose a #$% ship..."    

Klingons vs:  
Fed: See above.
Gorn: See above.
Romulan: See above.
Pirate: This is arguably the pirate's worst matchup of them all (ask Vepr). The pirate is seriously threatened by pop ships escorting the excellent ill-wind battlecruiser. The pirate has no options and against a skilled opponent often finds himself mass producing bloodfangs just to live another day. One of the most one-sided fights in all VGAp.
Borg: Unlike most races the borg is not as scary to the klingon since he can wage very effective guerrilla warfare. The firecloud can be hunted (particularly death specula). Warp-in can be threatened by glory, cloakers. The borg must fight your bases and you can actually whittle down their bases and planets causing lasting damage with small ships while making a lot of coin. The excellent battle cruiser can alone terrorize large sections of territory, necessitating cubes on lengthy deployment. It's not the borg's favourite fight, he must reach and threaten the core to win.
Crystals: Your fleets are mirror images and this time the crystal does often fight. The immunity to NUK, high beam count of all klingon ships, inability to play any sort of cloak-tow games often forces the crystal into actually making ship trades, the are almost even in the trade. They can take ships, you can take territory. This is not his favourite fight, since it's almost even.
Empire: Very similar to the lizard match up. The difference is the klingon has more late-game staying power, they have a battlecruiser, a force multiplier pop ship. By all rights the klingon should have advantage, the only reasons I don't give advantage to the klingon is because their cloaking is more easily defeated than the lizard (conventional mines and otherwise) and the minor economic and combat bonuses the lizard has add up to an over the entire game advantage.
Cylon: The cylon will generally beat you in ship trades, though he can't use the instrumentality since it's critically weak to the force multiplier pop ship and even the automa can suffer but is sufficiently heavy with enough cargo room to be a pain. Cylon mines are not as significant against klingon beams. The cylon again must lose ships to take your territory, and again you don't need to. Overall this is an even fight.
Rebel:  The klingon's only disadvantageous fight, another guerilla warfare race but with many times the firepower. The rush is a major headache, a pack of them, filled with fighters and supplies means you trade ships to major losses.  This is almost a red level threat, the cruisers and cloakers do outperform the majority of the rebel kitchen sink however the invariability of the rush means advantage rebel.   
Colonial:
This is similar to the cylon, the force multiplier pop ship is efficient to trade with the colonial mid ships and stops the cobol-virgo combo dead in its tracks limiting their positional game. It is not a bad fight, even late game advantageous trades are possible.

Overall: The klingons are the most poorly understood race in VGAp3. They are designed as a guerilla warfare race. Sending ships in a straight line to the enemy is not their way, control, deny, secure territory chipping away with ships, pillaging attrition, breaking stronger fleets with bases, force multipliers and cloak tow games. They must focus on the extreme mobility and flexibility of their excellent battle-cruiser. Few people are actually good at this style of warfare or have the patience. Irrespective, the klingon have only one natural enemy and overall are an above average middle-of-the pack race.

Pirates vs:
Fed: See above.
Gorn: See above.
Romulan: See above.
Klingon: See above.
Borg: The pirate is the only race that threatens the borg throughout the entire game. The borg has no real means to force a ship trade (ignoring tow-chunnel). The asymmetric advantage of rob puts them on a purely defensive footing. If they have means to de-cloak, approaching planets and fireclouds blind is potentially dangerous and ships may trade back and forth. They will stress their only remaining advantage: territory, they are better at taking territory and holding it, facing a wall of borg bases (ex. Taurus) is daunting even given favourable circumstance. This is their worst fight bar none but not your best, there are less dangerous opponents out there for pirates.
Crystals: Two irregular warfare races, highly asymmetric and one basically has all the cards and it's not the pirate. Open space is dangerous for the pirate, planets dangerous for the crystal, but he can always wait, and wait... Neither race is any good at taking territory and so boxed in lines may form. Not as one-sided as klingon, but still massive advantage to the crystal.
Empire: The SSD meets its true master and the empire loses, badly, in all respects. One of the most one-sided conflicts in all VGAp.
Cylon: Mines do threaten your ships, for a time, though late game they are often a joke. The cylon has trepidation making landfall and eventually he must and so the ship losses will always be more on his side. Not a fun opponent, but the pirate has the fleet cards.
Rebel: Asymmetric rob tactics simply prevail in fleet confrontation. Rebels can't use their RGA against pirates, otherwise they risk rob, they often end up fighting bases and the rush is a poor carrier to actually fight bases with. Heavy advantage pirate.
Colonial: Fighting the colonial is much like the robot except the colonial will always have lots of fuel and you essentially can't blow up his mines. The fleet cards are always in your hands, regardless. Advantage pirate.   

