The new NU features BALANCE discussion thread

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2646 days, 22 hours, 53 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
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In this thread let's try to assemble the most informed opinions about some of the features that are being rolled out to balance the races.
This is NOT a thread to discuss if you feel the races are currently balanced in VGAP Host version 3.22.046, the horse is dead and we should stop kicking it. The "standard" games are going to remain.

Let's talk borg to begin with since they are traditionally one of the most (if not THE most) dangerous race in VGA and any tweaks need to be carefully weighed.
New borg options:

Iron slave class tug: Has 2 engines instead of 1. Total game balance impact: minor. 

B41b: Is a chunnel target. This is a tech2 (6/20/15 minerals) chunnel link. My predicted game effect: Many far-flung bases that could not produce a firecloud due to mineral constraints now can. Cheaper than building a low-tech firecloud to act as a node to any given sector. Total game balance impact in my opinion: minor. It's a nice addition but on the whole I don't see a major shift.

B222b: Can chunnel itself (and only itself) to any chunnel target OR any B200 class probe.
This is the big one. Wow. There are hundreds and hundreds of possibilities with this. The most important is increased assimilation rate. One of the biggest balancing factors in assimilation is the time it takes. Often planets are assimilated starting only with 1 clan from a probe. This guy can bring in 40. And then cart around 40 minerals to build up bases and provide light defence until bases are built. Beyond the immense economic benefits this means the borg can go on a very early offensive with this probe/destroyer combination. VERY early, like turn 3 in your freighter pool. The early game prey is now a serious hunter who can take down a large number of early game targets from out of the blue, many ships can be taken out by 2 B222b, particularly the 2 torp type (cobol, etc...). Total game balance impact: MAJOR.

Bases lay/sweep mines: Borg are the ultimate positioning race, if you need to be somewhere with mines/beams then you just go there. While borg bases will have more/better beams I don't see this is a major shift in borg gameplay.
I predict many borg will remove the ability to lay large minefields in favour of other advantages. 

The important part of this discussion is what you have to give up for the benefits. Borg have few points to play with and access to the B222b may come at great cost. I don't dislike any of these new options, they are not necessarily unbalanced. Either way let's hear about the other races and compare. Some smaller changes like allowing bases to lay/sweep mines can have a bigger effect on some races too.

2646 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes ago
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veldan
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Colonies

Taurus Class Transport
Little Joe Light Escort

Both of these modded ship types are slight improvements to their standard options, but still of limited utility.  Little Joes are nice little mine sweepers, but honestly, that's what you have fighters for.  Impact, minor

Scorpius Class Carrier and Heavy Carrier -- Wow, the Colonies actually have mid-range combat option aside from a paired Cygnus/Patriot.  Both Carriers come at a cost reduction in minerals compared to the standard Scorpius.  The Carrier version requires three engines and is comparable to the Imperial Super Star Carrier/SSD.  The four engine Heavy Carrier is comparable to (but not quite as good as) an Instrumentality with 6 beams and 5 bays, it also has a decent cargo hold of 130.  The heavy is also above the magic number of 351kt.  Impact, Expanded capability to strike early game, re-supply Patriots, etc... Moderate to Major.

Iron Lady Command Ship -- Ships at same location as command ship move before minelaying.  Still easily capturable.  Not too shabby, If your enemy doesn't think out their mine fields at least two turns in advance, they might end up with a full force of Virgos in their face.  Makes the already offensively minded Colonies that much more dangerous.  Also gives the Colonies advantages vs. Web mines that they currently lack.  This ship needs to have the ability to toggle the option on and off.  Impact -- Moderate.

Starbase fighter sweeping -- Gives a reason to keep all bases fully stocked.  Gives the Colonies some extra defensive advantages.  Impact --Minor  Most people don't counter mine against the Colonies... this just reinforces that behavior.

Ion starbase shield -- Lot's of light ships in the Colonial fleet.  Now gives no reason to ever have to move your Lady Royales.  Impact -- Minor

Starbase mine laying -- Keeps the Cobols out on campaign rather than at home keeping up defensive minefields.  Impact -- Minor

Toggle between minefield size limit of 100 vs. 150 ly's.  I can see many reasons why someone might shut this off.  Keep smaller overlapping minefields w/o using a special fcode for it.  High utility here.  Impact -- Minor. 

2646 days, 19 hours, 36 minutes ago
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kokunai
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There are a few issues with EE but I will wait as Joshua said there is an advantage coming out in the next few days for them.
2646 days, 19 hours, 30 minutes ago
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kedalion
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veldan, I'd rate the Command ship impact a lot higher when dealing with web mines. In fact I think it makes webs completely useless against colonials (and rebels).
Now you can move any amount of sweepers without ever having to hit a webmine again. Additionally, the rebels also gain the same advantage for normal mines as well as any other race than can obtain a command ship.

2646 days, 17 hours, 50 minutes ago
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xeye
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Guys, before dropping out random odd hull changes, check the well discussed ready shiplists
like this one http://torstatus.blutmagie.de/~h3s/vagabond/TList/tlist.html

Planets is old game and most of the balance/hulls changes were not just discussed sometimes somewhere, they were implemented, played and reviewed.

2646 days, 15 hours, 11 minutes ago
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veldan
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Actually, after a quick review many of the hull changes are more/less straight from tlist 1.1.  Of course the special abilities are... ummm... not from there, and really should have been game tested first.
2646 days, 9 hours, 57 minutes ago
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daniel payne
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I can't tell quite how some of the features will be implemented, so I am going to discuss as if it were in a reasonable fashion and just assume that this will be the case.

Bird Men:

Bright Heart Light Destroyer: This is a good design to add to the Birds.  With 1 engine and still only tech 3, Bright Hearts can be a powerful/cheap option to accompany Swift Hearts.  I can see pairs of these giving the Birds some real beef at a point in the game when they usually can not afford it.  You still want to build as many Resolutes/Dark Wings as possible.  But this ship is a significant gain for the Birds.
IMPACT: MODERATE

Medium Transport: Does not cloak.  Surrenders. Does not fill a needed role.
IMPACT: NEARLY NONE

Skyfire Class Heavy Cruiser: It looks really cool, even w/out cloaking.  I like the improved cargo most.  But in the end, it shares a room with Resolutes, and there is only one bed.
IMPACT: MINOR

Valiant Wind Storm Carrier and Valiant Wind B Class Carrier: Look, cheaper versions of ships that this team can't afford to arm which has nothing to do with it's hull cost.  The only purpose I can imagine this ship fulfilling is as a medium carrier when paired with a fighter-builder who does not have anything similar.  With the new stuff, that really only leaves the Rebels.  And even then only when paired with the new Red Wind.  But it really seems like a lot of effort for minimal gain.
IMPACT: MINOR

DETH SPECULA ARMOURED FRIGATE and DETH SPECULA HEAVY FRIGATE:  Let's go straight to the Heavy model.  I thought the tube/beam switch was a print error at first.  Then I got kinda excited.  I have personally complained that the Birds have few good options against something as simple to create and dispatch as a Patriot, Super Star Carrier, or Diplomacy.  And good players don't build any of those ships.  But after much consideration, there really is only one circumstance for which I would want this over a Resolute.  I am under attack early by an endless stream of Rebel Patriots (not Colonial) and I can't afford Dark Wings. There may be a few other corner cases like this due to some of the new mods, but probably not many.  If this ship is to get built by good players, it needs a mineral cost that is different from the Resolute.  It can even be higher than it is, just different.  Or it must be much more massive.  I know that the purpose is to get players to diversify, and I completely agree.  But it is hard to compete with Resolutes here.  It would have to have an extreme advantage to make me part with my advanced cloak, great mine sweeping, nice cargo and huge fuel tank.  Once the combat advantage and associated increase in costs are considered, you usually want Dark Wings.  This road is a dead end unless they get that recloaking intercept model.
IMPACT: MINOR

Red Wind Storm Carrier: Very interesting idea.  This ship has the potential to make the Birds useful in team games where they currently are not very.  It also adds lots of potential with any fighter ally, which I suppose is the point.  They still don't have a cloaking fighter carrier that can fight, but this one adds an interesting boost for allies, especially Colonial and Robot who have minefield advantages.  Also, it can kill those pesky new squadron ships.  The Birds may need a few of these if their neighbors are Empire or Crystal.
IMPACT: MEDIUM and also I have no idea!

Enlighten Class Research Vessel:  This is exactly the kind of ship the Birds needed.  Good call on the part of the developers.  Without this, there has been little need to ever build anything but SDSFs with Stardrives if you could not afford the 600 mc cost off the top for two transwarp engines.  Swifties are good, but still limited.  This ship changes that.  And at the same time, it has a REALLY GOOD effect for a team perennially short on cash.  Humanoid planets become prime starbase locations alongside Ghipsoidals.
IMPACT: MAJOR

Diplomatic Spies: This is a cute ability that fits in nicely with the Bird style.  Cool design that increases in potency in higher difficulty games.
IMPACT: MEDIUM

Ion Starbase Shield: Looks like the dev team was listening to the community on this one.  Not as good for the Birds as for any other team that gets it.  Much of my freight is done by perma-cloaked Resolutes.  Only useful on a base that can not produce a Resolute or Dark Wing for a build or has one of those new fancy educator ships (or an alchemy) in orbit.
IMPACT: MINOR

Starbase Money Transfer:  It has been awhile since I used Starbase Plus, but I recall using this ability every single turn.  If it does not require a friendly code (which interferes with a lot of starbase functions, I call this one dynamite.  Nothing like getting your cash to the front lines for free every turn.  I currently use a complicated supply line or a complicated fuel system when I can get HYP ships for this same function. This ability should have a tax placed upon it.
IMPACT: MAJOR

Starbase Fighter Sweeping: How peculiar that the Birds would get this.  It gives opponents a lot to lose if the Birds can take and defend even one planet in contested space, especially against the Crystals.  It also gives both the new Red Wind and the old one a nifty use - cloaking fighter carrier.  Or you can pipe the cash in paired with money transfer, but now your are looking at a lot of minerals on that planet you took.  And 60 fighters is a bit less than a Resolute with Disruptors  That's a lot to blow 6000 mc on for a race that can't afford it.
IMPACT: MEDIUM

Super Spy Command: This is another one the community had been clamoring for.  The Birds needed to be able to use Super Spy against starbases for something better than occasionally stealing some cash and maybe turning off minefields.  And this is a very powerful ability - if you can pull it off.  It still takes five ships to take complete control of a starbase.  Five had to survive minefields undamaged.  Five have to have fuel to stay in orbit cloaked until the Dark Wings get there, and so on.  This is not an easy feat. But it has the potential to remove the need to lose a Dark Wing every time you take a full starbase.  It is hard to pull off at 100%, and the Birds must already be in a commanding position to make that happen - which has always been the hard part with the Birds.  So you will usually be operating on a percentage.  It gives added uses for Swifties (and now Bright Hearts) that get in early.  They can not deal with a starbase the way a cloaked ship from any other cloaker can, but they can wait a few turns to (usually partially) enable a big brother.
IMPACT: MEDIUM

CONCLUSION: The Birds got a variety of potentially useful toys.  With the exception of the Enlighten Class Research Vessel, the useful ones all require some serious setup.  When compared to the other powerful ships from some of the other teams (Saber Class Shield Generator, Deth Specula Stealth modal Armored Ore Condenser, B222b, squadrons, Iron Lady Class Command Ship, Thor Class Heavy Frigate) and other abilities (Plunder, 2x beams, Energy Defense Shield) which just have abilities, the Birds have newly available tactics.  They are now even harder for noobs than before.  But then, I guess noobs don't have access to the toys anyway.

The dev team did a lot of things right by the Birds.  Nothing looks too overpowered.  Among the unnecessary/not useful stuff, they got exactly the kinds of tools I always thought they needed to be truly competitive,  And the flavor (except for the Enlightener) is retained. I'm excited to try them out...someday.  Sheesh, that stuff is expensive.  I sincerely hope Joshua and crew do not offer advantages for credit card payment.  I hate that business model.
2646 days, 2 hours, 19 minutes ago
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vepr
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Ok, here is my take on the new privateers.

Outrider class transport:  basically an outrider with 90 more cargo space.

Impact: None.  Outriders are useless, and there is never a need to build one.  Giving it a bit more cargo room does not make it more useful as even a MDSF has more room and outriders can't fight.

Little pest light escort:  Cheaper version of little pest with 1 engine.  Impact: None.  Little pests are essentially useless vessels, and now their towing ability has been taken away. 

Dwarfstar II transport:  a dwarfstar with 100 kt more cargo for a total of 320.  basically a cloaking mdsf that got a bit roomier.  Impact: Minor.  I never build dwarfstars since I see no need for a cloaking transporter. cloaking is only useful for a transporter if you want to hide your movements from the enemy. far easier and more useful is to tow a LDSF with a meteor and planet hop.  Now, if you give this one even one torpedo tube, THEN it becomes an awesome sweeper/minelayer.  without a tube....meh...will never build.

medium transport:  a bit lighter than an mdsf with a bit less room.  it's not like mdsfs are fuel guzzlers, and that one beam will not help you fight, except against other freighters.  but you are not going to raid with these anyway.  impact: minimal.

Skyfire class heavy cruiser:  a little heavier than a skyfire and more survivable.  but can't cloak which will always limit its use for the pirates.  i can see it be built under very specific circumstances when the pirates need a medium fighting ship, but holy crap, look at the development costs.   just looking at money, $2500!!!!  i would have to blow way more than half of all my available funds (and I have probably more than most based on my score) just to develop a marginally useful ship?  if it did not require this up front cost, i may build it SOMETIMES.  at this cost however, i doubt anyone will actually research and build these.

Red wind storm carrier:  interesting idea, and unlike the birds, the pirates can put this one to good use.  we don't need to outfit these with fighters, we take fighters from the big carriers we capture.  this ship will allow you to have the captured ship fight better, potentially outfighting the enemy you are facing whos ships you are stealing.  also, with two more fighter bays, some ships which loose to starbases a good fraction of the time like rushes and virgoes may now stand a better chance. i would definitely try these out.  impact: moderate.

The other things, like starbases sweep or lay mines are interesting, but very expensive to develop.  laying mines would be a good way for far flung pirate empires to fortify their outlying bases to delay an attack until the reinforcements get there, while mine sweeping would be useful against the robots with their huge minefields covering everything. 

Out of what i see from the other races, i very much like the ideas of enlighten vessels and things like ore condensers.  its about time we got something that can improve the environment we are handed, its just that they should be allowed for everyone, like the merlin.

The one ship that concerns me the most is the command ship, which allows other ships to move before the enemy.  once you start messing with the host order, which has been play tested and vetted over the years, you open up a possibility for all sorts of new exploits.  there needs to be more documentation on where exactly in the host order this will be inserted.  will intercept still work?  do these ships fight after they move before the opponent had a chance to move?  etc...  this one introduces a potentially very fundamental change into how the game works than a lot of the other ship designs.  that being said, this one could be VERY useful if captured by the pirates.  

tow it and other attack ships 160 ly into enemy territory.  enemy panics, starts laying fields but you move before he lays them. potentially, your entire fleet can cross and attack across 320 ly with impunity if the enemy did not have mines already in place the turn before.  very dangerous in the right hands.

i would trade all the pirate's new useless transports and the skyfire for the ability to build that one.

V


2646 days, 2 hours, 10 minutes ago
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xeye
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>Little pests are essentially useless vessels, and now their towing ability has been taken away.

it's pretty good sweeper you can build for PBP.
has more sense for race 5, cause 4 can just have sweeping ILL/VIC


2646 days, 1 hours, 9 minutes ago
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frogger1108
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I think that some of the suggested features will take a lot of time and playtesting.

The most sweeping change would be the already discussed Command Ship. In addition to the advantage this ship would give you against a minelaying enemy, imaging the potential if it is you who is doing the minelaying.  You can now move from your starting position and lay mines afterwards but before the other players move...

