TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...

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1566 days, 8 hours, 43 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
TENACITY CHANGES:

We are in the process of updating the tenacity system. This project will take some time to complete, but I know this is causing a lot of questions, so I want to address it now. I will make a formal News announcement once all the changes are finished.

What you are seeing now:

Under the hood, tenacity has already changed (as many of you have noticed), and I just put in a couple more fixes. These changes will remain, so let me explain how things work now.

- There are no separate components used to calculate tenacity. It is a single number. Tenacity hits for drops and resigns, and bonuses for sector rescue effect this value directly.

- The "Daily Grind" is gone completely. There is no bonus for completing turns early, and no penalty for missing turns or using holiday mode.

- Tenacity is generally capped at 100%. If your tenacity is currently above 100%, consider yourself lucky for now and keep reading.

- There is now a time-based change. Every day if your tenacity is less then 100%, you get a small increase (0.2%). Conversely, for those with tenacity above 100%, you get a similar decrease.

- The "Sector Rescue" bonus has changed. You now get a 10% boost to tenacity if you join a game as a replacement and finish the game with a higher rank than when you joined. You must have been in the game for 20 turns to receive the bonus. You are allowed to exceed the 100% max for this.

- Tenacity Hits for dropping or resigning have changed. You can now lose up to 25% for quitting. The penalty is figured as the greater of:
1. the numbers of turns before 25
2. the number of planets over 10
Essentially, the penalty is bigger for early quits or quitting with a large empire. Again, the penalty is capped at 25%.

- There is no Tenacity Hit for being killed, either by Fight or Fail, or due to total elimination, and also no penalty for leaving a game you joined as a replacement.

What is coming soon, to complete this project:

- We will begin tracking all the changes to your tenacity. This data currently does not exist.

- Tracking the changes will allow us to add a UI component to the profile pages where you can see all the changes and the reasons, so you can see the effects of your actions. We might even add a chart that shows your tenacity change over time.

Hopefully this addresses some of your concerns and explains the changes you've been seeing.
1566 days, 8 hours, 34 minutes ago
View tom graves's profile
tom graves
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
BB,

Does tenacity now include your entire history or remains the last 10 games?

Tom
1566 days, 7 hours, 58 minutes ago
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singularity
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
So if you get a sector rescue and your tenacity of 110, the bonus is lost completely in 50 days?
1566 days, 7 hours, 57 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
If you could send the details to either Gnerphk or myself, we can prepare a new Tenacity page to be ready for display when the changes are officially released. We will, of course, verify with you that what we documented is what you actually meant.
1566 days, 7 hours, 31 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Good to know. Frankly, I dislike several of the proposed changes; the metric seems almost meaningless now except as a way to punish players who have RL problems -- and I don't think we want that. Despite-- no, in large part BECAUSE of the nature of complaints I've read, I view the original (revised) metric as highly effective, and the necessary modifications due to FoF as an essential addition. Daily Grind is something that I particularly believe we'll miss, and the only two positive aspects that I see here are that (1) players have a miniscule bonus for replacing someone and (2) players who miss turns are still penalized.

However, now that I've stated my disagreement, I do want to mention that I highly approve of the increase in transparency.

(And yes, I'm prepared to justify my statements for the curious.)
1566 days, 6 hours, 40 minutes ago
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seron dar
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
So a new player will need to be a member of the site for 500 days to get a 100% Tenacity not counting sector rescue ?
1566 days, 6 hours, 37 minutes ago
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ghostwriter
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Big+Beefer: The "Sector Rescue" bonus has changed. You now get a 10% boost to tenacity if you join a game as a replacement and finish the game with a higher rank than when you joined. You must have been in the game for 20 turns to receive the bonus. You are allowed to exceed the 100% max for this.

this is a major change to the "Sector Rescue" bonus. before, it was maintain the "beginning" rank or improve the rank. i was just looking at a Fed position that was described as "very good" rank. but, that game has NO chance for the Fed to improve his/her rank, even if the "enemy" Lizards were to agree to an alliance.

considering that Tenacity over 100 loses 0.2 percent per day, the gain from joining a replacement position seems to be very small, even non-existent. the players who would gain from the bonus are the players who are under 100 Tenacity, which if i understand your new "rules" correctly, will be each and every player. well, perhaps a few players at the top of the "food chain" will stay at 100...

also, i have a concern regarding lowering the Tenacity upper limit. in essence, that change reduces the campaign bonus earned per turn of each game, which is a bummer. is this intended, or an unintended consequence?

@Big+Beefer: There is now a time-based change. Every day if your tenacity is less then 100%, you get a small increase (0.2%). Conversely, for those with tenacity above 100%, you get a similar decrease.

as similar can include 0.1%, as well as other close numbers, do you wish to be specific on this issue, or not? basically, similar is not the same as "same", even if some readers have assumed such...

rather than repeating what the other posters have asked, i will just add a "like" their post to signify that i support their concerns.

GhostWriter
1566 days, 6 hours, 31 minutes ago
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seron dar
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
My concern is, Since the current documentation says that the Tenacity Score is a multiplier for campaign resources. New accounts will be punished for well over a Year having never dropped a game.

I can understand not wanting new players in certain games but the multiplier for resources really needs to be changed. It will take me years to get the klingon toys for campaigns.

I am willing to bet that many players will not want to grind for years in games just to get the recloaking deth specula.
1566 days, 6 hours, 27 minutes ago
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furey
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Don't you just start at 100%?
1566 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes ago
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sepiola
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Why no daily grind? Missing turns is important info to know just as quitting games is.
1566 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Oho! I'd missed that aspect -- missing turns won't be counted.

Well, then -- I withdraw my nominal approval. I see no reason for this metric to continue to exist as it stands.
1566 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes ago
View smn's profile
smn
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Daily grind being gone is the most awesome news ever!

I'm a bit unsure of the other stuff though. There is the entirely legit use case for getting a temporary replacement for games or controlled handover of them. I hope the future sees a solution for this.

For sector rescue, does rank mean finishing position or number of planets at the end? I'm still kind of sad for not getting the rescue bonus for Die Hard 1 :)
1566 days, 5 hours, 31 minutes ago
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olegboleg
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
my 2 cents:

prolog (where i come from):
i have not paid allot of attention to tenacity, yet. While i do understand the longing for a system that prevents or disencourages dropouts/resigns and at the same time rewards players who "stuck it out till the end" or jumped in to replace a player, i dont think there is a way to put this in numbers.

Dont get me wrong: I like numbers. I like math. I like to put things in numbers to measure their worthyness. Hell i spend hours trying to find that one weapon in diablo that would get my stats up a bit more.


main part (thesis | Planets is (to) complex):
Sometimes you need to resign/dropout for very valid real life reasons (car accident for example)

Sometimes a replacement a player will take out the fun for many players, by ignoring previous agreements (a very safe border becomes hostile in a matter of one turn or your ally turns on you)

Sometimes replacing a player and only managing to survive the game is a huge acomplishment.

or whatabout the player that needs to resign from a game, but has found a replacement palyer to take over. Same penalty for that as for someone who just drops out?

i could go on, but i think you catch my drift. I dont think its possible to take all that and more into affect and come up with a simple calculation. I think, there will allways be loopholes to avoid or paly the system or cases that will be seen as "unfair" (just like with real life laws).


conclusion (mine at least):
we wont be able to make a perfect system that covers all the angles and reflects a players (turn wise) reliablility. That doesnt mean we should try to make a good system. I would simply suggest a) not to care TO much about it and b) dont demand perfection but accept a solid solution.


epilog:
that said, here are some ideas (brainstorming here):

dropoutrate (of how many games did the player drop out or whats his percentage of that)
rating (let the players of a game that ended be allowed to rate the participants on their conduct and tenacity anonymiosly)
stats page (similar idea to the dropout rate, but going further: how many games, avarage ending position, how actively chatting, how many replacement games,..)
demerit (basicly the opposite of achievment)



cheerio
olegboleg

p.s. like @gnerphk, i am well prepared to explain/defend my position
1566 days, 5 hours, 28 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Seron Dar - There was an issue where new players were getting 0% tenacity. That should be fixed now and I will be updating the effected players records today. That will put you back at 100% where you belong.
1566 days, 5 hours, 21 minutes ago
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olegboleg
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I would like to add, that this is a similar problem that mathematicians have had for ages: how to measure the average

Sure you can simply add all the values and divide it though the number of values. But this would be like: One foot in boiling water, one foot in the ice so in average I am well temperatured.
You could add the average/standard deviation, but this does not cover (or reflect well) any situation with few very but far deviating values.
You could sue the Median, but that is really just not working in so many situations, that I am unwilling to put them all up here.