Overall: The pirates are arguably the best asymmetric warfare race in VGAp. They have the most overall heavy advantages of any race, accounting for their popularity and rampant success. They also have critical weakness against several races, and so must placate or use diplomacy to survive until a position of strength. The best pirates know precisely the strength of the MBR at taking planets unguarded by bases and the subsequent fear of another race making landfall. They can thus be successful when forced into guerrilla warfare, however it is not their expertise. They must deal directly in the currency of the game, ships or perish by attrition.

Borg vs:
Fed, Gorn, Romulan, Klingon, Pirate: see above 
Tholian: The borg is the counter-race to the tholian. The borg forces the tholian to do what he doesn't want to: actually fight, and fight at a loss every time. The firecloud allows essentially limitless resupply of fuel, armament, additional ships and beam weapons. The crystal has trouble taking bases, the borg will lose a biocide on average only 1 in 4. The one and only threat the crystal must somehow mitigate in the game.
Empire: Unfortunately for the empire the borg are also an asymmetric opponent and can capture the SSD. Little know except to the masters, the SSD can be captured by the annihilation if its shields are removed from a warp chunnel ride. This can rapidly turn whatever advantage the empire thought he had in terms of territory into a nightmare scenario of epic proportions. Advantage borg.
Cylon: Free fighters, large minefields, what could go wrong? Well the borg can asymmetrically reduce the shields and turn cylon fleet into a windfall of PBP. The cylon can't defend his planets with orbiting ships, the golem is less effective at taking invariably massive borg bases compared to the bio. In straight up fleet combat the battleship offers flexibility in guaranteeing a 1-1 trade, although at minor PBP payoff. Advantage borg.
Rebel: The rebel is a guerilla warfare race, their ships are cheap, highly mobile and pack a punch, the rush is exactly wrong in terms of trade value for the borg in that it outperforms its size and limitations. The rebel must judiciously pick his RGA targets or fall prey to the asymmetric advantages of the borg, but it can in fact be done. Forcing the biocide to die against bases, forcing bad trades and constant pressure from beginning to end game. They rebels have overall advantage. 
Colonial: The colonies cannot out-position the borg, and rarely manage beneficial trades due to the danger of asymmetric borg tactics. In straight combat the biocide can eat 3 virgo in one sitting 15% of the time (!) but more likely is going to eat two 50% of the time. Not good odds.
In terms of territory both races are equally good at taking territory. Advantage borg.  

Overall:
There should be little doubt that the borg are the strongest race in VGAp3. Their strength lies in their asymmetric positional gameplay combined with asymmetric warfare potential combined with conventional warfare potential. They have advantage over almost every race, suffering only to guerrilla warfare and critically the pirates must be mitigated with extreme care and special tactics.
Properly managing the borg fleet and economy is part art, part science and a whole lot of experience. Diplomatically they are hated and reviled, however there is no more powerful diplomatic tool of persuasion than a vectored firecloud and cubes. Trust me on this one.

