New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

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2457 days, 0 hours, 13 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Lately I've experienced some intensely disheartening situations where I've worked hard in a game and then players drop out. I'm willing to bet that a majority of committed players agree that this is a serious problem because the game becomes much less fun and more boring as a result. If Nu is going to survive into a new generation of computer gamers (and I sure hope it does), we've got to put a stop to this age-old problem. I'd like to persuade my colleagues and the administrators here of my belief that positive reinforcement will effect positive change more than punitive attempts against dropouts.

Below is the text of an idea I just submitted on the feedback/uservoice forum. If you believe that some sort of positive reinforcement for tenacious players would be an improvement to Nu, I humbly ask that you vote for this proposal.

Many would argue that the single biggest problem with VGA Planets is and always has been dropouts. Nu has somewhat helped this problem by allowing higher-ranking players to join more exclusive games which theoretically should have fewer dropouts; nonetheless even officers' games still have far too many dropouts.

Not to toot my own horn, but over my entire 20-year VGA Planets career, I have never once resigned a game and have never once even missed a turn (except in circumstances where there were transmission problems or miscommunications when this was a pbem game - nonetheless I've never resigned or missed a turn on Nu).

I would love for the minority of players like myself who never resign and rarely miss turns to get a conspicuous and visible reward. Perhaps Nu could even add another bar to the "achievement/experience/destruction" graph. Or perhaps it could be a "tenacity" rating that would reward players who reach such milestones as 500 consecutive turns submitted with no misses, or 5 games complete with no resignations of other games in the meantime.

In the forums, many continually suggest some kind of karma system to punish dropouts. I present my idea as a more positive approach. Those of us who have the balls to continue to play a losing position and who continue to remain committed to making the game as fun as possible for others deserve to be positively and visibly rewarded.

2449 days, 14 hours, 23 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

well, you offered social style of solving the issue, but it just don't work for casual players. And sometimes real life makes an experienced player casual.

It's far better to solve this at the game level though certainly requires development effort.

moreover, through long panets history many nice ideas for the issue we offered and tried.

1) Make more neighbours for each race so dropped out players will be quickly consumed without giving too much advantage to one race. This is done using wrap around maps and wormholes. (both ways makes game more interesting even without drop outs)

2) Use cluster switching -- very promising technique, that was not really tried in planets because of standard data formats limitations. So, when played drops the game, you not just racekill, instead you link another starcluster of the same level (roughly the same game turn and average players level)

2449 days, 7 hours, 45 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I liked the idea and voted for it!

2449 days, 1 hours, 31 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Eliminate the monthly fee, make players pay to join a game.

Once someone has money on the line that they can't get back if they drop, they're not dropping.

2448 days, 22 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Public floggings would work :>

10 Lashes for dropping
20 Lashes for being dropped due to missed turns.

2448 days, 1 hours, 33 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

It's a turn based game. It works best when everyone can play a turn. It works best when a turn is worth playing. Real life is a very real situation for many and there simply will be times where you won't be submitting a turn or a few turns.

The object of the game is to destroy your opponents and not be destroyed. In my view being killed off is no different than a player dropping out - it's all a matter of perspective.

When a player drops everyone else says "boo." But when a player is getting ganged up on or happens to go on holidays or happens to have a bad roll of the dice that player says "boo" and everyone else says, "yay!"

The only way to ensure people won't drop out of games is to have a game where it makes sense to be there until the end. Planets is not that game. Not all eleven players can be there until the end. Christmas is coming and I'll be going away on holidays. Holiday mode ensures I am not credited with missing three turns. But the reality of the situation is I will be missing multiple turns - not much different than dropping out.

But people will say, "too bad, you can't drop. You have to keep playing even while we kick you when you are down." Or go find a replacement. But where is that part of the game? To find a replacement?

Sure people can stick around - but what's the point? The game isn't designed to keep people playing.

So people should come to grips with a question pertaining to the very real facet of the game which is - if the game isn't designed to keep people playing - then why should people keep playing?

2448 days, 1 hours, 15 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

There's Internet pretty much anywhere in the world.

Your turns don't all have to be of perfect quality, and there are things that you can do before you leave town to make the next turns easier - set long waypoints for your ships, set constant tax rates instead of trying to grow populations, set every starbase to build something even if less than ideal, set starbases to max defense, and put everything in a defensive position until you get back. I've done this and spent only 15-20 minutes on a turn and still done well. Then when you get back to fully playing your turns you'll have a lot more money and resources built up and quite often won't have fallen too far behind.

And don't start a new game right before you leave town.

You mention Christmas .... I'd love to have a "Planets holiday" from December 25 to January 1 where host only runs if all turns are submitted. That would relieve some holiday pressure. I might suggest that in another thread and put it on uservoice.

2448 days, 1 hours, 1 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Ok here's the thread for my idea - please go vote on uservoice immediately if you agree!!

http://planets.nu/discussion/give-a-planets-holiday-between-december-25-and-january-1

2447 days, 18 hours, 32 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Hors, man, you're so deep :)
Though, certainly we should not mourn about the droppings when the race is doomed.
But I too often see the situation when a player's morale is broken by an accident, like losing a major ship or a piece of starcluster. In this situation a player still has a chance to win or to find his fortune with other enemy.
Anyway, it's really not productive to punish ppl, they come to get fun, not to get stuck because of the fear for their money or public standings.

Thus... The way to go is still changing the game mechanics, ideally dropped player should just vanish leaving SOME leftovers but not the whole defenseless empire, and his place should be replaced by fresh(not so fresh) player OR the fabric of space should be stitched/connected/shrank with wormholes or something, so we don't have that lifeless space to the next opponent.

2447 days, 12 hours, 49 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Just replying to echoclusterveteran:

A game that is played twice per week, for example, and on turn 50 is not a game that started just before Christmas.

And whether Internet is available pretty much everywhere or not is irrelevant because the issue is does the game have more importance in your life than family that would constitute an effort to treat it as such. My life today is way different than in 1994 when first playing.

There's a reason why we end up growing sick of games like Monopoly and Risk when we're younger. Planets still suffers the same drawback - no matter how people want to phrase it. It is an elimination type of game. So the incentive to stick around is not a mechanism of the game.

Not trying to create an argument, just illustrating that people are different so attributes shouldn't be applied across the board - unless that is a reason and purpose for signing up. Just state - you can never drop out or your fee will be forfeit and you must always play your game regardless of circumstances. Then you would have the core group of players you are looking for.

Or else simply accept that casual players with a high priority on their life - whether that priority is Internet or not is irrelevant - and new gamers are going to drop out - it is inevitable and a very real nature of elimination type games mechanisms.

Anyone who has been keeping up with board-type games over the past few years has realized the better games coming out are not elimination style games but games played until a very definite end and everyone is involved.

Can Planets be restructured in such a similar way?

Perhaps at the end-point where winners and losers are determined go into a second phase where people can opt to stay in to play until one-man-standing and the rest can opt out - no penalties.

