I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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2345 days, 23 hours, 10 minutes ago

Just a quick estimate tells me that there are less than 1800 registered users on NU worldwide. Maybe I'm nuts, but considering that VGA Planets has been played for 20 years somehow I expect way more players. Am I crazy that NU is the best thing since sliced bread? Seems to me that everybody who's ever played in the last 20 years would want to get in!

2345 days, 18 hours, 19 minutes ago

frogger1108

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I'm sure this is a combination of factors:

- Many of us oldtimers don't have the time anymore, family, job, etc.

- New players are unlikely to "stumble" across VGA planets, it's not being promoted in any way.

- New player retention (if they do find the game) is probably low, gamers today are used to games that are faster, more visual and easier to get into (even after years of playing I'm sometimes surprised by some Host orders.....)

So, I fear that we are indeed a dying breed, but I intend to keep playing till I drop :)

2345 days, 16 hours, 9 minutes ago

bacchus

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I think frogger hit the nail on the head. Also combine the fact that there are websites out there that run hosts the traditional way still (I believe) and so you have the vgap world divided anyways.

On the bright side I think the population base can grow here, slowly. We do get new players on this site through whatever means. Many of them leave after a dozen turns, but you see some staying on the boards trying to learn the ins and outs of this game. Most of the younger generation don't have the patience to play a game that could take a year to resolve (hell, they'll go through 3 favourite singers in that time frame), but there are some.

2345 days, 13 hours, 25 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

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It's now a niche market and it always will be. In 1992 it was not a niche market because the graphics were as good as you'd find on any other new PC game, and the multiplayer aspect was truly new. The culture of computer games has changed and there's no going back.

However, I'm optimistic. I've been trying to be super nice to opponents/allies who are newbies, and also I've been sending some private messages to new players who post in the forums. It seems like new players get really interested after they've experienced some turns and then someone presents them with deep and detailed strategy (like taking the left/right side of the VCR, earning and spending PBP, towing things into webs, changing minefield friendly codes, etc). The reason they like it so much is that they see experienced players who are so passionate about doing everything right and they see how much we enjoy it.

Many are annoyed by how poorly documented the game is, but ironically that gives us an opportunity to add a personal touch since we can help them out individually.

Like you, Frogger, I plan to still be playing this game when I'm 90 years old, so that's why I've been trying to help it grow. I've had some success by encouraging and getting people to subscribe while also emphasizing that I'm not a shill. As soon as someone pays for Nu, it's much more likely that they will be committed, at least for the term of their subscription.

But you're right, Mark, Nu is great, and it costs a lot less than commercial games that are not nearly so enjoyable.

One last thought: this might seem like a conflict of interest since the new players that we meet in the Echo Cluster are likely to be our opponents. But if you sniff that somebody's a newbie and they blow up one of your ships, you should send them a message saying "Good job" or something like that. And if they are clearly no threat to your development within the game, heck, why not help them improve their skills rather than just wreaking a path of destruction through their empire. And if you do destroy them, be sure to communicate with them at the same time with encouraging words. The hardest thing for a new person in playing this game is that if they don't know the basics, they're inevitably going to get beaten in the worst possible way – so try and lessen the pain by being a friendly opponent. Too many guys simply act like pricks out in space and it just doesn't need to be that way.

2345 days, 11 hours, 44 minutes ago

j-zan

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This:
"One last thought: this might seem like a conflict of interest since the new players that we meet in the Echo Cluster are likely to be our opponents. But if you sniff that somebody's a newbie and they blow up one of your ships, you should send them a message saying "Good job" or something like that. And if they are clearly no threat to your development within the game, heck, why not help them improve their skills rather than just wreaking a path of destruction through their empire. And if you do destroy them, be sure to communicate with them at the same time with encouraging words. The hardest thing for a new person in playing this game is that if they don't know the basics, they're inevitably going to get beaten in the worst possible way – so try and lessen the pain by being a friendly opponent. Too many guys simply act like pricks out in space and it just doesn't need to be that way."

Echoclusterveteran has this absolutely correct. No point in rubbing salt in the wounds of someone who doesn't know the ropes. Better to help them and have better matches in the future.

2345 days, 11 hours, 42 minutes ago

bacchus

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I agree with you there echo. Just because we are blowing up each other's fleets, there is no need to be a prick about it :>

In the end, 11 players play the game and only 2 can be on the winning team. Generally-speaking at least 3-4 are completely eliminated and the rest survive. Someone's got to lose, and we all get our chance at both ends of the scale.

The learning curve in Planets is pretty steep and most new people to it don't have the patience to learn the ins and outs. Heck, most players who've played for years still learn new quirks and ins and outs (I know I do every game).

2345 days, 11 hours, 8 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

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Sorry to sound preachy, but one of the things folks are going to have to learn now that the 21st century has arrived is that the person on the other side of the screen is a human being. In 1986 the only living entity on the other side of my screen was the ducks I was shooting with my Nintendo Zapper light gun. Things are different now when you're not just playing against a computer.

I'm not just talking about Nu or about games here – cyberbullying is a really severe threat to our communities in general. Everybody's got to learn how to communicate better in this new paradigm as we start inhabiting the earth electronically. It's particularly challenging here since a great majority of Planets players are men and therefore probably biologically programmed to be domineering and culturally conditioned not to show emotion.

Planets is one niche out of millions that is bringing people together now. Certainly I have been guilty of poor behavior in the Echo Cluster so far be it from me to point fingers. There's just so much that none of us knows about the other people on here and it behooves us all at least to try to be sensitive, friendly, and welcoming.

2345 days, 9 hours, 39 minutes ago

bacchus

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Geez, it almost sounds like you are talking about someone specific :> :>

Anyways, enough about him. I agree with you entirely. We can have fun blowing up each other's fleets without being rude. And the best way to have a great game is for everyone to become better at the game. The only way to achieve that is by helping each other out and answering questions asked by both new and experienced players.

No one here wants to be the Red-Shirt in the game.

2344 days, 4 hours, 24 minutes ago

turssi

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it's probable that only those who win the first game here stay. so maybe just one in eleven stay active...

2344 days, 2 hours, 30 minutes ago

yakies1

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Not to mention the sheer amount of time required to even participate in 1 game. To play a complete turn in the mid-game took me 2 hours minimum last time I played (back around year 10!) and I couldn't spare the 6 hours a week that turned in to with three hosts.

I don't think it's fair to rail against "the kids these days and their short attention spans", but I do think that this game requires an almost fanatical dedication that takes a special kind of crazyness to develop.

I hope to come back and play sometime when I have more time on my hands!

2344 days, 0 hours, 57 minutes ago

dragondejhi

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You are correct Yakies. Sometimes a newbee will get into a game that only takes a few minutes, then finds out that the mid game takes much longer. I only play in two games maximum because it takes me 8 hours for each game. Of course some of this is staring at tiny dots on a screen and my turns can be done much shorter. But for some reason they always take about 8 hours. It's easy to get overwhelmed and to get frustrated when waiting for results.

Echo, great reminder. I find myself trying to find my inner peace when verbally attacked. I am "a little" more successful now. But I do not do enough to congratulate the great moves of others. I will do better at that. Although most of us do not play newbees anymore unless we try a new race and join a beginner game. Thanks for the reminder and I will vow to do better.... "Find my happy place. Find my happy place...."

2343 days, 18 hours, 3 minutes ago

frogger1108

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One thing for my which kept me hooked (all those years ago) was simply the fact that I was not playing some generic scifi game but I was fighting the Borg with my Battlestar, my colonists were not simply numbers but big green Gorn throwing Rocks on puny Federation captains !!

Since we were limited in our available scifi franchise, everybody could identify with the "characters" in the game.

Nowadays I think this is no longer fascinating for new players, given the amount of available scifi, be it in games, dvds, books, etc. (why imagine this dot to be a deathstar when you can play around with the "real" one in 3D ?). How many people still know the Gorn or the Crystals ?

2343 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes ago

regicide

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I would think there are close to as many people playing on Traditional sites (free ones) as there are here. Many of these websites ofter more options for games other than a standard Nu host and within the host setting. I am sure play.planets.nu plans to ofter more options in time. I know there are many i would like to see.( Multiple ship combat) Though to get the players from the other sites to join us at NU over the ones they use now, some will need to come sooner than others.

2343 days, 13 hours, 1 minutes ago

thin lizzy

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i think one of the biggest barriers is that there is absolutely no documentation.

2343 days, 11 hours, 34 minutes ago

mip40

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maybe Joshua could link to Donovans pages? That would solve the documentation problem.

http://www.donovansvgap.com/

2343 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes ago

marklein

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There's tons of documentation, http://planets.nu/documentation/intro It's just too complicated a game to describe in complete detail.