Tholian vs:
Fed, Gorn, Romulan, Klingon, Pirate, Borg: see above.
Empire: Lots of beams, only the gorbie has big fuel tanks and almost never enough fuel because everything empire is so damn heavy. If you have to actually fight their ships, they will rock you, but you essentially never have to fight their ships. As soon as the SSD is captured then they can't withhold territory from you. Overall advantage crystal.
Cylon: Your ships are worse than his ships in every respect, your webmines are better than his mines in every respect. Trench warfare develops rapidly even early game, crystal with cloakers will simply win a war of attrition. Advantage rock.
Rebel: They never have enough beams or fuel and the rebel throw the kitchen sink approach doesn't work. The rush push rarely makes it to destination. They can force you to lose ships to bases and that is their best bet. The rebel style of guerilla warfare is simply not as suited to fighting the crystal as say the klingon, falcon sweeping is over-rated. Heavy advantage crystal.
Colonial: The colonial fleet is stronger than the crystals by leaps and bounds. The thunder is NOT a virgo, and should not be confused with a battlestar despite it's similar array. The thunder loses 75% of the time to a base, the battlestar wins 75% of the time. The virgo has beams, huge tanks and the colonial comes with a never ending fuel supply and cheap ares in the worst of times. They can take territory and seal it up better than the robot, you can seal it, but the taking is rough. An even, often lengthy, unpleasant fight for both concerned.   

Overall: The tholians outperform their meagre ship list through asymmetric webmines which positions them as one of the most feared and powerful races in VGAp3. They have more advantageous fights than even the pirate and only one natural predator. They have the flexibility to pick and choose when to lose ships should they need to fight, and so are almost always at advantage. Their main weakness is acquiring heavily defended territory and if left to their own ship list much like the pirate, they wilt and die.   

Empire vs:
Fed, Gorn, Romulan, Klingon, Pirate, Borg, Tholian: see above
Cylon: The cylon instrumentality assures him that he wins ship trades. It's cheap enough to damage or break any front ship in your arsenal at minimal PBP. The path forward is forcing
the SSD against cylon bases, getting the left side with the gorbie, never particularly easy but the territorial acquisition edge balances out the bad ship trades. It's an even fight overall.
Rebel: The rebel "junk" stuck together with chewing gum and tape fleet fights to even your big and heavy fleet at half the cost. Your territory gaining advantage is outweighed heavily by theirs. Advantage rebel.
Colonial: The colonial has everything you need, fuel, mobility, armament, minefield supremacy.
The deathstar does eat colonial fleet for breakfast, much akin to the biocide. Overall it is easier to engineer beneficial trades against the colonial. His battlestar will break against your planets, forcing the SSD advantage is actually a good option. In abstraction this is not a-priori a bad fight, the problem is as typical reaching the battlefield as the colonial picks and chooses when it happens. The advantage overall is slight, but I give it to the colonial, for their positional game. 

Overall:
The empire is without a doubt the worst race in VGAp3. This has been borne out in Nu statistics and on every other server. There is no question that the combination of limited economic benefit (probe), heavy expensive ships with small fuel tanks and a trump card SSD that more often than not gets turned against its master does not make for a win. The empire can win at expert level though. As designed they are the ultimate manipulators, diplomatically they must pull the strings in the cluster to first eliminate their major threats and carefully, slowly expand using the trump-card "I have the biggest ship" "I can SSD your bases" over, and over, and over... It's not for everyone, clearly. They have no advantage against anyone, at all until 150+ turns into the game. Once everyone has strong 10-10-10-10 bases all over the place, mines covering every ly, then, and only then, do you fear the empire, if it's still alive and healthy.  