But the game would still need to be mechanized such that no matter what the position or standing of the player they are still in it until the pre-determined end condition.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy the game just not all the time. And the times I don't enjoy it fall into two camps - one when there is no point to it, and two, when I have no interest in continuing (mostly spring and summer).

2447 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Nobody should think that a dropout is a bad person or a bad player. There's plenty of room here for casual players who aren't as committed or for players who resign games. There's no reason people should be financially penalized for dropping.

Those of us who don't drop would simply like to be recognized.

We think it's a noble accomplishment to continue playing losing or hopeless positions just to make the game fun for others. Also we would prefer to join games with opponents who are of a similar mindset. Hopefully if some variation of my idea gets implemented, certain new games could have a minimum required tenacity rating for joining.

2447 days, 11 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Without sounding wishy-washy, I like both viewpoints. Echo's idea of a new recognition bar for perseverance makes sense. I would like to know before I commit to a 5 month game just who I'm playing with.
I also hate when players join, then quit before turn 20...but there IS a difference between that and someone who resigns (admits defeat) at turn 50 after giving it their best shot. If NU starts penalizing late quitters, would they just play a 30 second turn? And is that much better than letting them quit, in hopes a serious replacement steps in?
Hors brings up some great points. I remember more than a few Monopoly or Risk games that dragged on way too long. This game can fall into the same trap. One thing I learned from a recent VGAP Rebels Beta game is that I LOVE a time limit! Offer players a choice of the current format where the game continues indefinitely until a player or team gets the needed planet total, or a second format with a turn limit, say 60? Whoever has the most planets at turn 60 wins the contest.
It adds a reason to stick around knowing the end is in sight, and one might gain some achievement points. It also add a "race to the finish line" aspect that changes and adds new strategies.

2447 days, 11 hours, 23 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

>This game can fall into the same trap. One thing I learned from a recent VGAP Rebels Beta game is that I LOVE a time limit! Offer players a choice of the current format where the game continues indefinitely until a player or team gets the needed planet total, or a second format with a turn limit, say 60? Whoever has the most planets at turn 60 wins the contest.

That's completely different topic and the reason for ultra long games is mostly the retarded scoring system we have now.
We should be able to finish any game with the voting available after turn 60, number of votes depends on number of planets, military strength or some other main scoring resource.
It's silly when all the races survived had agreed on quick finishing yet need to move small dots during few weeks to achieve this settlement.
Both Diplomatic Planets and Military STR scorings tend to create long games, while well tested Invasion/Super Invasion/Multi Invasion/Space Birds/Tequila encourage attacking style games which usually do not last over 70 turns.

2447 days, 10 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Not totally off topic. I think a time limit WILL "reduce game dropouts".

2447 days, 9 hours, 26 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Here's my thread about the scoring system...

http://planets.nu/discussion/variety-in-starting-and-victory-conditions

The voting thing also got discussed here:

http://planets.nu/discussion/needed-easy-way-to-give-away-planets

2447 days, 0 hours, 38 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I say keep it simple. Make becoming an officer dependent on not dropping out of games (maybe using ECV's "tenacity" score). In the real life military you sure as hell won't get promoted if you're constantly giving up on things and you shouldn't get promoted here either.

This way officer games will at least be better.

2410 days, 23 hours, 43 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Wow, 61 votes!!!!!!!!

Thanks so much to everybody for voting for my idea. I hope that something like this gets implemented soon. Frankly, I trust Joshua's creative genius enough that I'm certain he can figure out a fair way to positively reward us stubborn, tenacious players.

I'm now 367 turns in on Nu with no misses or resignations and I expect a very special gift for my 500th. (hehe, just kidding - actually I don't care to have a gift so much as to have great games with others who stick with their games no matter what! But I still think that a visible reward would be a great encourager for those of us who lose as many [if not more] games than we win because we stick around until the bitter finish!)

Anyway, I'm updating this thread because I found another uservoice thread for "advanced resigning". http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/2304312-advanced-resigning It was posted in 2011 so probably hasn't had much attention since then.

But I think the idea of "advanced resigning" could amalgamate very well with my idea of rewarding players for staying in. Perhaps it should not count as a resignation if you resign because you have either no starbases or no ships left. If you have no ships or no way to build ships, that's the point at which you are truly dead and 99.44% hopeless to accomplish anything else in that game. At that point a resignation shouldn't count against you.

But if you have a ship or a starbase you should stay in!!!!!!!!!!! I was down to 1 ship in a currently-running game and now I actually have a chance to win! No joke! Stick with it and it will pay off. I'll point a link to that game after it's over so that you folks can see that I'm not lying.

If you haven't yet: Vote! Vote! Vote!

2410 days, 22 hours, 57 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

It's still an elimination style game. The only way to reduce game dropouts is to reduce the element of elimination. All ideas put forward are of the reward-type to reward players who don't drop out. But players who are eliminated are awarded nothing and rewarded nothing. Both scenarios are exactly the same as far as game mechanics go. So the reward system is already discriminatory in nature. And an eliminated player may be eliminated purely by an unfortunate roll of the dice and not by a dominating player or a dominant startegy (Evil Empire immediately beside Privateers, for example) - too bad, so sad, thanks for wasting your time these past five weeks - no reward for you.

As others have pointed out previously - someone who doesn't drop out but only spends 30 seconds doing a turn, if that, has the exact same effect.

Elimination style game with a significant element of luck - especially at the start of the game where not everyone is given a fair shake, not by any means - it can't be guaranteed.

A mindset needs to be evolve to the point that you simply have to deal with dropouts as you would an eliminated race or as you would a player who doesn't give a rat's ass.

Luck of the draw and deal with it.

I don't begrudge anyone when they drop out. It's just a game. Luck of the draw and I deal with it.

2410 days, 20 hours, 25 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Is there any appetite for a bit of altruism?

Have a scan through the joining games for those with recently-dropped open positions, even if they are losers, and just pick one up every now and again. It's not very fun of itself, but I think it does make for more fun for the game community as a whole.

2410 days, 19 hours, 7 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Yea, I like to take over established positions a lot ... mostly because the first 20 turns are my least favorite :P

2410 days, 13 hours, 2 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Sometimes taking over a spot that you know won't win the game can be fun. Less pressure and you can define your own level of success. I took over a Fed position that was losing a war against the Crystals badly. I ended up defeating the Crystal and managed to carve out enough of an empire that I was left alone when the final big 4 fought each other. End result was I managed to squeak out 5th place. In the same game the Colony player had hunkered down to a handful of planets after losing a war and waited until the game began to wind down and he managed to grab enough planets to get 4th place. (1 of the big 4 got crushed in the battle of giants) :>

Finishing 1st is nice and all, but it isn't the only outcome to a good gaming experience. Playing a planets game is about the process, not the destination. If the only reason you play a game is to see your name in 1st place at the end, play a FPS against a computer.

2410 days, 10 hours, 6 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I just removed 3 votes from my own suggestion to punish quitters, and added 3 votes to Ecv´s suggestion. I still think there should be a punishment, but apparantly most people are more in favor of rewarding non-quitters. So lets try that first.