2343 days, 9 hours, 29 minutes ago

garth vader

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The game needs to start newbies in the computer blitz tutorial again and actually follow through with a real multi-turn tutorial.

I recently got a friend into the game and he would have had a hell of a time playing if I wasn't around to answer questions.

There is a lot of documentation around but people can find that intimidating. A tutorial with "tech up to this" "set your tax rate to this" "build these many factories" and a brief explanation why you are doing those things would go a long way. Once people get some bare basics down then they are ready for the documentation.

2343 days, 8 hours, 15 minutes ago

bacchus

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I agree garth. Though I think we should segregate actual newbies from experienced players who are just joining this site for the first time.

2343 days, 0 hours, 42 minutes ago

lindybomber

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VGAP 3.* never had more then 50k users world wide. The face that there are over 1k will to still play after over 20 years is amazing. It is even more amazing that there are any new users. I have shown this game to a few gamers that do play 4x style games that reaction I have gotten is an over whelming "Meh". The game really needs a top down overhaul; I have some thoughts on what that might look like which I am post some day, but a lot of folks here are not going to like it.

Lindy

2342 days, 23 hours, 55 minutes ago

bacchus

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Lindy. I think everyone on here can think of thousands of improvements to make the game different, however I think that there is a long-lasting charm in the original game (how many computer games still have a following 20+ years after they were produced?).

My take on it is that sure, VGAP is not realistic. But then neither is chess, and it is the oldest and longest-lasting strategy game in the history of civilization.

I really like the nifty little options that they have added here, and the campaign options look like fun too. I think that the best way to continue to grow this for Planets.Nu is to add lots of little add-ons that are configurable. So if you want a game with Stellar Cartography, then you choose to play in that game. If you want a plain vanilla game, then there is one of those available too. If they choose to create a phost equivalent down the road, then you can choose to play in a phost game too. Or not, if you don't want to. Variety and configurability is what will give the game lasting power around here.

2342 days, 18 hours, 5 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

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@bacchus – Geez, it almost sounds like you are talking about someone specific :> :>
Anyways, enough about him. I agree with you entirely. We can have fun blowing up each other's fleets without being rude.

I honestly have no idea whom you are talking about. I was just making a general statement. I've been here less than a year and already played with plenty of a$$holes and it just doesn't need to be that way.

@turssi – it's probable that only those who win the first game here stay. so maybe just one in eleven stay active

I imagine there are ways to track those statistics. The biggest issue is that the grand melee games that beginners get automatically thrust into have a huge number of dropouts. Then there's also the issue of victory conditions. Two "winners" out of eleven and half the map for every single game is not in the original spirit of the game at all. We need to deëmphasize winners and losers and focus on gameplay. Also for some other ideas see this thread http://planets.nu/discussion/variety-in-starting-and-victory-conditions

@yakies1 – Not to mention the sheer amount of time required to even participate in 1 game. To play a complete turn in the mid-game took me 2 hours minimum last time I played (back around year 10!) and I couldn't spare the 6 hours a week that turned in to with three hosts. I don't think it's fair to rail against "the kids these days and their short attention spans", but I do think that this game requires an almost fanatical dedication that takes a special kind of crazyness to develop. I hope to come back and play sometime when I have more time on my hands!

Again, it's a niche market and indeed something of an obsession. There are plenty of kids today that will and can get into it. And there are even new players here!! Not a huge number, but some of them are kids even. P.S. just 2 hours? You slacker! ;)

@frogger – One thing for my which kept me hooked (all those years ago) was simply the fact that I was not playing some generic scifi game but I was fighting the Borg with my Battlestar, my colonists were not simply numbers but big green Gorn throwing Rocks on puny Federation captains !! Since we were limited in our available scifi franchise, everybody could identify with the "characters" in the game.

I don't know. I didn't watch Star Trek or Star Wars until much later in life (we didn't have TV or cable at home), but I started playing Planets when I was 12. It was the intricacy of the gameplay that attracted me, not the sci-fi aspect. If people were or are attracted to the game because they got to build a Deathstar to fight against the USS Enterprise, so much the better! But that's not how I was attracted to the game. Maybe I'm the exception, but I'd like to use my experience as testimony that the sci-fi connection is not the only major contributing factor to interest in the game.

@regicide – I would think there are close to as many people playing on Traditional sites (free ones) as there are here. Many of these websites ofter more options for games other than a standard Nu host and within the host setting.

Nope, they're almost all dead. There is only one major hosting site that still offers Host 3.22 and PHost games. While it is still quite active and has enthusiastic leadership, the user base is a lot smaller than Nu.

@thin lizzy – i think one of the biggest barriers is that there is absolutely no documentation.

Exactly. This is a huge barrier. The documentation that exists on this site is all just adaptations of Tim Wisseman's VERY poorly-written Host320.doc file. There needs to be hypertexted documentation, and the vgaplanets.org site is the best contender. The problem with vgaplanets.org and the wiki-model allowing anybody to edit is that bad information, and badly-written information appears unbearably often. Consider this sentence from the documentation of the Robot race at http://www.vgaplanets.org/index.php/The_Robotic_Imperium "Golems are powerful but they are fuel pigs; they are excellent starbase defence with T1 engines." That sentence is an OPINION and opinions do not belong on pages that purport to document facts. We will never have good documentation if it is wiki-style for this reason. Just look at the damn forums. Every time anybody asks a sensible question, they get a dozen replies from people who do not actually know the answer, but have an opinion of what the answer should be. There must be a line between what the real facts are and what people think they should be. That is where real documentation is the key. The real, official documentation must not include raceguides or strategy guides for this reason.

@mjp40 – maybe Joshua could link to Donovans pages? That would solve the documentation problem.

No. Donovan's has very good-quality information but too much of it is obsolete, and many of the raceguides really suck.

@garth vader – There is a lot of documentation around but people can find that intimidating. A tutorial with "tech up to this" "set your tax rate to this" "build these many factories" and a brief explanation why you are doing those things would go a long way. Once people get some bare basics down then they are ready for the documentation.

Agreed!!! More comprehensive and intuitive tutorials would be great! Tutorials are not the same thing as documentation, though.

@bacchus – I think we should segregate actual newbies from experienced players who are just joining this site for the first time.

Probably. In the two newbie games I started at first, I was a very experienced player but did not have lieutenant ranking so could only join with the peons. As a result, I kicked ass because I was one of the only ones who actually knew what he was doing. As I said above, it's probably off-putting to newcomers to lose as badly as I decimated those guys. Most of them ended up dropping out anyway.

@lindybomber – VGAP 3.* never had more then 50k users world wide. The face that there are over 1k will to still play after over 20 years is amazing. It is even more amazing that there are any new users. I have shown this game to a few gamers that do play 4x style games that reaction I have gotten is an over whelming "Meh". The game really needs a top down overhaul; I have some thoughts on what that might look like which I am post some day, but a lot of folks here are not going to like it.

Somewhere in the dark recesses of my mind, I remember 45,000 as the number of registrations Tim Wisseman sold of Planets 3. I agree with everything you are saying. I'll be interested in reading your ideas. There are a lot of ways to overhaul the game without changing the essence of the game. The game was so popular 20 years ago because VGA monitors were new and the number of good multiplayer games that used VGA graphics were limited. The multiplayer games that existed for PCs were almost exclusively BBS door games and MUDs ... all text-based. I think a revitalization could happen if we could harness new graphical technology. I'm imagining visiting my planets and having beautiful animation that looks like Google Earth. There are ways that you could show factories and mines being built without it looking cheesy like Farmville. And combat could be improved to look like a 21st century video game rather than EGAroids. All of those things can be done without changing anything in the core of the game. A vast improvement of graphics would be the next step, in my opinion. However, with all due respect to Joshua, I think such design would be far more than he has time to do himself. It would require a whole team of professional game designers, and we would all have to pay more because it would cost a lot more to pay those people. In other words, we can dream big, but is it really realistic?

@bacchus – I really like the nifty little options that they have added here, and the campaign options look like fun too. I think that the best way to continue to grow this for Planets.Nu is to add lots of little add-ons that are configurable. So if you want a game with Stellar Cartography, then you choose to play in that game. If you want a plain vanilla game, then there is one of those available too. If they choose to create a phost equivalent down the road, then you can choose to play in a phost game too. Or not, if you don't want to. Variety and configurability is what will give the game lasting power around here.