Cylon vs:
Fed, Gorn, Romulan, Klingon, Pirate, Borg, Tholian, Empire: see above
Rebel: Ship to ship, the trades are often in the cylon favor. Light rebel ship combos don't work well and so it's forcibly all rush and the cylon can mix and match instrumentality/automa/golem to maximize benefit however the rebel often gets left side due to RGA threat and so the trades may go to the rebel. However when it comes to territory, the rebel simply never loses a ship to your bases. Advantage rebel.
Colonial: Ship to ship again often trades are in the cylon favor. Cylon necessarily must restrict use of the easily damaged instrumentality, because the minehits will happen and it's you that's going to be getting hit this time around. Cylon can engineer marginally beneficial trades. When it comes to bases however, the golem loses a third of the time to a base, the virgo 1/4 of the time. It adds up. This is a hard fight, any which way, the colonial must stress his positional advantage. Overall advantage colonial.

Overall: The cylons are a very popular race in VGAp3 and we have a large group of dedicated cylon players at Nu. The cylons are the brute force raw power race of the game. Big ships, big minefields, little subtlety. The low subtlety approach works extremely well against novice opponents but hardened players will cause extensive damage to the cylon fleet and force the cylon into ugly ship-for-base trades. The cylon must carefully pick what ships and what order to at all times maximize benefit and minimize costly loss. The golem with it's shields dented down to 60% loses 90% of the time to a base. The automa flat loses 75% against bases. The problem of the cylon is always bases.

Rebel vs:
Fed, Gorn, Romulan, Klingon, Pirate, Borg, Tholian, Empire, Cylon: see above
Colonial: The rebel fleet is in general stronger than the colonial fleet. The rush does eat 2 virgo, though rarely 15% of the time but it's non-negligible. It can be an even fleet battle with proper colonial positioning and use of minefield supremacy. In terms of capturing territory, advantage rebel. Advantage rebel overall.

Overall: The rebels are a guerrilla warfare race with a big punch. They are more difficult to play than many of the other carrier races as a result of their unique ship list and economy strongly dependant on the falcon which takes considerable fuel management. They have more good encounters than bad, however their weaknesses are to some of the more powerful races in the game and so they often fall just short of true glory, placing them in the middle of the pack in terms of game standing.

Colonies vs: see above!

Overall: The colonies are an excellent race in VGAp3 having more beneficial encounters than bad ones. Nu statistics indicate the colonial pound for pound blow the tar out more ships than any other race. They are the 2nd best positional race and when playing a strong positional game it can be like fighting a crystal with regular minefields instead of webs and a much bigger bite - they choose when and where to fight, you don't get much say in the matter. Absolutely no one is comfortable with a pack of battlestars waltzing around their space like they own it. They are the strongest of the free-fighter races and one of the overall strongest races in the game.
2395 days, 14 hours, 32 minutes ago
View halion's profile
halion
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

Awesome Thread. Great work Space and all contributors.

DM thanks for the handy guide to how i should proceed with the Emperor match and the cheerleading! we'll see if i can maintain things... quite a few moving parts at the moment so i expect a rollercoaster ride ;)

Star I would need to disagree with your assessment of Fed Eco.

While we may lack minerals we also have the refit ability and swim in cash.

Why bother to outfit a full spec Nova with TW, big beams and Mk7 or 8. when i can build the 3 hulls in a row and refit later on after ship limit...

Most expereinced Fed players should be focusing on base construction and producing hulls for later refit. Of course a healthy balance of hulls vs 'real' warships is important, the balance of which will depend on your neighbours and how rich your HW cluster is in minerals.

For me my main concern is looking to how i can maintain a steady flow of minerals beyond ship limit to quickly refit and get ships into action, that usually means identifying a good Bovi ASAP or having a good factory production base on all plaents and a merlin or 2 before ship limit.

For any Sagitarius commanders reading this I can assure you I am not sitting with an entire fleet of Hulls and have plenty of battle ready ships in case you were getting ideas while reading this ;)

Not to go off topic but the debate about race eco levels has always annoyed me, It is the same with the comment about Empire Eco, I never really had a problem with it. For me Eco is much more about the individual commanders skills in logistics and planning (with a healthy dose of planet attribute luck) rather than inherent race eco problems..  obvious exceptions to this would be lizards and mid/end game borg but for the rest I reallly dont see a massive disadvantge if they are played properly... 