When i finish my next game, i wont join another standard game, but instead i will start a private "Die hard" game, where i only invite players who can sign a charter about fighting to near the bitter end.
But it would me much much better to have such games open to all players with a certain reliability level.

Sure there should also be games for casual players, where there is no tenacity restriction.
The giant melee games already offer that, but there should also be standard casual games.

Minesweep for when you cant sleep,
angry birds when you want some fast paced action,
casual planets games for the casual strategist,
and die hard planets games for the hard core strategists.

@Hors
You say there is no incentive to stay in a game ? Well that is what this proposal should create.
Just because you are served with bad luck, and suffer an early defeat, doesnt mean that you have Nothing to do in your game. Offer your services to your conqueror, as a minor ally or vassal, and you may still survive the game, maybe even improve your rank.

There is however one issue that has to be resolved, before it makes any sense to reward tenacity (or punish quitters): The holiday mode.
As it is now, you can set unlimited holiday mode, and easily avoid dropping.
In many cases its much worse than dropping.
For the casual players who want a fast paced game to end quickly, its a problem, since they can forget about early host runs.
For the die hard players, looking for a balanced epic game, its very disruptive, since the holiday race is very easily exploited by the neigbours.

I will make a new suggestion+thread for this..

dines

2409 days, 11 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I'd like to persuade my colleagues and the administrators here of my belief that positive reinforcement will effect positive change more than punitive attempts against dropouts.   This will never never never work. You just have to base it on past peoples behavior. For being a 20+ problem, I don't understand why a filter haven't been created. You have players with different views/values on games.

For example my Artko game, clever1 player resigned 5th place turn 35ish for no reason posted .
Looking at his profile currently playing:
Priverateers: Rank 1 Turn 73
Solar Fed Rank 2: Turn 73
Crystals Rank 2 : turn 77
Crystals Rank 3: Turn 55
{speaking for him apparently being rank 5 was low to him dropped} OVEREXTENDED

You have other players like Tom Gravey who say I play as long as I'm entertained.

You CAN"T force people to keep play and wouldn't be fun. It's like dating per se dines and ECV are non-smokers and clever1 and Tom Gravey are smokers. Only way to start the game beginning with players that don't drop.   You don't need karma points {not saying its a bad suggestion} or labels in profiles. Just make a friggin "Game Dropout" value for each player. Just base it on the earned achievement score when they are dropped or resign.

ECV and Dines Game Droppout (GD) are ZERO since they don't drop

Let's say Tom Gravey Train has drop games FRED Turn 25 and Barney Turn 30 values:400 & 500
total: 900
clever1: has dropped 6 games for a total of 2400

GD goes down it value by a 100 each month and each Finished Game shaves 100 off

Granted it will take 3-6 months for players real behavior to be reflected but it a start.

Now ECV create a game for people with GD value = 0, and have a little more confidence.
Maybe Dines is a little more forgiving and set GD value for a game at or less 500.

It's not a punishment if clever1 tries to join a game, and gets a message "Sorry can't join this game your Game Drop Value is too high for this game." It's NOT a PUNISHMENT, he earned it.

I just wish Joshua would post on Feb 1st, we will be addressing this everlasting problem by x, y or z.   OR Dungeon Master is the big poo bah, maybe another power of willing is taking a suggestion how he would address this problem.

Thanks for your time, and Josh appreciated all you do.

CHeers

2409 days, 3 hours, 56 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Can games be created (not necessarily all games, just some games) where at turn 30 (example) there could be an evaluation and players could drop out at that point for whatever reason they want. Everything re-evaluated. Those players planets are free for the taking. All defense posts, factories, and mines set to zero, whatever mined simply remains on the surface and no credits or supplies and no starbases and no colonists.

Repeat again at turn 60. No penalties.

Even at turn 28 an advanced poll that asks players if they plan on dropping out at turn 30 (anonymous results). Show results at turn 29 and then turn 30 is no surprise. Could eb something like:

A. I plan on continuing to play no matter how many drop out

B. I plan on continuing to play but only if no one drops out

C. I plan on dropping out, regardless

Or some variation. Results could be advertised as: Currently there are 3 players planning to drop out at turn 30 and 1 player who is on the fence and may also drop out. Should the game continue?

Advertise these style games in advance so people know what it is they are joining. If anything, it could keep the "drop out" players away from the "play at all costs" players. Should be an adequate compromise.

2408 days, 12 hours, 0 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

You've got my +3 votes in this matter.

And rather than create a new thread to ask my question, since it is on topic I'll try to slip it in here. One of my suggestions in a previous thread was to keep track of all games players participate in and publish them on their player profiles so we can see and determine for ourselves what type of players have already signed up for a game. I noticed in the release notes this entry:

http://planets.nu/documentation/release-notes
21/12/2012 - HOST - Updated the host system to store game player history. This will allow all games a player has been in (even if they left the game) to be stored and displayed.

I think this host update essentially does what I was hoping for, but I didn't see the player game history anywhere on their profiles. Am I just not looking in the right place or has this not taken effect yet?

Thanks,
DB

2403 days, 14 hours, 8 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

johnqpublic and ECV gave 2 reasons to pick up dropped positions. Here are some more:

3. You get to pick a game that hasn't had a lot of early drops. It's a roll of the dice when you start a new game.
4. You get to practice a new race.
5. If you lose badly you blame the original player.
6. You can grade previous players opening strategy maybe better than he can. Learn from his mistakes.
7. No frustration waiting for everyone to submit turn 2....3....check....check again...4....arrrgh....
8. You might be jumping into something exciting.
9. You usually play birdmen and often try for an early kill and then abort at last minute. You just can't resist.
10. You only have a window of a couple months and want to feed your addiction a bit.
11. Kamikaze VCR's ?
12. Help a friend ?
13. A grudge ?

2403 days, 14 hours, 0 minutes ago

star72066

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

5. LOL Bluejay

2403 days, 13 hours, 57 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Darth Balls: I think this host update essentially does what I was hoping for, but I didn't see the player game history anywhere on their profiles. Am I just not looking in the right place or has this not taken effect yet?

I read this update as a preparation for what you're after. The host change allows storage of the necessary data, but actual publication of the data requires changing the web site. We'll probably get this in a coming web site upgrade.

RM

2403 days, 11 hours, 56 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Thanks for the reply, Red. That makes sense. Although I am surprised that it didn't already keep a record of that somewhere. If it did it must be too difficult to scan through or something far too technical for me to understand.

Bluejay, I love your list! There are many reasons to join a game with an opening, although I'd caution players about getting in the habit of your reasons 12 and 13. These can adversely affect the experience of all of the other players in the game when used improperly.

I would also add to your list:

14. You want to steal a victory from someone who doesn't deserve it

2403 days, 8 hours, 0 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Regrading hors suggestion:

"Can games be created (not necessarily all games, just some games) where at turn 30 (example) there could be an evaluation and players could drop out at that point for whatever reason they want. Everything re-evaluated. Those players planets are free for the taking. All defense posts, factories, and mines set to zero, whatever mined simply remains on the surface and no credits or supplies and no starbases and no colonists."