Laying unexpected minefields is of course already a strong tactic employing cloakers, but at least you have to get where you want to lay your field undetected. Employing a command ship, there is nothing you can do to prevent this, not even laying minefields of your own the same turn.

2645 days, 23 hours, 51 minutes ago
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jm
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Is there a list of all the bonuses?

I am not sure what to make of the 1/2 minehit Fascist Glory, with two engines.... I guess I might make a few with resource starved worlds?
2645 days, 23 hours, 43 minutes ago
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dtolman
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Is there a way to check if players are using these new powers in a game?

I run private games, and I'd like to make sure no one is using these. Otherwise I'll have to use the honor system kick players who get caught... which is not something I want to have to do.
2645 days, 23 hours, 36 minutes ago
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b a n e
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http://planets.nu/ships
2645 days, 23 hours, 4 minutes ago
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bondservant
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Crystals -- there are no new ships even worth even considering.  When I first heard that some new ships were to be made available, I was excited.  But no more - now that I have looked at the potential Crystal ship upgrades.  I was expecting something like in plist .. for example a "Saphire Class Battlecruiser" that would be halfway in cost, mass, tech & specs between the Emerald and the Diamond Flame (so something like 9 beams, 4 or 5 torpedo tubes, and about 300 cargo).

There is an intriguing Topaz ship that has a new and creative feature, but due to cargo size would rarely/never be built.  The new Medium Transport is better than a Medium Freighter and I would build them if available (2 beams and 180 cargo); in fact, I have enough starbase resources to actually upgrade/buy it today, but it is certainly not worth investment in building a starbase for it when it takes away resources that are better used later for a research upgrade.  Sky Garnet  with just one engine instead of two replaces the Opal, due to more beams and a little more cargo, but again not worth the investment when you can not then do any Research later.

Starbase minelaying is valuable and worth upgrading (since it includes laying webmines), but it will take me nearly a year from now to be able to do so.  That means it will likely take most other Crystal players from two to five years.  Therefore, over the next year, there will likely not be any Crystal Race players making any improvements to their Race.  Meanwhile, just like when Plist was introduced, the other VGAP Races were made stronger and better able to sweep webmines - making the Tholians (Crystals) one of the weakest Races and made to play much differently in order to achieve success.

I applaud the Nu creativity, but rather than all this -- I would rather have a new "Add On" Genre (like Explore and Melee) that allows for Starbase Mines/Minesweepiing/MC Transfer etc.  And perhaps another Genre that has an alternate ship list (after getting community input on balance).  Plus I see many of the players that I wanted to play with/against in the future leaving Nu Planets if the Nu future is not modified.

My initial excitement has dissipated ....

EDIT:  economics are critical for Crystals and even more torpedoes will be needed with other players having additional advantages, so I would think seriously about researching the "Improved Desert Habitation"; and it looks like I will have enough saved resources on my Starbase by this October to research it.  By then I should know enough to decide to do it or to wait until Spring 2013 to research Starbases Lay Minefields (or to research something new that comes out between now and then).
2645 days, 22 hours, 41 minutes ago
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vepr
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its not as good of a sweeper as you may think.  a far better choice would be to build a br4.  sure, you get one fewer beam, but for that you get gravitonic accelerators and ability to tow.  much better use for your limited ship slots.
2645 days, 22 hours, 19 minutes ago
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daniel payne
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I think the Fascist Thorn variants are too heavy with too much armament and cargo for 1 engine.  It's a sledgehammer solution to a needle-eye problem.  Beyond that I like the changes for Fascist.  Especially the condenser.  But why not just piggyback that onto a crappy ship to make it buildable?
2645 days, 21 hours, 53 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
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I'm actually at a conference (again... twice in 3 weeks) but looking over all the abilities I may play nothing but klingons henceforth. Wow.
Tech2 120 cargo glory! Recloak intercept! Ore generator! 50% shields + twice as fast beams! Double plunder!
Not saying it's unbalanced but just wow.... they were already my 2nd favorite race...
2645 days, 21 hours, 53 minutes ago
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dark'a'man
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ROBOTS

Iron Slave Class Tug - Minor
Upgrade to 2 engines gets a cheap tower. I don't see any use for it's original design and still don't see it for the upgrade. If I want to tow ships, I'll use the Cat's Paw: slightly more expensive but it comes with decent cargo space, 4 beams and 2 torp launchers.

Pawn B Class Baseship - Minor
By investing 1420KT Duranium I can save 200KT on each new one. So, on the eighth one, I get some discount. I never built 8 Pawns in a single game. And I didn't even mention the others investments on this one.

Cybernaut B Class Baseship - Minor
Never built one of these. After heavy investments, the savings are major. It even needs one engine less (4 to 3). However, I don't see any use for this ship.

Sage Class Repair Ship - ???
I don't know how to achieve this. It's not available on my homeworld. So I cannot tell wether the investments will be worth it. To be updated ...

Ion Starbase Shield - Major
Robots assemble lot's of fighters in static ships around their bases and they build more than average ships with poor engines, an Ion shield will be worth the investment.

Starbase Money Transfer - Major
As Robots need lots of cash to build our mines, transferring it to the fronts comes in very handy. It largely reduces time management and fuel consumption. It's ridiculously expensive, but I guess every upgrade will be available forever.

Starbase mine sweeping - Major (Minor when not able to sweep webs)
Robots don't have any ship to do decent mine sweeping and they suffer a lot from Crystal webmines, sweeping mines by starbases will be worth a lot. IF it can sweep webmines!

Star Cluster Radiation Immunity - ???
As I didn't play in any game with Star Clusters, I'm not able to give my opinion on this one.

Overall, I think the advantages for the Robots are a bit poor. An existing problem of the Robots are the low number of beams on the ships. There is no upgrade that corrects this. Starbase mine sweeping could be an option if it sweeps web mines.
2645 days, 21 hours, 32 minutes ago
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jobo
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Just noticed that the klingons just got unlimited money - 2.5x plunder is twinkable like this

Beam down 4.000 MC and 1 clan on unowned planet, set your ship mission to pillage the same turn

result: pillage will give you 2.5x pillage = 10.000 MC, and the single clan will die.

next turn, transfer 6.000 MC to a friendly ship that flies the money elsewhere, and beam down the 4,000 MC +1 clan and pillage again :)

So a net gain of 6K MC each turn for each planet that you do this on.
2645 days, 21 hours, 5 minutes ago
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seveiht
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haha, nice jobo.
and if they decide plunder doesn't work on yourself, well you can always make friends :P
2645 days, 20 hours, 58 minutes ago
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daniel payne
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Ok.  That seems like a no-go then.  Good thing they thought that one through.

How can the spirit of Plunder be made into an ability that can actually be implemented?


2645 days, 20 hours, 51 minutes ago
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seveiht
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Actually my guess is that it does not multiply the surface MCs by 2.5.

but instead it multiplies :
"Fascist ships with beam weapons may plunder natives and colonists for money and supplies (1 MC and 1 supply per 10000 colonists or natives), killing them in the process."

Although the way this is written implies that all the natives and colonists you pillage are killed :P
2645 days, 20 hours, 41 minutes ago
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donaldworrell
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where are you guys getting all this information?  I can not find it.
2645 days, 20 hours, 38 minutes ago
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seveiht
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http://planets.nu/ships
2645 days, 19 hours, 26 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
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Nice catch Jobo! I never wanted a real economy anyways. Show me the money! :P

I've looked over everything and in my global estimate the borg are still the strongest race but they have much more competition with all these additions. Of course the playtests will determine everything. 

I want to see a colonial virgo vs. a vicky with it's shields boosted and double guns. 
Traditionally a super carrier vs. a battleships is ~40 fighters. 3 guns are roughly a match for 1 bay.
My guess is the virgo would lose 100+ fighters taking down 1 vicky and probably be utterly hobbled. I have to see it play out, but the virgo is effectively fighting with 2 bays. It will probably still win getting in close the guns will likely fire on the hull.
Still at ~100 fighters per vicky you're looking at 400 tritanium and 300 moly just to take out a battleship. Really, really non trivial costs. Coupled to the re-cloak intercept the colonies in particular will have a rough ride with the klingons now. Leave your patriots at home. 
In fact I want to see the difference between a klingon controlled gorbie and a fed controlled gorbie. Lots of possibilities.... Someone should set up some sims... wish I had more time. Still have to play my damn turns!
2645 days, 19 hours, 5 minutes ago
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joshua
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We're preparing a lot more communication right now. But I wanted to jump in real quick and note that as I was reading this I noted a few small data errors which have been corrected and are now listed on the http://planets.nu/ships docs:

1) The crystal documentation was missing their new key economic upgrade: Improved desert habitation

2) Clarification on the Sage repair ship: It only repairs damage, not crew. There is a new Repair Ship mission. 

3) 4 new ship hulls were missing in the original post (corrected yesterday): Outrider, Saurian, Saurian, Mig

4) Clarification on the fascist plunder. It does not multiply existing megacredits, it kills natives and colonists to make megacredits just like now. Only you get a higher return than the existing pillage planet. So if you are going for an early rush, you could seriously consider sacrificing your nearby natives for a big money boost.  

Its important that how this works is understood better too, and we'll be explaining that in great detail very soon. But these upgrades are bought once from your Officer homeworld (outside of the game) using resources that have nothing to do with in-game play. Once you have them they can be used in your games.  

BUT: All advantages are limited by the Advantage Point Cap of 450 points, so while there are many advantages available, no player will be able to have all these advantages in the same game. For example, the Borg start with 440 default advantage points, so if they want to add the B222b chunneler, which has an advantage value of 60 they would need to give up 50 advantage points to be able to use this ship. This could be done by removing the "Large Minefields Option" (30 adv) and disabling the Annihilation battleship (40 adv). So they have to give something up to get something. It works in similar ways for all races. The fascist/birds can add a few things before having to give anything up.  



2645 days, 19 hours, 3 minutes ago
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xeye
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>I want to see a colonial virgo vs. a vicky with it's shields boosted and double guns. 
Traditionally a super carrier vs. a battleships is ~40 fighters. 3 guns are roughly a match for 1 bay.
My guess is the virgo would lose 100+ fighters taking down 1 vicky and probably be utterly hobbled. I have to see it play out, but the virgo is effectively fighting with 2 bays. It will probably still win getting in close the guns will likely fire on the hull.

if we're sticking to the current shiplist and mechanics, just prohibit rich and normal universes, it would be enough to boost every race with mineral cheap ships. Fighter races will have to use massive logistics, alchemy etc, they will be more vulnerable to cloakers and stuff and you'll seldom see a fight with 5 Rush ships in one place.

if we're free with server side changes, the answer is already there in phost/plist approach. There're even number of effective technics.
like klingons may have beam recharge bonus depending on beam killpower, so if you invest resources into top beams, you may expect 3x bonus for shooting fighters off. (actually it's logical for every race to have recharge bonus -- it will add sense to the whole beam levels range, but Klingons should be faved there)

another approach is to give a good cloaking raider ship to Klingons. something like Resolute. and add 2 torp tubes to Vic.

2645 days, 17 hours, 57 minutes ago
View seveiht's profile
seveiht
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@bondservant.

Have you considered how effective the topaz squadron (and the empire equivalent) would be at killing fighters?  Since only 1 beam is lost on each pass then effectively in 1 turn you kill 10+8+6+4+2=30 fighters for a relatively inexpensive ship.

Edit: I am assuming that when it says it wings around for another pass that this will happen in the same turn.

2645 days, 17 hours, 23 minutes ago
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jomamasfat
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Just to be clear, there will still be games where these changes aren't being used, right?
2645 days, 17 hours, 20 minutes ago
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joshua
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YES.
2645 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes ago
View seveiht's profile
seveiht
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Ok, lets look at the rebels.  Now according to the stats they appear to be low and should have a boost, although not to the level that other races get.

First off, in perusing the other races' abilities the falcon is hit quite hard since a number of the other races abilities give economic advantages by shunting cash around.  And the borg have yet another method of chunneling ;)

So right off this hurts the rebels.

Taurus class transport : Impact: Negligible
A lighter ship than the scout, single engine and decreased cargo.  costs half the tritanium.
Somehow I feel this ship should be the scout and the other the transport?  Anyhow I doubt I would ever build this ship.  It is effectively an overpriced falcon with a slightly higher mass that can't hyperjump.

Guardian C Class Destroyer : Impact: Moderate
Boosts the mass of this torp ship so it can fair better in combat, the additional cargo means it has more of a staying power in combat too.  I may build some of these ships.

Heavy Armored Transport : Impact: Minor to Moderate
At first i overlooked this ship and then i saw the cargo capacity of 520, and a low cost in minerals.  With 2 engines it can also tow.  In games with radiation, it has a nice feature of the radiation shielding.  But having never played those games I am unsure of the total impact.  Due to lack of torpedos I think I would still favour the tranquility over this ship.  But given low resources and lack of torpedo tech at a starbase I would consider building this ship if i'm lacking duranium.

Guardian B Class Destroyer: Impact : Minor
Decreased cost, and increased cargo over the old model.  Due to its continued low mass, I doubt I would build this ship and would favour model C over this one.

Sage Class Repair Ship : Impact: Moderate
This ship gives the ability to repair ships(rush) away from the starbase.  The rush has a large cargo hold that can accommodate supplies for repairs, but this ship would supplement this when substantial damage is accumulated.  I don't think I would build many of these ships, but may use them on a case by case basis.

Iron Lady Class Command Ship : Impact : Moderate to High
This ship will actually give the rebels some much needed protection against the privateers.  Although fairly flimsy in its protection.  Through strategic use it would also be useful moving into crystal space by avoiding sudden appearances of those webs we hate so much.  Cargo is still low so it makes for an inneffective mine layer.   Overall, used correctly in very specific instances this ship can be quite powerful.  Of course this will depend specifically on where the movement occurs in the host order.   It is another ship that could be put up for trade to other races.

Ion Starbase Shield: Impact : standard for all races

No impact over all, except birds get hit the most since they can move through ionstorms with advanced cloaks.  This removes the loss of protection due to such attacks.

Starbase MineLaying: Impact : Moderate

Could potentially set up starbases in remote locations near enemy territory with falcons to lay mines which inhibit enemy economies.  I'll give it a moderate impact, but is more towards low-moderate.  Home defense is minimal since the rebels should have many tranquilities, however it does free those tranquilities for other duties.

Starbase Mine Sweeping: Impact : Moderate

Depends on whether the starbases can sweep webs.  In this case, the rebels get some aid with their lack of sweeping power via starbases.  using falcons as advancing into crystal territory, starbases can be set up to stabilize the region and sweep.  This would require a substantial commitment of cash reserves to upgrade beam technology, and may be better spent on counter mines.   As a defense it gives the rebels a much needed defense against offensive web advances.  The low cost in advancement point may certainly assure that I would take this one.

Energy Defense Field : Impact : Moderate - High

This is a rather interesting ability, obviously inspired by empire strikes back.  Rebel players who choose this ability will have to choose between building a starbase or maintaining havens for advances.  In a planet count game this gives a significant advantage to the rebels who can maintain an annoying habit of requiring the enemy to drag out clans across the cluster.  The lizards, fascists and empire can easily foil this via their race abilities and the super star destroyer.  However with significant population, and by mining 50 fuel per turn, the rebels can maintain a haven within enemy space indefinately.  Falcons can hyperjump in even while the enemy blockades the planet.   However, building a starbase will apparantly nullify this ability and result in the demise of the planet.
This is best used to protect planets that are being set up to supply the rebel fleet in advance of its progression.
It is also useful to protect outer colonies against borg excursions.

Overall I don't see anything overtly game breaking here.  And what the rebels gain is balanced by the economic advantages some of the other races gain. 




2645 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes ago
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donaldworrell
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I am not trying to be difficult but I just do not understand the new changes.