Now what I like to do in such cases is put all stats up: Number of Values, the arithmetic average with the average deviation, the Median and some more.
With more data, you can get a clearer picture of the situation. 
1566 days, 5 hours, 0 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
New thread title -- Tenacity score becomes yet another skill-based score.

> The "Sector Rescue" bonus has changed. You now get a 10% boost to tenacity if you join a game as a replacement and finish the game with a higher rank than when you joined. You must have been in the game for 20 turns to receive the bonus. You are allowed to exceed the 100% max for this.

So, you're (and please note that when I say "you", I mean the site management) changing the Tenacity score to increase the amount skill required to see high Tenacity scores. That's NOT what this site needs. There are already several scores that are based on skill. We don't need another skill-based score. We need the Tenacity score to better reflect a player's actual tenacity (see the dictionary definition).

I expect that the long-term effect of this will be that there will be fewer players taking over vacated positions in ongoing games, as they'll usually be able to get more out of starting a new game. @Ghostwriter went into some of the reasons.

> The "Daily Grind" is gone completely. There is no bonus for completing turns early, and no penalty for missing turns or using holiday mode.

And you're removing one of the better indicators of a player's actual tenacity (again, please see the dictionary definition). I expect this is in response to player complaints about the early turn bonus, and Joshua wanting to keep the Tenacity score somewhat balanced. The easiest way to do this is to remove the Daily Grind completely. I don't believe it's the best way, and apparently I'm not alone in that belief.

> There is now a time-based change. Every day if your tenacity is less than 100%, you get a small increase (0.2%). Conversely, for those with tenacity above 100%, you get a similar decrease.

It's good to simplify the computation. I expect that the old method was eating up a lot of IOPS and CPU time. While I can't say that I agree with the method, I expect that it will work.

> Tenacity Hits for dropping or resigning have changed. You can now lose up to 25% for quitting. The penalty is figured as the greater of:
> 1. the numbers of turns before 25
> 2. the number of planets over 10
> Essentially, the penalty is bigger for early quits or quitting with a large empire. Again, the penalty is capped at 25%.

That's a good blend of the two suggestions in http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/6099531-improve-the-tenacity-concept-by-allowing-graceful

> There is no Tenacity Hit for being killed, either by Fight or Fail, or due to total elimination

This resolves the issue where FoF received no penalty, but elimination did. Good change.

> no penalty for leaving a game you joined as a replacement.

This is the way it was, but I believe the site will be better served if the player becomes eligible for a resignation penalty after 20 turns. That would balance the 20 turns required to get the Sector Rescue bonus.

--------------------------

There was no mention of two items that are important.

1. What happens to players who are dropped for missing three consecutive turns? This is not the same as a resignation, and, IMHO, should be treated more severely, and have no exemptions. It takes under a minute to resign from a game.

2. There used to be an exclusion for resignation from Melee games. Does this still exist?
1566 days, 4 hours, 58 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
But what is this present Tenacity intended to measure?

(1) If you don't quit but instead arrange for someone else to take all of your planets and ships, you get no penalty.
(2) If you set Vacation and check in every six turns or so, you get no penalty.
(3) If you take over for a player and survive intact, you get no bonus.
(4) If you take over for a player and improve their position, you get a miniscule bonus that goes away over a short time.
(5) If you resign but arrange a skilled replacement, you get penalized.
(6) If you miss three turns and are dropped... what happens? At present, my understanding is that there's no penalty.

Look, I'm a tenacious player; I'm tenacious as all hell. I've been declared dead once in an early MvM game; apart from that, I've never resigned, never been annihilated, and almost never missed a turn. If someone wants my planets, he's going to have to pay with half his fleet.

What would this behavior gain me under the system as described? Nothing. Not a single damn thing.

As such, I'd propose the most important change to this metric: a different name. 'Cause I've got tenacity covered, thanks.
1566 days, 4 hours, 50 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
The great thing I hope to stick is timely information about things going on and further plans. The tenacity changes I have to grok first.

One big flaw I see. Correct me if I am wrong, please. The most harmful thing to an intersting and undecided game is not a dropper. It is a non active player of relevant size on eternal holiday mode. That's more annoying than a dropper because holiday mode prevents that a replacement player steps in and brings back fun and balance to the game.
If I understand BB's message right then a dropper could avoid a tenacity penalty by setting holiday mode and do nothing until he dies to FoF or total elimination. If this becomes the standard behaviour instead of dropping it would be horrible.

A partly solution would be to limit holiday mode to 2 weeks at maximum and only 2 times in a game. An even better solution would be to limit holiday even more or eliminate it completely and provide an official mechanism for searching and finding temporary replacements as SMN suggested. Reward those temporary replacements somehow.
1566 days, 4 hours, 27 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> The most harmful thing to an intersting and undecided game is not a dropper. It is a non active player of relevant size on eternal holiday mode.

That is VERY harmful to the game. There used to be a Tenacity penalty for use of Holiday Mode, but with the removal of the Daily Grind, it's gone. Your partial solution of limiting Holiday Mode would improve this, but returning the Daily Grind would probably be the best solution.

A similarly harmful player is one who enters the game and immediately finishes their turn. This type of player would require some coding to resolve. Perhaps Moderated (verified by a human before any action is taken) introduction to the Tim Continuum would be a good solution.
1566 days, 3 hours, 56 minutes ago
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olegboleg
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@gnerphk
this sounded almost like an outburst. i have never heard that from you before. :]

but i do agree with your general statement, mainly because i'd like to think of myself as tenacious and that's basically what i thought, too.


@whisperer
As one of the Quotes form the website states. This kind of Game (Play by Email style) is the only game i can put in my calendar. I am working full time, i have two small kids and i am renovating a house. And sometimes, i make my turns in the last hours, but i do them, and thoroughly.

While i agree, that making your turns early would indicate a tenacious player, you gave the best "anti-example" yourself. someone who just pops in and presses "end turn". Now with this behavior someone could ruin a game and increase their tenacity at the same time. right?




a few more brainstorming ideas:
tenacity bonus for ending a game (maybe increase the score for amount of turns played)

implement a "replacement buddy" (similar to the shadow email address from robomaster, i am sure many will remember that). this guy can enabled by the main palyer to take over (for example if you are away for a few days/weeks).

implement a "replacement player" system. if you keep palying until you find a replacement player, which takes over seamlessly you get no penalty (something is needed to keep people form just giving a game to a dummy to drop out - maybe replacement players can only be players with a tenacity of over X and at least 1 finsihed game)



cheerio
olegboleg
(going to bed now)


1566 days, 3 hours, 35 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> While i agree, that making your turns early would indicate a tenacious player, you gave the best "anti-example" yourself. someone who just pops in and presses "end turn". Now with this behavior someone could ruin a game and increase their tenacity at the same time. right?

Correct. I also offered a possible solution. There are many other ways to solve this issue, but all require some coding.

It should be noted that it's not possible to create a scoring system for a game of this complexity that can't be "gamed".

> implement a "replacement player" system. if you keep palying until you find a replacement player, which takes over seamlessly you get no penalty

http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/2304312-advanced-resigning
1566 days, 3 hours, 28 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Olegboleg - It is an outburst, or perhaps "rant" would be more appropriate. I'm displeased whenever people attempt to ruin a perfectly useful word by attempting to make it mean something that it doesn't.

Examples:
"Literally", when used to describe something that is clearly figurative, is only acceptable when deliberately employing hyperbole. Flagrant ignorant misuse drives me (figuratively) insane.

"i.e." vs. "e.g." -- The Latin phrase "id est" means "that is"; ergo i.e. is a way of saying "in other words". Conversely, "exempli gratia" means "for example", so e.g. is used before giving specific examples in support of a statement.

"Gentleman", at one point, referred to a class of person who did not work for his living, subsisting instead off the proceeds of rent or inheritance, or occasionally as a professional houseguest. It was sometimes employed as a description for a person who exemplified the manners expected of a true gentleman. This common misusage soon took the place of the original definition -- as though the language actually needed more meaningless compliments.