+1 from me. Although we can ALL be frustrated by a player who joins, then quits before turn 10, I totally agree with hors (and others) that there are some hard-core fans of Planets (and since I play everyday, I consider myself one) who don't see resigning from a game at turn 30 or 60 a crime punishable by demotions or scarlet letters attached to our profiles.

   I am an avid poker player also, but when I know it's not my night I'm allowed to get up and leave the table without derision. I can't imagine being forced to play all night just so the other players get to compete at a full table. In planets I may not be losing money, but I am losing time, and isn't that comparable?

   In my opinion we should all keep things in perspective. This is a GREAT game, but in the end still a game. Why not find (as hors suggested) some creative ways to make the vacant territories less of a gold mine for the immediate neighbors?

   As a side response to E.C.V., I find myself in agreement with 90% of your comments and ideas and appreciate your threads, so found it interesting that we are at opposing view points when it comes to early game vs late game enjoyment. I find the early game (first 25 turns) a fast, fun race for expansion where I can't wait to see what planets are nearby or who my neighbors will be. The late game can be fun too, but so complex and time consuming that I sometimes get that same feeling in my gut that I used to get in school when that big homework assignment was due, and I just don't want to start it. ;-)

2402 days, 13 hours, 50 minutes ago

star72066

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

If you record each game a player starts with its appropriate finish on the profile when they end it, either by quit or elimination, you will reduce quitting. It's neither a reward nor a punishment, but rather an accurate account of each game started.

If you start slapping 10's and 11's on the game shoppers profiles, you will reduce quitting!!

I know Tom likes to believe that it won't matter, and perhaps not to him or a few others, but it will to most. Then the majority of your quits will only come from players that are convinced they cannot improve their final rankings. (i.e. they are beaten)

It's a simple and easy solution and as I said, why shouldn't EVERY started game, end with a record of the finish??

2402 days, 13 hours, 13 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Star,

   It may come as a surprise, but I'm in total agreement. In fact I don't understand why those results aren't shown.

   If I join a game and play 50 turns, at which point I know the end result (Borg win...what a shocker!) and decide to resign rather than spend 1 hour a day for the next 6 weeks in a boring exercise of mine laying and retreat while the Borg chunnels his cubes here and there, sweeping and destroying on his eventual march to victory, than please feel free to record it. "tom n started game X and resigned in 2nd place at turn 50". That would be an honest assessment, rather than "tom n started game X and resigned in 11th place" which is NOT honest, and is a form of slap on the wrist for resigning. If a player resigns after turn 40, there actual rank should be shown. It may not be a victory, but at least give them their due for a nice try. Quitter that drop earlier should be shown in last place, IMHO.
   Typically long, time consuming games are ended when there is an obvious winner. Not all chess matches end with "checkmate". When the end result is clear, give the victor his due congratulations and move on to the next match.

2402 days, 12 hours, 18 minutes ago

star72066

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

We are in agreement Tom ! The worst of the quitters, both in terms of game balance and integrity, are the shoppers. The Pre-10 quitters that shop planets and dump all games that aren't a bonanza. It seems every game has one or two of these. They wreck balance, as I've been on both sides of the coin, with being lucky or unlucky to be near or not near one of these. It's free and easy territory, not won by conquest.

Currently, only finished games are recorded on the profile, it actually PAYS the profile to shop.

Slap the 11's and 10's onto the shoppers, as it should be, and you'll reduce the number of shoppers, as I think most players take some level of pride in their profile.

When a position is lost later in the game, it's lost. Dump your minefields, position your remaining ships over starbases and set to kill and resign. It's a lot less detrmental to game balance. (Currently these resignations aren't recorded either - They should be also)

2402 days, 12 hours, 10 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I agree with the consensus, and think we could set it up to not penalize someone for picking up a dropped race in turn 30, finding it's a hopeless cause, and dropping the game. Playing those 2 or 3 turns is very different than playing turns 1 and 2 and then dropping. There is only so much a person can tell when looking and ship count and planet count to determine whether to join a game or not. Some situations are salvageable, and others are completely hopeless.

2402 days, 12 hours, 4 minutes ago

star72066

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Darth - I don't think any replacement positions should be recorded unless the player is still playing when the game ends. Not only doesn't this discourage picking up replacement positions, it encourages it, in that you may be able to achieve a risk free win.

So in two strokes, you reduce drop outs, and you increase replacement pick-ups. You have shortened the problem on both ends.

There should be a 1-11 placed according to finish on 11 different profiles for every game that launches here at Nu.

If the Colonial quits on turn 6 - (11)

Rebel quits on turn 15 (10)

Robot eliminated on turn 28 (9)

DM's Borg eliminated by Star's Lizards on turn 30 (8)

and so on...

down to

Lizards win with 255 planets (1)

2402 days, 11 hours, 56 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I agree with you guys. Show Resigned with the info.

On a side note, but related, I think that players in a game should be permitted to vote to end the game. Either give 1 vote per player or give each player 1 vote per planet owned. If over half of the planets vote to end the game, it should end. That could be some easy functionality added to the Diplomacy functionality.

That might discourage some of the late game dropping too. If everyone votes to end a game when it becomes obvious who will win, then you save the losing players the fate of either showing up as a "quitter" or else having to suffer through weeks of tedium playing turns they know won't help them.

2402 days, 10 hours, 13 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

The problem with the "vote to end early" is the winners lose their (rather large) achievement bonus points. I'll put a suggestion into the feedback section and see if it gets some votes, and Joshua's attention. I'll combine the 'Realistic Game Record" idea with the "Vote to End early (without penalty)" idea.

On second thought, I decided to rightfully split up the two ideas. Here's the first one if you want to add a vote:
http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/3558142-show-realistic-game-results-in-profiles

Here's the second one concerning full bonus points for games that all players agree to end early:
http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/3558169-don-t-penalize-the-winner-s-of-a-game-that-all-vo

2402 days, 5 hours, 27 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Well, you would still win, but you don't get to spend the end of the game just running up your score.

2402 days, 4 hours, 14 minutes ago

star72066

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Or... bump the winning race won by vote to the 250 planets for AP's.

2400 days, 16 hours, 45 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

We all know there are many reasons why people drop out. And there will allways be drop outs no matter what. In my mind worst of worst drop outs are those who plays >15 turns and just after they leave they start new game. So my suggestion is after U drop out or been dropped out U get 1-2 weeks suspension 4 starting/joining a new game. If U get eliminated no suspension.