Is there some where I can go to to read up on it ?  just the list on play.planet.nu/ships does not help much.
2645 days, 14 hours, 12 minutes ago
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seveiht
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thats pretty much all i'm going by right now
2645 days, 11 hours, 8 minutes ago
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turssi
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Excellent documentation is being created in this thread. Thanks guys. And boo for Joshua because of bad documentation & communication.

Docs done so far:

[  ] Feds
[  ] Lizards
[X] Birds
[  ] Fascists
[X] Privateers
[X] Cyborgs
[X] Crystals
[  ] Evils
[X] Robots
[X] Rebels
[X] Colonies 

[  ] New Site GUI

So 7/12 already done!!!

I hope that planets.org wiki site can host the contents of this thread as well.
2645 days, 10 hours, 58 minutes ago
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turssi
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@donaldworrel: From Joshua's post I understand that nothing has changed so far, so you can relax.

He will introduce the option to mod your race with the "Adv" advance points.

This way you could remove the ability to build Gorbies with the EE, gaining 60 Adv points. Then you could spend those 60 points on Ion Starbase Shield (10 points),  Starbase Mine Sweeping (20 points) and Starbase Fighter Sweeping (30 points).

The modding is done via your profile and is done separately for each race. It then affects all your running Nu games.

It will not affect your Classic Planets style games. I expect all the current games to be classic games and that's why I say: Relax.

It's a long term change for aumenting player adherence and generated income. They probably will keep working the details for the foreseen future (or as long as the business has a profitable outlook).
2645 days, 8 hours, 44 minutes ago
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joshua
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Clarification Turssi: 

The abilities you have active at the point you join a game are the ones you will have throughout that entire game. (you have to bring that technology to the sector) You may change your active abilities later on, but they will not affect the games in progress.  

One thing that has not been decided yet, that I would like your (the community) input on is whether the configuration of the players who joined the game should be visible or not. Or (as it is now) just all the abilities they "might" have being visible from their homeworlds.  

@Xeye, can you point me at that plist documentation for the beam weapons? I was trying to use established add-ons and ship designs when possible for the new features. That beam weapon thing sounds exactly like what I was aiming for with the 2X beam weapon charging for Fascist. 


2645 days, 8 hours, 21 minutes ago
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xeye
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@joshua
>can you point me at that plist documentation for the beam weapons? I was trying to use established add-ons and ship designs when possible for the new features. That beam weapon thing sounds exactly like what I was aiming for with the 2X beam weapon charging for Fascist.

General plist stuff:
http://torstatus.blutmagie.de/~h3s/vagabond/PList2/plist2.html
Phost formulas to understand pconfig combat params:
http://phost.de/phost4doc/formulas.html#combat --

(Plist ver.3 uses Experience system, but imho, it's not well designed comparing to Glist, see further)

Actually Plist does not fave just Klingons in term of recharge bonus. Recharge bonus there is the same for every race (but as I said, the beam level noticable affects final recharge rate)

However, there's another derivative Phost/Plist shiplist: Glist, it based on experience system of Phost 4.0, completely reworked hulls (the goal was to make races more distinct, more "Tim" comparing to Plist, where all races are very balanced maybe even too balanced so there's not so much difference between them, the shiplist was designed for experienced players and uses every turn/every combat fuel drain feature for every ship, depending on mass, thus making strategy and fuel logistics very important)

So, Glist faves Klingons base recharge rate as well as beam level bonus.

  BeamHitBonus                    = 10,10,10,15,10,10,10,10,10,10,10
  BeamRechargeRate                = 4,4,4,6,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
  BeamRechargeBonus               = 3,3,3,6,3,3,3,3,3,3,3

2645 days, 7 hours, 48 minutes ago
View frogger1108's profile
frogger1108
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What I'm still unsure about is the resource model which is going to be used to unlock these features ?

Can anybody play around with the points and customize his race or do you need to have played the specific race for an amount of time ? If it's the later, how long is this going to take ?

I like planets because it's an even playing field for everybody (baring bad luck :) and what really counts is experience in the race you're playing. I wouldn't enjoy playing against opponents who have "better" abilities and ships simply because they have played more games.

2645 days, 0 hours, 58 minutes ago
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kedalion
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
@Joshua
The abilities should be visible otherwise the game becomes too unpredictable and random. Without extensive experience it might be near impossible to figure out  during the game. And then even if a player figures out the configuration his opponents uses, if he resigns any replacement has to start from scratch. 

You will also have to decide on a rule for resigning and joining running games. The settings should stay locked in for the particular race/player slot even if the player drops and another player joins in. Otherwise you get the same problem of unpredictable races and suddenly having a completely different opponent while your attack was possibly aiming at a specific weak spot. 
2645 days, 0 hours, 39 minutes ago
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bondservant
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
@ seveiht -- I agree that the new Topaz would be nice for wiping out fighters.  And for defeating low-end torpedo ships.  And for taking out some planets without starbases.  The new Topaz is creative and could be fun to have.  But since it has no torpedoe tubes to lay webmines, then it would take a ship slot away from a cheap Opal, Ruby, or the new Sky Garnet that all have torpedo tubes and therefore I could not afford to build many of these ships and still have the webbing strategy that is important for a Crystal.  And it has very low cargo, so I could not replace for a freighter either.  If there was a mod that had unlimited ships - then it would be a fantastic ship to have.  It might also be a nice ship to have in a Melee game too since that mod requires a different Crystal strategy -- I am starting to think about that.

@ Regarding several players' notes on the issue of balance, I would hope that we would have a better game when it is all said and done.  If done correctly, I agree that not only can the new Nu ships/abilities be fun for those that decide to not play the "vanilla" games, they can eventually add to more balance in our game -- because let's face it, the original configuration of Nu Planets is not balanced.  This is a known fact and not even worth discussing, as DM mentions in his initial post in this thread.  The key is rolling out these features and doing it correctly to achieve more of a long-term balance.  There is a long way to go for this -- it is a huge challenge. So I agree that community feedback to Nu can help in this matter (to at least a degree).  So the more people that can comment on this thread -- the better.

With that said, it is important to realize that the way it is being set up, no player will be able to have everything -- there is a maximum of 450 points that any Race can have.  There are so many factors in playing Nu Planets, that it is easy to lose perspective.  But when I take a step back, I realize that there are many "random" factors in Nu Planets that will have far more of an impact on my game than whether a Race has one or two more ships/abilities -- like 8M Insectoid natives next to my HW that are Unity instead of Feudal.  Or whether or not my neighbor decides to quit early on -- giving me a chance to easily take his planets.  Those factors are HUGE -- and all new ships/abilities pale in comparison.  In fact, if done correctly (which is going to be the real challenge), then once all players have these new ships/abilities, then the game will actually be more balanced - since right now some Races are truly easier for a player to win than other Races.  And until most people have points to spend (which looks like could be years), then even if one person has spent points and others have not, then the "advantage" that player has will be minimal compared to these other random factors like the ones I just mentioned.

@ Joshua  --  Regarding the issue of research secrecy (or not), it would be good to show on a Nu player's profile what has been researched by that player.  But how they spend their points in any particular game should be hidden and not revealed.  Of course, until a player has researched more than his 450 points allow, then you can safely assume that he will be using all of his abilities shown on his profile when he starts a new game (that is not a "vanilla" game).  But how that player decides to spend his 450 points if he has more than 450 points to spend, it should remain a mystery on exactly how he decided to spend his points for each of the games he can spend them.
2645 days, 0 hours, 14 minutes ago
View seveiht's profile
seveiht
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@bondservant  I agree, more torp ships would generally be preferable. But since the tech of the ship is low....I'm considering whether it may be worthwhile to set up a low tech starbase without torp tech that would be dedicated to simply build these.

In the case of the empire(which has its mig squadrons at tech 1)  setting up starbases effectively doubles their usefulness.  They get the starbase free fighters + a squadron each turn.

I'm going to let someone else write the empire up, i've only played them once in a very very short game.  Everyone's homeworld was right next to each other.

edit : not migs, gunboats ;)

edit 2 : The more i think about it, you could use a couple of the topaz squadrons in place of a thunder-diamond combo.  Throw up 2 or 3 topaz in front of the thunder and unless the enemy carrier has 200+ fighters on board you are sitting pretty.  Even throwing 4 or 5 out front would still be less than the cost of a thunder.  Although i'd have to consider the pbps ;) but certainly very good for taking out heavily defended planets.
2644 days, 13 hours, 49 minutes ago
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turssi
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I'll give a go at the EE. Anyone with more insight, please complete:

Ru25 Gunboats: Can consume 20 fighters or torps from an attacking ship before dying. Cost half of an SSF. Similar to the Crystal Squardon ship. Good build at low tech starbases. Throw these in front of EE medium carriers.Value 10 Adv points. Impact: Medium

Ru30 Gunboats: Can consume 30 fighters or torps from an attacking ship before dying. Cost half of an SSF. Similar to the Crystal Squardon ship. Good build at low tech starbases. Throw these in front of EE medium carriers. Value 25 Adv points. Impact: Medium

Mig Class Transport: More tech1 ships for the EE to use. This one comes with 140 cargo. Build this instead of SDSF. Value 0 Adv points. Impact: Minor

Moscow Class Star Destroyer: A simple update to the old Moscow. This one has half the engines and double the bays. I'd probably build just this one, if a Moscow must be built. Value 0 Adv points. Impact: Minor

SSC2: Now with even more fuel and cargo and for less Molybdenum. A must have, makes a good ship even better. Throw in a few squadron ships in front to help in fights. Value 10 Adv points. Impact: Minor

SSCr2: Tries to imitate the Gorbie by adding enough mass to breach the 320kt limit, one more engine and one more fighter bay. Would be interesting to see what happens against a cloaked intercepting Darkwing in a fight. Impact: Minor

So a lot of small improvement to the ship list. Should make them a little bit stronger, but nothing extreme.

Ion Starbase Shield: Good idea for protecting Probes and freighters. EE should have a SB at nearly all planets, so in practice this will shield the whole imperium against Ion Storms. Great! Value: 10 Adv points. Impact: Medium

Starbase Mine Sweeping: Sweeping mines seems ok, but why invest in beams when you got free fighters? Value: 20 Adv points. Impact: Minor

Starbase Fighter Sweeping: Now we're talking! It will be difficult to lay mines against the EE with this one active. The free fighters will sweep within 100ly radius. Value: 30 Adv points. Impact: Medium

Destroy Planet: Ok, so a fully fueled all tech10 Gorbie must spend 2 turns within 10ly to destroy a planet and all ships inside the gravity field. Could be something worth trying with a Crystal ally? Without web mine fields, the enemy ships will just flee. Good for defending against an invading force low on fuel. Value: 30 Adv points. Impact: Medium

Debris Disk Defence: On by default. Helps to fly large ships through those debris fields generated by the Destroy Planet attack. Value: 10 Adv points. Impact: Minor

Nothing too special in the advantages. But EE might gain more here as well, as they start with 370 points and can spend 80 points before reaching the 450 point limit.

I'd buy everything but one advantage and scrap the Lay 150ly Ability. So Ru25+SSC2+SSCr2+Ion Defence+SB fighter sweep+Destroy Planet minus 150ly mine fields. That would put me at 440 Adv points spent.

When can I try this out?
2643 days, 5 hours, 5 minutes ago
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metadan
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All right, I'll take a stab at the Fascists, and hope I don't step on any toes in doing so.  I'm willing to bet this is the most improved class, having started at the bottom of the barrel with 335 base Adv points.  I will confess my bias toward the Tao of Klingon at the outset, so please forgive me if it shows in my analysis.  Also, I'm having trouble assigning value to some upgrades, so I apologize for waffling on some ratings as well.

I'll keep to the format and start with the ships:
D7b Painmaker Class Cruiser: A tech 2, Half-Glory device (1/2 minehit). No word on the collateral damage.  It could be used to protect an early, understocked SB from random cloakers, many of which would blow up with two of these, but the costs of the minerals and build slots don't seem worth it to me.  You could get creative, but for 35 Adv points, I don't see this getting chosen very often. Impact: Minor

Little Pest Light Escort:
Been discussed. One engine, tiny costs, six beams.  Silly most of the time, may have some merit with enhanced beam speed and tiny manufacturing costs. 0 Adv points means once researched you throw it on your shiplist for the hell of it. Impact: Minor

Armored Ore Condenser:  Raises mineral density by 5% per turn for all minerals up to 50%. Never again will you lament finding a planet with 14,000kt of neutronium at a 2% extraction rate. Everyone will want to trade for one of these.  At a cost of 10 Adv points, this will be on almost everyone's list. Impact: Moderate

Medium Transport:
One engine, two beams 180kt cargo.  I guess you could use it to gain few extra supplies when you self-pillage a nearby planet.  0 Adv, so I guess you research it once you've got nothing better to do. Impact: Minor

D3 Thorn Class Cruiser:
One engine, 130mass, 130kt cargo, Three beams, Five Tubes.  I'm going to echo daniel payne's assessment and say it might be a little over-done. It's too much weight and cargo (30% more than the D7!) and firepower for a one-engine cloaker.  If it stays as-is, I'd be pretty pretty tempted to include it if there wasn't so much other great stuff on offer. 20 Adv points. Impact: Moderate

D3 Thorn Class Frigate: One engine, 110mass, 40 cargo, Three beams, five tubes.  More realistic than above.  A little less firepower than the Rebel's New guardian C, but ours cloaks!  10 Adv points, so only 5 if you swap out the (otherwise useless) original thorn. Impact: Minor/Moderate
[Note to devs: If it were my call, I'd split the differences on the two new Thorns right down the middle and just offer the result.]

Deth Specula Armored Frigate: 15 Adv points (5 for a straight swap) buys you a 35% heavier ship with a little bigger fuel tank and cargo hold than the original (153kt/180/50 vs. 113/140/35). Could possibly make it worth building if the extra mass lets it get off a few more shots, but it's vastly overshadowed by its badass brother below. Impact: Minor

D19c Nefarious Class Destroyer: It's the same as the D19b, but only requires one engine.  With this, you could afford to give your glories intercept capabilities without sacrificing an extra 300mc and 35kt of Moly (or a lot of neutronium on your Quantum-driven D19b's).  Not worth the 50 adv points as an addition to your fleet, but unquestionably worth the 15 for a swap! (D19b is worth 35). Impact: Moderately Major

Death Specula Stealth: Outfitted like the "Armored" variant, sports a "Recloak Intercept" function, the description of which is a little ambiguous, reading: "Recloak Intercept - If undamaged, will recloak immediately after a cloak intercept attack."  The way I read it, it attacks only its intercept target and recloaks immediately thereafter, whether or not there are other ships at the same location, but it could theoretically mean that it recloaks after the whole combat sequence - if primary enemy remains set, why would it NOT continue attacking?  If the latter, I don't see too much of a point, which is why I tend to think the former.  This is pretty huge, but maybe not as massive or overpowered as it might seem at first glance. No freighter or other little ship would ever be safe, as it could attack without fear of reprisals, regardless of other ships in defensive positions.  But any of the other important ships which are commonly used to tow bigger ships into battle (Fireclouds, Cobols, MCBRs etc) could be outfitted with mark VII tubes and surely take out the shields and cause a little damage, thereby preventing the recloak.  And of course, Lokis work against Fascist cloakers - in the interest of balance, I would insist that the Tachyon pulse prevents the recloak, even if the Loki was itself the target of the attack and was destroyed without damaging the Stealth. Also, in a weird way, the feature ensures that it only has one target per turn.  Of course, at the end of the day, it's a light ship that won't stand up to a determined invader or take out starbase defenses, so it won't be singlehandedly winning any wars.  All in all, the Stealth is a precision surgical tool, built with purpose and well-suited to the spirit of the Fascists.  Also, it has a cool name. ;) 40 Adv points, net 30 for a swap.  Impact: Major (Minor if the whole battle sequence is carried out before recloaking)