I agree that variety and configurability will keep the base interested, but those things won't attract new players. Perhaps those are two different issues. Another thing to consider is that too much variety is off-putting to many people. On one host that I played in the mid-aughts it became almost impossible to fill a lot of games because there were options that so many people didn't like. So if you have a game that offers Raceplus, Starbase+, Exploremap, Asteroids, Jumpgate, and several other options, there is going to be somebody that doesn't like one or more of those options and doesn't join that game. As a result, people end up waiting for a really long time just to get a game started because when there are that many optional features, each such feature can become a reason for someone not to join.

2342 days, 15 hours, 21 minutes ago

smn

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Interesting discussion. I'd like to expand the discussion to another perspective: Why do you play Planets? What are the winning features that you look for in this game and makes you sacrifice all that time to it?

For me, there are two really important things that Planets offers:

1) Meaningful intelligence

Knowing your neighbours, their fleets, the equipment of those fleets, the position of those fleets, the attitudes and skills of other players is the key to victory. If you don't know what you are up against, you won't succeed, it is as simple as that.

2) Meaningful logistics

Extracting minerals, gaining taxes, selling supplies. Transporting those minerals and money, careful ship positioning, fuel logistics, torpedo logistics.

In Planets, it just isn't enough to have the most powerful fleet to win. Even the most massive of fleets can be picked apart or stranded somewhere without fuel if you don't do careful logistical planning and have good intelligence on the target.

There are very few multiplayer strategy games that come to mind that would compete on these levels. The Europa Universalis series comes to mind, but it has a host of other problems hindering the perfect multiplayer strategy experience.

Other strong selling points for Planets would be:

3) Tradition

The game has been played for two decades. People know the rules in and out and debate them. Several strategy guides have been published, several tools and support sites exist. It is not just another game.

Sure, the races are not all balanced, but there is strong tradition around them, people know the strong and weak points and the game balances itself out thanks to that. The races having sci-fi 'role models' certainly help to add to the tradition part.

4) PBEM nature

You can check the turn results in the morning, think about your plan during the day and complete the turn in the evening. If you work and have a family, the PBEM type of gaming is pretty much the only option to have any sort of serious multiplayer strategy going on. Also, you can choose to make your turn in 5 minutes or 5 hours depending on _your_ schedule. No waiting for obsessed micro-managers to finish their turn!

The list is of course longer than that, but those are sure enough good reasons for me to put up with some of the inconveniences and the hard learning curve.

2342 days, 12 hours, 47 minutes ago

iso--t

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I agree with you smn! :)

Planets is a game for intelligent people, it is like chess with the connection to those "scifi series" we love.. starwars, startrek etc. Personally I need the little fantasy part of planets.. for me, it is more satisfying to chunnel in 8 cubes than 8 playing chips..:)

And sometimes when i play Klingons, I can not resist to build Deth Specula (bird of prey), just because it is sooo beautifull..:) even in 99% situations, it is a bad choice compared to D7...

2342 days, 12 hours, 46 minutes ago

iso--t

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2342 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes ago

joshua

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Just to add some real statistics to this conversation:

Total active unique player counts:

March 24th 2013: 2597

Jan 27th 2013: 2301

Dec 30th 2012: 2163

...

Feb 13th 2011: 392

Fortunately we've seen slow but steady growth at Nu since we started in January 2011. We have a small advertising budget which brings in a small stream of new players, but the vast majority are via referrals. Along these lines.. we could benefit from more social marketing. I'm open to ideas.

2342 days, 12 hours, 0 minutes ago

bacchus

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What attracts me to this game is the turn-based nature of it. I played Tribal Wars for a little while, but having to send off attacks at a specific time got to be more than a little annoying. I do think, however, that the communication suite (forums and in-game mail) was great and helped boost the in-game communication. In my experience, the more players can communicate with each other the more association and bonding that they feel for that game and site. Quitting the game is more than just not playing anymore, it is leaving friends behind.

Back in the old days I used to play on MUDs and MUSEs a lot. I was a permanent fixture on Btech 3056 and I think that what really attracted people to that game was the ability to communicate with others who had similar interests. Sure, the mech combat was fun, but given how few simulators there were for the number of users, most people spent their time either building worlds or hanging out chatting with others. But they kept coming back, despite the troubles with code crashes and server resources bogging down during combat. And it was a great experience and I really enjoyed it.

2342 days, 11 hours, 37 minutes ago

juuso

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Everybody who uses facebook (I don't) should go and "like it" or "belong to a group" or something...

Or maybe use the "thumbs up" symbol. Can planets.nu be your "friend"?

Sorry, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

2342 days, 10 hours, 2 minutes ago

regicide

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Why I play:
PBEM (Turn based game).
I like that it is fantasy space based. (would love some new races based on newer scifi )
You play against/with real people unlike MMO were you play with people but against the AI.

A Facebook group would be great start.
There are 12 groups on facebook now about VGA planets.
facebook ads are cheap and you can target people with many criteria such as age and interests and you only pay when they click on the ad.
I do not think Twitter would work very well.

2342 days, 9 hours, 33 minutes ago

smn

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>Fortunately we've seen slow but steady growth at Nu since we started in January 2011. We have a small advertising budget which brings in a small stream of new players, but the vast majority are via referrals. Along these lines.. we could benefit from more social marketing. I'm open to ideas.

For general marketing, I reckon collecting all the main reasons why people are enthusiastic/fanatic on this game and building on those will give you the right marketing message. The game has some very unique properties and those should be emphasized.

User experience-wise, please consider prioritizing those small usability improvements that carry little risk. For example I feel the in-game messaging system could be drastically improved with relatively little investment.

2342 days, 6 hours, 36 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

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Since smn mentioned improving the messaging system, I'd like to encourage everyone to go and vote for this proposal http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/3780341-suggestion-an-inbox-

Thank you!!

2342 days, 3 hours, 14 minutes ago

valhalla

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If NU wanted to attract and keep more competitive experienced players, we would need a ranking system that gives them a chance, based on skill, of being at the very top. A level playing field based on skill. NU has come a long way since the initial very complex reinvented ranking system that was based more or less on the number of fighters you had on your capital ships (great for some races, not so good for others). However, while the ranking is much better it still is a cumulative system instead of a more dynamic running average one. Its a like a lot of FB games, if you start playing them very early after they launch, you will have a huge and likely insurmountable advantage in your ranking over someone that joins 4 months later. Additionally, Nu still hasn't effectively addressed the high drop out rates which also causes galactic chaos and less than ideal games. I estimate that normal Nu games have about a 45% dropout rate, often from races in strong positions. Someone just left my current game in turn 3!

Don't get me wrong, I think NU is GREAT. I especially like all the little tools that make the game easier to play - chunnels are so much easier than they used to be, I can look at one page of all my planets and see which taxes I need to adjust, the single player challenge games are good fun on a rainy day, etc etc etc. Also the Nu community has been great and at times has taken on some of these issues. For example, the Die Hard games (1 spot left!), where quitting is seriously discouraged mimics the low dropout rate of what a lot of used to consider a "normal" game.

However, the ranking system is still based more on "time in" - when you started and number of games played than it is on skill. Perhaps there is a good side to this - I've not been playing to win nearly as much as I used to when I was ranked on the old ladder system and I pretty much only played the Lizards. This has feed me up to experiment more with races that I'm not as good with, like the privateers (still not so good. . .). I do miss the old ranking systems that were based on skill alone (assuming X number of games in Y time period). In that system, your rep was on the line in each and every game - drops, for any reason, were losses and no one had any of this cumulative stuff to hide behind.

See you in space!

-V-

2341 days, 23 hours, 17 minutes ago

navyss

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The difficulty is that this site is hard to find. I have spent the entire weekend trying to find out how to play VGA Planets version 3.5 on my computer so I could introduce my 12 year old sons to the game. It was the end of the third day before I found the site. I have not played since they were born and Battlestar Command Bridge shut down but wanted to restart. There is a great opportunity to reach people by linking to the Planets webring and Circus Maximus even though the web ring seems abandoned. What about a page on Facebook that we could join and like or post to. I have some friends I played with when we started in 94 while in the Navy and I just found out 2 of them still play because of the Facebook link to Circus-Maximus. They are both running their computers in 32 bit instead of 64 on Vista. It is difficult to get the old program to work on new computers especially Windows7. The players are out there. The information is not. I was worried about restarting but the strategies came right back when I started. I just can't remember the torpedo and beam costs and damage/kill rates. This information should be available prior to buying the tech so you can know which tech to upgrade to. There is some other simple information that would be nice to have readily available. I also like the old ship pictures because those are what I know. .

2341 days, 23 hours, 1 minutes ago

valhalla

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Welcome back!

You should be able to see the costs and kill/damage of beams and torps in your SB before buying them. And if you make a mistake, you can "undo" by selling back. I think this works as long as it is in the same turn and not in an active ship build.