2399 days, 21 hours, 11 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I think you should take a look on this vote which mainly will prevent the drop outs. There is no need for punish/penalize by a system.

http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/3567612-side-supported-reputation-system

And Tom_n. Still looking forward to give you a chance for a revenge match :)

2399 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I totally agree that dropouts are a major problem. i recently joined a game in a replacement position. I refused to ally with anyone given wishing a challenge, but due to some early successes I had against my opponents, within 20 turns all 5 or 6 remaining players have dropped. It seems like most people don't stick around when the game starts going against them. Unfortunately, now, the only bad outcome for them for dropping would be my memory of their drop and motivation to mercilessly pursue them in any future game I may encounter them in, as I refuse to ever ally with anyone who dropped out on me without a good cause. Something needs to be done as it ruins the game. I am a big proponent of some kind of Karma system.

2399 days, 11 hours, 18 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/3380672-find-a-way-to-reward-players-who-do-not-drop-out-o

Vote! Vote! Vote! 91 votes strong right now! The users' voices will be heard!

2399 days, 8 hours, 2 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I do like the idea of rewarding people who stay until the finish.

For team games, I think that if a team member drops, the other two team mates should each receive half of the team member's planets and ships who left. I had a team mate leave and there is no way I can cover their whole territory plus mine now.

Not sure about penalties for dropping. Perhaps you get so many game "credits" as part of your paid membership and once you use a credit to join a game, you don't get it back until the game ends. But you can join a game someone else has dropped without using a credit.

2398 days, 10 hours, 11 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

vepr, I read your story and see it differently. You won the game! Congrats! What's needed in THAT scenario is for NU to recognize that all other players have dropped and automatically reward vepr with 250 planets and full victory credit. Then you move on in search of the next victory. Wouldn't that be fair reward, or do these other 5 or 6 players (who know they're beat) need to be punished if they don't spend hours a week for the next month or 2 until vepr actually reached 250 planets?

2398 days, 7 hours, 25 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I like the idea of listing all games played and the results. If you resign, then you get listed as resigned. People will have an opportunity to not play with you if you resign a lot (unless you are the last person to join a game and then they are stuck with you unless they want to resign)

I also like the idea of giving people a stick 'withitness' or RELIABILITY score. I think we have talked about a score that was negative if you resign you get a higher score. But what about the positive score, where if you never resign or seldom resign you build up your reliability. So games could be created only for those that are ranked: Ultra Reliable; Very Reliable; Reliable; Average or Open (which means everyone).

If you have never resigned you are: Ultra-reliable, reigned/finished games = 5% or less: Very reliable = 10% resigned/finished; Reliable would be 15% resigned/finished; Average = 20% resigned/finished games and open is everything else.

2398 days, 7 hours, 17 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

+1 graves = anything will be an improvement

2398 days, 5 hours, 19 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I think keeping track of games resigned makes sense and really seems logical given that games finished is being tracked.

In vepr's situation, I think an option for all the players to vote for an end of the game would be fair, that way the other players aren't forced to choose between dropping or playing a losing position.

2398 days, 3 hours, 11 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

bacchus,

The option you would like is in place. All players need to agree to concede victory and send a message to Joshua via that game's message board. The problem with that is the winner does not get the bonus multiplier, which amounts to a lot if you are trying to climb up the leaderboard. I added a suggestion that NU awards the winner (in these conceded games) the bonus. That might mean adjusting their planet total up to 200, or 250 if there's an alliance.

2398 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Tom, that would be a great idea. if everyone resigns, just give credit for 250 and end the game. the problem is that as this is a replacement game, you only get a fraction of those APs, much less than if you lasted the full game. but thats not that big of a deal. The APs are not assigned for winning games for the last month anyway, its some kind of bug that is yet to be fixed.

what is a big deal is that usually, not everyone drops. the key players drop making the game dull as you are fighting a bunch of empty planets and ships to reach the planet number, but there is always someone in the corner of the map that persists. so the game potentially becomes very boring but does not end unless that person agrees. what is needed i think is an ability to force a vote to end the game in these situations, and to make it so that people with just a token number of remaining planets don't get a vote. if for example you have less than 10% of the planets of the lead player, you don't get to decide if the game ends. something along those lines.

2398 days, 2 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Wow this is how structural violence gets implemented in the world...

>>if for example you have less than 10% of the planets of the lead player, you don't get to decide if the game ends. something along those lines.<<

So we have a group that wants to punish the poor people that have their heads handed to them and are not having fun and will not continue to dutifully turn in turns for the gratification of the winning players and so drop...

Then we have a group of people that want to take away their vote to continue playing if they are perverse and want to 'soldier on' with less than 10% of the planets of the 'winner' (the powers that be)...

Hilarious! The winners write history and the powerless and weak have no voice and are trampled into the dust. Just like real life. Now I remember why I am a Libtard. :-)

2398 days, 2 hours, 16 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Tom Graves: Thanks for suggesting the term "Reliability score" – that's easier to understand than "Tenacity rating".

I'll also reiterate the idea of rewarding milestones. Who will be the first person with 1000 turns in a row with no misses? Is it humanly possible? If so, then that person should get highlighted as front-page news. How many of you that have been here a while have finished ten games but not resigned any? That's worthy of a reward.

As an analogy, I work in the nonprofit sector and there's a trick that we use – acknowledging a list of donors on organizational publications. Research has shown that lots of donors will say that they don't want to be acknowledged for their generosity; however they are much more likely to give again in the future if they are in fact publicly acknowledged. So those who are good at fundraising will find creative and appropriate ways to acknowledge those who have made things financially possible for the organization. The most generous people are often very humble but the same time they really like to see their name in print. And there's nothing wrong with that! So acknowledging them publicly is a win-win situation for everyone.

Here on Nu, ratings and the leaderboard are very important to many players, and I suspect that those who say that they just play for fun would still like a chance to see their name in lights somewhere if they stick with it consistently, even if they don't win a lot of games.

I've not been on Nu as long as many of you guys. I've been here nine months and am just now one turn away from getting my first win. That's how long it takes, because that's how long games last. It will be at least another year before you see my name in a top ten anywhere, and it will take a lot of perseverance and some luck because so many of you guys are very skilled expert players and difficult opponents.

I look at Vepr's achievement and destruction ratings and I say "holy smokes, this guy is good!!" So if I meet Vepr in a game I know either that I want to be his ally, or I want to stay the hell away or I'll get creamed. I don't have massive amounts of achievement points, but I would like to have something visible on my profile that tells others that no matter how bad things get, I'm sticking it out until the very end whether they like it or not. Even if I don't destroy as many kt's of ships as Vepr, they will not find me to be an easy opponent, because I don't quit. You should think twice before messing with me, and you should not park your SSD on my border waiting for me to leave, because I'm not going to. There is also very good incentive to try to be my ally, because unless I die or am incapacitated or my house burns down, I'll be playing my turns and I'll be communicating. It certainly would benefit me strategically if everyone around me wants to be my ally because of my reliability rating, and then when I choose my ally or allies I would try to pick one who also has a high reliability rating.

So this is why ultimately I believe that a positive approach – a visible reward – is the best solution to this serious problem. 97 votes agree with me right now. Go vote right now and certainly if we break 100, the administration will take action!! We will be heard!

2397 days, 16 hours, 15 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I haven't read this whole long discussion so I apologize if the following was already said.