"Tenacity" is a virtue describing a person's unwillingness to give up, surrender, or let go of a problem, issue, or position; i.e., I am a tenacious opponent of the new metric. It is here being used to identify an individual's willingness to take the appropriate "CYA" steps before surrendering, and I would suggest that the proper term for this new metric should be "Bureaucrat Rating", or (if brevity is unimportant) "Ability To Be Employed By The IRS Or Inland Revenue".

Incidentally, there's another one: IRS. It stands for "Internal Revenue Service". However, it only collects funds externally, generates no actual income of its own, and doesn't serve its customers. That makes it three overt lies for the price of one. The same can also be said for the abbreviation "MRE".
1566 days, 2 hours, 58 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Big+Beefer: Excellent improvement.

I agree completing Turns early shouldn't be rewarded... the second you are co-operating with someone you are not going to be ending Turns early due to communication needs.

I second creating a replacement player request system, player should be able to "sell" his position and avoid punishment... if no one wants the position (give replacement players more info to decide if they want into the game), then they deserve the tenacity hit.


All this "real life" scenarios everyone is concerned about are the minority of dropped positions... and these people usually find a replacement.
1566 days, 2 hours, 35 minutes ago
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ra
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Not previously mentioned is one of my primary concerns:

I would like the tenacity at a minimum to allow one to set up a barrier to entry for new players to join the new game to a tenacity of more than a new account player would receive for their initial tenacity.

e.g. :) In the previous system, if one opened a new account and started with a tenacity of 100, my game could require a minimum of 101.

Why would I want to do that? To exclude bot account players from entering and ruining my game before it even gets going. The only other way for me to do this would be to include only players I know, or research each player who wants to join to insure they are a "real person"...Ra
1566 days, 2 hours, 28 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Gnerphk: The IRS is named so because it enforces the Internal Revenue Code... not because it was ever envisioned to be a permanent system of national tax collection. Otherwise it would have been named the USRS. Was supposed to be temporary measure to fund racist Abraham Lincoln's War of Northern Aggression.

Canada only has income tax because of WW1, and also was supposed to be temporary.

I've always called it 'venting'... over 'rant'.
1566 days, 2 hours, 26 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
So let me make some clarifications on a few questions above:

- We no longer look at historical data at all. The only reasons your tenacity will change from here on out is for a drop, resign, rescue bonus (given at end of game), or the daily adjustments.

- The daily decrease for those over 100% is also 0.2%

- A drop from missing 3 turns gets the same penalty as a resignation

- Melee and Mentor games are still excluded

- Missed turns are still recorded and visible on a player's profile. They just don't effect your tenacity.

- There is a holiday mode limit of 3 weeks.

- I will be looking into some replacement request options in the future.

This is a system that will likely never please everybody. Even in the few comments above, you see people asking for completely contradictory things. We've gone with the design we think is best overall for the site. You play your games and don't quit, you get 100%. You quit, you're penalized a little. You do well as a replacement, you get a little bonus.
1566 days, 1 hours, 54 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Hrm. OK; the holiday limit and penalty for a drop are improvements over what I'd interpreted this to mean. Add replacement requests and we may have a working system. I take it Beginner games are also excluded?

Also, since we've got you buttonholed here and you did bring it up: Is that a per-year limit for Holiday, or per six months, or per game, or what?

I'm still disgruntled about the loss of Daily Grind, but... well, what can one do? I'll tentatively withdraw my unfavorable comparison of the metric to the IRS pending replacements.
1566 days, 1 hours, 53 minutes ago
View azzazzello's profile
azzazzello
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I see no reason why missed turns or even holiday mode should NOT effect tenacity especially considering there is a daily adjustment of +/- .2% that pulls you to 100%.

Why not have 1% tenacity hit for missed turn and .5% for Holiday mode? Missed turn penalty would be gone in 5days. Holiday mode turn penalty would be gone in 2.5 days.

Seem fair to me.

1566 days, 1 hours, 39 minutes ago
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rhunter
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I love the change that if you're eliminated completely on turn 7000, you take no tenacity hit :)
(I've never missed a turn, even tho my numbers show 4 missed turns, so the prospect of getting a tenacity hit for being uber tenacious always bugged me)
The fact that I've never missed a turn, yet show 4 missed turns on my record brings me to my request: Can we get it so that a missed turn in a private game does not show up as a missed turn on our record? (not sure if this is linked to tenacity in any way) 3 of my 4 "missed turns" were in private practice games I was running against 10 AI opponents (the 4th was on a day of Nu "glitches" where numerous people reported here that they were dinged as missed a turn even tho they didn't)

1566 days, 1 hours, 24 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Rhunter: I hear you... I was going for 0 missed Turns until I started getting them even though I completed on time. Then I racked up tons trying to narrow down how late you can submit your Turn before Host run that was causing false missed-turns.

Then I genuinely fell asleep playing a few Turns... and now I care not what it says.

(Taking a look at my own Turns missed data)

91!!! ୧( ಠ Д ಠ )୨ WHAT!



(-_-。)

1566 days, 0 hours, 53 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
OK, I have finished tidying up the records for players that were added incorrectly at 0%, to put them back at the correct level
1566 days, 0 hours, 36 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
It is a very good thing, by the way, that we're being kept up to date on these changes. What's more, that the system is being fixed is a major improvement over the situation of a couple of weeks ago -- at least as we knew it.

I don't want these to drown amid my flood of disapproval for what exactly the changes ARE; frankly, any working metric, even were it actually meaningless rather than what we're looking at, is an improvement over a broken metric.
1566 days, 0 hours, 11 minutes ago
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singularity
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I for one am happy that the new system doesn't award 1.25 points for a turn finished in half the time. That never felt right to me as a measure of tenacity. I also take my time doing turns rather than rushing. Isn't that also a measure of being tenacious?

On the other hand I don't like that if players get a sector rescue that the bonus gets wiped away so quickly. Perhaps the bonus should be in the form of XP and AP instead of tenacity?

I also think that regaining tenacity should be based on turns played, not days passed. You could have a player that quits 10 games in a row that would have 100% tenacity after an 18 month break. How can they possibly be called tenacious?
1566 days, 0 hours, 10 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I'll take the additional information that has been provided and toss together some documentation on the new Tenacity. I'll post the results here.
1566 days, 0 hours, 4 minutes ago
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ericlavigne
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
"Melee and Mentor games are still excluded"

Mentors are never penalized for resigning? That sounds like a very good thing. It opens up the possibility of mentor tag teams. Also, even a temporary mentor for the first 30-40 turns is better than letting a computer player do the job.

Does the computer take over again if a mentor quits?
1566 days, 0 hours, 2 minutes ago
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rensha
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
This is yet again another situation where there are changes that are made that change the rules in a post de facto way. I dropped some melee games trying to find a race I liked. At the time they did not count against tenacity and the rules of the system were stated clearly. Now my tenacity is wrecked when I was trying to play within the confines of a known system.

Some will say "You shouldn't have dropped." And you would be right were we under the current rules when those games were played. However, taking the rules and time into consideration, I played to gain experience in those races to see which I liked best. I did nothing wrong in the ruleset at the time. Why should I, and many others, now be punished for playing according to the ruleset at the time?

I am aware I hav drops that should count against me, but there are far more that should not than should. Specifically, beginners and melees were not supposed to count against you, now they do. Fine, going forward I will not join melee or beginners games and if I do I will play them out or at least be aare of the consequences should I drop.

TL;DR: We shouldn't be punished for actions when the consequences were neither known nor planned.
1565 days, 23 hours, 56 minutes ago
View baer's profile
baer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Just because it is not illegal does not mean it is right. Dropping games is unfair to other players especially if you have made agreements with them. While I do not know your details in those games other than what you have said, if you were a game dropper with no concern for the others who put their time into those games I think you got what you disserve.
1565 days, 23 hours, 46 minutes ago
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rensha
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Baer I agree with you, but at the same time you cannot penalize someone legally for something "not right" when later it becomes illegal. This is called a post de facto law and is not allowed in most of the western world due to the rule of reason (though arguably we're losing that)

My point is that when there were no consequences I used the system in a way to advance my own understanding of the game, rather than tying myself down to a rigorous schedule and commitment before I was aware of what the commitment would mean. Holding me to consequences that were not even possible for me to be aware of is a greater wrong than for me to have dropped some games I would likely have been wiped out in anyway.
1565 days, 23 hours, 39 minutes ago
View baer's profile
baer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Look at your history, you have dropped twice as many games as you have finished. You are one of the reasons this rule was put in, retroactive or not. I agree with you on one thing you "used the system".
AND, there is no law or rule in here that says that a retroactive measurement can not be installed thus using your own logic, as there is no rule that it can't be done it is OK to do it.
Deal with it!
1565 days, 23 hours, 2 minutes ago
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valhalla
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Making up new rules and retro actively applying them is pretty low.