2341 days, 11 hours, 18 minutes ago

dtolman

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Some thoughts on what this game needs to succeed:
1) It needs marketing. Doesn't need to be expensive, but something to get word of mouth on there.
-It needs to come up on search engines. Do a search on Online Strategy Games on google. Planets.nu doesn't even show up. Try Free Turn Based Strategy Games. Turn Based Strategy Game. Free Strategy Game.
Nothing! Do some basic search engine optimization at the very least, get yourself on the search engines.
-It should have a facebook presence of some sort
-The product is maturing. Once Josh is happy with where the UI (and stability is), he should get it out in front of the gaming press, get some reviews or at least mention

2) The New User experience needs a serious look at. Josh has done a great job in improving this - but there is still more work to go. Users should be sent down a path of gentle handholding (tutorials, simplified games, special smaller games for users with new accounts) before getting into the fully fleshed game. The tutorials should also prompt users on best practices to help streamline turn time (using the checkboxes to keep track of which units you've given orders to, using the ship list view, etc).

3) The UI needs a LOT more work to help streamline turn taking. A lot of turn taking time is spent in busy work (I see a lot of posts about 2 hour turns. Way too long - even with 150+ ships I can take my turns in less than half that time).

A lot of my mods (ship list, updated map view, etc) were designed to help speed up my turn taking, catch easily made mistakes, and visualize data quickly. I have more I'm thinking of rolling out to help with moving large groups of ships easily. These types of features should be the centerpiece of the next generation UI so all players can use them, and not just the subset of users that stumble over the mods.

Ease of use features like these should be prioritized at this point. The game looks fine. But turn taking could be greatly streamlined with some UI changes.

2341 days, 9 hours, 11 minutes ago

navyss

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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As I read the posts and try to get back into the game after a 10 year absence, I realize that one of the problems for a new player is the slow start. I have joined 3 of the melee games and they are all in turn 1,2, or 3. These turns take 5 minutes and then a 24 hr wait. I want to join more games for play time but I know the turns take longer later and I don't want to get overwhelmed later when they are in turns 15 and later.

I am not able to enter more advanced non melee games because you need to be a lieutenant. I am not even sure how to become a lieutenant. There are some points of the game that need clarification and increased understanding or at least easier access to the information.

This would help the younger users and increase the retention rate for the players. I am bringing my kids into the game but I am not sure they will stay. I am also not sure I will pay for them to play long term. I already have registered versions of VGA planets and if I could overcome the difficulty of the 64 bit/32 bit question I will probably move over to Circus or High Command. I like the online version and the transfer of turns is definitely simplified. Especially if you are in multiple games.

I like the idea that dtolman has about the checkboxes. How many times have you went through your shiplist at the beginning of the turn and then had to go through again towards the end because you could not remember if that was this turn for this game or another game? Unfortunately I am not a programmer or a visionary so I have to accept and either love or dislike what other people create but that is what I get.

2341 days, 8 hours, 44 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Joshua, hiring an SEO consultant to go through the site for a few hours might be a very good investment. It seems like something of a dark art and there are people who specialize in it exclusively.

2341 days, 8 hours, 14 minutes ago

marklein

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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LOL! You guys foget that Geographical Media is a web development company. They know as much about SEO as they need to. ;-)

I want to point out that a lot of the problems with NU that people are raising aren't new. It has always taken a day or two to get your turns back, but VGAPv3 still thirved to a point. I like most people got into v3 because some friends were playing it, and I suspect that will remain the most reliable way for NU to gain new players as well. No matter what NU is only going to be popular with a niche group of gamers (unless you make it into something that simply isn't VGAP anymore). We just need to make sure that ALL the old timers know about NU to reach that critical mass.

2341 days, 7 hours, 22 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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I know Joshua knows what he is doing as a web developer :) but when I had a personal website for self-marketing I hired somebody to do the SEO, and they got me to the top of Google for anybody in my field. I still don't know how they did it. But I'll bet there are people out there who would know how to get Nu among the top results in a search for "space strategy game".

2341 days, 6 hours, 55 minutes ago

lindybomber

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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>Total active unique player counts: March 24th 2013: 2597

Joshua, are those unique active accounts or does that include all accounts created. I would expect there to be a lot of "click through" account and one gamers.

2341 days, 6 hours, 44 minutes ago

joshua

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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That is active accounts. There have been around 10500 signups.

2341 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes ago

lindybomber

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Bacchus / EchoClusterVertan

The tricky part of any overhaul is to preverse the spirit of the game. I have talked to plenty of people to play CIV games or Sins of the Galactic Empire that will tell me VGAP needs to be more like their game. VGAP does not need to become another game, but there are lessons and ideas to be gained from other games while preserving the spirit of VGAP. I have a lot of ideas in my head about how to do that, but they are disconnected and at time contradictory. If we ever get to to the point where Planets-Nu and move on to Planets-Next then I will post something. Until then we need to focus on what can be done to improve the the 3.* platform. I might post something on that matter this week.

Lindy

2341 days, 6 hours, 0 minutes ago

valhalla

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Since the very beginning of planets people have been trying to improve it. Lots of ideas, lots of addons, etc for about 2 decades now. Almost all, but not all, severely unbalance the game. One frequent target is the 500 ship/planet/mine field limit. Back in the day, that limit was needed due to limiting processing power. Today, our computers can stream video. However, changing things does effect the game, usually for the worse.

There already is a more modern planets game - VGA Planets 4. Very few of us play it. There is a reason for that. In the spirit of both "more is better" and "new is better" it had more planets and more races and more ships. . . and takes a normally very long strategy game and makes much much longer. People didn't like managing economies so they got rid of that only to replace it with something else. . . that was worse.

Lots of changes to the core of the game change the game. Often from who has the best strategy in a fixed game to who can adapt to and exploit the latest tinkering the best. Let's move forward and make doing things easier but not change how things work in the classic core game. A lot of us like Planets because it is not a modern game with lots of great graphics but with very limited strategy. In a world flooded with pay to win and click to win FB games thankfully there is still planets.

Planets is balanced with lots of different ways to win. Every game is different. There isn't a single optimal strategy. When I describe it to people I often compare it to chess. Both the spirit and the mechanics are fine as they are, we don't need to fix what ain't broken. What does help is continued interface enhancements to make doing the things we already doing easier as well as things like the mini games to help new players learn and for something to do on rainy days.

2340 days, 20 hours, 3 minutes ago

thin lizzy

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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product / price: 10k / 300 is too low - the conversion barrier is too high.
placement / promotion: More 'as it really is' promotion, the content decides about the strategy. seo is an hygiene factor.
process / pamper: Do you really know your target group?
personnel / package: though the product is web, it might be a good thing to think about

2339 days, 18 hours, 6 minutes ago

frogger1108

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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I agree that changing the 'product' is not a good idea, it's been around for 20 years and people like it more or less as it is, in my opinion it has stood the test of time.

What can and should be improved is the GUI, NU has done a fantastic job in this regard and I'm sure a lot of the still missing thing will be implemented.

As many people said, what this game need is

1) Advertising, optimise planets for google, place some Facebook adds, and so on, nothing expensive

2) New player experience. As already mentioned, planets is too slow for new players, you don't know what you will get into after a few turns, resulting in many early sign ups and quits once the games reache turn 15.

Besides providing a good manual, why don't you also provide a video step by step guide ? This would be cheap to make, you only need a voice over and can make tutorials for many scenarios. The first 15 turns and how complexity improves, how minefields are layed and ships move and so on, since the new players don't see the result of their actions for quite some time, a video would provide the link between the commands and the results a turn later.

2339 days, 16 hours, 52 minutes ago

valhalla

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Use the video to send the new players twd player vs computer 1 on 1 games. Instant results. We can teach a few basic concepts at a time instead of the sink or swim vs vets in the main games. Then move them on to P vs P 1 on 1. Etc.

And find a way to penalize frequent droppers in normal games. We have been saying that for years.

2339 days, 6 hours, 1 minutes ago

mip40

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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very good summary, frogger.
and the video idea is great.

i played vgaplanets 20 years ago and when my friends invited me to this page last year, i at first didn't like the site just because the whole handling was not very intuitive for me (simple things, switching from starmap to ship, messing up the waypoint as i wanted to move to the next ship etc.). Think everyone had similar experience and if my friends didn't give me a short online-overview via skype i would have left again. I'm happy that i didn't.

with the champions- and ranking system and the enthusiastic forum community i think the users will at least stay stable for the next years. And if the tutorial video and a better advertisement is established, i'm sure this site will even grow in popularity.

2339 days, 1 hours, 30 minutes ago

lindybomber

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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frogger1108, I am sorry to say this; but there is only so much that can be done by improve the interface. There are in fact some serious short comings with the core "product".