A reliability score is nice but we also need reliability games then. It doesn't help to see that the actual joining game already includes possible dropper. There will always be one or probably more of them in a game open for all.

2397 days, 15 hours, 48 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

echoclusterveteran:

Its nonsense to reward something when a player not drop the game until the game is finished. As some did understand here already. It s needed that player can search/find/add handpicked player in a new game by a reputation who player give each other after a single game is finished. In a game who is open for all you get nearly ALL time player inside who give up to fast if something goes wrong or boring.

The last 2 games i for example did play with the private conquerst option and mess with player who i already know. In the first step here i would already be happy if our side admin improve the starmap generation (add starclusters, nebulas, native and ressources and so on) a lot. Rewarding or punishing here help never!

2397 days, 15 hours, 11 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Emork >> It doesn't help to see that the actual joining game already includes possible dropper. There will always be one or probably more of them in a game open for all.

Yes it does help! It means that I can look at somebody's profile and see that it's safe for me to be their ally because they are not likely to drop out!!

Let me give a very concrete example of what I'm trying to say. I'll mention no names, but here's a situation I am in right now. I'm currently allied with someone in a game who is ranked very high on the leaderboard (was in 4th place in his race at the time). We had great collaboration until he made one big mistake and our position turned from a great one to a very challenging one. Now he has stopped playing his turns and hasn't responded to a message in three weeks.

Looking closely at his stats, it is safe to conclude that this unnamed party is only playing his winning games and if he screws up he just quits. I looked at the leaderboard and thought that this person would be a terrific ally because he has tons of experience and lots of wins.

Unfortunately, there are people near the top of the leaderboard that earned all their points by wiping out dropouts and spending their time only playing positions where they could actually win. Therefore the leaderboard is absolutely false if we think it's a good measurement of a person's skill. From now on, I don't give a rat's butt how high a player is on the leaderboard because it does not reflect that the person wins or ranks high in proportion to the number of games they play. How about a leaderboard that reflected ratio of games won to games started? Such a leaderboard would look quite different.

The leaderboard actually reflects very little about a person's skill and I've learned this lesson the hard way.

2397 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Hi Veteran,

that's a terrible bad behaviour of your former ally and he shouldn't complain if you write down his name. In contrary a lot of other players would be thankful if you do.

Insertion: I have to admit that I also have left a game as score leader ONCE but this was in a totally hopeless situation: Me as Rebel against Pirate&Colonies (assisted by Robots, Crystals and Borg) and with the anti-cloaking races Lizards/Feds/Klingons being dead or silent. Of course I discussed my decision extensively with my Bird ally and also with the other players.

I agree that for this purpose a reliability score is useful. Somewhere in the API-thread I read that Joshua implemented something to store drops in the player record. I think it would be very good to show these drops in the players profile "dropped in turn x in place y".
But this doesn't help much for new games. For me an enemy dropper is nearly as harmful for a game as a friendly dropper.

2397 days, 13 hours, 55 minutes ago

star72066

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Becareful on what you wish for ! If you start recording mere drops, without consideration of all factors involved, your signing on to holiday mode for countless positions. Which does nothing but delay the host for the rest of the players.

If a position is lost and a player resigns, I have no issues with that. Record his finish on the profile and move on.

Just record the games accurately and you will have resolved most of the problem. I know this from yesteryear as I played off a website that recorded everyones finishes and displayed them for all to see. Nobody quit these games, everyone fought for every extra position in a games rankings because it meant something. Start dropping 10's and 11's on a player profile, and you will end planet shoppers or expose them for all to see.

IMHO - All drops aren't equal. A player who "drops" on turn 10 is way different than a player who "resigns" on turn 88. Group them together and your signing on to Holiday Mode in every game played.

2397 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Dont reinvent the wheel.

The solution was developed 14 years ago...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.test/a6xFQTQCKDA/yqNz3m2STg8J

2397 days, 13 hours, 9 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

This is slightly off topic, but bear with me, as it is related to the drop out issue.

I recently finished my last two games. By the end as we all know, games get very huge and turns become time consuming. So now, here is my predicament.

Within 3 - 4 months, i anticipate my life to become busy enough with additional work and family responsibilities that I will not be able to play a fully developed game.

So, I would like to play for about 3 months. At this point, the two available options are, join a brand new game, which in three months will be at that huge barely manageable stage and suck up a lot of time, or join an opened game, which may or may not end in 3 months and right away will likely require a lot of time investment. both of those options are not good, so i will probably not play for about 6 months until everything settles itself. The other option is to join a game and then risk dropping, which is a big sin on this site and is unfair to the game, both to your allies and enemies.

I am expecting the business, so I can plan, but real life can come up and all of a sudden you can find yourself with too much to process in the game and still have a life, so people drop.

i think dropouts could be reduced if there was an option for a much smaller game, perhaps with 200 planets total that would be infinitely more manageable. (i know there are private games that are smaller, but they dont contribute any achievemtn points and are a pain to set up).

I know this further dilutes the pure VGAP we all know and love, but I would like to see some of these smaller games be introduced, ones where even a fully developed turn doesnt require hours.

V

2397 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Having taken over one of Vepr's games (and being extraordinarily grateful for the opportunity to do so) – I need to inject a tiny thing that I have left unsaid ...

Soliciting a replacement needs to be handled very differently than just dropping out. There's a way to do this – one of the sites I used to play on had as an option that could could submit a request to the host and it would automatically solicit a replacement for you. Edit: you had to actually stay in and keep playing the game until the replacement showed up for it not to count against you.

P.S. Dines: that's freaking awesome that you found that from RCC. I haven't thought about that in years. Indeed - we don't need to re-invent the wheel.

2397 days, 11 hours, 29 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Just a reminder, The link below has gotten 10 votes fairly quickly, and I'm hoping more will get Joshua's attention. Although dines' site is very well thought out and comprehensive, will it get added here? To help EC (and others) not get suck with a bad ally, which can be like a Bad Dream, we need to have profiles reflect reality. Add a vote!

http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/3558142-show-realistic-game-results-in-profiles

Vepr, You probably know about these beta games several of us have been playing, but if not, here's the link:

http://planets.nu/discussion/nu-micro-planet-beta-two-2

Planets.nu has Vanilla, Campaign, and Melee games. I would love to see a 4th option called "Micro Games". These would have less planets, less ships (15 per race currently), and a set END DATE (currently 60 turns, but I campaigned for 50). If the game went 5x week until turn 20, then 3x week until end, game is over in less than 2 months! The turns are quick, and I have really enjoyed the action as well as a whole new set of tactics involved.

2397 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Until this all is adressed here's the link to Big Beefers DIE HARD games which fulfill our needs and since short also give achievements:

http://planets.nu/discussion/now-recruiting-for-die-hard-2

2397 days, 8 hours, 57 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Emork,

I wanted to let you know that I won the game you spoke of in part to defend your honor. I don't think that people who abuse the spirit of the game should prosper, and I stepped into this mess and stole the victory right out from under the Colonies while he wasn't paying attention.

http://planets.nu/games/34764

Darth Balls

2397 days, 8 hours, 46 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Darth Balls, I had a look.