At the same time, Nu has a history of coming up with overly complex "solutions" to problems that already have tried and true simple solutions. Military score is a great example.

Another is tenacity. We did need to do SOMETHING.

Prior to tenacity, Nu allowed players to hop in and out of games and join and leave as many as they like. This was a predictable strategy since for a very long time, Nu did nothing to discourage this "win switch" strategy. This negatively effected the game for those who stayed. Then we had tenacity which was a big complex beast, like military score, that was forced on us and retroactively applied. At least it penalized game droppers as the biggest issue playing here at Nu is who is next to you and if and how they quit. Nu used to have a LOT of quitters, many in the first 30 turns.

What I want to know about other players is real simple. Of the games that player X plays joins from the start, how many does he or she finish? And in those games, how often do they get their turns in. That is it.

I don't care if they get their turns done early or not. I don't care if they play as a replacement or not. I want to know what the chances are that they get their turns done and finish what they start vs the chances that they flake out and miss many turns. This and their win/loss ranking is all I need to know for making diplomacy decisions.

Why do we keep making things complex?

For ranking, why don't we use a system like is used for chess or like the old planet ladder instead of a system that rewards playing lots of games and keeps newer players from reaching the top even if they are better players? Why keep inventing square wheels? Keep it Simple Stupid works well. There are time tested solutions to all of these issues and on top of that, they have already been applied to planets.

-V-

1565 days, 22 hours, 57 minutes ago
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rensha
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
My history, as it is, is not indicative of anything other than my lack of enjoyment in some game. The more I learn about the game the higher my enjoyment has become.

I was not appealing to some law or rule, merely to the reasoned argument that punishing someones past actions with a rule that did not exist beforehand.

Your desire to have some rigorous standard of ethics, where it applies to a game, is not my problem. Nor should I be punished because some think my past actions were "wrong."

Did I truly effect the outcome in some of those games by leaving, sure in a few. In most, I left when it was a foregone conclusion I would be gone. Though I believe I do not have defend my actions when they were allowable actions. I left because I seek, first and foremost my own enjoyment within any game system.

Your appeal to emotion and a rigid standard that, frankly doesn't exist in a game, is a sad attempt to justify what you must know, by reason, is certainly no way to treat a customer.
1565 days, 22 hours, 43 minutes ago
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cardno
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
The proposed changes to tenacity are FANTASTIC! With the great new chart - I can clearly assess my position just BEFORE I get put into Nu's Tenancity concentration camp - and leave the game forever without actually being put into prison! Thanks Nu for helping me plan to know when to leave. You guys are pals! (and yes, my tenacity is rubbish).
1565 days, 22 hours, 43 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Valhalla & @Rensha: I'm confused, this new version is LESS punishing... yet you are acting like it is more so.

Your Tenacity now recovers all on its own now... so you are now better off than you were before.

For everyone with crappy Tenacity, today is a good day.
1565 days, 22 hours, 35 minutes ago
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valhalla
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Glyn

Having a higher score, along with everyone else having a higher score, is not the point. Its sort of like giving everyone A's in the class and then asking you to pick the best student.

Having a system that tell you how flaky the player of the race next to you is all that matters to me as a player. I don't need all the rest of the junk. I want to know their quit rate and their ability to do their turns. That is all that matters when deciding if I want to work with them or attack them.

Some random number that reverts to 100 and is higher if someone plays a replacement game is absolutely useless for assessing the guy next to you.

-V-
1565 days, 22 hours, 24 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Ra,

> I would like the tenacity at a minimum to allow one to set up a barrier to entry for new players to join the new game to a tenacity of more than a new account player would receive for their initial tenacity.

To keep new players out of a game, use the minimum rank.

Unfortunately there is not currently any way to place Tenacity limits on a game. With the new Tenacity system, there's not really any reason to do so, as it reflects actual Tenacity even less than the previous version.
1565 days, 21 hours, 54 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> ... it reflects actual Tenacity even less than the previous version

Agreed. I still maintain that it needs a different name.

With regard to a bonus for early turns: I know a gentleman -- very nice guy, in fact; I like him a great deal -- who, earlier today, was unable to complete his turn last-minute due to a site outage. He was traveling on business, and (I imagine) with some distress managed to complete his turn on someone's Galaxy tablet, likely at an airport.

It is evident that, if people finish their turns early, they will be less likely to miss turns than those who finish at the last possible moment. They're less likely to be crippled by the revenge of the takeout Mexican food they unwisely consumed last night -- it would be potent refried beans indeed that compel a soul to make sacrifices to the Great White Porcelain God (Whose Name Is Ralph) for more than a few minutes, or a couple of hours at most. Certainly, if something like this happens when someone's taking their turn, it's easier if the turn isn't due for a day or more.

And that's just one example.

Granted, the player who steals a Galaxy from his boss in order to play a turn is, in my mind, more tenacious than someone who won't. But even better off is the fellow who doesn't need to in the first place.
1565 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes ago
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glyn
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Valhalla: Who are these people consistently missing Turns but continuing to play?

You will not enjoy this game frequently missing Turns, I do not think these people exist... what these accounts are most likely multi-account cheaters who don't care about that account.

You have hypothetical situation that to me is absurd.
1565 days, 20 hours, 54 minutes ago
View ville kauppinen's profile
ville kauppinen
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Why not remove the whole tenacity and implement ladder ?

[Early Christmas wish]
1565 days, 20 hours, 45 minutes ago
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wmerkel
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
The new rules are ok ...
Speaking for a 100% player: playing a replacement position should be honored more than a bonus which leaves after 50 days, having no effect if you dont happen to end a game in this period.
1565 days, 19 hours, 59 minutes ago
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adder
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@BigBeefer Thanks for the answers to the questions and for the information itself.
While there are some points on this I like (and what I really like is removing the early turn bonus, @Gnerpk, or the more simple method of calculation) there are also some I really do not like, especially the removal of the missed turn malus, and the daily adjustment (at least the increase. I could live with the decrease, although I am one of the persons with a tenacity score of over 100%).

Why the daily adjustment? Just passing time does not affect tenacity at all. It gives no, absolutely no hint on the nature of the player or his willingness to surrender. I rather would have liked tenacity score to increase only with finished games (moderately) and the sector rescue bonus (largely), and decrease with drops (large decrease), resigns (moderate decrease), holiday modus and missed turns (small decrease per turn, increasing on consecutive turns).
And tenacity over 100% could decrease gently (e.g. 0.1% per day) over time (if you want to have tenacity scores over 100% decrease).
That would be simple and effective.
1565 days, 19 hours, 29 minutes ago
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wmerkel
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Suggestion - the daily modifier could bring tenacity up/down in a corridor between 110/90, but not exactly 100. You have to earn the last 10%, if you lost them before.
1565 days, 16 hours, 56 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Thx for the answers, BB. I agree that people are demanding different things and a perfect system can't be found. I very much favour a simple system over a complex system that is only marginal better. Just one note:

BB >> - There is a holiday mode limit of 3 weeks.

I'm in two games where a player is much longer in "holiday mode". These players stopped responding to messages and don't do anything in-game (I have SI). I can't see if they are using a series of 3-week holiday modes or if they manually press end turn every time.
The interersting point is that this behaviour is reasonable and not harmful in one game and devasting in the other. In one game this player has a small but safe empire and has just to wait until someone wins. There's just nothing he has to do. He has no room to expand and every try would lead to extinction.
In the other game it's the contrary. The military leader doesn't move since many weeks, doesn't respond and doesn't drop or is dropped. The second strongest power is his neighbour - a Crystal. You can imagine what this means for the other players who are/were still struggling to catch up.

I don't think a system can distinguish these situations so I don't have a solution. The only way to decide here would be a human who the players could appeal to and who makes the effort to inspect the situation and has the might to drop a player in the second scenario or at least acticate Hiatus to do his turns until he returns.
Well, this second scenenario rarely occurs. My fear is it will increase and become the standard way of penalty evasion. You know from tax evasion that a system with many good rules can be totally spoiled by a single loophole.

1565 days, 16 hours, 31 minutes ago
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wmerkel
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Hey Emork and BB,

dont you agree we need a system which encourages to take over replacement positions ? I fear that many empires will fall the way Emork described it above, with no saviour in sight - since it wont give a reward. To save huge empires somene else built will take time and effort. A lot of both.