The biggest single problem with the core product is the way special friendly codes work and ship special abilities work. The special friendly codes were a way for Tim to add content without having to send every player a patch disk and hope they understand how to use it. This is no longer a problem. The whole special code layout needs to be scraped and reworked. I think the best way to do this would be to move most of the special codes to mission parameters. Special ship functions and other stuff that is not directly related to a current primary mission can be moved to a "secondary mission" list with there own mission parameters. Combat order should be moved to a "Combat Order Code". Friendly codes could probably be removed from ships, or moved to a transfer mission parameter. This will mean there will be a few changes to things a ship can do at one time (like making torps while laying x number of torps) which will change the core product.

The next big thing that needs to change is is how ship movement and transfer orders are given. I spend more time trying to remember why a freighter went to planet X and or writing notes to myself then planing combat. There needs to be a way to tell a ship to go here, do that, then go over there and do something else, repeat. STARS! had a workable system for this borrowing some ideas from there might be worth while.

Third is the ship building que. The current system has always been a weak point, based on some of his comments in the original read.me file I do not think he expect the que to be reach so quickly and so full. I vague remember the building que as something that might come up late in a game-I think he tested the game with super poor minerals and no alchemy. The building que needs to be complete reworked and possible mineral quantities and mining rates.

There is more I could post, but I think I have made my point. Sorry for the thread hijack.

2339 days, 0 hours, 58 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Sorry Lindy, but NOOO.

With all due respect, don't you see that the consensus here is that the core game should not be changed?? That would be the very best way to lose the base (those of us who played throughout the 90s and the aughts), which constitutes what, maybe 75% of the players?

I am sorry because I do not mean for this message to sound rude. I simply disagree with almost everything you just said. For experienced players, the build queue is sacred. So are battle values. So are friendly codes and ship missions. We have spent years refining strategies based on these quirks of the game. The great thing about the campaign features is that they, for the most part, build on the essence of the game as it is.

Your statement is indeed an important contribution to the discussion, and you haven't hijacked the thread by making it. But this is VGA Planets and not Stars! Again, I don't mean to sound crass, but those who want to play Stars should go play Stars. It's a complicated game, and learning (and continuing to learn) all the rules and all the ins and outs is what makes the base continue to love the game and continue to learn. For instance, I just learned the other day that a Loki doesn't work with more than 20% damage. I'm not sure how I missed that, because that's a pretty basic fact; however in trying to become a good player everyone simply has to continue learning both rules and strategy. I can't prove this, but I'd venture to guess that the vast majority of seasoned players don't want to learn a whole new set of rules and strategy. What would be the implications of changing the fact that you can't lay a partial payload as a minefield while making more torpedoes since you can't set friendly codes mdq and mkt at the same time?!?! What would be the implications of allowing more than one foreign transfer in a turn?! What would be the implications of allowing starbases to beam things up selectively without the use of base orders? Those quirks are at the very heart of advanced play and it is important that they stay the way they are because our thinking about the game and our strategies have been developed over 20 years and continue to be developing all the time.

I'm really not as conservative or as resistant to change as it sounds. However, there are a large number of "gamey" features that make VGA Planets what it is. The surest way to lose the large base of seasoned players would be to change those core features that you mention. Many of us can recite the ship list and the host order by heart and we have developed very elaborate strategies based on a great deal of consideration of each of those things. I'm pretty sure that most others will agree, but again I can't prove it – though it sure seems like the consensus in this thread is that bug-fixing and cosmetic improvements and better marketing is what we need.

2339 days, 0 hours, 22 minutes ago

valhalla

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I agree with ECV. Much of the core market does not want the core game messed with. Sure Lindy, a drop down menu for friendly codes might be better - I'm OK with that.

But I draw the line at changing how the game works! Messing with the core game almost always makes things worse. Ships cloaking, hissing, making mines, scanning up a mine field all at the same time? No thanks! In turn based games there are limits on what you can do in a single turn for good reason.

The game is balanced now. I can't even begin to imagine all the unintended consequences that unlimited missions per turn would have!

Removing friendly codes would also eliminate a lot of the get on the left side strategy that many expert players use and yet again change the core game.

I different slightly with ECV as I'm OK with the Stars idea - with being able to schedule a freighter to do a repetitive task that I already do by hand. For me helpers that make doing what players already do are a good thing but changing the core game is a terrible idea.

The ship build limit is a central part of the game. If you want it to come later, there is already a mechanism to do that, simply play in less rich worlds.

VGA planets is a very long game - already it is so long that almost half the players in Nu quit before finishing an average game. Already some complain about how long the game is. If the ship limit comes even later the game, which can last over a year, it will take even longer. . .

If all races could build ships after the ship limit the balance of the game would suffer severely. Lets look at two races I know relatively well, the Lizards vs the Borg. As it is now, all things being equal, in the early game, the Liz are very strong and can wipe the floor with the Borg. In the end game, the Borg can destroy the Lizards. As things are now there is balance.

Now imagine the end game with no ship limit. The borg are chunneling in fleets of LDSF full of supplies from assimilated planets with 6 mil borg to merlins at any and all SBes. Almost nothing is stopping the production of fleets of cubes each turn. The Borg chunnel with just 50 fuel. Merlins at SBes are building 4 or more cubes per TRex that the Liz builds the hard way. Each turn fleets of cubes are then chunneled to the front for another 50 fuel. Each Biocide takes out 2-3 TRexes (most of which the Liz cant even move to keep up as he used what fuel he had to get minerals to build the ships he has). The Borg's already huge end game advantage just increased by an order of magnitude. The game becomes unbalanced and unplayable. Even Thin Lizzy stops playing the Lizards. . .

A lot of people don't think things through like this when they make suggestions that mess with the core game.

Again, go play Planets 4 and see if you like all those well meaning "improvements" or not. Seriously. Some of your ideas were implemented.

2339 days, 0 hours, 8 minutes ago

bacchus

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valhalla. I think the discussion around removing the ship limit also typically involves bringing in other ways to control the size of fleet a player can build. My suggestion was to give players a certain number of crew members allowed per colonist population in all of their planets combined (with a modifier applied to the Borg for obvious reasons).

That said, I agree with you guys that changing the core game would be wrong. I understand where Lindy is coming from, but where I think that goes is taking great ideas from Planets and then building a new game incorporating other features from other games. The reason the 2000+ players are registered on this site is to play VGAP. The vast majority of them played 20 years ago and want to play the same game again now.

Automation tools that allow you to build a more automated economy would be a big PLUS from me, though. That doesn't change the core game. Not sure how you would swing it, but it would make things easier.

2338 days, 23 hours, 58 minutes ago

valhalla

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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I agree bacchus. Seems like I've seen almost 2 decades worth of ideas of how to change planets - different ship lists, worm holes, space weather, hidden artifacts, new races, diff economy, no ship limit, etc etc etc most of them destroy the balance of the game in ways that their creators didn't think of.

I'm all for making a totally new game (like Planets 4) and seeing if it can also stand the test of time. I just don't want the classic core game messed with just as I wouldn't want someone to decide to "improve" the game of chess.

Here here for Nu's automation and little helpers. Most of us love those improvements. If there was a "min/max this planets taxes and growth" button I'd check it in a second!

2338 days, 23 hours, 50 minutes ago

garvon

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Hi Joshua,

I teach Internet marketing, so feel free to contact me for some marketing ideas. My phone number is 1-866-413-0951.

Garland Coulson

http://GarlandCoulson.com

2338 days, 22 hours, 45 minutes ago

marklein

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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I vote against easy, push-button economic tools. Economic strategy is PART of the game and players who are poor at it suffer. Why should those players get a free pass to economic prosperity? They should not.

2338 days, 22 hours, 7 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Sorry, I mis-read Lindy's statement about Stars! and the automation features, and was just was just reacting to Lindy's general sentiment in my less-than-tactful statement that "those who want to play Stars! should go play Stars!"

I have no opinion on those kinds of automation features or, in Mark's words, "push-button economic tools."