The original Pirate/Colo-alliance with Neil and Sants had reached 250 planets and the victory countdown startet in turn 118. Then Neil missed three turn and was dropped, you stepped in as Pirate and got the victory together with Colonist Sants in turn 128. This doesn't fit all to what you were writing. Maybe you got my description wrong, I was the Rebel in this game. Anyway, another subject - not for this thread.

2390 days, 16 hours, 49 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Sweet!! Now we have a way to see the truth about a player's skill.

My friends, this person is one whom you do NOT want as your ally, in spite of the fact that this person is very high on the leaderboard.

2390 days, 16 hours, 38 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

And here is the person that you do want as your ally, and not just because he is the Emperor:

The best players rarely resign and succeed more often than not.

And look at this superb record .... this guy is a consummate expert with no resignations. These are the people I want to play with!!!

2390 days, 16 hours, 16 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

my... this is an epocal change

2390 days, 14 hours, 32 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Well, this is a great start, although I propose 'peeking in' on a game to see if one wants to join as a replacement should not show up here. If I join turn 32 and resign turn 32, that ought not give me "resign". It will discourage looking at replacement games. My profile also shows a Crystal "joined turn 1 resigned turn 1" where I am currently playing and have been for months. I'm sure this was do to a glitch with my profile a while ago, which got deleted by accident.

2390 days, 13 hours, 5 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

There are still tears running down my cheeks as I write this because that's how excited I am about the new update. This is a fantastic start. Tom, I agree with you and my original recommendation was to not have the game show up in this list if a person only peeked in for 3 or 4 turns and didn't commit because it was already an awful situation, but I don't even think I would hold that against a person if it stays in this list because at least they were trying to join a game and help out. It's the first player that echoclusterveteran mentioned that I'd want to stay away from.

Thank you Joshua. Now maybe we can find out who the real gosus are and who is just pretending. :)

2390 days, 12 hours, 56 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

By the way, I started a new thread, not to hijack E.C.'s excellent one, but to hopefully get the word out about this new & important change. I hope the title "new Profile Display" will catch the interest of members who may not have been following this thread.

http://planets.nu/discussion/response-to-the-new-profile-display

2387 days, 2 hours, 35 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Awesome new update that will help with identify shopper/droppers.

2347 days, 2 hours, 26 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I'm bumping this thread again. This is the single largest response to a uservoice proposal that we have ever experienced. Great job, guys!

Above, 1011010011 expressed hope that this would be addressed by February 1. Near the Ides of March, we are still waiting.

Please vote if you have not. Now!!

http://planets.uservoice.com/forums/136520-general/suggestions/3380672-find-a-way-to-reward-players-who-do-not-drop-out-o

Honestly, I don't typically feel a sense of entitlement, even if I pay for something. However, 124 votes should count for something. This means at least 42 unique players want this to happen — likely many more, since not everyone puts three votes.

The users demand an answer.

Is this proposal under review? Declined? Under construction?

It is time for us to know if the single most severe problem plaguing Planets Nu will be addressed or is being addressed. We are tired of fighting dead planets with zombie ships flying around. We are weary of allies finking out on us because they are losing. We are bored with many of our games because it is not fun to go conquer empty space. It is time to stop the delay and acknowledge that the users' voices have at least been heard, because the users' opinions have been expressed loudly and passionately.

All we can do is vote. I'm here to stay, but I have a great fear that others may start voting not only on uservoice, but also with their pocketbooks. This community needs to grow and not shrink.

2347 days, 0 hours, 14 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Seriously?

People are still hounding on this?

I totally get the discussion about game dropouts. Absolutely, if no one ever dropped out of a game then fantastic. Dean O says "Give 'Er!"

But the game is an elimination style game. Who does not get that?

Who does not get what the concept of elimination entails?

Who is jealous because someone gets an advantage because someone else's opponent is eliminated before their closest opponent giving them an edge. Why does elimination mean staying until I grind you into dust? As soon as someone leaves they are up for elimination. Case closed!

If that is not the desired outcome then the aspects of why people drop out need to be addressed. Nothing in this discussion addresses the reason why people drop out.

Ooo I am getting a bad mark against me! Like I care! Just play the game.

How long would this community have to evolve before that actually meant something?

People play this game for one reason and one reason only - it is worth their time. That's it!

Predominantly if it is not fun it is not worth someone's time. So the actual problem with the game is that at some point it is not fun for some people.

Why attract people to the game if they, eventually, feel it isn't going to be any fun?

So you can say, "Let me wipe you out while you waste your time and it will be fun - I promise you. Or, at least, it will be fun next time, or maybe the time after that, or maybe the time after that, or who cares, I got to crush you and that's all that counts and it was fun for me."

I can read posts - same as anyone else. I can check profiles - same as anyone else. There are those who have attributed my remarks on these forums pages as someone who has dropped out on games. Wrong assumption. I have not. Go check for yourself (there's only two of them on this community - but why would you assume my behavior is any different on any other community? That's a failing of your thought process.)

This game is an elimination style game. It will become boring, tireless, useless, time-wasting-ad-nauseum for some - so why dwell on it?

Some people even claim to have secured the spoils of victory from the ashes of defeat while signing on as a replacement player. That argument is, actually, more in favor of encouraging people to drop out than to discourage people from dropping out.

Some people claim to be victorious no matter their circumstances. Well, logic dictates that if you put 11 undefeated players together in a game to play until victory there will be ten losers in the group where there never was one before. A meaningless analogy, anecdote, statistic. So what? Everyone wins. Everyone loses. It's a game! So what?

The game needs to be restructured so that folks can drop out without anyone else getting their knickers in a knot. If it's not fun it's not fun - plain and simple. Why do you care if someone finds a game - that you particularly admire - to be not fun, boring, and a waste of time? Different frames-of-mind. So what?

Is that a reflection of you or of that player that doesn't give a rat's ass? Don't define yourself based on someone else's acceptance or disapproval of your thought process. It's not personal. Who cares?

Some state they are bored with many of their games because it is not fun to go conquer empty space. Why is anyone's definition of boredom anymore valid than anyone else's definition of boredom? It speaks to one's own state-of-mind. Boredom is boredom. Is it a sense of duty to carry on when the game is not fun and boring? (note those are not my words).

Either state that people can never drop out of games no matter what - never, ever, and replacement player opportunities be damned, or it states go ahead and drop out and either someone will take up the challenge as a replacement player or they won't. And if they won't, well it's a valid mechanic of the game - same as having a favorable native race and native temperature and native government and mineral resource a scant 25 LY away. Same as having a plethora of favorable "random happenstance" versus an unlikely chance of "random suckiness to the extreme."

Look inside yourself and recognize that your words of not fun and boring" are reflective of anyone else playing. Exactly the same "no fun and boring." Recognize that other's assessment of "boring and not fun" are not the same as your own assessment. Recognize that you are not the boss and they are not the boss. Recognize that the game can be fun and interesting at times and can be boring and not fun other times. The game mechanics allow for aspects of boring and not fun. Until that changes, no amount of posturing will ever change that.