Saber Class Shield Generator: Another one whose full meaning is unclear, the description reads: "Shield Generator - Will provide an additional 25% shield and invoke a 50% engine shield generator in any ship at its location (up two 2 Sabers at the same time)." Does "any ship at its location" include enemy ships (if so, what's the point)?  What about Allied ships?  How does it operate when placed in the hands of an ally?  It's 25% shield, plus 50% ESB, or do they multiply?  We'd need to see the formulae.  Too much is still unclear, but it's safe to say that if it operates as one would expect, it could provide a lot of protection to a decent fleet at a fairly minimal cost.  We definitely need to see some playtesting or have a simulator set up in order to gauge its true value. I'm imagining a perfect storm of ally conditions, with a Gorbie or two in Lizard hands, protected by a pair of these Sabers -- that abominable monstrosity would never die!  For this reason, I think it may be more balanced to only allow one Sheild Generator at a time, but it's only a guess, and I would have to see the overall effectiveness.  At 60 Adv points, it'll cost you, but the cost is most likely justified. Impact: Major (in any case)

And the new race Tech:
Plunder Planet: Increases the supplies and megacredits earned from Pillage Planet by 2.5X.  Poorly worded, but we can assume that means the base value of the pillage x 2.5, not an additional 2.5x (for a total of 3.5x).  Self-explanatory, and makes self-pillaging all the more worthwhile.  At this rate, it might finally settle the Pillage vs. Glory against Amorphous natives debate (unless you were flush with cash and really needed the supplies). Adv: 40. Impact: Moderate to Major

2X Faster Beams:
Beam weapons are tuned to fire two times faster than normal.  In my view, this is the eminent feature of the whole race.  It makes the Fascists truly live up to their billing, but I fear that it will be perceived as overpowered, and I would be hard pressed to argue.  Under current mechanics (which I would like to see altered, but I'll save that for another post), you could send an Ill Wind with 10 x-rays against a starbase or solitary carrier and soak up a whole lot of fighters for an insanely low cost before sending in a Vicky to mop up.  Maybe the Valiant Wind becomes at least minorly useful by outbeaming another low/mid-carrier?  A Heavy Blaster-equipped Merlin actually dishes some damage before falling, and ships like the Deth Spec Stealth become all the more menacing.  With this mod, maybe a Vicky is finally a match for a Dark Wing, or a T-Rex (in Lizard hands).  I would like to see sims of the heavies (Gorbies, biocides, Golems) controlled by Feds or Lizards, versus the same ship in the hands of the Fascists with tuned beams.  Because of the effectiveness vs. fighters, I think I would be more comfortable seeing the firing rate tuned down to 1.5x, with a corresponding increase in the damage/crew kill output.  That would maintain the overall effectiveness of the beams in most situations, but wouldn't drastically overpower Fascist controlled ships vs. fighters.  This type of advantage should have been in the original game, and by itself goes a good way towards balancing the entire race.  Adv: 50.  Impact: Major

Ion Starbase Sheild/Starbase Mine Laying/Starbase Mine Sweeping:
Typical of many races, they are exactly what their names suggest, and have already been analyzed. Adv: 10/30/20, respectively. Impact: Whatever you decide
[Note to Devs: Is there a minefield limit like there was in the old TimHost?  I saw the question asked, but I didn't see an answer.  If there is, I think that Starbase Mine Laying is going to be abused and the 500-minefield limit will be reached in no time, taking a good chunk of advantage from the Robots, and rendering the Crystals all but toothless.]

---
Overall, I think the Fascists get exactly what they need and the upgrades are all in keeping with the spirit of the race.  I especially like the fact that the racial abilities make full alliance with Fascist players a more attractive prospect; ships and ship abilities are trade-bait, racial abilities are alliance-bait.  It's something I feel is still missing for the Bird Men in particular, and the Evil Empire and Robots to a lesser extent.  I do think some values need a bit of tweaking in the interest of balance (Thorns, Sabre Sheild, Beams), but ultimately, it's up to the devs.  I think these changes will cause a rash of new signups for the race, and Fascist players will start to lose the sort of "low-threat priority" status we've enjoyed until now by being relatively ineffective.  Gone are the days of always seeing an open Fascist slot at the outset of games, heh.  I know I've already pre-imagined my preferred 450-point setup!

Sorry about the length; I guess if it goes into a wiki somewhere, my opinions can certainly be truncated.
2643 days, 1 hours, 41 minutes ago
View veldan's profile
veldan
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
As of now there is no minefield limit.
2642 days, 23 hours, 24 minutes ago
View bondservant's profile
bondservant
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Yes there is no minefield limit.  I agree with you metadan regarding not having the 500-minefield limit with Starbase Mine Laying.  In fact, if there were any regular VGAP games created now that put in a minefield limit, I would not play the Crystal or Robot race.  Truly competitive games that go beyond 100 turns have a large number of minefields.  Sweeping up old minefields to create new ones would be a micromanagement tactical nightmare.  I would just play another Race rather than spend a couple hours every turn figuring out what/where/how to minescoop old minefields.  In my team game, in the turn that ran just yesterday, I laid five new minefields -- the last one having i.d. #1358.

While I am writing this post, I will add to my former post using the Major-Minor format in this thread regarding my view of the Crystals' new abilities/ships.  There are two new must-haves of what is being currently offered for the Crystal Race.

Starbase MineLaying - 30:  Impact : Major
The impact of this new ability is Minor for players with just a few planets/starbases, but it is Major for those Crystal Commanders going for 200+ planets and a vast empire.  There are rarely enough ships to protect all of the planets adequately and also stage an attack - but adding the ability to lay web minefields at starbases would add a major defensive component to a Race that is already the most defensive-minded in the game.  This ability is being offered to many Races, but fits the Crystal Race the best.  Even more than Robots, who are more offensive-minded.  So would likely save my resources as long as it takes to have this advantage.

Improved Desert Habitation - 30:  Impact Minor+
I love the nature of this new advantage for the Crystal - it fits their nature and character well.  And it should have an overall positive impact on economics - which is important to better afford torpedoes for webmines.  So I would definitely want it as a must-have, but since it carries a penalty as well as a benefit, I would not want to spend the huge # of Tritanium required to acquire it until at least after getting Starbase MineLaying (which also requires more Tritanium than any other resource).

Starbase Mine Sweeping - 20:  Minor+
Definitely nice to have, especially for defensive-minded Crystal player.  But very expensive in Moly resource so might not ever acquire - or if I did it could be about five years from now.

Ion Starbase Shield - 10:  Minor
Nice to have - low # resources required so might be worth the investment at some point.

Web Mines - 150:  Definite Keeper.  
Don't know if the cost of 150 is trying to indicate that Web Mines are the best advantage in VGAP, as the price indicates, but it defines the Crystalline and of course would not play the Race without it.  Probably should have web mines valued at 100 or 120 points, especially if "Lay Large Minefields" are also required to lay big web minefields.
Lay Minefields - 70:  Definite Keeper.  
Not sure how large a web minefield would be allowed to be without having this.
Lay Large Minefields - 30:  Definite Keeper.
So it costs a total of 250 points for Crystals to be able to lay 150 ly web minefields?  Whew :).  If this advantage applied to only regular minefields and web minefields could already go up to 150 ly without spending these 30 points, then it might be worth not keeping if some new great advantage was created for the Crystals as an alternative.
Tow Capture - 30:  Keeper.  
No use draining the ships if you can not easily capture them, especially when on the offensive.  Although towing the drained ship to a nearby starbase is potentially viable if having these 30 points gave a great advantage elsewhere.
Desert Worlds - 10:  Keeper.  
Part and parcel of the Crystalline mystique.

Imperial Topaz Class Gunboats - 25:  Minor.  
Interesting and creative.  Would be fun to get at some point.  But no torpedo tube, so my low tech starbases would mostly be building Opals or Rubies or the new Sky Garnet Frigate instead.  Seems overpriced -- probably should have gone for about 15 points.
Topaz Class Gunboats - 10:  Minor.  
Decent alternative to Imperial Topaz; would research this instead of Imperial, assuming the 15 points saved are needed to spend on another advantage.
Medium Transport - 0:  Minor. 
Would likely build oftentimes instead of the MDSF.
Sky Garnet Class Frigate - 0:  Minor. 
When I had the tech, it would be very nice to build these instead of Opals.  And can't beat the cost in points.  Would likely be the first ship I would research.

Ruby Class Light Cruiser - 10:  Keeper.
It's low tech and low cost and two torpedo tubes with high cargo space make this a very valuable ship - definitely worth 15 points and far more valuable than the new Imperial Topaz Class Gunboat.
Emerald Class Battlecruiser - 20:  Keeper.  
One of the most versatile ships in the game - easily worth 25-30 points.  It's a steal at 20.  Would not play Crystal Race without it.
Onyx Class Frigate - 15:  Keeper.
Need to be able to heat up planets with Desert Worlds.  Even more important ship with Improved Desert Habitation.
Diamond Flame - 20 & Crystal Thunder 30.  Keepers.
These two pack a nice punch when they are used together.  For a total of 50 points, I would much rather have the Robot's Golem Baseship, but since that is not an option, then these two ships will do.  With Instrumentality at 30, probably should have valued the Crystal Thunder at 20 or 25.
2642 days, 22 hours, 39 minutes ago
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veldan
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Hey Bond, not intending to nit-pick too much, but why should the Crystal Thunder cost less than an instrumentality?  Considering the Thunder has all around better stats aside from fuel tank size?  The Thunder should cost slightly less than an Automa, considering the 80 cargo is the main limiting factor on the ship keeping it from being a true heavy carrier.  

In fact, I would have preferred a Thunder variant that had at least 120kt - 150kt of cargo space, instead of the other additional crystal ships, this would actually allow a CT to go toe to toe with most of the heavies out there, and have a chance.
2642 days, 22 hours, 33 minutes ago
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daniel payne
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Tech level, veldan.

At tech 6, it is stupid easy to get a new SB able to produce one.
2642 days, 22 hours, 33 minutes ago
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kedalion
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Yep, I agree. CT should rather have a bit more cargo space.
2642 days, 20 hours, 23 minutes ago
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bondservant
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I agree veldan that a Crystal ship variant that had a Crystal Thunder with 120-150kt of cargo space would have been a very nice and understandable option.  I always wondered how the Crystalline Engineers could design small and medium ships with the largest cargo space in the galaxy, but yet they did not know how to design their two big combat ships with anything but small cargo hulls (the smallest cargo hulls for big combat ships in the galaxy).  Quite inconsistent. 

Regarding why the CT should cost less points, daniel payne is correct -- tech level 6 instead of 10.  Hull Tech 6 is much easier to achieve prior to the ship limit for starbases; changing to tech 6 would triple the number of CTs I would build during the game (and I would build about 10 CTs by the ship limit instead of my 3-4 CT average now).  And yes it would be nice to move my CT long distances (right now a CT can travel 500 ly on a tank of fuel, versus 1100 ly travel on a tank for the Instrumentality). 

But all is good.  In fact, Plist did not do a very good job on the fleet options for the Crystals either.  So I am fine with the way it is now.
2642 days, 20 hours, 1 minutes ago
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seveiht
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you may want to confirm that starbase mine laying allows web mines being dropped.
In that case it definately makes it even more powerful.  And as a rebel player, may have to just give up altogether haha.  The web mines are difficult enough to deal with as a rebel, i think it would be better to focus a little on some of the deficiencies of the race rather than magnify an already powerful ability.
2642 days, 19 hours, 41 minutes ago
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bondservant
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I did confirm this seveiht -- on the first day of the rollout of the new website application, using the new chat function.  And the addon Starbase Plus does allow for webmine laying as well.  Actually, with all the new advantages that Races can have, they makes webmines much less of an advantage.  But starbase minelaying will be especially good for defense. So overall, using webs as an offensive weapon will be more difficult, but webs will be more useful as a defensive tool.
2642 days, 19 hours, 27 minutes ago
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daniel payne
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I have a concern that I have been mulling over.  

By closing gaps in each race's hull selection, there is an element of uniformity being created that is undesirable.

We WANT the Rebels to have no medium ships.  We WANT the Fascist ships to be peculiarly extra heavy.  We WANT the Robots to have no capital ships for 1 PBP.  We WANT the Empire to have no good minelayers.  And so on.  You take this away and the game loses something important.  I recommend the dev team being very careful in this respect.  Evening out the haves withe the have-nots is good.  Doing it by granting ships that do what the team lacked is not always a good solution.  Too much balance is a possibility. "Improvements" that reduce fun are always a big no-no.
2642 days, 19 hours, 23 minutes ago
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seveiht
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Do you know if starbase fighter sweeping does webmines?  or just regular mines?

That would be the real kicker.
2642 days, 19 hours, 20 minutes ago
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seveiht
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I agree with daniel.  I just started a post about the deficiencies in each race.  The idea being that we really should keep deficiencies in the races.  They should maintain their weaknesses.  The idea should be to balance them statistically in their ability to achieve victory.  Not to make them have an ability to deal with every situation equally. 

Instead you want them to be able to change the situation.
2642 days, 19 hours, 8 minutes ago
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bondservant
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I would expect beam weapons for mine sweeping would act the same, whether they are on ships or on a starbase.
2642 days, 18 hours, 54 minutes ago
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joshua
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Just some clarifications on the documentation:

1) D7b Glory - Can self destruct doing 1/2 mine hit to any ship at its location and 20% of a normal mine hit to any friendly ships.

2) Saber - Shield Generator - Will provide an additional 25% shields and invoke a 50% engine shield generator in any ship owned by the same player at its location (up two 2 Sabers at the same time) based on the engines of the boosted ship. - So at the start of combat this ship will get 25% shields per saber (up to 50%, like the Feds even after the ship has been damaged as long as the Saber is alive) and it will invoke an ESB in the ship it is affecting. So if there is a Vic at the same location with Transwarp drives it will fight as if it has an extra 150kt of hull mass (300 if there are two sabers).  

3) Deth Special Stealth Recloak Intercept - If undamaged, will recloak immediately and remove primary enemy after a cloak intercept attack only attacking the intercept target. (only fights the one its intercepting) 

4) Starbase fighter sweeping - Will not sweep webs

5) Starbase mine sweeping - Will sweep webs

6) Starbase mine laying - Is able to lay webs (if crystal) 

7) Lay Large Minefields is NOT required to lay 150ly web minefields as the crystalline. They can disable this and it will only affect regular mines.

The documentation is being updated to make these questions more clear.  










2642 days, 17 hours, 57 minutes ago
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daniel payne
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@Lay Large Mine Fields

So the Crystals effectively have 30 extra points because absolutely every player with any experience will gladly sell that one off for something else.
2642 days, 16 hours, 50 minutes ago
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lindybomber
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   I hardly ever lay mine fields with a radius over 100lys so this is one of the first things I'd give for any race other then the Bots.

  Two things I'd like to know;

1) when you choose an ungraded hull is the original hull removed from your list?
2) Most of the hulls Avd value is zero, does that mean you do not have to spend any points to upgrade?

Lindy
2642 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes ago
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vepr
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one way to balance out the torpedo races against the carriers would be to simply decrease the chance of a torp missing?  you don't even need to change it much, and it could be made as an expensive race upgrade.  Advanced torpedoes for example, 20% miss rate.  Super advanced torpedoes, 15% miss rate. Torpedo from hell (costs one of your kidneys), 10% miss rate, etc.  just a thought..

2642 days, 8 hours, 6 minutes ago
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frogger1108
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@chance of a torp missing
That would be a good example of a mandatory upgrade (which is a bad thing :)
A straight % dps upgrade for every ship is too good to pass up

What I'm really missing with all this upgrades and new techs is a good description of what this is intended to achieve. We see a lot of new ships, and percentages and points and so on, but what we need is a goal, all the other things are only means to achieve this end.

Daniel touched on this subject with his comments on uniformity which are right on, but this can be better discussed when you clearify what you want to end up with.

So for example take the Birdmen the goals look like this (judging from the new features).