But let me say this in response: For years I used Randmax and Randgen, and I wrote a number of batch programs to run other command-line third-party tools whose names I can no longer remember. None of these were push-button economic tools; they required intricate knowledge of the game and you had to go in and edit the INI file for each of those utilities to tell it exactly what you wanted it to do. Then I actually played my turn using VPA and only touched the mouse to set waypoints. VPA has more than 100 hotkeys – more than WordPerfect. In less than a second you could change the view on the screen to get exactly the perspective you wanted. Turns here that take me 4 hours would take me 30 minutes if I could use hotkeys. I could type TMIULXC to turn off everything on the starmap to only see ships and planets to analyze position without looking at minefields and ion storms. I could push F9 to draw a circle and Shift+F9 for a HYP circle. You could build factories and mineral mines with an arrow-key interface like we have here, or you could just use the keypad to type in the number you wanted to build. On a ship screen you would hit U to unload everything or Alt+U to unload all ships, but it was also intuitive enough to, for instance, unload the credits but not the clans from a Lady Royale unless you pushed U again. You could also push L to Load&build mkt torpedoes instantly or lfm fighters if you were playing a free-fighter race. Alt+I would instantly tell you where your ship would be dragged by an ion storm.

In short, once you learned how to do it, the menial tasks were bam bam bam, done!! There was nothing simple about it, but it sure was efficient.

I love Nu, I love the players here, and I love the community, but I hate the fact that it takes three or four times as long to play a turn here. I can't tell you how much I long for an interface with a full compliment of hotkeys that do not require the mouse. Several dozen hotkeys and move-or-type input fields could be added without changing the way the screen looks at all. And the newbies can still use the mouse.

2336 days, 12 hours, 49 minutes ago

macummi

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Well, I am a newby (to this site - not to planets). So far I think it is excellent, and the interface is a great improvement on the original.

I personally would not want to see the game changed significantly - I played a game in VGAP 4 and really didn't like it vs 3.

Here's to good (and friendly) battles with all concerned.

2335 days, 18 hours, 36 minutes ago

mcbr501

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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I like play.planets.nu. I think the main advantage is that it is open in the sense that it can be changed, updated, fixed and so forth. "Tim Host" is closed in that sense, and I don't think there has been any revisions since Host999.

At the same time I am looking at other sites too and using my Winplan client (I have Dosplan too - but I do not intend to use that!).

And there is a lot of VGAP 3.x documentation out there ... old, outdated, not entirely accurate at times, but sufficient for a new player to get a feel of VGAP. If I look hard enough, I know I even have VGAP 2.x, somewheres :)

I will continue to play on play.planets.nu -- but there are advantages to the client version (I run it in a Windows 7 Virtual Machine -- shoot you can run it in a Windows 9x VM). I like being able to whip out my Campaign Editor, create a star map for testing (lets see, Feds vs Borg vs Robots) and seed the HW with 50,000 MC, 10,000 each mineral, SB T10 everything, and each race gets 3 Meteors at their SB. In a test universe, I want to test certain things quickly and not spend time building an economy to build ships to test what I want to test. That is also the advantage of Tim Host - besides all the add-ons, results are relatively consistent between a test universe and a real game - because it is the same host running. I am not convinced of a "private game - test universe" and an actual game in planets.nu - I have seen some strange results in my test private games.

And yes, most VGAP players I have played with in the past has been through word of mouth, referrals and so forth. I got started because a coworker said "hey let's try this game" and soon about 8 of us in our office were playing, then we added friends who weren't in our office, and they added friends ... and then I put up a BBS to host, and so on and so on (hey, those long distance dial up charges added up !!!).

And I really like the turn-based game play. I am an old Avalon Hill and SSI board war-gamer (plus a old D&D (that's D&D, not AD&D)) so I appreciate strategic or tactical games over the RPG or similar. My son (he is also a member on planets.nu) likes games like Counterstrike and so on. I just never got into that kind of game. I do like some video games (Donkey Kong anyone? Missile Command - even had a Trak Ball) ... but games like East Front for the Atari computers, or SSI General Series or Empire Deluxe (yay) are more my style - which makes VGAP my style too.

For all the newbies out there - keep plugging away, for all it's faults, VGAP is a great game. Look at it this way ... I think it was about $15 for the DOS client and maybe $20 for the Windows Client (maybe I paid less because I was also a beta tester), that was the most value for the money for any game I have ever paid; I still have my 3.5 inch disks to prove it :-)

* now if only I could find an external 5.25 inch HD drive, I might be able to port some really old stuff *

2335 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Let me know if you ever find an external 5.25 USB .... I have been looking for one also.

2335 days, 14 hours, 5 minutes ago

deadeye

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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you can also play vgap on dosbox .... the winplan host will run in dos and you can use vpa as client . spacelord computer player will also run in dos .... dosbox on either windows or linux

2335 days, 13 hours, 14 minutes ago

streu

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> I like play.planets.nu. I think the main advantage is that it is open in the sense that it can be
> changed, updated, fixed and so forth. "Tim Host" is closed in that sense, and I don't think there
> has been any revisions since Host999.

Sure "Tim Host" can be changed. There are gazillions of add-ons and new ship lists, and if you don't like them, you're free to make your own.

--Stefan

2334 days, 2 hours, 1 minutes ago

lindybomber

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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I understand how emotionally invested some players are in keeping the game in its classic form, but there are a few hard realities that need to be faced. First of all there were at planets 3.* peak 45k to 50k legally registered players-that was pretty good for 1990s shareware published by one guy. How many of those players still play the game today? 5k? Maybe 10K? Even if all of those players migrate to NU and cough up the dough that is not going to be a large enough of an income stream to give Josh and company a reasonable return on investment and eventually even those players are going to get old and die.

In order for this site to work the player base needs to be expand greatly. Based on my (admittedly limited) experience with trying to introduce the game to new players I do not believe just changing the front end will be enough.

The whole concept of special FCs alone is EXTREMELY off putting to new players, they are very confusing and feel "tacked on" (which they are). The improvements to the interface help some, but the system still had that "tacked on" feel. If you read my previous comments carefully you will see that primary missions 1 through 0 would still be mutually exclusive (no sweeping mines while cloaked). The only real significant change would be things you can do and will set your combat order. This would benefit torp races a little more then fighters, but would not destroy the over all balance of the game.

Multi way points and transfers can be done in such a way that preserved the one waypoint-mission-transfere per turn. Thus would have no real effect on game balance

The current building que is more of a choke point then anything else. It keeps turns a reasonable size, but it slows the game down and causes them to require more turns to win. VGAP 4 had a really good mechanism for allocating object IDs, I think some ideas could be borrowed from there. It is one of the things I like better in V4 then V3. I also thing minerals per planet and/ or planets per map, and alchemy rates need to be looked at.

The spirit of planets is more then just the sum of its features, it is much more existential then that. There can always be a place for "classic VGAP" but limiting the game to its 1990's incarnation will not grow the game. Growth requires change and regarding this feature or that feature as sacred is not productive or healthy. If you want steak you have to kill a few sacred cows.

Lindy

PS I'm really glad I did not post my thoughts on the problems with the VCR and ship list

2334 days, 1 hours, 22 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Lindy, it's not an emotional connection to these things. We're not emotionally attached to the queue or the ship limit, but we know that a change like that actually changes the object of the game in which you attempt to convert someone else's loss into your own gain. Changing it makes it no longer a zero-sum game according to academic game theory. With an entirely different object of the game, you can no longer call it VGA Planets.

The concept of special friendly codes isn't confusing the new interface, as they are clearly explained in the client interface. You pick the code and the code does what you tell it to do.

All ships are allowed one mission, one code, one foreign transfer, and one waypoint per turn. Changing the function of ships changes the entire gameplay, since ships are the capital of the game. Therefore it would no longer be VGA Planets.

I maintain that what needs to happen is primarily (1) bug-fixing, (2) speeding up and refining the interface in play.planets.nu, and (3) cosmetic improvements that make the game look like a 21st century game but retain the charm of its origins. Those things can be done, and frankly, Joshua has done such an outstanding job that I believe he alone has enough creativity to continue to improve the site.

Lindy, there is one thing that you said early in this thread, and according to the general consensus here, you hit the nail on the head. >> "I have some thoughts on what that might look like which I am post some day, but a lot of folks here are not going to like it."

2333 days, 23 hours, 23 minutes ago

valhalla

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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"In order for this site to work the player base needs to be expand greatly."

This site is working just fine right now. And it continues to get better.

Yes, this game is not and will never be Call of Duty or any other major game and path to riches. Not everything that is good in the world is done to get rich.

VGAP 4 may be great at allocating IDs, but that is not something I as a player care about. The game play in 4 is a very poor comparison to 3.5. If "allocating IDs" is what makes a great game for you, then version 4 sounds like a better choice. Personally, I want a balanced competitive game where I can focus on strategy instead of adapting to supposed "improvements" that almost always make the race choices unbalanced or the game take 3 times longer or randomly (Go Fish in space?) suck ships into black holes or some other non-skill based random silliness.

The current build que forces conflict. Players have to fight to earn build points. Fighting moves the game along toward an end. No ship build limits means players can sit and hoard indeffinately. . .

I want my steak to stay as steak, and not be turned into tofu.