My evidence for this are my later(once i worked out how to play) normal games in EE and FED and especially the position i reached in ship/base production in both Scorpio and Sagitarius showing EE and FED can comperte for production even in games where the ship limit hits early 20's.

ok enough of that.. back on topic, sorry :)

2395 days, 10 hours, 51 minutes ago
View dragondejhi's profile
dragondejhi
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
I know I'm late but figured I will chime in speaking for the Lizards only. Understand that this in not with allies, everything changes then. But that's not what you are looking for.

Salivate to be next too:
1) Pirates.  They are easy pickings.  With the Loki and GA, they fall quickly. You can out produce them in mines so their MCBR's go Boom and protect your areas.  

2) Evil Empire.  Again, not much they can do, especially at the beginning of the game. And since they have only one low cargo frigate, your mines are double effective. Downside is that when they build SB's, you have to assume they are full and your T-Rex rush will not work by itself. However a T/Mandon combo works on any SB and they are cheap. Still, tow ships away to fight where you want too.  

3) Borg.  Now this is tricky. The Borg is the Gorns worst enemy late in the game. Your GA's are useless then and a pack of Biocides... well, need I say more if you have a pack of small ships.  However, if I am next to the Borg or they are two away, I drop everything and go for them everytime. They have no good ships to start with and if you hunt out their FCC's, WHICH YOU SHOULD, they are then defenseless.  Your GA's work good as they are building up still and you can destroy their planets easily.  Bad part is if they get established, then there is not much you can do. Never go on the defense against a Borg, or you will lose. Another bad side is that even without a SB, their planets are tough. Your LCC's cannot take them if they have 5-10 mil pop and are defed up. A good borg will build an endless pack of FCC's.  Figure out what you want, then triple it.  If you have not set up to destroy them early in the game or have a carrier race to help you mid-late game, seek them out and ally with them ;-)  Unless of course you have a ga-zillion T-rexes and a ga-zillion torps. A lizard wins 9 times out of 10 in the early game.  The opposite is true in the late game if the Borg is already in the winning slot or deeply established. 

- Birds.  They are fun to kill.... if you can find them.  But they have bigger ships then you and a patient Bird always makes you nervous.  Was fighting my brother in a Star Warriors game now and it was a slug-fest for 50+ turns. Plan on a game of economic attrition for this race.  Not as glamorous.   Fascists are the same.  Both I rarely go after either unless provoked. And both can hurt you as well.  It's about even depending on the skill of the player.  

- Feds.  They are fun to kill. Lizards are immune to their Loki. You can match them on money and mine a lot more then them so you can out produce them at first with higher quality ships.  It's kind of a blah-blah race to go after and you can use them for retrofit later on if you are friendly, but then again, they don't offer much beyond that. But that is big. I would say.... better to kill. They were my first race kill when I joined nu. But if you go after them, wolf-pack up and go hard and fast. 

Robots:  They don't scare me much.  Unless they are ganged up with other races, you can match them torp for torp.  They have low beam ships to sweep you, so you make them use torps alot.  But it's a slow slog advancing on established robots because even their smaller ships require you to double up on your big ships. BUT, their ships are more expensive and you get more PBP's, so I say... go after the Bots if no one else is available 

Colonies and Rebels:  I will admit, I have never gone after them specifically, except team games which doesn't count.  They have such useful ships to the lizards, and you them, that I never find myself at war with them.  So, I can't speak truthfully about them.