Goal 1: Economy is too weak in comparison, need means to increase income
Goal 2: Strengthen the cloaker and espionage theme

For the Fascists is looks like this to me:
Goal 1: More firepower against carrier races
Goal 2: Strengthen the Glory device theme
Goal 3: Strengthen the economy
Goal 4: More firepower and strategic options for cloakers.

If you have a line of goals to follow, it's easier judging the means to achieve it.




2641 days, 9 hours, 22 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
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I personally think it is always dangerous to shore up a weakness in balance discussion, could be my years and years of D&D. It is generally better to increase a strength. 
Giving the crystals real fighting ships, say enhancing the cargo bay on their existing ships is a mistake.
Giving the borg a cloak detector is a mistake.
A cloaking super-carrier is a mistake.
I don't see anything a-priori game-breaking in the current crop of new NU modifications, although I would like to playtest them. Maybe we can get some high-ranking players to play a mock game?
2641 days, 7 hours, 44 minutes ago
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donaldworrell
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I am still confused.  Why not just create like a new version and have custum ship list and abilities and people who want to play those games can.   

I just can not firgure out how these new resourse's are going to impact a new basic game.    Does it mean that all games will use these new features ?
2641 days, 1 hours, 12 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
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Donald, the goal is for it to be an addon. An attempt to balance the races by the Nu developers and inject some additional fun into an old game. Completely optional, like stellar cartography.
The standard games are not going anywhere, this has been repeatedly said.
My only comment is that I want my square maps back for the standard games! But that is for another thread.
2641 days, 1 hours, 5 minutes ago
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vepr
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I would definitely be interested in trying out the new features in a test game.
2640 days, 20 hours, 22 minutes ago
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turssi
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Feds

Many existing ships may be de-activated, so you got some room for modding, even though they already start with a lowly 385 Adv score (450 still being the max).

Bohemian. 15 Adv points. Default on.
Eros. 15 Adv points. Default on.
Nebula. 20 Adv points. Default on.
Brynhild. 5 Adv points. Default on.
Missouri. 20 Adv points. Default on.
Loki. 40 Adv points. Default on.
Kittyhawk. 10 Adv points. Default on.
Nova. 40 Adv. points. Default on.

So just keep Missouri, Loki, Kittyhawk and Nova and you get down to 330 Adv points. Let's see if it is even possible to reach the max now.

Outrider with 130 cargo. 0 Adv points. Good first build at a poor SB.
One engine Vendettas. 0 Adv points. If you're under attack and desperate.
Banshee with 7 or 10 beams. 0/10 Adv points.
Arkham with cargo and fuel. 0/10 Adv points. I guess it could make sense. Run some simulations.
Diplomacy with more mass and cargo. 10 Adv. If you need to kill some low tech heavy mass ships.
A heavy/heavier Thor. 5/15 Adv. points. Run some simulations to see if it can hurt SB's and carriers now.

The problem of course is that you decide the mods before you know what ships you'll meet in the battle. Making all the new ships available comes with a cost of 45 Adv points. The Feds were the owners of the most versatile torp ship selection, and now even more so. Overkill? Somebody more experienced can aswer that.

Abilities include removing the 70% mining handicap (-40 Adv points), Ion Starbase Field (10 Adv points), Starbase Mine Sweeping (20 Adv points) and Starbase Money Transfer (40 Adv points).

Well, I got Outriders for transferring money (and now also small amounts of minerals) and lots of high beam ships for sweeping mines, so I'll take just no mining handicap with Ion Storm protection at a total cost of 50 Adv points.

This means that I got a net 15 Adv points to spend on the ships, with lots of flexibility. Now I just need to remember to keep that Kittyhawk activated, as it's my only carrier!!!
2640 days, 19 hours, 5 minutes ago
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turssi
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Lizards (Initial Adv points 430/450)

Default on ships:
Reptile. 5 Adv points.
LCC. 20 Adv points.
Eros. 15 Adv points.
Saurian. 10 Adv points.
Loki. 40 Adv points.
Madonnzila. 10 Adv points.
T-Rex. 20 Adv points.

I guess you could scrap the Loki if you're feeling confident.

Ship upgrades:
One engine Reptile. 5 Adv points. More mobile than the original cheap cloaking HISSSS! ship.
One engine Vendetta/one engine cloaking Vendetta. 0/5 Adv points. Cheaper in duranium and tritanium than the Reptile. More expensive in megacredits and molybdenum. Consult your previous games to decide which one suits your HISSSSSS!ing need better.
A heavy/heavier Saurian with more weapons. 10/20 Adv points.Thin Lizzy & Dragondejhi can comment on these.

I believe the best ship selection can only be reached by comparing previous games and some heavy Excel comparisons on fuel usage, cargo capacity and damage dealing/receiving.

They also got Ion Starbase Shield, Starbase Mine Sweeping and Starbase Mine Laying (10/20/30 Adv points respectively).

So depending on the ship selection you can pick one of those. Losing the large minefields would get you a second one, but make you more vulnerable against Robots/Crystals
2640 days, 18 hours, 59 minutes ago
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turssi
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@Joshua: How are those Race Abilities with a defined cost defined in Dur/Tri/Mol/MC going to work?
2640 days, 18 hours, 22 minutes ago
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johnqpublic
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Re: the Colonies -

The Scorpius variants worry me.  It's a big deal to a Colonial - get a popcorn Patriot, a Cobol (free fuel, mediocre minelayer, towing, light cargo), a Tranq (proper minelaying and cargo) or save up for a Virgo.

Now you can look at hull TL 6 and get a passable carrier choice as well.  Feels too generous.

I'd rather go for a Sage. a "Generation Ship" that converts supplies into clans (not too many), or a "Factory Ship" that produces supplies if there are clans in cargo, to reinforce the idea, with the Cobol and the Lady Royale, of the Colonials as the race that isn't dependent on planetary infrastructure.
2640 days, 14 hours, 45 minutes ago
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othrym
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Balance discussion ... I have now long thought about the new possibility which I like. They give the game new possibilities. If you like a special race you can give your gameplay new approaches - try a new way.

Then I asked myself three question, as most posts in this thread refer to the question "how does a race change if you buy this and that with adv points". And as my both most loved races are the privateers and the bird men i have interests on both sides of the initial adv points ladder.

1) What games have taken into acount for the creation of the ladder? Pre or post stellar cartography?

The question came up as when I did my first stellar cartography game i realised soon, that it boosts some races more than others. Some races get nice stuff like:
- Neb scanner (has no adv cost in the new system - the 5 points of the swift heard are for cloaking as the B41 Explorer costs nothing)
- Radiation shielding (also no adv cost - and very useful if you have it for your main ships => so special boost for the Klingon)
- Debris Disc Defence and Star Cluster Radiation Immunity (ok, 10 points in the new system, but nevertheless a update without "costs" to buy it)

So there was a first upgrade for some races - the "weak" (on the ladder) bird men and Klingon, the average Empire and the strong Cyborg. On the other hand cloakers got with the nebulas "permanent static" ion storm and races with low crew not passable radiation zones.

As I believe that most analysed games for the ladder are "classic" games, that new advantages have not been taken into account. And the reason is obvious: that advantages are only true advantages in stellar cartographys games.

But this maybe with the new (i really like it) advantage system a problem as now some races get in a stellar cartographys games two boosts and shift the system on the other side.

So with the new system i think it may be useful to review the stellar carthography games, say "ok, with the advantage system all have similar advantages; now we have to balance the SC-games new, so that in this game versions all get the same sum of advantage/disadvantage".

(and I really ask myself why a strong race like the cyborg got the Neb scanner ... but that is another discussion)

2) Second Question: The new system shall balance the races. When does this happen?

After playing a bit with the options, i realized that i get at the moment about 5 MC a day while I play to games in a race with good rank (one 1st rank, one 2nd rank). Not taking the minerals into account I need 180 days to build a starbase (but that gives me no advantages ...), 100 to 500 days to buy one ship design and 880 days to buy the 30 adv points technology of star base mine laying.

Well ok, I could start more games (at the moment i need in 40+turn games 2 to 4 hours ... so 18 hours a week with 2 games ...), but - if the rank is important for the amount of MC etc. you get - how many games must a newbie start as he first will have only low ranks to buy his first advantage within a year of game play?

How many years or games must a bird men newbie play to get his first 105 adv points to "come in balance" with a privateer?

If the result of the statistics is that the races has not been made even, shouldn't the new system make the races even from the beginning for a newbie?

At this point the new advantage system is a wonderful system for high experienced players to modify their game play or tactics. To try something new with a race they love.

But if the balance is a question, then the balance should be topic for beginners and not only veterans.

E.g. give every "race officier" on his homeworld enough basic resources to buy about (500 - Initial Adv points) points for free (so 155 for the bird men and 50 for the privateers so that even those have some use of the system from the beginning - but the max active adv points for a game should stay 450 of cause).
In this way you have a new balance and a start for the new system as even the beginners can test it now.

Just similar to the game itself where you start with one planet, a ship, minerals and 10.000 MC ...


3) Last but not least: Is there a balance in the possiblities the races get?

The new system should bring variety into the game. Is this true for every race?
When I analysed the new possiblities for my privateers and bird men i realized that i would buy different stuff with both races. The bird men have new racial and new ship advantages. Wonderful. So - as i do not want to spend 1/2 to 1 year to build a starbase that gives me no "bonus"/feature - i would first buy a race bonus.
WIth the privateers there are no really good new ships with special feature - no command ship, no Squadron, no repair. Of cause ... there is the bird men copy storm carrier. But nothing privateer special or 2 to 3 real options to have a choice. The Dwarf Star II is a good update (in my point of view), but it is just a update. Yes, i know, the privateers are 450 from the beginning. But nevertheless also the privateers would give up some old advantages in order to test something new, something creative.
E.g. some more cargo for a BR4. A non cloaking gravitonic (casino?) ship. Or a Skyfire with something crazy like gravitonic a warp well disperser or enhancer (no warp well at the planet or even warp 1 will fall back). Offer something because of which a privateer would give up his MRB.

But i would not say this only for the privateers but the feds and the lizards where i also miss some special feature ship.

All together ...
.. i would say: if you talk about balance do not only look on the stuff one can buy after years of playing. Ask:
- is there something new/special for every race to make them interesting for a long time?
- is there a new balance for all races for a beginner?
- must there be a revision of the SC modifications to fit into the new system?

Othrym

PS: By the way: I miss in the initial race advantages the clone ability.

2640 days, 14 hours, 5 minutes ago
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bondservant
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Good catch Othrym regarding cloning for 9 Races.  Definitely an advantage.

Default?  .  .  .  Name  .  .  .  .  .  .  Description

True  .  .  .  .  .  Cloning  .  .  .  .  .  .  Ability to clone other ships using cln friendly code

Or probably best to just lump the ability to the Tow Capture advantage -- so if you have the Tow Capture ability then you lose the ability to clone.
2640 days, 13 hours, 5 minutes ago
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joshua
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@Turssi, just a clarification. The fed can NOT disable the 70% mining.
2640 days, 7 hours, 27 minutes ago
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metadan
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Thanks for the info, Joshua!  I'll edit my post.  One further question on the DS Stealth: is the attack forced, or if I don't set PE to begin with, will it simply recloak without fighting? In essence a true cloaked intercept?  If the targeted enemy's PE was set to Fascist, or its mission set to kill, would THAT force the fight?

+1 to daniel payne and dungeonmaster regarding keeping the races distinctive and specifically NOT shoring up gaps in the shiplist (power-wise, not feature-wise).  johnqpublic's point about the improved Scorpius is spot-on, where now the colonies could potentially have a killer midship, and therefore no holes in their roster (and I also like his suggestions for appropriately themed ships instead).  This talk about a heavier carrier for the Crystals also scares me... They have the strongest race advantage in the game (by the numbers, and arguably in principal), a tech 9 torp ship that matches the unaugmented Fascists' tech 10 flagship and comes close on the Birds' and Lizards', and now they want a carrier that can stand (nearly) toe-to-toe with a heavy, with an extended range and cargo?

The great thing about the new system is that you don't HAVE to come up with all the ideas upfront: you can add in creative ships and abilities at any time.  Since people will still be bound by the 450-point limit, you don't have to worry about overpowering whatever race you're working on; just price the new additions right.  After extensive playtesting, if it's determined something is out of whack, you can simply adjust the price or the features accordingly.

I also want to strongly agree with the idea of being able to balance the races right off the bat.  We've basically officially admitted that the races are imbalanced (finally), instead of just have it being general knowledge or widely-held opinion, but you're telling a new player he has to commit to an active schedule for years at a time just to come up to a baseline of competitiveness?  +1 to Othrym's thought on giving upfront upgrades to the races below 450, even if it's just in the form of a sort of "resource loan" that would have to be paid off before researching new tech later.  And that's only if you're absolutely, unwaveringly set on this reward model.  

Personally, I am strongly, vehemently against it. Planets was always about strategy, logistics and diplomacy, never about "leveling-up" to gain a competitive edge over n00bs.  Your advantage is your skill set, not having access to better tech.  Everyone should have access to the same options as everyone else, and let their insight into making the choices and their skill in utilizing their chosen advantages determine the victor.

I understand trying to artificially incentivise the game, dangling the carrot to keep people paying their dues every month, but this player base doesn't need that kind of incentive to stick around.
These people will continue to play planets for the love of the game, especially if the experience isn't maddeningly difficult and counterintuitive to navigate and manage, and the perception of balance and fairness is maintained.  At least, I will. :)

Edit: Oh wait, I guess I can't edit a post that far back. Oh well, c'est la vie!
2639 days, 22 hours, 32 minutes ago
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daniel payne
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Metadan, I hope that it is the feeling of all that the race bonuses should be available to all players from day 1.  The system they are creating here smacks of Pay for Upgrades.  I figured we would see the "alternate means" of gaining resources with your credit card when they were ready to tell us.  You see?

I am not happy about that business model at all.  I will certainly never pay a dime for in-game advantages, though I will gladly pay my dues indefinitely.  But that seems to be an effective way to make a profit, and VGAPNU is a business in the end.  I sincerely hope I am wrong about this.

So then what other methods should there be to attain race points?  
Taking over for quitters?  Should quitters LOSE points?
Destroying a HW before turn 10?
Building every hull on your ship list with transwarp in a single game?
Making natives happy?

Perhaps that needs a thread.
2639 days, 18 hours, 21 minutes ago
View tom n's profile
tom n
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I'm too lazy to read this entire thread, but has anyone suggested taking the "Race Add On" idea to a single game format? The game would start normally, but each race could choose one new tech to research for that one game. Have it cost X amount of supplies (or a percentage) each turn so one could decide to ignore it. A Bovi planet could then be set to donate 30% to research, for example.

As in Masters of Orion (or Civilization) this new tech could be put into use later in the game. I like the idea of new race advantages, but hate to think of future games where experienced players get to start new games with advantages on new players (or more than they already have through their experience). Treat the Race Advantage Add-On like the Stellar Cartography Add-On & let players choose to play it if they want the variety.
2639 days, 14 hours, 27 minutes ago
View dazdya's profile
dazdya
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
I echo a lot of the sentiments and concerns of many people who posted here. With some I even agree. But:

I don't think we need to agree.

This game has a playerbase that is used to games that last months. We have some patience. I think all of us will agree that it is possible to have different types of games, provided we know beforehand what the rules are. If a game lasts months, then you want to check the settings upfront.

However, there are economics involved. In one post, possibly even in this thread, Joshua explained that planets.nu has about 1400 users, of which about half is a paying customer. That puts a distinct cap on the amount of games that can be run at the same time, and makes me wonder if we want to fracture the userbase too much. I can imagine Joshua wanting to attract new players, which is obviously a factor in these changes.

This thread has mostly been about game balance (as per the title), about new race benefits and existing race weaknesses, but these changes made me wonder about profits and such. The business model edges towards a slippery slope that leads to micro-transactions. This makes me... let's call it careful. Is there an alternative to this? Is planets.nu balancing the books as it is? Would a higher monthly fee drive people away, and would it stop new players from joining? And do those questions influence game balance?