Finally, you can of course go ahead and create a new planets like game and see if people play it and you become rich. No one here is stopping you. Your potential market is trying to tell you something though.

2333 days, 17 hours, 51 minutes ago

veldan

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Actually, we had a big discussion about the secondary missions about 2 years ago, and if implemented correctly, they would have a negligible change on the core game play.

Let's see if I can dig up the thread....

http://planets.nu/discussion/petition-to-eliminate-friendly-codes-add-your-vote

I think the summary of that discussion would be as follows;

fcodes moved to secondary missions, secondary missions automatically set combat order to 1000. Combat Order set to current box meant for fcodes. Raw battle code value visible somewhere on the GUI (taking Kill and PE into factor).

Things not discussed in that thread but IMO are natural extensions of the discussion as it went;

Matching fcodes - Could be reimplemented by having some secondary missions will prevent combat if two enemy ships are performing them at the same location(which is true now some special fcodes match, others do not). And if two ships have the same battle order they do not fight. Capturing an unsuspecting ship at a starbase, or preventing ship to planet battles would follow the same exceptions for battle order matching. Also starbases/planets could have a special secondary mission called mission interdictor... or something like that... where the player gets a choice of all the secondary missions that prevent combat / allow surrender as a menu choice.

Still not 100% perfect, would need some input from a real borg player on how to better incorporate chunnelling.

However, with the improvements Josh has made to the interface over the past two years, it would seem to me that the amount of effort to implement secondary missions and debug them are probably not worth it. He has done a decent job of incorporating most of the special fcodes into the GUI (except for cln and gsX). It might seem more like microsoft's triennial effort to confuse their users by hiding menu options... I mean releasing a new version of Office.

I'd rather see more energy be directed at updating the client side actions to reduce the amount of time it takes to run a turn. Better compatibility between user scripts, I have a preferred suite of scripts I'd like to run that when run together completely hose up the client. Some ability to perform offline actions. But above all of that a seamless messaging system, so I can reply to diplomacy from whatever email box I am at, rather than have to log into the game. Why can't each game include a player inbox for that game? veldan.69635@vgaplanets.nu?

2333 days, 13 hours, 1 minutes ago

j-zan

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Just a quick comment:
While I played VGA3 back in the 90s, I was young and barely knew what I was doing ... So when I found Nu I considered myself something of a new player. I did remember from the past that FC's would do important things (like set combat value, or engage special missions) ... but I had very little experience or memory of which were which.

I did NOT find the interface all that helpful or intuitive. Now that I'm back in the swing, the interface is usable - but if I didn't know to look at Friendly Codes for "special missions"; it could be quite a bit of time before I found them. So I don't think it's "fine the way it is."

However, like Veldan, I think the little bit of resources that Joshua and Co can devote to Planets shouldn't be to overhaul a "secondary mission" thing -- I'd rather see better "Training" for new players. Those could teach new players how to use the FC's - and that's probably a "good enough" fix for the counter-intuitive nature of the system.

For what it's worth - it strikes me that new player retention might go up if we could build full sectors with (somewhat intelligent) AI controlled races. The blitz games are too short/different from standard maps to be helpful - and what better training ground than competing against a CPU in the real thing? It's also allow for more "instant action" that might prevent new folks from joining too many games. I know I would have benefited quite a bit from the opportunity to play my own private world against a few CPUs.

2333 days, 12 hours, 11 minutes ago

streu

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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> The whole concept of special FCs alone is EXTREMELY off putting to new players, they are very
> confusing and feel "tacked on" (which they are). The improvements to the interface help some,
> but the system still had that "tacked on" feel. If you read my previous comments carefully you
> will see that primary missions 1 through 0 would still be mutually exclusive (no sweeping mines
> while cloaked). The only real significant change would be things you can do and will set your
> combat order. This would benefit torp races a little more then fighters, but would not destroy the
> over all balance of the game.

Since 1995, there has been an implementation of a VGA Planets Host that tried to eliminate fcodes as special missions. Thus, it has been tried to remove fcodes, but it never was uncontroversial.

> Multi way points and transfers can be done in such a way that preserved the one waypoint-
> mission-transfere per turn. Thus would have no real effect on game balance

Those have been implemented client-side in Winplan and PCC. Not being able to do them on host-side has always been a problem. This is one thing where an integrated solution could shine.

> The current building que is more of a choke point then anything else. It keeps turns a
> reasonable size, but it slows the game down and causes them to require more turns to win.
> VGAP 4 had a really good mechanism for allocating object IDs, I think some ideas could be
> borrowed from there. It is one of the things I like better in V4 then V3.

Actually, I believe the build queue to be one of the better parts of VGAP 3 (especially in its PHost PBP implementation). Because everything else is worse. Programmers think, "hey, this will never happen". Most games have unit limits. But they are not documented and don't have well thought-out rules. For example, when you hit the unit limit in Dune2, you don't get a unit, but your money is gone anyway. From what I gather, V4 has a similar problem: the unit limit has been raised to a really big number, "hey, this will never happen". Until it happened and everyone went crazy.

> I also thing minerals per planet and/ or planets per map, and alchemy rates need to be
> looked at.

Decent Master programs have all these configurable.

> The spirit of planets is more then just the sum of its features, it is much more existential then
> that. There can always be a place for "classic VGAP" but limiting the game to its 1990's
> incarnation will not grow the game. Growth requires change and regarding this feature or that
> feature as sacred is not productive or healthy. If you want steak you have to kill a few sacred
> cows.

This site already killed a sacred cow by dropping compatibility. Now it has to bite the bullet in redoing everything that has been done during the previous two decades of VGA Planets.

Another approach could have been to rebuild only the parts that suck. This is the approach I am following.

> PS I'm really glad I did not post my thoughts on the problems with the VCR and ship list

I would have a few nice replies to that, too. For example FLAK combat or the TList and PList ship lists.

--Stefan

2333 days, 12 hours, 0 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Veldan,

In response to your "inbox" comment....

http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/3780341-suggestion-an-inbox-

Please go vote!!!

2333 days, 10 hours, 52 minutes ago

bacchus

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Part of the situation with the ship limit is that the game was originally designed with low mineral levels and I suspect no alchemy ships (though I know they were there from the first release, I suspect it was designed without them). If you have poor mineral quantities and if your alchemy production is harder (maybe change the ratio at which they convert supplies) suddenly the build costs of ships would actually matter. Right now the mineral cost of construction is irrelevant except in the very early game.

Really, my suggestion is to enhance configurability. If I can create a game that has a poor universe and toned down alchemy and I get 11 players to play in it, that would be the best proving ground for ideas. I think making everything super configurable would make it easier to find the best solutions to these issues. I love the game, but I also enjoy seeing new ideas implemented and giving them a try. Stellar Cartography is a great addition to the game, though I am sure that some people don't enjoy it. Make it flexible and then people can configure to their own tastes.

2333 days, 10 hours, 15 minutes ago

marklein

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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I'm reasonably certain that the whole FC/mission situation could indeed be improved WITHOUT changing the game mechanics in any way. It's amazing what some rewording and a different UI can do in terms of making something more intuitive. I'll put some thought into it soon.

And @ j-zan... YES! Some decent AI opponents would be GREAT on so many levels. It would improve problems with dropped players and training games right off the top of my head.

2333 days, 9 hours, 44 minutes ago

valhalla

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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I've been playing since 95 and I have a real hard time remembering anything before 3.X. In 3.x the changes that I do remember were small fine tuning things to balance the races - I think the birds (super spy, advanced cloak?) were a concern and may have been tweaked to make the birds more competitive.

Yes, we all seem to always play in what back then we would call "very rich" universes with "very large" starting populations, and lots of seed cash for tech, these days.

It wasn't always so. This was done primary due to player demand. The game is very long and starting with rich settings decreases the time of economic development and exploration and shortens the time until players start fighting thereby shortening the game. Yes there were alchemy ships but under "normal" (now called poor) settings getting the 700 Dur to build one was a huge task. It took a lot of time to get $ to get SB techs up, build the freighters needed to move pop needed to mine up the fuel needed and the minerals needed. Also, with less pop the amount of supplies a race could make was reduced as well. The alchemy ships are fine, have been with us for a very long time, and aren't really a problem. But I do hear and understand what you are saying. Always playing on very rich everything does change the game.

Back then, an argument was made by some that these "normal"/poor games were better for new players as they lived longer. While this was certainly true, not much happened for quite a while and a lot of new players got board. When war did come, as it always does, the experienced players had clearly managed their resources much better. . . I would argue that the differential in power was even greater. The games lasted even longer with the effect that fewer ever finished.