ENEMY:
Crystals.....  I war with them almost every game. Sheesh.  They are the bane of the Lizards. I have beat them before, but it is NEVER easy.  They have always been my number one enemy as a lizard. You can duke it out and you can destroy their ships, but there is nothing ever easy when going against the Crystals.  You must ALWAYS think 5-7 turns in advance when going against them for every ship. That makes LONG hours.  Even when advancing, you must always be on the defensive.  
Ship Builds:  LCC, LCC, LCC.  LDSF's, lots of them, follow up with reptiles and later on with Saurians because they are better on fuel but can't take the hits or fight as well.  NEVER forget the neut ship because Lizards suck up fuel later in the game even though they only have 2 engine ships.  And the T-Rex is cheap and with 10 beams are good at both sweeping mines and taking planets or any first hit.  Build lots of them as well because you go through them fast ;-) Lizards underestimate the need for Mandonzillas. Sure they are not a great carrier like the other races, but they are cheap to build, transport fighters to the front and are a must for taking SB's as a second wave or with a task force going against carriers.  Lastly, Eros are an easy common ship to build to boost your economy, some at first, then many when recycling ships later on. Then ANY ship is good for the Lizards because of hissing. Build, build, build.  Nothing like getting 5000 out of a several planets by turn 10 if you find good ones.   

That's just me from the peanut gallery.  Just remember, the Lizards are a weak race with tiny little ships, so be scared of everyone because any race above can destroy you as well if they set their mind to it.  

-DD-
2394 days, 18 hours, 0 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Done! I've been wanting to write that for some time and now ECV asked me to so there it is.

I agree Halion, economy is a nebulous quantity that some people will agree with one definition and others will not. It is not impossible for ANY race to A- make MC and minerals B- produce good ships and stock bases full of fighters or make minefields. It may require more planning, and more time, but all races can do this.
In my race matrix, I analyze things according to the variables I see as truly important, the ship trades and the acquisition of territory. That the robot drops 4x mines is not that relevant. Experienced players do not ram light ships into minefields. In all of Taurus 1 and only 1 firecloud ever died to a minefield. It's not how the currency of planets is traded.

DD you're not part of the peanut gallery, you're a former supreme commander and your opinion is very valid.
2394 days, 12 hours, 55 minutes ago
View nitemare's profile
nitemare
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Very nice threat!!

Uhm! I have to disagree with the ratting you give to the tholians economy Star. I can ensure that they have a much better economy than the romulans!! Tholians economy is only dependant of molybdenum since they can produce money in any temp planet while other races are money and mineral dependant (Like the romulans or the ee for example!!!)  and yes their ships are expensive in mol but they just need a couple of crystal&thunder combos in the early stage of the game to destroy the potencial big sweepers. And there is too that an emerald with lasers and 1 mk7 tube is as dangerous as a fully equiped emerald with disruptors and mk7 so you can always produce useful cheap ships that will be useful in all the game stages. 

 In fact they have economical problems if attacked before the ship limit since they have to diverge mats and money for expensive torp production in order to be able to counter any attack. This would halt their ship production leaving them in disadvantage at the mid-end game. If you think about it probably you don't really need to attack them, just simulate you are going to attack him. Luckily most players get a headache just for thinking in attacking the Tholians and they will not be willing to risk his bad equipped ships in that gambling.

Regards,

 Nite
2394 days, 6 hours, 59 minutes ago
View vepr's profile
vepr
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
In my opition for the pirates

Toughest Enemies:
Crystals,
Fashists,
then lizards,
then Feds
then Birds
then Robots

Prime Targets:
Empire (LOVE picking on empire), once you get your hands on an SSD, its all over for them
Colonies: slightly more difficult than rebels since they tend to not run out of fuel
Rebels
Borg

The reason I put robots lower than most is that they have huge ships that need lots of fuel.  even though their minefields are dangerous, 4 - 5 meteors with good beams constantly sweeping outside of 81ly range of one of their planets can make the fields expensive to maintain, even at 4x mine laying rate.  And meteors are cheap to build, so even if you lose one or two to mines, who cares, your economy easily supports that.  Any ships the robot sends at you will very likely not be completely full of fuel since they are so heavy.  and once you capture any of their carriers, you have a huge tank with which to rob. 