Silly questions probably, but I can't keep myself from wondering.
2639 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes ago
View vepr's profile
vepr
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tom, that is an excellent idea if it could be implemented.  allowing you to research each upgrade in game from in game resources and money would be a great add on, and it would make these upgrades more widely available.  big thumbs up!
2639 days, 8 hours, 30 minutes ago
View othrym's profile
othrym
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You have already this in game form of research ... every time you buy a tech level at a starbase.
2638 days, 22 hours, 14 minutes ago
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kedalion
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Let me just throw in a recent experience I had:

I peeked into a game that is using pay-per-upgrade (or wait a long time).  Yes, it definitely working and makes good money as people that get cornered or impatient buy some boosts to fight back or level faster. I have seen it many times. Great business model. And TOTAL game killer. Absolutely no fun to play seriously. If some idiot wants to pour loads of $$ into upgrades that is his decision, but I want to be on even grounds without having to do the same. Skill should win, not money. (A normal subscription fee is fine!)

In my opinion anything like that would completely undermine this biggest strength of planets.

The existing game is awesome and NU is a great platform! I think the learning curve is more of a handicap for getting more players than the available game features. (More possible addons are welcome.) I can't even get some of my RL friends to start playing planets as there is no good (and concise) how-to on NU. I explain things, but two days later they want to look it up again... lost... 



2638 days, 22 hours, 3 minutes ago
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xeye
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kedalion>Skill should win, not money. (A normal subscription fee is fine!)

I guess poker-like wagering system also will do. Of course after server-side cheat protection will be implemented.
2638 days, 20 hours, 34 minutes ago
View tom n's profile
tom n
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re: " You have already this in game form of research ... every time you buy a tech level at a starbase."

... Of course. My point was wouldn't it be interesting to add Joshua's ideas of NEW abilities and ship enhancements as a "single-game" add-on? 

   Beyond the usual upgrade to transwarp engines & Mark 4 or 7 torps (which are a given), a race could choose to pursue a NEW enhancement that's different than the other races. Personally, I'd love to try that on a game by game basis.  
2638 days, 17 hours, 10 minutes ago
View othrym's profile
othrym
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Oops ... I should have keeped my mouth shut ... Advanced Cloning is arriving. That is hard. The double costs are easy for the Fed, so 30 adv points is a bit cheap. Can I please get a new privateer advantage "Last man's self destruction"? No mine hit at the location in time and space ... only a self destruction if the crew is killed?

2638 days, 16 hours, 59 minutes ago
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turssi
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So that means two builds at one starbase after the ship limit has hit?
2638 days, 14 hours, 15 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Klingon new advantages/ships fit the race flavour. I like!

Just bought me 2 x beam recharge before they reduce it to 1.5 :)
And of course the Ore Condenser, yummi. That's my toy as a planets gardener. Too bad the Enlightner has to many crew to capture it.

The shield generator is tempting but it's usefullness depends much on whom you are fighting. Against the big five your Vicky still gets one damage per hit and will be destroyed (so shield recharge is useless). Against the other torp races the generator really shines if you manage to get it going. The generator will be the primary target for cloaked intercepts of Birds and Lizards. Then it is gone when your Vickies fight and hopefully you don't relied too much on the ES bonus.

I just realize that the chosen toys for a certain game will change my favourite allies.

Any idea when/how we can try this out?

2638 days, 13 hours, 42 minutes ago
View joshua's profile
joshua
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Soon. :) 
2638 days, 12 hours, 4 minutes ago
View tom n's profile
tom n
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
emork, How are you able to build a starbase so quickly? It seems to some of us that it would take months to gather enough resources to construct a base to research these new goodies. Did I miss something?
2638 days, 7 hours, 43 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
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Tom, I had enough resources on my Klingon home planet for the base, the beam research and the ore condenser. Now I have little left. As far as I understood it, the homeworld resources were determined by your previous achievements. Maybe the achievements were also modified by the race strenght, so the Klingons got more?

2638 days, 7 hours, 34 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
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As a previous magic player I'm used to look for ability interactions that result in tremendeous effects. At first glance I see a nearly unbreakable lock with a Rebel/Privateer alliance:

Privateer Falcons in orbit of a Rebel planet with active energy defense field. As far as I understand only a Klingon popper could break this. Other ships can't attack the planet, can't see or attack the Falcons but will be robbed. As a nice side effect the robbed fuel can beamed down to keep the defense field working.
 
2638 days, 6 hours, 37 minutes ago
View frogger1108's profile
frogger1108
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The question of how we are going to be able to purchase these advantages and how long it's going to take seems straightforward but has never been answered.
So, Joshua, are we talking equal playing field for everyone or weeks, months, years for players to be able to customize their races ?




2635 days, 16 hours, 58 minutes ago
View seveiht's profile
seveiht
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
@emork I guess the question is whether allied ships can land on a protected planet, or simply rebel ships.  Its not clear in the description as to which. 

One could also interpret, from the current description, that enemy falcons could also land on the planet ;)
2635 days, 4 hours, 30 minutes ago
View mjs68508's profile
mjs68508
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
EVIL EMPIRE:

Start = 370 Points

(-30 = 340) - Large Minefields - The EE has great difficulty laying large minefields, anyway. Gives an immediate free 30 points to spend.

(+30 = 370) - Destroy Planet - This is a great tool, especially since it is essentially free. It is a good threat in tandem with the SSD. However, its major benefit is gradually destroying my own planets. Combined with the new intrinsic Debris Disk Defense, I could gradually set up an empire that would be very dificult to maneuver in and conquer. Enemy minefields and web minefields would be severly limited. I could create huge islands where my fleet could attack from. Each Debris Disk or cluster of Debris Disk could have battlegroups that attack on one side or the other. An empire of 20 planets + 80 Debris Disks would be fantastic.

As I accumulated points I would keep the other starting ships/abilities and add (in order):

(+30 = 400) - Starbase Fighter Minesweeping - After the Crystals webs and the Borgs chunneling, I think Colonial fighter minesweeping is the next most powerful racial ability.

(+10 = 410) - Ion SB Shield - I hate ion storms

That does it for the stuff that I think will really help. In a game with a 410 point limit, the EE would be a formidable race. But, as I continued to accumulate points, I would add:

(+10 = 420) - Ru25 Gunboats - With the empire mostly Debris Disks with a zillion small Star Bases, these ships make taking the Debris Disk star bases even tougher.

(+30 = 450) - Advanced Cloning - Helpful in case nice ships are traded for or captured. SSD's for cloakers, anyone?

Destroy Planets is definitely a game changer. By giving up large minefields it is free and immediately available. It is a great trading power: "What will you give me if I blow up that Amporphous ice ball into an endless supply of minerals and fuel?" And, by blowing up large numbers of my own non-good-native planets, it will make web mines look like a child's toy.

2635 days, 3 hours, 44 minutes ago
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mjs68508
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Destroy Planet is also great for the offense. Short on fuel? No problem! Just crack open a newly conquered planet and you have a new fuel supply in the Debris Disk formed.

Just like conquering borg territory is distasteful because all the natives are gone, conquering 20 planets + 80 debris disks of the Empire will be hard and distasteful because it only nets you 20 planets toward victory.


2635 days, 3 hours, 26 minutes ago
View othrym's profile
othrym
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Hi mjs68508,

but do not forget ... debris discs/asteroids does not count toward the planet count for a win. I have learnd it the hard way. So if you "create" 80 debris discs (what you can do in a long game as you get fuel out of the asteroids), then there are only 420 planets left. So it is harder to get the 200 for a win.

Or ... if you have a good logistic .... you can destroy 301 planets ... and noone can win any more. A real *Game killer* advantage ... 8)

Othrym
2635 days, 1 hours, 24 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Excellent points all around, exactly why I started this thread. 
There is a new NUK trap with the new rules (rebel+pirate) pointed out by Emork.
Gorbie death laser can dramatically affect game win conditions pointed out by Othrym.

What we the players need for base-level analysis and testing is that the new "features" be integrated into the battle simulator.
We need tick boxes that allow for say klingon 1.5x beams and +50% shields from saber and so on. All these new abilities need to be integrated into the battle-simulator so that we can try killer race/ability/ship combinations.

Again to the few who reply with negative comments - this thread is not about "why" there are additional rules/addons/etc... it's about game balance of those additional rules/addons. The "why" or "should" is a separate issue, here we discuss the problems of the rules "as is".
2635 days, 1 hours, 18 minutes ago
View seveiht's profile
seveiht
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It is not necessarily a nuk trap.  You are assuming that the pirate falcons can land on a rebel planet.

hmm
actually i guess the rebel could refuel the pirate for rob?  ya thats pretty nasty haha
2635 days, 1 hours, 9 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
If an attacker does not get control of the planet it is a NUK trap.
The only essential part of the NUK trap equation is that control of the planet after combat phase is not achieved. That's all you need. Because of the NU change that rob will get your clan cargo transfer to foreign planet it is a serious balance concern.

2635 days, 0 hours, 47 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
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The battler simulater now includes the new ships. But images for the new ships are not displayed in the simulator. This is a minor problem of course.
I strongly support DM's request for including the Klingon double speed beam and the Saber ES bonus. This is essential if you want to find out a good configuration for  Klingon ships against different enemies. The shield recharge doesn't matter as long as the simulator doesn't support multi-ship combat.

One point I want to add to the list of game relevant changes: The Klingons are now the best carrier race - if they manage to get a 10-beam-carrier. With double speed beams a Klingon 10-beam-carrier should have a win percentage of 100 against even the best starbases. Against another carrier the double speed beams might a least shift the winning probability a little bit towards the Klingons. VCR side, general randomness, 3 additional Fed bays or 150% Lizard damage might still be stronger factors.

@Seveiht: We lack knowledge of a lot of details about the new abilities. We have to wait for the first games to see if e.g. the Falcon-NUK-trap will work and if the wining condition will be adjusted to 40 if a cluster consists of 100 planets and 405 debris disks. I'm VERY curious ...




 

2635 days, 0 hours, 16 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
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Actually Sev, I think I am wrong upon further reflection and you're right.

The NUK trap granted control of the planet to the pirate. The important thing is that it is still under rebel control and so cannot give fuel to fuel-less pirate ships in orbit in the "own cargo transfer" phase. For it to be a NUK trap then the pirate controlled falcon must be protected by the EDF, so you are correct. So long as the pirate falcon is not protected by EDF there is no NUK trap.
2634 days, 23 hours, 51 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
DM, you're right but it hasn't to be a NUK-trap. If the Rebel energy field grants invisibility also to allied Falcons the Pirate Falcons could wait in orbit with fuel on board.
2634 days, 23 hours, 46 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
For sure Emork, that's precisely Sev's point and my correction.

I think anything short of a borg base will drop to a vicky with 2x fire rate +50% shields, you may not need a heavy carrier at all. A klingon controlled annihilation for sure will win, it's already a very dicey battle. At 1.5x fire rate, not necessarily, again we need to be able to do sims!
2634 days, 23 hours, 4 minutes ago
View othrym's profile
othrym
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Is this the right thread to ask for the in game logic?
If a race gets the advantage to blast a planet. Ok nice. That is a possible megagun.

An energy shield. Ok. Nice. But why does the building of a starbase prevents the energy shield? There i see no SiFi logic ...

And another idea because of the Balance topic: the energy shield is itself a strong advantage. It changes completely the logistic of an attacker as the rebel with a shield of a ring of "no starbase planets but energy shield" with many colonists, fuel and defence posts than only can attack with freighters full of colonists. WIth that fuel planets the rebel can organize/supply his attacks, but as soon as someone attacks, he can run the shield for 10 or more turns.


2634 days, 20 hours, 36 minutes ago
View daniel payne's profile
daniel payne
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Well, it costs a significant amount of fuel to keep it going.  I doubt it will be a reasonable strategy to keep the shield up indefinitely.  The Rebels are one of the more fuel-hungry races to begin with, so I do not see an issue with this.

On that note, it may be interesting to see what Rebel players can do with some Cobols to create an impressive group of planets.
2634 days, 19 hours, 10 minutes ago
View othrym's profile
othrym
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Hi daniel payne,

I see the possibilities in combination:
Yes, the rebels are a fuel hungry race. So they would - in preparation of an attack - deposit fuel on the outer planets. In this way they have a perfect refuel station if they go to attack. And if they have to defende, they must not send sends but only activate the energy shield. (there would have there the fuel for 10 or more turns in order to refuel the ships if they would attack).

Where other races need ships to defende a planet, they only need the planet itself. And even if they only have 200kt fuel on the planet ... that will stop the enemy there at the planet for that while ... and the best is:

A normal player that leaves fuel on outer planets gives by this his enemy the change to get a refuel on the attack on him. Not with the new Rebel. There is no risk of fuel on out planets. If an enemy arrives .. just switch the field on. Then the attacker must wait or fly further on. If he waits ... the shield will end when the fuel is empty. And then there is no refuel.

So in the future attacks much organize much more fuel in advance if they attack the rebel.

...

I see a new kind of universe. One corner ... the empire surrounds by 80 - 100 debris discs, on the opposit corner the rebel surrounded by planets ready to activate the energy shield. In between the Klingon huntinng the borg and the colony with a fast beam gorbie 8)

That will be very interesting ... i hope it will last a small while til the first test game starts ... so that i can end another game and be part of the first test 8)
2633 days, 23 hours, 25 minutes ago
View regicide's profile
regicide
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
What I would like to know is what is the formula that is used to get resources.
I know non-played race gets:
3d / 4t /2m and 10 MC to start as of today may change over time and then gets
.03d /0.4t /0.2m and 1mc a day. ( 0.9 minerals a day)

I just finished my first game as the Robots and got 3th place and I am have and am getting
7d/9t/5m and 23mc and get
0.4/ 0.5/ 0.3 and 2mc a day ( 1.2 minerals a day) that is very little difference.

It was aDiplomatic Planets game that lasted 55 turns.I had 93 planets and was first in Military at over 50% and in Tons Destroyed.

I have played 231 turns in 6 games as the fascist (2 are on going) they are getting 1.7 minerals and2 MC a day. In each game I finished higher then they a were when I joined.

It looks like to me to get any amount of resources do you need to be on the winning team in a game.

How will that balance the game? 
2633 days, 20 hours, 52 minutes ago
View daniel payne's profile
daniel payne
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
It looks like it incentivizes playing underpowered races because those are the ones that have the most to gain from having lots of points.  And you have to spend the points on the team you earned them for.  
That's a good thing.  But there is still the issue of unfair games for newer players.  I do not consider the "Pay cash for upgrades" option an attractive one.  What is the problem with have some vanilla advantages for underpowered races that can be swapped out with points?

Vanilla bonuses could be:
:1 extra free fighter per starbase=10 points. (up to 10 max)
:10% mining bonus or colonist (not native) tax bonus=10 pts (up to 150% max)
 Etc.

The key is to make the bonuses you research more interesting than the ones you start with, but only more powerful if you are good at using them.  A noob would not know how to use SuperSpy Starbase Command or understand the value of advanced cloning, but could easily gain advantage from extra income.

••••••••••••

Also, what if the current residents of the Echo Cluater were not it's original inhabitants?  I think it might be cool to have Ancient Alien Artifacts on random planets.  An Alien Artifact is a blueprint for a technology such as:
:how to use starbase fighters to minesweep
:how to get your beams to recharge twice as fast
:how to build a Thor that is much larger than typical

An Alien Artifact basically grants a player the ability to use whatever technology it contains, but only while the player controls the planet and only if it is available to that race.  It grants no advantages to races that do not have that tech available to them, but it does prevent others from having it and makes a great trading commodity.