In the rich universes that we all play in now, the action comes a lot sooner. The scarce resource switches from minerals to time. All races will only have so much time before the ship build hits and fleet construction becomes much harder/slower. PBP, instead of minerals, become the new "weak link" currency that limits fleet expansion for most races.

As for stellar cartography, a lot of people like it. It is just more random junk to me. Junk that reduces the role of skill and increases the randomness. Already in my current game I've been under 2 frustrating ion storms for the first 25 turns that have really limited my early growth. Some random weather is OK but to much becomes "go fish" in space. I admit it, I prefer skill based games (chess) over random games (roulette) - not everyone does. With ion storms, enemy mine fields, web mine fields, cloakers, decloakers and intelligent enemy strategy there is enough to worry about w/o adding even more randomness. Also, small ship (cloaking) races usually get punished harder by space weather. I'd rather compete vs enemy strategy with some level of weather than weather with some level of enemy strategy. Different strokes. . .

We do agree on the core of what you said - more flexibility in the configuration would be great.

I would also suggest that once a game is posted and players start signing up, it should not be changed unless all players agree. Changing the victory and/or game conditions after people have signed up is poor form in any game or sport. It is even worse if the game has already started.

Your mileage may vary!

-V-

2122 days, 9 hours, 39 minutes ago

nurb

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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For the long run - a good (open source) AI for at least one race would be a big boost, it would cut way down on turn time for lazy players if you could make your key moves and then let the comp micro-manage; it would make solo training games easier to get newbs up to speed, etc.

If you could get MIT and Stanford (etc) to battle by creating AI clients that would fight each other annually (at super-blitz speed), with improvements each year (think Cambridge vs Oxford boat races) that would be wonderful. Might get some publicity too. The idea would be that after each contest, the source code becomes open for next year. Other schools could add their improvements and submit their own entries to a knock-out tournament. Just maybe DARPA would have an interest?

Just an idea, one that would probably need a champion at a University Computer Science Department or Google or something, but it's not impossible.

2121 days, 11 hours, 28 minutes ago

streu

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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> If you could get MIT and Stanford (etc) to battle by creating AI clients that would fight each other
> annually (at super-blitz speed), with improvements each year (think Cambridge vs Oxford boat
> races) that would be wonderful. Might get some publicity too. The idea would be that after each
> contest, the source code becomes open for next year. Other schools could add their
> improvements and submit their own entries to a knock-out tournament. Just maybe DARPA
> would have an interest?

Nice joke.

Honestly, VGAP has been around for 20+ years. It has not brought up any single decent AI. All the AIs sucked at logistics, and those who didn't cheat to overcome this limit play awfully bad.

There have been AI-vs-AI competitions, and I even remember somebody announcing a competition of "hey, write an AI, deadline in 6 months, submit them to me, and I'll judge them", but I don't believe he got any entries. And that was for classic VGA Planets, which is a lot easier to code an AI for than this web application (100 turns AI-vs-AI takes about one, two minutes to run locally; how many hours on the web?).

Stefan

2121 days, 10 hours, 47 minutes ago

larry mccarthy

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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We should have a Team game pare 1 Vet as mentor with 1 Rookie learner. Vgap tee shirt to winning team. We could ask for donations for tee shirt. I would buy a Tee shirt too. XXL please lol

2121 days, 9 hours, 42 minutes ago

mjs68508

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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As long as we are stuck with the Aggravation Feed instaed of a well organized Forum, don't expect NU to grow. It promotes anger and hate and does a lot to turn people away.

1. The white on black is an exclusive color pattern. It indicates that those here don't welcome others unless they conform to the way the cool people act.

2. The discontinuance of individual game banter threads with a link at the top of the game page makes in-game communication terse, not promoting friendliness. It takes a lot of words and even pictures to be humorous and disarming against your opponent. The banter boards were great with that. It only takes a few words to write an ugly taunt in the in-game feed. A lot of players probably drop out or don't play another game because of this negative experience.

3. Placing the feed at the side like this does 2 bad things.

a. It appears to be an in-your-face demand that everyone read it. Players don't respond to these threats positively.

b. It makes people fight with shriller and shriller voices to be heard.

The 2 main attractions should be the game and the community. The community is made dysfunctional by this Feed.

The game itself has been mangled by the increasing reasons to manipulate the game for "Site" rewards. The joy of the game is lost.

"I'm in this game for Achievement Points"
"I'm in this game for a Tenacity boost."
"I'm in this game for Campaign resources"
"I'm in this game to broaden my Mercenary score"

With a mangled game and a dysfunctional community, I don't see how we can grow.

2121 days, 9 hours, 31 minutes ago

mighty midget

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Five words:
are you freaking kidding me?

2121 days, 6 hours, 52 minutes ago

mule

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Lots of interesting stuff here.

MJS is right about the "Feed" being "cats in a bag." Even when we want to, it seems we can't avoid those we have friction with. A return to forums would help with that. I remember way back in Prodigy days, a lot of gamers came together and part of the appeal was separation into different interests and attitudes. Some players really got into the role playing and maintained certain forum threads as "Joe's Bar" or "Mouse's Trap" - etc. and built a circle of friends there. What is Facebook but a modernized version of that. So... many of the newbies and old-timers aren't so different in that regard.

Respect: Sometimes a slap proceeds to a kick and then on to a punch and eventually to all out war. So, we should all think twice before we first decide to slap someone down for a perceived error. It can very quickly get beyond the point where either party can back up or take it back. Sometimes just biting our tongue or asking a respectful question and accepting the answer (even when you disagree with it) without getting up on a bigger/better than thou would go a long way.

Along the same track... it's OK to disagree. This isn't some hard core religious organization where to disagree with something becomes heresy or blasphemy. After the 2nd or 3rd time we have all said the same things it's time to say. OK - we disagree. We don't have to keep picking at it like a scab. Nobody always has to get in the last word.

We all lose with this and do nothing to show newbies that this is a place they should want to spend their time. We will either scare them into saying nothing and just leaving or attract only those looking for a verbal fight - as against the game fights most of us like better.

Sure, some people want instant gratification. This is nothing new! We and NU could help grow our community a lot better if we stopped with the "my way or the highway" attitudes. What is wrong with some players wanting fast short games with players dropping out and surrendering when the mood or the circumstances make them decide they want to? Maybe I would usually prefer a different type of game, but that doesn't make my preference better than anyone else's. All I have EVER asked for was a little separation and identification of games so we could all have fun without tripping over someone that wants to play differently. Instead, it sometimes seems in the quest for "game purity" we have marched in the other direction entirely. How many people did tenacity make happy vs the ones we chased away? Is the quest for campaign points and the fixation on keeping all game "pure" so they can be apples-to-apples games really built membership or just kept the old guard coming back? I think less choice can ONLY lead to a smaller pool of players.

2120 days, 0 hours, 19 minutes ago

megalomaniac

RE: I'm surprised at how few users NU has

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Hail,

I do get the sense that many of the players are old timers that took a 10 year break like myself. I distinctly remember running tourneys on the Compuserve PBEM forum back in 1992-1995 and VGAP was probably the most popular game in our forum. I think Empire Deluxe was quite popular as well and remember the initial modem games like Conquered Kindoms were arranged in our forum even though it was actually modem to modem long distance calls in those days. Before any computer versions of Axis and allies, we would have random dice roller and send the 'map' back and forth which was just list of countries and what units were on each territory. I seem to recall life getting busy with children, finishing internal med residency and a real internet developing which kind of forced compuserve to fold into AOL which eventually became a shadow of its former self not worth a fraction of what Time Warner paid for it.

I think role playing your race a bit is fun and keeps some of the newer folks interested. I remember just chancing upon the Nu page earlier this year when thinking about some older games I played (Road War, Road War 2000, Autoduel etc....) and somehow joining a game I didn't even know I joined (my only missed turns, I thought it was a single player practice game I had joined). I decided to find my old disks but couldn't located them and even if I had only one computer still had a 3.5 floppy disk drive but it didn't work. I downloaded the shareware version, found I no longer could located the code and sent Tim W an email. I was expecting to buy the registration code again but he either had me on his list or was nice enough to send one so I could putz around enough to re-learn the game. I even got his famous Amorphous soup recipe to boot!

I have one NU game under the belt with 220 planets and learned how much time this game can take (cardiologists don't exactly have tons of time on their hand generally) but one game at a time is a nice diversion. I still look forward to running into folks that played on Compuserve back in the day with games I was in or running. If so, good to hear from ya again.

Cheers,

MEGALOMANIAC, The Benevolent Despot (Yay to Compuserve, my first foray onto BBS and then the internet)

or MEGALOMANIAC, First of the Borg (when I play Borg)