Replacements are very important, since nothing is worse than a spoiled game like Emork described it, by doing nothing and no replacement in sight.
1565 days, 16 hours, 28 minutes ago
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ghostwriter
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@WMerkel: Suggestion - the daily modifier could bring tenacity up/down in a corridor between 110/90, but not exactly 100.

do you mean, excluding the corridor between 90/110?

i also came up with the idea of raising the Tenacity to 90, and not lowering it below 110. so, i fully support your idea as the balance of your post idicates that what you intend is what i intend. also, even as the last 10 percent (90 to 100) has to be earned, so also the "last" 10 percent earned above 100 (that is, from 100 to 110) should be retained, with the 10 percent bonus (now) available added to the "base" of 110 Tenacity. granted, players now below 100/110? would 'gain' an extra 10 percent on their 'max', but that is OK. one of the reasons we play is to gain Campaign Resources. speaking of which:

nothing has been said regarding the effect this has on Campaign Resource generation each turn. to many players, that information is important.

GhostWriter
1565 days, 16 hours, 22 minutes ago
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wmerkel
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Yes, @ghostwriter - that was my suggestion.
1565 days, 16 hours, 21 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I should point out that it seems unlikely BB would make final policy for the game at this time. Were I in Joshua's shoes, I'd hold on to authority about game design.
1565 days, 16 hours, 5 minutes ago
View trollfactory's profile
trollfactory
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I really would welcome a way for active searching/presenting a replacement player if i'm unable to continue playing a position due to RL issues. I still think there is a difference if i simply resign without caring about the position or, more worse, being dropped after missing 3 turns. Dropped positions are already damaged to some degree after 3 missied turns. I see 3 different ways of leaving a position and all 3 ways have a different influence on the position and the game:

1. Active replacement
I'm responsible for the position and the game i have to leave. But I’m able to plan the steps for resignment and I’m looking for a replacement player myself so i can hand over the position to the following player.
This is perhaps the best way as the position and the game itself keeps running without any problems.
Alas, this option is not available at the moment and i think, if it would be available, the player who resigned and took care for a replacement should not be punished.

2. Resignment
I resign and take no care about a replacement. It is still pure luck if a replacement player takes over and depending on the replacement, the position / the game maybe ruined or not.
The player who resigns should take tenacity penalties.

3. Dropping
I do nothing, waste 3 turns and I’m being dropped out of the game. Simply due to the fact I do not care in any way about the position and block the position for 3 turns, a replacement player will have a hard job to take care about the position again. Positions with 3 or more unplayed turns are less attractive to take over.
I think the dropping player should take a much higher tenacity penalty compared to top 1 or 2

1565 days, 14 hours, 35 minutes ago
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crystalct
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
About Holiday Mode, I think it should not to be a parking system, but should be renewed every 2 week, otherwise there is no way to replace a player in permanent holiday.
1565 days, 14 hours, 31 minutes ago
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rsk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@crystalct - farther down Big Beefer said it was limited to 3 weeks

Overall, I think the new changes are fine. This is a game. A paid game. Let's not make it too complex. Just like rank or campaign points, which we all know can be farmed if a player really wants to, it's a window into that player but not the whole picture.

I think looking at a player's history is a lot more telling as to whether a player will stick around than the tenacity metric ever was.

(All that said, I believe there is room for an improved evaluation of players, a la the afore mentioned ladder system, but this is off-topic)
1565 days, 14 hours, 29 minutes ago
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crystalct
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@rsk, you mean about Tenacity, i mean in general.
1565 days, 12 hours, 38 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I like the loss of bonus for early return of turns.

Not so keen on the not losing any for missing turns. People who return one turn in 2 should be punished.

This complicated loss of up to 25 for a dropped game seems extreme. I think there should be an appeal situation on that. You miss out 3 turns due to RL issues and get hit by a resignation for missing three turns and you then return to a 25 point hit!

I also think that accounts that are not being played should not gain the bonus. If you get a really low tenacity for multiple game resignations should not allow you to recover by coming back in 3 months after moving to a second account (or will encourage multiple accounts).

I think this means with the recovery bonus and the over 100 loss will mean that everyone will have to have half their games as playing as replacement players. This will help maintain the scores briefly above 100.

I also think everyone should restart at 100 like the last tenacity changes.

This will not punish the people who resigned when they thought the game was exempt. It also gives the "bad" players a chance to change their way (well they are not going to change are they if they are on 40% and the only way to increase is to wait).

How about a tenacity bonus for winning a game?
1565 days, 11 hours, 59 minutes ago
View baer's profile
baer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I am fine with the new way, and I was fine with the old way. There were two things at Nu that just about drove me out, one was the large number of players who would join, check out the location, play a turn or two to see if there were some good planets close by and if things did not look like there was an advantageous position they would drop. Some of them would join a number o games and after a few turns decide which ones gave them the best advantage and then just drop all the rest.
The other was the large number of players who play(ed) more than one race in a game through various means.
R L should always take precedence but there are also those that make deals or negotiate a trade Etc and then drop putting those that they made the deal with at a potential disadvantage.
These things seem to have become somewhat less prevalent. Also, in Nu I have learned to trust no one that I do not know well and also to look at the history of players before I agree to any kind o deal with them. Their history helps me decide how seriously to take their game persona.
1565 days, 10 hours, 35 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> How about a tenacity bonus for winning a game?

As I see it, winning a game is more about skill then Tenacity, although it would fit better with the new system.

A similar bonus that is closer to the dictionary definition of tenacity would be a bonus for completion of a game.
1565 days, 9 hours, 35 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
The first stage of putting together the new Tenacity article has been completed. Comments on this are welcome in the Documentation thread (http://planets.nu/#/activity/1810471). There are two questions that still need to be answered:

1. At what turn is a player a replacement vs. an original player?

2. What is the official definition of a Beginner game?
1565 days, 8 hours, 25 minutes ago
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kozack
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Seems , the Nu planets team command gets a saboteur recently.
1565 days, 7 hours, 22 minutes ago
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olegboleg
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
yet another idea:
daily grind could be awarded but the amount you get is depending on the size of the empire (planets+ships). so if you have a huge empire and you do your turn ealry, you get rewarded allot, but with a small empire you get almost nothing.

why?
well it should pretty well remove any abuse in the form of just clicking "turn done" to increase your tenacity.

note: i am not saying i am pro this, its just an idea that came to me as a compromise, since many seem to love the daily grind bonus.

cheerio
olegboleg
1565 days, 7 hours, 17 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> A similar bonus that is closer to the dictionary definition of tenacity would be a bonus for completion of a game.

When has the description of "tenacity" fit some of the previous rules?

Putting a turn in early is not tenacious. Its called "playing the system in a self centred manner".

This system should be renamed as "the system that rewards not missing turns, dropping because your initial set up is to the max etc".

So giving a person who has the skill and "tenacity" to win a 10% reward towards your campaign and advantage reward is not a bad thing. As people say it only lasts 50 days before it is worthless.

So you can forget about dictionary definitions for a word that partially fits a definition a gaming site wants to encourage its gamers to be like.

1565 days, 7 hours, 1 minutes ago
View tom n's profile
tom n
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Trollfactory, Totally agree, and clearly stated. Three categories of players leaving games, and each should be treated differently.
1565 days, 7 hours, 0 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> yet another idea:
> daily grind could be awarded but the amount you get is depending on the size of the empire (planets+ships). so if you have a huge empire and you do your turn ealry, you get rewarded allot, but with a small empire you get almost nothing.

There were four parts to the Daily Grind (see the page linked above). Which part(s) do you mean?

Moving to the technical side, the Daily Grind did not have to see into a game to function, but your idea would. That significantly increases the complexity. Do we really want this much more complexity?

> This system should be renamed as "the system that rewards not missing turns, dropping because your initial set up is to the max etc".

Except that it no longer rewards players for not missing turns.
1565 days, 6 hours, 34 minutes ago
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olegboleg
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@whisperer,

i am just brainstorming here. i do not poke my ideas from all sites to look for flaws. :)

but you cant have it both ways. simple and taking allot fo things into account. If you try to describe any (not directly measurable) thing with formulas, you will have to make a choice.

the simpler the formula, the less accurate the result will be and the more flaws it will have. the closer you want to get to describing this "thing" the more complex the formula will get.