There are, maybe 25 Ancient Alien Artifacts distributed amongst the 500 planets, each never less than 84 LY from a homeworld.  Which technology is represented is selected randomly during the MASTER program of universe creation.  Each tech can only be on a single planet (no duplicates).  A planet can have more than one artifact.  Artifacts are discovered upon settling and generate a message to that effect. Its benefits are available immediately. An artifact is permanently associated with the planet for the game.  It is a structure that can not be moved or destroyed.  To avoid unsporting behavior, it also prevents natives (if any) from civil war due to the awe it inspires.


2633 days, 20 hours, 52 minutes ago
View daniel payne's profile
daniel payne
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grrr, double post
2633 days, 20 hours, 52 minutes ago
View daniel payne's profile
daniel payne
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
ehh, triple...
2625 days, 13 hours, 56 minutes ago
View stepheniniowa's profile
stepheniniowa
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
not sure of this has been answered yet and I missed it so.......asking
If I understand the new options in what I'm going to call the   "race options add on feature", I can earn points to spend on slight alterations and improvements to a races abilities and options . I earn those by playing well in the games I play here.........I might also have points to spend additionally just because I chose to play one of the lesser strength races .............I might even be able to subtract a few of a races abilities to gain extra spendable points to alter that races options for that game.

So.................what happens when I've spent my earned points on a race in a game and that game ends or I want to enter another game as either the same or a different race..............if I pick that same race again...........do I have to live with my spent points and alterations? or can I subtract off another ability and spend those points to alter the race a bit more?................are my "earned "points from playing games already spent on alterations in the  previous game ?......and therefore to actually be able to use those earned points I have to pick again the race that I previously spent those points on?
Can I start each new game with the total of points I;ve earned over time, and make alterations to whatever race I choose to play by subtracting race options to gain more points and then spend those and my "earned points  ' in the new game for the new race?
     What I don't want to see is that I am in an add- on game where I am outgunned by someone who already chose the race I'd spent alot of my points on...........my point augmented race improvements cannot be used , and he gets to use his.......and I have to start as a different race with my "earned points "already spent on another race that I cannot choose here.
That seems unbalanced and serves those who have time to play most often and therefore earn the most "earned points"

Thoughts?
Stephen



2520 days, 1 hours, 29 minutes ago
View bluejay's profile
bluejay
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2519 days, 19 hours, 6 minutes ago
View smn's profile
smn
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So, I was a moron and forgot to develop faster beams for my Fascists before I ran out of minerals.

But, for the sake of discussion, here is my initial 450 advantage Fascist Empire:

Techs:
Plunder planet. Really really nice cash flow for +40 adv.

Ships:
Armored Ore Condenser. A no-brainer for 10 adv. Combined with plunder planet this will really give wings to the economy. Also, one of the very first problems with Fascists is running out of Duranium. Building one of these as the first build will take HW duranium extraction to reeeeally nice level!
D3 Thorn Destroyer - Deactivated for -5 adv. Never liked this ship and not going to change a good pattern now.
Saber Class shield generator 60adv. I've got the feeling that a few of these will make the Vicky prevail against most of the other torpedo battleships, maybe even the Instrumentality. Or at least make fighting Vickys very expensive in terms of ordinance!

When I get the mats for faster beams I will definitely deactivate one pop ship, maybe the Saber. Also, another thing to think about would be deactivating the Deth Specula for -10. Maybe disable large mine fields? Those fast-beam shield protected Vickies in huge numbers thanks to the boosted economy - can't wait!
2515 days, 14 hours, 23 minutes ago
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turssi
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
For the Rebels I just activated all the new ships and dropped some minor stuff I don't use.

The SB / race abilities were too expensive. I expect the first games to be won by the races that have the best new ships, as ship abilities are cheaper to buy.
2515 days, 13 hours, 28 minutes ago
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joshua
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For the Colonies and Rebels it has been mentioned that Iron Lady is a benefit against mine laying. It should be noted that this ship and any ships with it will move in the host order prior to mine laying. 

That also means prior to being towed. So essentially any ship which is with an Iron Lady can not be towed away by a cloaking ship. It will move away before the cloaker tows. That and moving before mine laying are the reason this ship is a 60 point advantage. 




2515 days, 11 hours, 45 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
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Hi Joshua, for clarification precisely where in the host order does the ship move? Can they be robbed? When does a towing iron lady actually move in the host order?
2515 days, 1 hours, 1 minutes ago
View tarrok's profile
tarrok
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
I think, easiest way (and fastest) to try these new technologies - play Blitz-game.

Unfortunately, in the Blitz-game they not available.
2514 days, 23 hours, 45 minutes ago
View tom n's profile
tom n
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Joshua, Although the new Iron Lady 'move first' ability sounds cool, I think you might consider allowing the Crystals to lay their web mines ahead of them. If left as is I agree with Bondservant that it basically negates the Xtals main race advantage & although I'm playing them at Doggle (beta game), I won't ever play them in a campaign game again if left as is. 
The Rebels and Colonies can trade these ships to any race bordering the Crystals and they have clear sailing to sweep without losing fuel.

P.S. Please make each races' new add-ons visible somewhere on each game screen so I know what to be prepared for.
2514 days, 22 hours, 48 minutes ago
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bondservant
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Tom, if I said it "negates the Xtals main race advantage" then I should not have said so.  Sure it has a big impact.  But there are plenty of advantages with web mines even with players that have the Iron Lady Command ship.  Some ships/abilities will help some Races more than others and some ships/abilities will hurt some Races more than others.  The end result of the Campaign game is it will need to be played a little differently.  And hopefully, the Campaign game will eventually be more balanced, giving all Races a better chance to win .. all things equal.

One other note at this time -- Nu Planets is a game where you make friends and allies in the galaxy.  So how a Crystal approaches other Races will also be different in the Campaign game.  While in normal games, the initial thought would have been to make sure the Borg or Privateers do not gain a strong foothold in the galaxy, in Campaign games the Crystals may need to plan for the Colonies and Rebels to not grow strong.  Or perhaps they will be better choices to become the Crystal's ally. 

Plenty to consider as the Campaign games open up lots of new possibilities for all of the Races....


Campaign Game Constant Comment:  There are so many factors in playing Nu Planets.  It is easy to lose perspective.  But when I take a step back, I realize that there are many "random" factors in Nu Planets that will have far more of an impact on my game than whether a Race has one or two more ships/abilities -- like 8M Insectoid natives next to my HW that are Unity instead of Tribal.  Or whether or not my neighbor decides to quit early on -- giving me a chance to easily take his planets.  Those factors are HUGE -- and all new ships/abilities pale in comparison.  In fact, if done correctly (which is going to be the real challenge), then once all players have these new ships/abilities, then the game will actually be more balanced - since right now some Races are truly easier for a player to win than other Races.
2514 days, 21 hours, 51 minutes ago
View joshua's profile
joshua
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Tom n, I think you must misunderstand a little bit. The Iron Lady does not give the player the free ability to pass through webmines, only to move before webmines are laid this turn. So as a Crystal player, if you are fighting these races you'll need to be more proactive and plan ahead, knowing that these guys can move through space you haven't laid mines in yet. You'll need to lay mines the turn before you expect someone to arrive. Just makes the planning a little more difficult. 
2514 days, 20 hours, 52 minutes ago
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tom n
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Joshua, 
We'll see if it comes into play at Doggle. Like any new add-on we'll learn from these beta games. I see your point as far as defending my turf, but think you've weakened the Xtal's offensive strategies significantly. In general I find they've been given some minor advantages (gunboats, that can't lay mines & increased population growth), while taking away some of their offensive advantages...kind of a wash,  while several other races have more to be excited about. The Armored Ore Condenser might give them a more useful ship to get them even with the other races, IMHO. If I decide to choose a race to 'campaign' with, I would probably look elsewhere with the Fascists, Rebels, or Borgs.
Bondservant, I agree "Negate" was too strong a word. Weakened would have been better.I still see the Iron Lady and it's fellow ships hopping into the edge of a webmine, sweeping and running without fear of that mine being added to.next turn.  In open space warfare I used to send Emeralds near my opponents fleets to lay a webmine before they could get away, now that tactic won't work either.
As far as other components (Great Natives & Quitters) contributing far more to victory than these add-ons, well of course! That all goes without saying as we're just discussing the balance of these new features. And saying the Crystals will just have to be better at Diplomacy now....really? So if 10 races were given nice advantages (for the sake of argument) and one race was given a minor tweak while minimizing one of their usual advantages you tell them "Sorry, you'll just have to focus more on diplomacy"?

I agree making friends and diplomacy is a big part of winning (and losing) here, but I'd like to think the new features had two things to try and accomplish. Add some interesting new aspects to try, and also address some race imbalances. My hope is after some beta testing Joshua adjusts and balances things once more feedback gets to him. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out!
2514 days, 17 hours, 52 minutes ago
View othrym's profile
othrym
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Tom,
on the other hand the starbase minelaying advantage has much more value to the Xtals because the starbases then also can lay webmines. Thus you need not to leave many ships behind to protect your homezone. And in addition the Command ship is a 50 point advantages thus he indeed should have some impact to the game.
I believe that especially the alternation of the great advantages will make that kind of games interesting, as it can change many thus one will need to play every game a bit different as bond said.

> So if 10 races were given nice advantages

I have not found the advantages for the privateer. Thus i am longing for my first campain game ... only need some more time ... but maybe for the privateer the starbase minesweeping adv is a good advantage.

The only thing I wonder is the fact that the campagne games are also stellar cartography games. The race point system bases on the analyse of many normal games. But there is another balance in the stellar cartography games than in normal games. Thus the campain games should be normal games. See e.g. the cloak advantage from Lizards, Klingons, Privateers and non Resolute/Darkwing Birdmen ships. The nebulas are (compared with ion storms) constant zones of decloaking. Because of this that races have a disadvantage in this zones as they cannot scout there.
2513 days, 15 hours, 22 minutes ago
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thin lizzy
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply

Since there hasn't been a comment on the Lizard Alliance, i'll give it a try.
I havent's played a campaign game so far, so i can only comment on basic games,
and only on the basis of what i know about the game.


Starbase Minesweeping: / Starbase Minelaying
Impact: High
Lizard economy allows to build more starbases than other races, so this feature can
be used pretty well. Especially vs mine monsters like the crystal or the robots the sweeping
feature makes lizard bases really hard to conquer. vs the empire the minelaying feature is
pretty strong to defend against ssd's.

Some things i would like to ask:
- which torp tech do they scoop? new friendly codes? 'mk7' for scoop mark 7?
- which type of torpedo will a base lay? how do they priorize, if you have more torps than a max
  minefield requires? i suggest to priorize low to high tech, unless e.g. again the code of the torp type
  specifies it


Advanced Cloning

Impact: Medium
Love this feature. Lizards usually have the money to clone ships. To get more hyperjumpers for
cash transport or heavy torpers and carriers via the usual queue is a great (but expensive)
opportunity. It depends very much on your diplomatic skills though

Ion shield

Impact: No idea



Ships:
All in all the Lizards have gained more cloakers.

Reptile Class Escort:
Impact: Low
One engine cloaker. I understand that the regular Reptile is too expensive for it's use...
A good equivalent to the swift, but a pure scout. Early game ship, cash transporter.
Still gets captured in fight.

Vendetta B  Class Frigate:
Impact: Low
One Engine Frigate with 4/4 and increased crew. Early game ship again, at least a more logic
spec than the normal vendetta, which is pretty useless. combo ship and a pure fighter.

Vendetta Stealth Class Frigate
Impact: Medium
One Engine Frigate with 4/4, increased crew and cloaking device. Cheaper than the Vendetta
Classes. Again the better and cheaper spec like the Vendetta B, but it it's cloaking device makes
it a good ship vs. the privateers, fascists and birds. Due to it's low cargo again a pure fighter that
needs starbases around in order to be repaired. I wonder how strong the new vendettas are in
comparison to other frigates like the Saurians. If it had two engines, i would gladly change it for a
saurian or reptile class

Saurian Class Frigate

Impact: Low
Decreased Cargo (120kt), 10kt more mass and 3 more beams than the Saurian Class Light
Cruiser. Still not a fighter, since it still has only two torp tubes, but might be a good preparator
to shoot down sb-fighters. A reasonable Minesweeper.

Saurian Class Heavy Frigate
Impact: Medium
Decreased Cargo (90) and 5 more beams (9), one more tube and +70kt mass
A good sweeper and a big brother for the Lizard Class. The cloaking enemy for the
Resolute and the Emerald Class Battlecruisers. 90 Cargo is still reasonable, but ground
combat, cargo transportation and minelaying are not really possible.
A typical ship for the late game, when the lizards can't play their ground combat anymore
and need to actually fight starbases.
In the overall performance it may not really comparable to the resolute and emerald battlecruisers:
The magic range the saurian light cruiser has to be sacrificed for more sweeping power.


2513 days, 8 hours, 47 minutes ago
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kedalion
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Ok, I'll chime in on the comments for Crystals:

I don't see how Colonials and Rebels would ever have to travel through more than 1ly of webmines. Yes, proactive helps, but considering the size of the fuel tanks of their ships you will have to rely on getting some actual web hits and not just drainage... If I always know the size of the enemy web fields, movement is plain simple. 
And thinking of offensive capabilities of the Crystals: now there is no more point in covering enemy bases in webs and depleting the orbiting ships. The base will never run out of fuel. Any offensive move will be a lot more expensive than before. But then luckily Crystals also got that Starbase money transfer to pay for it... oh wait... they didn't... :D

I'm curious to see how things will work out in the future. I don't think the current set of features are actually balancing the races better as some new features are simply far too strong. But I guess we won't know until after some beta games.

Btw. there are still weird things going on. For example, I have a Fascist 'officer' which has not played a turn (or maybe <10 in a test blitz) that has >800 minerals each and >3000MC. The same time creating a new EE officer now (so same experience) starts from 0...
2513 days, 1 hours, 15 minutes ago
View dungeonmaster's profile
dungeonmaster
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
For all the discussion about the command ship screwing over the crystals all it means practically is you need to enhance your web fields by more than 81 ly in radius relative to the last known position of the command fleet. This isn't difficult end-game or even mid-game.
Forget the crystals the real pain will definitely be for the pirates, and it would be nice to get the specific interaction of tow-lock and when other command ships move with-respect to tow missions. Right now it's clear if you intercept but what about tow?

This is the situation I see developing:
Rebel/colonial fleet moves in crushing a pirate planet. 
A bunch of MBR orbiting a planet some set to rob and some set to tow.
Command fleet set to "beam up fuel" and move some small distance, 1-4 ly or so. Pirate gets nothing but gas fumes, tow-lock utterly fails because command ship fleet moved away, rinse, repeat.
I'm curious now how the bloodfang + red wind storm fair against the virgo/rush.
2512 days, 23 hours, 49 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
The command ships make life harder for the Crystals, no doubt. But it's not like Rebels/Colonies are able to travel in a safe extra-dimensional-bubble now. If they attack into an existing defense carpet of many small webs there is little difference to regular games.

I agree to DM that there are many questions to be answered before we can evaluate the new abilities. Maybe the command ships don't work without fuel? That would change the scenario against Pirates of course. I also agree that Pirates have more to fear now. But on the other hand there are so many new goodies to steal. The good Pirate could build up a nice empire of ore condensed and well educated 50 degree planets.

Overall I expect this first attempt to be terrible unbalanced. And it will need a lot of games to find out what to change. But I think it's fun to try out! I would recommend to limit the amount of time you spend for a campaign game and play it more for fun than for victory. So you aren't disappointed too much if you face a new ship/ability/race-combination that you simply can't deal with.