In one of my games, I literally bankrupted the robot that had huge fields that I was constantly sweeping with about 12 meteors with heavy phasers. after about 15 - 20 turns of that he simply ran out of minerals to maintain them and was overrun. As soon as he could no longer maintain his fields and I broke through he ran. 

Crystals are challenging, but not too bad.  Just have to be careful.  just tow some cloaked ships with other ships. leave just enough fuel on the lead ship to reach its destination, about 10ly or so, and enough supplies to repair when it hits a web.  Then if crystal intercepts you, he gets robbed since he will not fight a ship that is out of fuel and the cloaker is there to resupply the first ship to allow it to rob.  When I am fighting the crystals, all ships that I send at them will have the best beams I can buy and no torpedoes (for the most part), since I can't allow him to get a cloaked minelayer.  you can stall a crystal advance that way pretty easily.  Then, just outrun his economy with expansion elsewhere.   Another thing you can do is simply build a merlin with heavy phasers and use that to sweep.  Makes short work of any minefields (that goes for robots too).

Fashists are a bitch since glories are so cheap.  they can be everywhere. 

Lokis are annoying, but there are typically not THAT many of them.  The key is not to fight feds or lizards until after the ship limit hits so that hopefully, he will not know you are there and prepare by building lots of lokis.

Also, as pirates, you should always have an ally that can supply you with the fighting ships you lack. 

Best ones to ally with in my opinion are the crystals and the robots.  A pirate that can move unhindered through enemy space because of friendly minefield support is very difficult to defeat.  Empire can offer you SSDs, but why bother, you will have one for free soon enough if you go up against them. 
2394 days, 6 hours, 6 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Vepr, I'm surprised how low you rate the Loki races. You explain it later but only under certain circumstances. An early hostile Lizard is at least as dangerous for the Pirate than an early hostile Crystal or Klingon, isn't it? Also, if I would be Lizard/Fed and have to go to war with he Pirate after the ship limit I'd spend my next 30 PBP for Lokis. This won't take so long. A minimum of 5 Lokis I'd have built anyway before the ship limit.

You're the expert of course!
2394 days, 5 hours, 5 minutes ago
View vepr's profile
vepr
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
Emork, you are absolutely right, lokis could be a nightmare.  but you you say they are tougher for the pirate than webs or glories.  i also agree with your strategy of using pbps to pump out lokis.  the one thing that tends to go in my favor is usually, people dont know how to properly use lokis and i can cloak intercept and destroy them.  in expert hands of course they are a major problem.  essentially, the pirate is a coin flip race.  they fight really poorly against fashist, crystals, fed, and lizards, and pretty well against carrier races.   its a nice equalizer against the supremacy of the fighter races.

2394 days, 4 hours, 48 minutes ago
View coldblooded's profile
coldblooded
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply
I'd personally as Empire just never build anything worth while if my neighbor was Pirates :), just nothing but SSFs with no beams, just to be annoying! Unless my other neighbor was a decent pirate counter willing to help :p
2394 days, 4 hours, 2 minutes ago
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star72066
RE: Paper, Rock, Scissor Race GuideWrite Reply

Stop your complaining Federation and Tholian commanders - There are lots of races with easier economics and if those two races economics are so above average, why are they always on the bottom of the ship and base totals when the limit hits. ;PP

In all honesty and seriousness, I'll defer to the professional Feds and Tholians - I don't claim to be expert on either race, except how to destroy them with the Lizards! HAH! 

(Halion and Nitemare are both supreme commanders of the Feds and Tholians respectively - it is wise to defer)

Edited to add: I still believe the Fed mining rate should be put at 100%. What makes them any less of a mining race than the Colonies or Rebels. (Both Humanoids and on the run as lore presents them. How can they have better mining equipment than the Federation of Planets.) Halion is off to a glorious start with the Feds in Sagi, and all it will amount to is a more glorious death. ;-D