Cheerio
Olegboleg
1565 days, 4 hours, 31 minutes ago
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valhalla
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply

1. At what turn is a player a replacement vs. an original player?

An original player started the game at the beginning and played turn 1. I don't understand why we need an opinion poll for this. If someone came before you and you are replacing them, you are a replacement player. Period.

Nu has a tendency to make simple things overly complicated. It can take years, but eventually we get to simple clear systems as we did by dropping military score.

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.


2. What is the official definition of a Beginner game?

That we can define as well like. Player has finished 3 games or less? Almost anything simple and clear will work.


3. Is the penalty for being dropped for all games, or does it have the same exemptions as a resignation?

Same. Keep It Simple Stupid. Players are playing the game they started, or they are not. Same for the reason people quit, you don't want to have to police that and decide the good excuses from the bad ones. A drop is a drop period.






1565 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Valhalla,

> I don't understand why we need an opinion poll for this.

The questions were directed at Big Beefer. I'm sorry that I didn't make that adequately clear.
1565 days, 2 hours, 26 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply

1. At what turn is a player a replacement vs. an original player?
- If they join anytime turn 2 or later.

2. What is the official definition of a Beginner game?
- Beginner games have "Beginner" in their Game Type. They are limited to ranks Lt. and below. Beginner games are not currently exempt from tenacity.

3. Is the penalty for being dropped for all games, or does it have the same exemptions as a resignation?
- Dropping and resigning are treated exactly the same.

NOTE: I spoke incorrectly above (and have edited the post to fix it). Tenacity DOES apply to melee games. The only games exempt from tenacity currently are Mentor games (and private games of course).

If I've missed any questions on how this works, let me know. I'm not going to comment on all the suggestions right now, but we will consider them for future changes.
1565 days, 2 hours, 26 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply

1. At what turn is a player a replacement vs. an original player?
- If they join anytime turn 2 or later.

2. What is the official definition of a Beginner game?
- Beginner games have "Beginner" in their Game Type. They are limited to ranks Lt. and below. Beginner games are not currently exempt from tenacity.

3. Is the penalty for being dropped for all games, or does it have the same exemptions as a resignation?
- Dropping and resigning are treated exactly the same.

NOTE: I spoke incorrectly above (and have edited the post to fix it). Tenacity DOES apply to melee games. The only games exempt from tenacity currently are Mentor games (and private games of course).

If I've missed any questions on how this works, let me know. I'm not going to comment on all the suggestions right now, but we will consider them for future changes.
1565 days, 1 hours, 59 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Big+Beefer,

Thank you for the information. I have updated the tables and notes in the page for the New Tenacity. If you could verify that it is correct WRT the new system, I'd appreciate it. This will allow us to move forward on creating the actual documentation.

I defined Beginner games by the maximum rank. This allows for player-created public beginner games. Are these counted as such by the system?
1565 days, 0 hours, 57 minutes ago
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rhunter
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Big Beefer,

> The only games exempt from tenacity currently are Mentor games (and private games of course).<

So there's been a change made then to how this works with private games? Because prior to this if you missed a turn in a private game it did affect the "missed turns" total in your profile (and I can only assume it affected the tenacity score as well?)
1565 days, 0 hours, 46 minutes ago
View big beefer's profile
big beefer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
All player-created games are labeled as Custom. Only system-created games will be labeled Beginner.

Missed turn from private games will still show up on your profile. I'll look into that.
1565 days, 0 hours, 14 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Big+Beefer,

> All player-created games are labeled as Custom. Only system-created games will be labeled Beginner.

That information has been added to the page.
1564 days, 22 hours, 48 minutes ago
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endymion
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I'm new around here and frustrated with the Midship V Mentor games and I'm not sure the tenacity changes help address those nproblems or help NU in a positive long term way. The simple truth is you end up with folks in the M vM games who don't like it and leave forever - so they could care less about tenacity. There's another group who realize they can quit, and since they have little invested in that account, start over with a new name, again, they could care less about tenacity. I think it would be better to provide incentives to the second group so they'd stay, or be combined into a M v M game with more players without penalty. That would help a third group (raises hand) of VGA players who would like to finish what they started and have a reasonable chance of a positive outcome.
1564 days, 22 hours, 11 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> The simple truth is you end up with folks in the M vM games who don't like it and leave forever - so they could care less about tenacity

MvM games are exempt from Tenacity.
1563 days, 13 hours, 41 minutes ago
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tidac
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I know it’s a bit late in this thread but I’d like to add my 2 cents about losing the daily grind. I think tenacity should not only be your playing style, or stick-to-itiveness, it should also be your passion for playing.

I’ve only been playing the new version for a very short time, but I had already decided my next game would be a minimum tenacity qualifying game. I hate that there’s always one person who waits till the last second to do his/her turn. I want to play with the guys that check their email every few hours like me to see if the turn has happened. I think that’s what the daily grind brought to the game. Tenacity should also be about your passion for playing every turn as soon as it happens. If not measured there, it should be measured somewhere so like minded people can play together.

Like I said, just my 2 cents. :)

Thanks
1563 days, 13 hours, 27 minutes ago
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nanning
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@TIDAC, the problem with doing turns is the Diplomacy stuff: you ask a question, and the reaction of the other player could determine a change in action. Personally, I talk with all other interested players, so I often need to wait on their response. It is impossible to tell if somebody ignores you, or just hasn't seen your question yet. So I keep my turn 'unfinished' until an hour or so before Next Turn.

Is this less tenacious? I hope not.
1563 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes ago
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smn
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I agree with Nanning. A turn requires initial analysis, initial commentary, thinking about it, coordinating with allies or neutrals and finally making the decisions and setting the last orders. It is simply not possible to be competitive on higher levels if your not paying attention to what others are planning to do.

This was my main problem with the daily grind - that it rewarded a playing style that is inherently inferior and doesn't cut it on the hardest level.
1563 days, 13 hours, 11 minutes ago
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endymion
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I think these are excellent points. Add in that NU seems to be seeking a truly global player base and the fact that that entails 24 time zones and different work and sleep schedules and communications and a grind is a tough thing indeed.
1563 days, 11 hours, 57 minutes ago
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tidac
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Nanning, that is a good point, I hadn't thought about that aspect. And I'm sure that is what's happening in some cases, not all... :) @Endymion, also a good point. I'm not saying everyone needs to drop their real life to play, or must play their turns quickly, but if there were a separate measure for daily grind, with no negative connotation or consequences for a low score, those of us who do like to play quickly could find each other... We could call it "Obsession Quotient" :)
1563 days, 11 hours, 26 minutes ago
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ericlavigne
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Tidac The phrase you are looking for is "playing speed". There are plenty of obsessive players here who consider every detail of a turn and focus more on playing the turn well than on playing it quickly.

Even if you want to play a fast game, there's no need to measure playing speed for a player. Just join games in which the host runs every day, and you will never need to play with slow players like me.
1563 days, 11 hours, 6 minutes ago
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tidac
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Ericlavigne, point taken. Yes, playing speed is exactly what I'm referring to, if it takes 3-4 hours for me to complete a turn, I'm probably doing it 90% of the time in the front half of my allotted time, even for a daily game. (that will probably change some once I get deeper into games). Obviously not for everyone, and I wouldn't want to impose it on any one, but it would be nice to have a way to find people who act similarly...that's all...
1563 days, 11 hours, 4 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Oh, I dunno; some of us play daily games just fine, don't use add-ons, and try to consider every aspect of every turn.

It helps if I play it early, though.
1563 days, 10 hours, 58 minutes ago
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ericlavigne
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Tidac That is exactly the benefit that you will get in a game where the host runs every day. It is not just that players are forced to play at least once per day. The players who choose to join a game that runs so frequently are players who think like you do - the early turns will happen much faster than once per day.
1563 days, 8 hours, 15 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
If you join a 3 turns a week game you should expect it to run three times a week and not four or five.

Some people may jump on around the host time to see how the turn ran. But then have to wait for allies or even enemies to respond. On the response to diplomacy this may change elements of that turn. If you are coordinating with people from different time zones or only respond in the last few hours before the host time then expect it to be on time or only an hour or two early.

If you want to have instant early games start an interest game of 7 turns a week.

Or start a game versus 10 computer players. They will do their turn when you run yours. But they don't respond to diplomacy, don't trade ships and show no mercy. But you can run scores of turns a day with those games.
1563 days, 4 hours, 3 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> start a game versus 10 computer players. They will do their turn when you run yours. But they don't respond to diplomacy, don't trade ships and show no mercy. But you can run scores of turns a day with those games.