2512 days, 23 hours, 32 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
I fully agree with Emork, even to go so far as to say some of the abilities should just be tried out for fun too since the VCR will not be able to handle them. Some lesser well known combinations may be fun to see,  I want battle reports of a fed controlled valiant-wind/bloodfang with red-wind-storm!
I wish I had more time... as it is not a chance for many months.
2512 days, 23 hours, 27 minutes ago
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kedalion
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Oh, never thought about that combo. Does the Red Wind Storm add 2 or 5 bays if owned by Feds?
2512 days, 23 hours, 17 minutes ago
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othrym
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Yesterday I realized a new side effect of the campain model. It can at the moment increase the amount of drops from a game ... and this enhanced count of droppers will unbalance this special game.
I realized it in the cheeseball system (first giant melee game), when i once again after a long time checked the host message: "You earnd nothing" (no real quote)

That is indeed no bug as Emork and his ally has a great economy with blooming webminefields thus we are on a rearguard action. Because of this there is no change to get a planet to earn a credit. That is ok, if you nevertheless want to resist as long as possible and any campain points are not important to you. But if you want to get new "special moves"  - and i believe that many people will concentrate more on geting more "special moves" then points in the leaderboard or good fights - then you will drop from the game as soon as you realize that you will not get many campain points in this special game. Because of this the amount of dropping people may increase.

Because of this it may be an idea to add some campain bonus for people that stay in the game even if the do not gather planets. E.g. give them
- a base amount of points every turn
- a small bonus per planet that they capture in a turn
- a planet dependent bonus at the end of the game
- and a great bonus for staying in the game until the end!

Maybe this then even can reduce the general amount of drops, if you get a bonus at the end of the game even if you only have one planet or one ship left.

Othrym

PS:
@Emork: Hurry up a bit in Cheeseball ... I am longing to try a campain game but I need the time to start and play it, thus other games should come to an end. 8)
2512 days, 23 hours, 6 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
I fully agree with othrym on this, the benefits towards new technology should come from playing with the race, not necessarily being successful with them. The risk is otherwise to have a pool of successful players acquire better toys and be even more successful. Some advantage towards good play, maybe 30% more, but not all or nothing. This is clearly a balance concern, not a racial balance but overall balance.
I believe the original model was towards having players pay real $$ towards what they can't afford through victory but if that is not the eventual route then there should be incentive merely to keep playing. A combination of everything, pay/play/victory is probably best to keep the site and mods active and healthy but that's merely my own opinion.

OK, now I really need to do work and yet another mammoth Taurus turn tonight...
2512 days, 22 hours, 54 minutes ago
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bondservant
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
+1 re. good ideas from Emork and Othrym ..

1) play the Campaign game with fun/testing in mind and trying new things more than winning; I am using that exact attitude in a "Rebel Planets" mode that I am testing in a different game.

2) give a bonus of campaign points for all players that stay in any Nu game (incl. Melee) until the end - and to all replacements that were in the game for a minimum number of turns.

I too won't be able to test the Campaign game for awhile either due to my playload with current games, but when I do it looks like I might be able to hook up again into a game with thin lizzy, Emork, Othrym, and/or DungeonMaster since it will be awhile for them too .. that would be fun.  And perhaps even DragonDejhi who I understand is salivating at the prospect of a fleet with Saurian Class Heavy Frigates.
2512 days, 22 hours, 48 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
@Othrym: Trying my best in Cheeseball. It's great fun playing in a dominant position but I'm already commited to new challanges and these grow bigger. Unfortunatly I'm a little bit away from the current action. But be sure a fleet is on the way. And this fleet has a plan to speed things up.
Meanwhile I have to watch my green friend caring for the lost Colonies and your advanced positions. ;)
 
2512 days, 22 hours, 30 minutes ago
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seveiht
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
quick side question:
Will research and/or active technology be hidden from players?
i.e. Do we have to learn what people have selected in game.  That, I think, would an interesting feature.  Perusing some of the players in the campaign test game it seems that it is. 

I would like to see what you've selected to be hidden.  At the very least it should be hidden until everyone has joined and the game started.

Considering joining as rebels, but time is tight right now.  I'm trying to forecast when existing games will end (cheese ball doesn't count, most of my ships are crystal loners...the why is still eluding me though, other than he could be abusing the new minefield limit thing and is protecting his fields from decaying)
2512 days, 10 hours, 25 minutes ago
View echoclusterveteran's profile
echoclusterveteran
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
+1 To Othrym.  Emork, go ahead and win already please... lol.  How lost are those lost Colonies anyway?

No seriously, I also got zero campaign resources for my present turn in Cheeseball even though I won some battles (I understand now, though, it's planets not battles that count).  I won't be getting any more planets in Cheeseball any time soon so I'll be getting no campaign resources at all.  So if I were actually (1) very interested in building my campaign resources and (2) not such a stubborn jackass, it would make good sense to resign now because that game is going to go on God-only-knows how much longer.

+1 to DM.  Pay/play/victory is a good combination.

+1 to Bondservant.  Please give some kind of reason for people to stay in games, or some kind of penalty for dropping out.  I understand, some people just don't like seeing everything they have worked for go up in a mass of photon torpedo smoke so they just quit.  Give them an incentive to stay.
2512 days, 0 hours, 24 minutes ago
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dungeonmaster
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
As a side note, absolutely Bond, I would enjoy playing again with you, Emork, DragonDejhi, othrym, lizzy, and others again with this new addon ruleset. I rarely if ever hold grudges incidentally, these games are just that, games, it's important to not lose sight of that.

That doesn't mean I won't flip out occasionally... woe betide my wrath...
2511 days, 17 hours, 55 minutes ago
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smn
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Let's talk a bit more about hypothetical race adjustments and strengths. I'll get the party started with this plan for big, bad 445 advantage point Fascists:

 === Research ===

Deactivated:
Large minefields: -30

Activated:
Faster beams: 50
Plunder planet: 40

Total 60

=== Ships ===

Deactivated:
Saber Class Frigate: -35
Thorn Class Destroyer: -5
Deth Specula Class Frigate: -10

Activated:
Armored Ore Condenser: 10
Thorn Class Cruiser: 20
Saber Class Shield Generator: 60

Total 40

This would be my ideal spend for +100 Fascist Advantage points. Can't do all of it yet though. The philosophy for behind this combination:

1) Economy
Good economy is the first cornerstone. An Armored Ore Condenser will ship some clans, money and minerals around in the home cluster while bringing the mineral extraction rates up. Minerals galore! The duranium bottleneck will be gone, good beams for all combat ships! Actually I'm planning to build a secondary starbase purely to get 4-5 of these built without slowing initial expansion too much. Finally, these extra ships can be spared to do some self-pillaging for weak government natives or amorphs in the home cluster. Combined with Plunder Planet, my Fascists will have a flying start with minerals and money.

2) Raw combat power
Faster beams will make my mass-produced Vickies the scourge of carriers and give the Vickies a good chance to kill even max-defended starbases. The Saber Class Shield Generators will join the Vicky fleets in pairs, giving them much-needed staying power against similar-sized combat ships such as the Missouri or T-Rex.

The improved fighting power of the Vicky reduces the need to use many glories in combat, reducing risk in glory usage and removing the need to use Sabers in order to keep own damage more manageable. The D19b will still be there to take care of Amorph-popping, cloaker guarding and the occasional boost to battle.  

3) Improved cloaked operations

The Thorn Cruiser will be a cloaking minelayer, clan transport and a decent light combat ship, fulfilling the role of Deth Specula which can then be deactivated. Coldpain needs to stay in order to get a tow-capable cloaker. If the Thorn Cruiser had 2 engines, the Coldpain could be also deactivated. 

The only front where the Fascists would be noticeably weakened is late game mine laying. But that disadvantage is hugely compensated by the big economy and combat power boost that makes these Fascists an early game monster.
2510 days, 10 hours, 29 minutes ago
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eeon
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
i have a question regarding the new improvements and removal from a ship list.

lets say im playing the feds. and i have disabled the loki for whatever reasons. perhaps i thought i wouldnt need them. but later im up to my knees in faschist dethspeculas. if i were to recieve a loki from the lizards, and begin cloning it. would i be able to do so, i mean it used to be in my shiplist, and normally i wouldnt be able to clone ships i can build. would i be able to clone if i had it disabled for the campaign game?


2510 days, 7 hours, 7 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Good question, eeon! Due to the rules you should be able to clone a Loki under these circumstances but it may be that this special scenario isn't covered yet by the campaign mode (still beta). Only Joshua will be able to tell at the moment.
2510 days, 6 hours, 54 minutes ago
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kissofpain
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Hi, the new features are great! Here's my input so far:

1. Starting minerals

I only played fascists and borg on NU in several games. I never completed any game because when I first started I had to quit due to RL issues. Now I came back and joined 2 new games as replacement player. I have 148 achievement / 10k xp / 100k destruction as borg and 147/13k/130k as fascist.

Now, fascists have 3300 mc and a lot of minerals, while borg only have 252 mc and less than 100 minerals each.

Does anyone see anything wrong with these numbers?

2. New borg features

I noticed that I can't add any new ships w/o removing one of the current ships, like FCC/Anni/Biocide. I have removed everything possible from standard race abilities - recover minerals, clone ships, lay big minefields - and I am sitting at 405 points, not enough to even use the B41b.

Considering B41b gives only a small benefit - not worth enough not to build a FCC instead - I think it is overpriced. It should either recieve a cost reduction, or be given all FCC features for a lesser cost than FCC but bigger than it is now. This way I can switch FCC for a cheaper chunneler that however can't tow and can't lay mines. And then maybe I could use B222b w/o giving up to Anni or Bio.

3. Beta testing

Would be great if for the purpose of balance tests in this beta we would get all features already bought for all races. Than we can just tweak our races to our preference and start testing.
2509 days, 23 hours, 52 minutes ago
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cptspiff
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Starting minerals and mega credits for each race is inversely proportional to the amount of advantage points that team starts with, which makes sense I think. So all the fascist players should be able to buy at least one or two of the new abilities and be more competitive in the Campaign game. Cyborg don't need to buy something off the bat to become competitive.

I must say, I am glad that the Cyborg ships are a lot of advantage. This way, you have to sacrifice some late game power (either the anni or biocide), which is something the cyborg have oodles of, in exchange for some more tactically versatile and early game ships. If they could just get rid of little fluff abilities that no one cared about to get a ship that increases the rate at which the empire expands and develops chunnel networks, then there isn't much of a trade off.

The way that cyborg got shafted imo however, is that the stats which the initial advantage points were based off, were all gathered while tow chunnel was active. The fact that tow chunnel has been deactivated after all those games should've seen a slight drop in firecloud advantage value to compensate.  
2509 days, 23 hours, 7 minutes ago
View emork the lizard king's profile
emork the lizard king
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
For the interested audiance: The ore condenser works fine. It condenses even without fuel and gives the following status report.

From: ARMORED ORE CONDENSER ID#xxx
We are condensing the ore deposits on planet xxxxxxxxxx ID#xxx. The minerals densities are now:
Neutronium: 50%
Duranium: 30%
Tritanium:35%
Molybdenum:95%
2509 days, 22 hours, 8 minutes ago
View joshua's profile
joshua
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Thanks for reporting that Emork, that's actually a small bug, its supposed to have fuel to condense.  
2509 days, 9 hours, 10 minutes ago
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kissofpain
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
Comparing new advantages for borg to those of the fascists, I can't bet on borg being too good anymore. And anyway B41b is just too weak to worth removing any of the borg ship designs. This means if I want to play a good borg I am stuck to playing them vanilla.

Btw, I wish I could see new advantages for all races w/o the need to have an officer for each, is there a way to do so?

@ jushua: any plans to allow premium members test all features in the beta with all races they may want to?
2508 days, 20 hours, 1 minutes ago
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joshua
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
You can see all the features here: http://planets.nu/ships

There are currently no plans to allow all the features to be available to everyone for testing. 
2508 days, 16 hours, 22 minutes ago
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kissofpain
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
But isn't this the purpose of beta? How much would take for a normal player to unlock all feature to a single race? 1 year? And then how much time to test all features for race balance purposes? 3-6 months? Won't be best to have the game out of beta sooner than that?
2505 days, 3 hours, 12 minutes ago
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othrym
RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply

As I have ended another game some days before some data for the discussion how to keep people in games with the new campain/"reward" system:

1) When the game ended I have had 209 planets, first rank but in an alliance. Result:

#Duranium: 927.92
#Tritanium: 1116.19
#Molybdenum: 744.83
#Megacredits: 3408.00

That are indeed a lot of points. Thus if you win a game you get a good change to buy one or two new features or ships. But I was luck as I won the game. The question is, how much points gets one who is not in the winning team and has X planets left.

2) In another game I got in a turn where I captured 2 planets (but also lost two others)

#Duranium: 1.18
#Tritanium: 3.62
#Molybdenum: 1.02
#Megacredits: 8.00 

Thus I first would guess that during the game you get 0,59 D/1,81 T/ 0,51M / 4 MC per turn and planet? But in another turn of this game I go 1.26 D/0,84T/,56M/4 MC. Thus the formular is in deed more complex. Nevertheless it looks like one gets about 4 MC for every planet during a game and a much greater amount at the end of the game. I would guess something like:

Money: planet number * alliance factor (4 if first in winning team) * 4 MC

But there are also some unknown factors.

Nevertheless there is a good reward if you play until the end. But there should be no "allliance factor" thus a player who is not in the winning team gets the same amount of points as the players who are in the winning team.

3) At the end turns of the good running game I got e.g.:

  • Duranium: 14.84
  • Tritanium: 19.27
  • Molybdenum: 13.33
  • Megacredits: 52.00
  • If I compare this with the reward in the not so good game (many turns with 0/0/0/0) I would repeat the thesis, that the campain system in the actual point distribution "may" enhance the droppers, if there is indeed a "alliance" factor like in the normal archievment system. If there is not such a factor and every player gets at the end a similar amount (e.g. 16*planet clount at the end), then the campain system may keep the players in the games, as they would get a good reward at the end.

    2505 days, 0 hours, 12 minutes ago
    View echoclusterveteran's profile
    echoclusterveteran
    RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
    So do you get minerals just for taking a planet?  Colonizing or combat or ground attack or imperial assault?  What's to prevent friends or allies from just dropping clans on each other's planets over and over to rack up resources?

    I don't understand why you don't earn resources for what you hold in the game rather than what you do.  All things considered, colonizing a planet is not exactly a noteworthy accomplishment.
    2504 days, 23 hours, 34 minutes ago
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    othrym
    RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
    Well, it is not easy to analyse the math that may be behind that calculations. Not enough data or time to interpolate it. But during the last days if have serveral turns where there is (0/0/0/0). And in this turns if have not get a planet (or only lost one or more 8). I think there is also an influence of fighting results (ship vs ship) but i have not realized the influence until now. Maybe someone else has more experience/data. 
    2504 days, 23 hours, 8 minutes ago
    View othrym's profile
    othrym
    RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply

    Just have had a look at the turn with the

    •Duranium: 14.84
    •Tritanium: 19.27
    •Molybdenum: 13.33
    •Megacredits: 52.00

    result:

    colonized new planets:  8
    captured planets by attack: 3
    GA planets:   2
    my ship destroyed:  2
    destroyed other ships:  1

    The sum of position 1 to 3 is 13. 13*4=52.

    => Thus i would say that you get at least MC if you get planets (independant how). Maybe the destruction of ships etc. has an influence on the minerals.

    And I know believe that also my above mentioned "unknown factor" in the game end calculation was, that i have forgotten that in that last turn i also gathered some more planets.

    Thus i think the fomular may be at the last turn:

    Money : "planets got in the last turn" * 4 MC + "planet count at the end" * alliance factor *4 MC

    And the alliance factor with the same weight as in the normal archievment system (5/4/3/1). Or generally a factor of 4 ... but to confirm this we would need another game end statistic with an different alliance/rank setting.

    @ECV: and yes, perma GA planets of a (i would believe not allied) "friend" would then be indeed an exploit of the system.

    2504 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes ago
    View emork the lizard king's profile
    emork the lizard king
    RE: The new NU features BALANCE discussion threadWrite Reply
    Should we really depend on reverse engineering to find out such trivial things or is someone ;) able to save us a lot of time but just documenting the reward system?