My suggestion is to keep the algorithms but allow for the game mechanics to re-set in some way, shape, or fashion that would eliminate the animosity that exists against people who don't wish to waste their time on a game mechanism that calls for time wasting activities on into the future with no predictive end date or time.

Simply put - allow for different games to keep opposing different players life-priority-assessments away from each other. Everyone plays for fun and interest. that's it! Why else play the game if not for fun and interest?

On a similar note - I have had to eliminate myself from a private game because I have zero time to play. A young family; my wife and I both working; and time is definitely at a premium (I can write this because of Daylight Savings), but I can't play anymore - zero time for recreational computer activities. That's my life. Those are my priorities.

When you see my name stay clear. I won't drop out but I certainly am not going to give a rat's ass one way or the other. If that means you signed up for a game before I did and then I sign up guess you better drop out and get a dreaded "naughty finger waving" your way - because I'm not going to give a rat's ass who signed up. I'm simply going to play the game when I think I have the time to play it (even though I can't predict the future and acknowledge no one can predict the future - ie. predict one's availability for ever and ever on into the future).

2346 days, 23 hours, 52 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Wow; that was well and lengthily said hors. I get it, I understand it, and I grok it. I originally planned to respond to ECV when I got a chance but this reply triggered my response a bit earlier than I expected.

ECV, while I don't think the solution has been 100% achieved, I felt we achieved a major victory over droppers when the play.planets.nu profiles began tracking drops/resignations. During the initial stages of diplomatic negotiations in new games I have seriously considered a players' prior history in choosing my course of action. Have you not done the same? Recently I found myself nestled snugly between two players with rather fickle in-game histories and do you know what I did? I pressed one with a little classic grade-school trash-talking while simultaneously sending a handful of capital ships after him. I got lucky with a well-placed ion storm, and he promptly withdrew as expected. I didn't waste my time negotiating a non-aggression border or future that I knew was unlikely to exist because his track-record showed he wasn't likely to be around past the first 20 turns or so. The transparency of showing added/dropped games I have found to be a good start at resolving the problem.

Meanwhile I get what hors is saying in that we will have a really difficult time convincing players who aren't having a good time playing the game to stick around and play the game when they aren't having fun. We've got to find a good balance between playability/fun/not-wasting-peoples-time and I think we've gotten loads closer to this than we were when this thread was started. The only beef I still have is that I see people dropping 9 games for every 1 they finish when they're still allowed to play 8 or 10 games at a time (or whatever the actual number is). I don't like the idea that a person can start 10 games and drop all but the 1 they're doing well in after the first 10 turns. It sours gameplay for everyone else. But again, it's just my two cents.

Cheers,

DB

2346 days, 23 hours, 49 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I agree with DB

2346 days, 21 hours, 23 minutes ago

echoclusterveteran

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Really good and thoughtful answer, Hors, thanks. And you are right that the display of the joining resigning (if you know where to find it) is very helpful. It still doesn't address the original thought, however. And if you notice, I think it's only fair that we get some kind of answer to whether something that so many of us want will be considered! Boldface type is a venting of some in-game frustration that is not being satisfied by blowing up dead people's ships. I think there's a way to partially solve this and there's a lot of people who agree, so I'd like to know whether it's even being considered.

2346 days, 17 hours, 9 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

it looks as if many players drop in the early midgame, so identifying the critical game stage and spicing up the fun there could maybe result in less drop-outs.

2346 days, 14 hours, 23 minutes ago

emork the lizard king

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I grok both Hor's and Echoclusterveteran's arguments. This is possible because they speak of two different things. Please distiguish three types of drops or this discussion will never come to a satisfiying end.

Drop Typ A: Drop because of unpredictable RL reasons. No problem. A "good bye"-message would be polite.

Drop Typ B: Drop because the game is no more fun. Typical reason is that the player feels he will inevitably lose. This behaviour is no problem in my opinion. Nevertheless, it would be nice if one doesn't drop immidiatly when the war begins but try to wreck some havoc before quiting.

Drop Typ C: Drop because of giving a damn about other players. These are very early drops or even mid-game drops without in-game or RL reasons. These people should be punished with let's say 10 whippings. My current example and the reason why I won't play open-for-all games here anymore:

3/10/2013 11:15:59 AM Turn 24 chivo has resigned from The Fascist Empire.
2/14/2013 5:50:32 PM Turn 12 littleholger has resigned from The Evil Empire.
2/13/2013 4:45:14 PM Turn 10 eridani leader has been dropped from The Solar Federation after missing three turns.
2/4/2013 7:08:48 PM Turn 2 saarlodri has resigned from The Rebel Confederation.

I had to add that I never heared a Klingon ship exploding. There wasn't a "good bye, I'm sorry but ..." message from any of these players. Not even after asking them politly about the reasons and pointing out that such drops destroy games. This is a sign of bad upbringing and I don't like to share a community with persons acting like this.

2346 days, 13 hours, 39 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

It would be nice to have a "goodbye message" displayed in the games history. A single line allowing a short explanation of why you leave the game.

2346 days, 13 hours, 22 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Hi emork,

Here's your chance at a Rebel Micro Game:

http://planets.nu/games/59060

180 planet map. 15 ships max per Rebel. No allies. First 15 turns at one per day, then 3x week. Game ends at turn 50. Most planets wins!

Looking for 6 more ( serious ) players.

regards, tom n

PS EC, I heard that Joshua is away on business and has a "To Do List" to address as soon as he returns, which should be pretty soon.

2344 days, 15 hours, 24 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Does anyone know how to find the Leaderboard on the play.planets.nu site? As a player has suddenly dropped out of one of my games (the guy is easily in first place at turn 37 with 100 ships) leaving a huge "grab bag" in the universe. As I've seen him do this before, I'm curious to see his true record of starts vs drops.

I am in agreement with emork that there are 3 types of droppers, but this irks me. He should at least make an attempt to find a replacement if RL got busy & if he just wants to finish games where he has a chance to win, well this one is probably a 'winner' for him.

2344 days, 6 hours, 26 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

Just a shameless plug: If anyone is looking for a game where the players commit to not dropping before they join, the DIE HARD game series was started for just that reason. The current one still needs 4 players and is recruiting here:

http://planets.nu/discussion/now-recruiting-for-die-hard-3

2344 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes ago

RE: New idea to try to reduce game dropouts

I may take a look as my Micro Game seems to be struggling to find interest. By the way, I figured out how to see an members' true profile. If anyone's interested in a players record of dropping vs finishing just type the following into your web browsers' address bar:

play.planets.nu/#/xxx where "xxx" is the players username or handle.

Although I agree with much of what hors said in his post, I also get frustrated by chronic quitters that join too many games and tend to vanish before turn 50. My hope is they discover a PC game like Civilization where their constant restarts don't affect 10 other players. If finishing a full game is almost impossible for them, maybe they're playing the wrong game?