That will work, but the computer isn't a very good player. In order to beat the computer, all you need to do is hunker down behind minefields for a bit (the AI doesn't understand minefields, especially webmines) while you concentrate on building warships, then start taking out their attacking ships. After you kill the first opponent, the rest are easy prey.

While games against the AI may be fun, they're not challenging and they don't contribute towards your Achievement score.
1562 days, 22 hours, 57 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Big Beefer,

> If you could verify that it is correct WRT the new system, I'd appreciate it.

Based on the lack of a response, I have moved forward with this. The updated version is here. The remaining table and the footnotes will be removed once we have verified the accuracy.

http://help.planets.nu/NewTenacity
1562 days, 20 hours, 48 minutes ago
View mjs68508's profile
mjs68508
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Big Beefer,

It seems like you might as well as eliminate the Tenacity Tab on the Leadership Page, as well as the Tenacity Page, itself. Since everyone will be normalizing toward 100%, it seems that page is no longer relevant. Streamlining out-of-date tabs/pages makes for a better browser experience.
1562 days, 20 hours, 30 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> everyone will be normalizing toward 100%

That reminds me of a relevant song lyric:

"the trees are all kept equal by hatchet, axe, and saw"
1562 days, 17 hours, 10 minutes ago
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the green knight
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Sounds like a solid, understandable system. Well done Big Beefeater!
1562 days, 10 hours, 27 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> I hope that someone will find the time to go through the UserVoice feedback and release the votes that have been made for changes that have been put into place, are planned to be put into place, or have been refused.

Interesting results from this.

http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/6763671-when-a-player-is-dropped-due-to-missing-turns-the has been marked as completed, even though it wasn't. The core of this request is that players being dropped due to missing should ALWAYS receive a penalty. As long as there are exceptions for being dropped, this hasn't been implemented.

http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/6099531-improve-the-tenacity-concept-by-allowing-graceful hasn't been marked as complete, even though it was.
1562 days, 1 hours, 31 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Big+Beefer,

Message received and document updated. Sorry, PM doesn't work from IE :(
1561 days, 6 hours, 15 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
The first pass of the final documentation of the new Tenacity system is now complete. There are three statements in that document that summarize my issues with the current system, two of which also applied to the old system.

1. At this time, the management of Planets.nu believes that Tenacity is not related to when, or even if, a player makes their turn, and no information on playing individual turns is included in the Tenacity score.

This is JUST WRONG. To me, a tenacious player would never miss a turn, yet the new system removes the Missed Turn Penalty. With the normalization to 100%, a 2 point penalty for missing a turn, and possibly 1 point for use of Holiday mode and for having looked at a turn but not selecting Done, would be easy to implement, and would cause the Tenacity score to more accurately reflect a player's tenacity (dictionary definition). I believe that the Early Turn Bonus was needed to balance the Missed Turn Penalty, but with the normalization to 100%, we should be able to get by without it.

2. Nothing that an original player does will have a positive effect on their Tenacity score.

With the exception of the highly disputed (and now defunct) Early Turn Bonus, this was also true of the old system. This too is JUST WRONG. IMHO, any original player who is tenacious enough to stay to the end of a game should get a small bonus to their Tenacity.

3. Nothing that a replacement player does will have a negative effect on their Tenacity score.

With the exception of the Missed Turn Penalty (also now defunct), this was also true in the old system. This is the worst of the lot. This means that a person could come in as a replacement player, screw up the entire game, or rebalance the game towards a friend, and walk away, all without any penalty.

In both items 2 and 3 above, there should be a positive to balance the negative. When you take a chance, there should be the opportunity for both gain and loss.

Finally, it should be considered that when a player is dropped for missing three consecutive turns, they're demonstrating even less tenacity than a player who resigns, while creating a larger hole in the game. The penalty for being dropped should be higher than the penalty for resigning, and there should be NO EXCEPTIONS (at least remove the exception for replacement players).

My other issues with the new system are:

A. The normalization should not be done every day. It should be done on days when a player's completed turn is run (a day with no run, or a day when the turn isn't completed would result in no normalization). This would normally cause penalties and bonuses to last longer.

B. The change to the Rescue Bonus that requires advancement of position is more skill than tenacity. This should be returned to maintaining position.

C. I feel that the rate of normalization is a bit too fast. Is there any way that it could be either slowed overall (0.1 point per day), or drastically slowed within a window (0.05 points per day in the 80-110% window)?

Finally, I'm sure that a lot of thought went into this design. If some of that information were to be made available to us, it might help those of us who have issues with the new system to understand the logic behind the changes. This would probably reduce the level of disagreement.
1561 days, 2 hours, 37 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I agree with every one of @Whisperer's points. It's rare that this happens. There are some minor caveats that I'd offer, but they're modifications.

- I don't think that the risk for a replacement should be a large one. We need to encourage replacements. Nevertheless, some risk should exist.
- Likewise, a small completion bonus would make sense. Formerly, it would come from Daily Grind. Now, we're all faced with penalties -- and the world has enough of those without making our game a misery as well.
- The name, I think, is still incorrect, and I resent it. I propose "Tenancy" as a name for the new stat, since all it celebrates is one's ability to "be there".

I'd like the Daily Grind score to be reinstituted. It worked well.
1561 days, 0 hours, 58 minutes ago
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baer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I tend to agree with both of you. (Whisperer and Gnerphk
All I want to see is a penalty for those that jump into games and then drop if they do not like their location or the first planets they find. I really have no love for what is becoming a complicated mess. Not fun, overly complex. Hell if I want more complex and fun-less stuff all I have to do is take on more clients.
This game is supposed to be fun and it is becoming less so.
1561 days, 0 hours, 21 minutes ago
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sepiola
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Yup. Yet another player that agrees with the above comments by Whisperer, Gnerphk and Baer. The proposed new system replaces an overly complex system that doesn't really measure tenacity with another overly complex system that does not measure tenacity.

All I really want to know about the guy next to me is how often they drop games and how often they miss their turns. I don't want to ally with yet another Nu player that quits on turn 30.

If the goal is to reward replacements, there are other ways to do that.
1560 days, 22 hours, 0 minutes ago
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dotman
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@BB: "This is a system that will likely never please everybody."

The problem with tenacity has always been that it tried to do too many things. Tweaking it won't fix that fundamental flaw.

1560 days, 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I'd be interested to hear more on the subject from that perspective, @Dotman. You've intrigued me.
1560 days, 7 hours, 41 minutes ago
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frostriese
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
a little bit offtopic ... but the current tenacity ratings are odd ... I lost tenacity after wining a sector. At the moment I am not allowed to join a team game due to tenacity restrictions.

Can I expect that the tenacity values will be re-computed as soon as the "new" metric is implemented?

Or must I contact the site admins to let me explain my rating?

thx in adv
Frostie
1560 days, 7 hours, 18 minutes ago
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mjs68508
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
There will be no recalculations. All ratings are based on our current ratings, and then they normalize toward 100%. If I were you, I would use the Contact button. Your rating is way, way, way low considering your performance/actions. I don't see how your rating got so low by using any of the previous metrics. There definitely seems to be an error.
1560 days, 5 hours, 3 minutes ago
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spaxx
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Yeah, I'm another that has a ridiculous error in my current tenacity rating and unable to join certain games....despite being very tenacious.
1560 days, 1 hours, 4 minutes ago
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spaxx
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Many thanks for the response and timely changes to fix my tenacity. You guys are doing a great job. I'm glad to be a part of this community.
1554 days, 9 hours, 29 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Big+Beefer,

Do we have a release schedule on this? Also, are there any other changes in this release that need to be documented?
1554 days, 9 hours, 18 minutes ago
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mjs68508
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
1554 days, 9 hours, 12 minutes ago
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mjs68508
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
That previous npost was a secret note to all Fasco-Empire Officers in our diabolical plan to take over the Nuniverse.

Anyway, it has been nice with the new tenacity. I hadn't missed a turn in over a year. I kept it high so I could get all the Empire and Fascist toys.

Now that I have most of them and with the tenacity change, I have missed 3 in the last 2 weeks. Now, I did the turn. I just didn't press End Turn in case I thought of anything else. Usually, a few hours before it is due, I would press End Turn. It is nice that now we don't have to worry about and let the clock run out.
1554 days, 9 hours, 3 minutes ago
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rhunter
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
It kinda sucks watching my previously 117.xx% tenacity slowly creep downward all by itself tho.. knowing that everyone with a tenacity score lower than 100% is watching their score slowly creep upward all by itself to meet my score. In my mind, this process basically negates the point and usefulness of the tenacity number altogether.
1554 days, 9 hours, 0 minutes ago
View gnerphk's profile
gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Yeah, I agree, RH. If only it had been working properly a month ago, I'd say go back.

This is just depressing.
1554 days, 8 hours, 52 minutes ago
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baer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Yes, my over 100 score is going down so I am starting to think why bother getting every single turn in. I also have one game where my location really sucks and all I have around me are Amorphs and freezing mineral-less rocks so why not just drop?
This is now overly complex and meaningless.
1554 days, 8 hours, 43 minutes ago
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gnerphk
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I wouldn't drop, @Baer. They may change it back. Got to watch out for that sort of thing.

At least wait until the formal announcement to drop, anyway. After that, you get a free drop every now and again, so why not use it?
1554 days, 8 hours, 38 minutes ago
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baer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
I won't but I will just go back to looking at the history of other players before I agree to make any deal with them.
1554 days, 8 hours, 33 minutes ago
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jessilaurn
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Thank you, thank you, thank you for these changes.
1554 days, 8 hours, 27 minutes ago
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trollfactory
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
After all these tons of discussion about tenacity and mixed up changes and changes again, does still someone care about it really?
Introducing fast beams was a worthy game issue to be discussed for example but this endless one without a result in sight?

1554 days, 7 hours, 57 minutes ago
View whisperer's profile
whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> After all these tons of discussion about tenacity and mixed up changes and changes again, does still someone care about it really?

I care about a functional and meaningful Tenacity. The hack that's now being called "Tenacity"? Ummm ... errr ... no.
1554 days, 7 hours, 38 minutes ago
View trollfactory's profile
trollfactory
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Whisperer
We could discuss about the type of system and as it seems Joshua as site admin wants a penalty system, so discussion about this closed.

Once the admins decided for a system it should be not a big issue to make it work without major errors.

But it is not the case - still faulty and intransparent - for months.

So what is conclusion?
It is meant to be this way or not worth the effort to be fixed.

Either way, further discussions about this issue are obsolete.
1554 days, 7 hours, 36 minutes ago
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mjs68508
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Tenacity is a prime example of "Be careful what you ask for. You just may get it." We hollered endlessly for such a mechanism ignoring the fact that the variety of people here is so vast that any mechanism would make 10% happy, be ignored by 70%, and piss off 20%.

Now, we are doing the same thing with the idea of a ladder. The game itself is great. It is the meta game that messes things up. We should just get rid of the meta game.

1. Get rid of Achievement and all the ranks and leadership.

2. Make all Campaign Advantages available for a fee (double the membership for a Campaign membership?)

3. Except for introductory games, make no public games. This way, all games will have a non-playing Host to stop the game for replacements, like in the old days.

4. Bring back the forums and make a game banter page (with pictures and a link on the game page) for each game.

5. Make it so our profiles can have pictures and carriage returns, i.e., a true profile.

What Joshua has done with the game, itself, is fantastic. Duplicating its functionality in the classic games and then expanding it with the Standard and Campaign games is amazing and way more than everyone ever dreamed off.

But, the meta game sucks, causes division, confusion, and has diminished the fun we used to have with the forums.
1554 days, 7 hours, 13 minutes ago
View jessilaurn's profile
jessilaurn
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Look. The point of Tenacity was to cut down on dropped games, because of the negative effect game-dropping has on the game. The revised Tenacity does that, without a bunch of other stuff slapped on. It's back to the original purpose. And that makes me a happy camper.
1554 days, 7 hours, 8 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> Now, we are doing the same thing with the idea of a ladder.

Not really. The Tenacity score used to be able to keep players out of certain games. The Ladder system is not planned to be able to restrict anyone, except it might be used to select the players for the Championship games.

> Make it so our profiles can have pictures and carriage returns

Your profile can now have carriage returns. Big Beefer fixed this about a week ago.
1554 days, 7 hours, 5 minutes ago
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martinr
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
>2. Make all Campaign Advantages available for a fee (double the membership for a Campaign membership?)

Hands off my hard earned campaign advantages!

Unless they pay three times the amount which is a special section for only those who pay for it where they gain no campaign points for playing in earned games.

Then the people who have earned their points can play in games where they can use their hard earned campaign points.

Of my last attempt to see how much people would pay for getting all the campaign advantages a handful wanted to pay a "one of fee" or did not want to pay for it.
1554 days, 7 hours, 4 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> The revised Tenacity does that, without a bunch of other stuff slapped on. It's back to the original purpose.

Please explain to me why a Replacement player who increases the position of their race is less likely to drop games than a replacement player who maintains the position of their race. When I see a logically valid answer to this, then I might agree with you.

This most recent set of changes to the Tenacity score improved a few things, but left some rather large holes, and created several more.
1554 days, 6 hours, 2 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> Whats original purpose of Tenacity? See how reliable a player is, i guess.

From the first Tenacity announcement (http://planets.nu/post/tenacity-the-true-measure-of-a-commander):

> Ever since the creation of the VGA Planets there has been a single problem which has plagued the game. It has been complained about since the beginning of time itself. It is the problem of commanders quitting games (dropping) just when a fight was getting good.
1554 days, 5 hours, 59 minutes ago
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mjs68508
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
"> Make it so our profiles can have pictures and carriage returns

Your profile can now have carriage returns. Big Beefer fixed this about a week ago."

Whoo - hoo! Now, I just have to figure out how to one-up Siggi! What's cooler than doing our turns in the nude?
1554 days, 5 hours, 56 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> What's cooler than doing our turns in the nude?

Be careful. This newsfeed is supposed to be rated "PG" due to Sci-Fi Violence. If we add nudity, we might have to change that to "PG-13" ;)
1548 days, 7 hours, 26 minutes ago
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frostriese
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@BB: one of the first questions in this thread was

"include your entire history or remains the last 10 games" ...

The only matching reply was

"We no longer look at historical data at all. The only reasons your tenacity will change from here on out is for a drop, resign, rescue bonus (given at end of game), or the daily adjustments."

Forgive my silly question - this means every time one of the events "drop", "resign", "game end" occur, you update the tenacity. On a time based schedule you "adjust" the tenacity score by adding 0.2 point per day.

The order of games in our history tab has no impact on the tenacity anymore. There is no tweak by adding some games in the history at the right "position / time span".

@Whisperer: thanks alot for your summary at "http://help.planets.nu/NewTenacity"
1548 days, 6 hours, 15 minutes ago
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big beefer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
Yeah, the "new" system was initialized with everyone's tenacity at that time it started. The historical data was included in that number of course, but doesn't matter much anymore. There is no more "dropping off" of games or anything like that, so it doesn't matter when you join a game or what ID it is.
1548 days, 5 hours, 47 minutes ago
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rhunter
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
As I've followed along with this thread, the one thought that keeps bouncing around in my head on this subject is that the "tenacity" rating no longer matters. As everyone's number slowly moves toward 100% over time, the rating will matter less and less.
In a perfect world, at some point in the future everyone's tenacity rating will be 100% and then it will be 100% irrelevant.

...unless there's some facet of this changed system I'm missing here...?
1548 days, 5 hours, 43 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
@Rhunter,

I believe you've hit one of the core problems with this version of the Tenacity Score, which is the fact that it has almost nothing to do with tenacity as described in any dictionary. So much for "truth in advertising".
1548 days, 5 hours, 29 minutes ago
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frostriese
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
From my point of view ... there is a period of time after a drop / resign, where you cannot join games with a minimum tenacity.

I resigned games due to real life issues - organized replacement players - and my rating is still below 80%.

I can wait for 50 days to be able to join a tenacity restricted game.

One of the core objectives will be fullfilled -- keep the regular quiting players out of the restricted games. At least for some weeks ... but they can use different accounts ... one account per season :-)

Human invented systems always fail ;-)

Frostie
1548 days, 5 hours, 23 minutes ago
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whisperer
RE: TENACITY CHANGES: We are in the process of updating the...Write Reply
> there is a period of time after a drop / resign, where you cannot join games with a minimum tenacity.

1. That period is very short in comparison to the length of a game.

2. The vast majority of system-created games have no Tenacity limits.

3. Player-created games can't have Tenacity limits set on them in the game creation window.

> One of the core objectives will be fullfilled

As you can see, not very well.